Silly_Girl Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 People arguing as to who is more important or on par in an A! By your own description, the MM is lying, deceiving, pretending to be in an M that he isn't valuing, living a life of meaningless and hollow actions and words. Such a broken and/or selfish and dishonest person is really not capable of bestowing importance or status to either the W or the OW. Maybe pre-A he was someone worth building a life with, maybe he will be again, but his actions during an A really aren't worth enough to have any woman take her status from him. Even with respect to who MM thinks is most important at the time, he is living a life of lies and deceit, so it is not very meaningful. Any OW or BW who can move on with honor and integrity, with or without fMM/fWH, has more than enough status and importance, just in their own integrity. I think this is very skewed. I don't believe that someone who refuses to show respect to one relationship cannot show respect to another. It also depends on who has earnt that respect and who has not. Link to post Share on other sites
Silly_Girl Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I know that my views are quite different from anyone elses. There's me and a few others who feel the same way about the importance of the OW when we were cheated on. Link to post Share on other sites
Silly_Girl Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Then why did he cry and beg and plead with you instead of run directly to this paragon of womanhood? A little poetic licence here I think. Link to post Share on other sites
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Then why did he cry and beg and plead with you instead of run directly to this paragon of womanhood? Because he's like 90% (my own arbitrary number) of people and was terrified when he got caught. He realized he screwed up and he wanted to have his family back. He wanted to not be the bad guy. He wanted me to forgive and stay quiet and make everything go back to how it was. He never stopped loving me but he also loved her. He was in shock and he wanted an easy life. Link to post Share on other sites
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 No, you didn't. The OP did. I'm not sure if this is some sort of slam here but this was made in reference to someone else making a comment looking like it was me who started the whole M v A thing was and in all honesty I don't think it was the OP. I believe it may have bnb. Link to post Share on other sites
woinlove Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I think this is very skewed. I don't believe that someone who refuses to show respect to one relationship cannot show respect to another. It also depends on who has earnt that respect and who has not. I don't think people have to earn the right to not be cheated on. Even those who have cheated themselves. To me, it is really more showing respect for oneself and, consequently, not treating others that way. I place a lot of value in openness and honesty between partners and I do think people could likely make more suitable arrangements if they were open and honest, although they might still lose their M. As to showing respect to one part of the triangle and not the other, I just don't see a lot of respect in the dishonest part for anyone. If the situation is such that the A can be carried out in an open way, with the dishonesty segregated - say perhaps if the MP and AP are in a different country than the BS - it might be different. I've been in that situation and I was still aware the MM was deceiving his BW about us, so it still involved me at some level. In other cases, the AP has to be a partner to the coverup, perhaps by not phoning or dropping in unexpectedly at the MP's home, not expecting to meet parts of MP's circle, maybe even avoiding certain places/people altogether. Double betrayal, when the AP interacts with the BS, takes all this a big step further. Link to post Share on other sites
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I think this is very skewed. I don't believe that someone who refuses to show respect to one relationship cannot show respect to another. It also depends on who has earnt that respect and who has not. Well said. Link to post Share on other sites
bitrcytqxm Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 it is sound well i assume it can be unchanging better if someone desire cause changes. those are great games i in perpetuity play to save nonsense you can stay this also îùç÷é øùú áàáì èøàáì 2 | áàáì èøàáì 2 | îùç÷é áøáé Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I'm not sure if this is some sort of slam here but this was made in reference to someone else making a comment looking like it was me who started the whole M v A thing was and in all honesty I don't think it was the OP. I believe it may have bnb. I was merely agreeing that you didn't start that debate. How is that a slam? And I believe the OP was the one who claimed the AP was in a better position. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I don't think people have to earn the right to not be cheated on. Even those who have cheated themselves. To me, it is really more showing respect for oneself and, consequently, not treating others that way. I place a lot of value in openness and honesty between partners and I do think people could likely make more suitable arrangements if they were open and honest, although they might still lose their M. As to showing respect to one part of the triangle and not the other, I just don't see a lot of respect in the dishonest part for anyone. If the situation is such that the A can be carried out in an open way, with the dishonesty segregated - say perhaps if the MP and AP are in a different country than the BS - it might be different. I've been in that situation and I was still aware the MM was deceiving his BW about us, so it still involved me at some level. In other cases, the AP has to be a partner to the coverup, perhaps by not phoning or dropping in unexpectedly at the MP's home, not expecting to meet parts of MP's circle, maybe even avoiding certain places/people altogether. Double betrayal, when the AP interacts with the BS, takes all this a big step further. Better post! Link to post Share on other sites
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I was merely agreeing that you didn't start that debate. How is that a slam? And I believe the OP was the one who claimed the AP was in a better position. That's why I said I wasn't sure if it was. Sometimes sarcasm goes right over my head! Sorry. Ok point taken OP did say that. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Because he's like 90% (my own arbitrary number) of people and was terrified when he got caught. He realized he screwed up and he wanted to have his family back. He wanted to not be the bad guy. He wanted me to forgive and stay quiet and make everything go back to how it was. He never stopped loving me but he also loved her. He was in shock and he wanted an easy life. So they must be together now. Link to post Share on other sites
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 So they must be together now. Yup for about 20 years now and from what I know they've been very happy and he hasn't stepped out on her at all. He is a good man and we were in a bad place and he made a bad decision. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Yup for about 20 years now and from what I know they've been very happy and he hasn't stepped out on her at all. He is a good man and we were in a bad place and he made a bad decision. So she was better - for him. Not better period. Do you think it would have been easier to take if he had come to you and said he wasn't't happy in the R and ended it without the sneaking and lying? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Jessica, another thought. Two years ago I'd never have thought I'd be the OW... Amen sister!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 If I didn't have a kid, I would have had no prob nexting him. I believe this to be a majority reason why BS stay. IMO, it's the ONLY valid acceptable reason for a BS to stay. So many criticize the WS for staying for the same reason, but isn't a valid point on either side?? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Hi Jessica. Unfortunately I have experience being the BS. I was with my exH for only two years (married 1) before he got caught cheating - I'd never seen him with another woman, but I know that he was communicating (at the VERY least) with one, and (she told me) he told her how he only married me because of our baby (who was 6mos old when we got married and NO ONE held a shotgun to him to make him do it- he actually asked me to marry him... go figure) Coming home late, lying about where he'd been. Yeah- he was cheating even if I didn't have "visual" proof. I didn't actually "stay," I think I made his life a holy hell until he had to leave. I got IC because I was feeling very low and couldn't understand why he would do it. I thought we were good, we were having sex regularly, we didn't have many fights (usu about finances...) Turns out it (his cheating) didn't really have anything to do with me and what I was or wasn't giving him (as some BS most likely think and are told by WS) He just wasn't ready to be married and in a monogamous relationship. Once I got myself together, and looked like I didn't care whether he lived or died, of course he wanted to come back- he loved me, he missed his family, he wanted to try again. I let him come back, and we both decided after 6 months that it wasn't working. He wasn't happy. I wasn't happy either, but I think I would have stayed if he hadn't said anything about it. So we ended it. I don't know why I think I would have stayed. There was a part of me that wanted to be in a marriage- all of my siblings were married; I was the only one at the holiday and birthday parties without a SO... I guess I jumped at the opp to get married. I had been a single parent for more than 6 years and I wanted companionship, I wanted love in my life. Maybe some BS have that desire- they don't want to be alone so they keep the appearance of the M, knowing it isn't what it should be, but unwilling to accept being alone. I think you can continue to get different answers from everyone with this discussion. I know I am glad I didn't draw my M out any longer than it was- I think I wouldn't like the person that I would have become had I stayed in the M knowing that he wasn't happy and he was cheating. As for staying (BECOMING!!) an OW- I don't know how that happened. But I'm working on being an xOW (fist in the air!) You're a strong woman....for trying to make your marriage work. I applaud you. Thank you for sharing!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 And LinD has a good point about the first time vs continued deception. I do think you would have to draw the line in order to respect yourself. This is the struggle in my mind. I try to understand my MM's wife. I've never been married, because I have to be 110% sure. My parents have been married 40+ years. I've seen what marriage is. It isn't all good. Hell, a lot of the time it isn't good. But you commit yourself, you have a family, you stick to those vows IMO. Betrayal is an entirely different animal in itself. I think (can only speculate) that because of the vows I would have made, I would forgive once, try my hardest to forgive, and work hard to make the marriage better. But twice?? Three times?? Ummm NO!! How could I live with myself, how could I think my husband would have any respect for me if I didn't have respect for myself? How could I expect my kids to have respect for me?? Link to post Share on other sites
fooled once Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I've seen three toxic marriages stay together after cheating. None of them stayed together for good reasons. The first because of family pressure (you just don't divorce the woman you married!!) Mother waded in and put the guilt trip on him horrifically and he left his OW - TWO YEARS AGO. He regrets it to this day and has photos of his former OW in his wallet and on his desk at work. His wife - the BS - only wants him around for his paycheque and makes no bones about it. Not to mention the whole 'I may not want him but sure as hell no one else is going to take him from me'. It's sheer pride, ego and vanity on her part... and he now lacks the courage or motivation to get out. He's taken to drinking as well and spends more time in an apartment in the city than the 'family home'. The second refuses to admit that he could have been played for a fool by his wife who suffers from NPD and likes a long-distance marriage so that she can milk the cash cow while doing whatever she wants with whoever she wants in another city. That is a trainwreck and a half. I think that he has seriously low selfesteem and that his wife has manipulated him to within an inch of his life to the point where he doesn't know his ass from his elbow. I pity him but none are so blind as those who will not see. He loves the woman that he always hoped and dreamed that she was rather than who she really is... and he refuses to see the truth because that would mean admitting that he has been completely played. The last one stays for the kids and financial reasons but I can see it coming to an end at some point. They barely talk to each other and when they do they fight. Both of them are starting to voice the opinion that two happy homes are far better for children than one very unhappy home. They have a good point (even though that is probably very unpopular on the forum). I was that child the parents stayed together and I HATED IT. We are no where near as stupid and blind to the slurs and uncomfortable silences our parents endure. I remember being 5 and being embarassed to ask a friend around because I was worried that she would see how my mummy and daddy didn't kiss or seem happy. So anyone thinking that kids don't know... you're fooling yourself. But that's another story! Sorry for rambling! How sad for all the people in these relationships. How sad that people don't want better for themselves or who are too scared to do anything. How sad that people accept such crappy treatment and disrespect. I will never understand not living life - I don't get why people just go through the emotions. Its not like we get a 'do over' after we are dead! Regarding what I bolded in the 2nd to last paragraph - I will never ever advocate 2 parents staying together and being miserable. It is ALWAYS better, IMHO, to show children 2 happy homes rather than 1 'nuclear' family full of tension, misery, hate, etc. No child should have to suffer because of the crappy decisions parents make. I knew without a doubt there was no way I was going to stay married to my son's father "just because'. Nope. Wanted to show him what a marriage was and what love was (love for a spouse). He thrived after we divorced and when I remarried, he and my now H have their own special relationship that is between them. I am very happy my son has such a great step dad and a wonderful role model in him and he gets to see what a happy marriage is So to all the people who stay in un-happy marriages "for the sake of the children", you're doing NO ONE a favor. . totally Agree!! I agree As and Ms aren't the same level. As a BS my xH should have done everything to protect me and our life. He didn't. Things got tough and I made things a little tougher and he headed for someone who would put the pieces together for him. I confronted him and that was the end. I held it to a standard wehre I wouldn't tolerate someone making a mockery of what I held in such regard. He didn't see the importance of the M until he was caught and backed into a corner. The only time I thought of him as pathetic was when he was caught and I was ending it and he was crying trying convince me how sorry he was. He'd taken it and mangled it and spat on it and trampled on it and then expecte me to want to believe he could look then show it the respect it deserved? Nope. Wasn't going to happen. As an OW I thought the same exact thing about xMM. I thought it was horrible the way he was doing what he was doing but just like my xH I understood why. I never expected him to leave his M for me. He always said he wouldn't and I never asked him to. An A to me is a lot like a courtship and you never really know how it's going to go. It has some significance but only as much as a courtship would. I can't see how anyone can thing an A can compete with a M but I can't understand how anyone could stay in a M where it's been tarnished by an A either. I'm writing this at work so hoping it makes a little sense. Having to rush far too much! How sad for you While in your situation with your now xH, I understand that you don't believe a marriage can be reconciled. But in Owl and Spark and Seren's situation, I can totally see how their marriages were reconciled. Depends on personal belief's, what is 'non-negotiable' and truly if you can forgive. If you can't, then there isn't any reason to continue a marriage. If you can, and both people put the necessary work in, good for them. I definitely don't agree with people who cheat because marriage gets hard or tries to blame the spouse for their cheating. That's a pathetic excuse and doesn't show any respect or ownership for their actions. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh my my my yes. Similar stuff there but not the same. The wife gets to share a life, a family, friends, money and a home with her husband. What exactly is it the ow gets that makes her stay after the married man has rejected her twice by not leaving after his wife found out twice? Goodness me. His wife found out twice and instead of saying I love my sweet red big red lipped girlfriend and I am leaving you for her he begs pleads cries and basically kisses his wifes big fat patootie to stay with her and makes all nice with her. Why do you carry on after this rejection? What are you getting out of this relationship? What do you enjoy about being the third person peering into his life and his marriage? If he did not leave twice he is not leaving so why stay? His wife probly thinks you are just a fleeting fun little diversion for him and she is the real thing. Run, red lips run he's not leaving. Ok, so let me get this straight....I've been rejected by MM twice?? I'm sorry, but I'm not the one he made a vow to. He's been faced with consequences multiple times now, and he chooses to ignore the threats of leaving from his wife. I feel SO rejected. FYI, he has told his wife he loves his "big fat red lipped girlfriend". And, I just bet his wife doesn't view me as a "fun little diversion" at this point. Link to post Share on other sites
fooled once Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 This is the struggle in my mind. I try to understand my MM's wife. I've never been married, because I have to be 110% sure. My parents have been married 40+ years. I've seen what marriage is. It isn't all good. Hell, a lot of the time it isn't good. But you commit yourself, you have a family, you stick to those vows IMO. Betrayal is an entirely different animal in itself. I think (can only speculate) that because of the vows I would have made, I would forgive once, try my hardest to forgive, and work hard to make the marriage better. But twice?? Three times?? Ummm NO!! How could I live with myself, how could I think my husband would have any respect for me if I didn't have respect for myself? How could I expect my kids to have respect for me?? How can you be 110% sure? And of course not all of marriage is good. People have struggles, tension, stress, etc. Not sure if you have had other role modes, but I can say without a doubt, of my last 13+ years of marriage, we have had many things come up but instead of running away or cheating. I have also been divorced (not due to infidelity) and my son was 6 when we split. Yes, I said vows, but due to alcoholism and physical abuse, I decided to end the marriage - for me and for my son. Why in the world would I subject my son to that? As for respect, how can any child have respect for a cheater? How can any family members have respect for someone who cheats time and time again? I find it hard to believe any spouse would willingly continue to stay married to a habitual cheater. Then again, we don't know how the cheater reacts to a d day. We have seen on here so many times how the cheater begs and begs and says how he didn't love the OW, it was only about sex, she wouldn't leave him alone, etc. Rarely does a cheater own their actions, make amends and then cheats again. Someone who does that have no self respect, IMHO. I always find it 'interesting' how women won't forgive a cheater, but many times have no problems being a mistress I guess I can't wrap my head around that. You feel disrespected and lose trust from your spouse cheating, but then you (general you) head out and have an affair - which is based on lies, disrespect and no trust. You (general you) can't fathom forgiving someone for cheating, yet when involved with a MM, you willingly and 'happily' accept that he goes home to his wife and has sex (I know, I know -- he says he doesn't) and plans his future/vacation/holidays with her. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Ok, so let me get this straight....I've been rejected by MM twice?? I'm sorry, but I'm not the one he made a vow to. He's been faced with consequences multiple times now, and he chooses to ignore the threats of leaving from his wife. I feel SO rejected. FYI, he has told his wife he loves his "big fat red lipped girlfriend". And, I just bet his wife doesn't view me as a "fun little diversion" at this point. So, basically, he isn't willing to leave his W for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Why do OW stay when they know the MM isn't leaving? Why do OW stay when the MM minimizes the affair to the wife? Why do OW stay when the MM tells his wife he isn't having an affair? You can go around and around; but a marriage is totally different than an affair. Heck, OW stay OW when they know the MM goes home to the wife every night! The OW knows the MM is married, KNOWS he has a family and goes on vacation, etc with his wife and yet the OW still stays! What does that say? Why do you stay? Why do you continue to be the OW? Ditto I think my situation is a bit different. I literally spend up to 18 hours a day with my MM. We work together, and when we're not at work, we're together or talk on the phone literally all day and night long. My MM may go to a home that is different from my address, but he's with me nonstop. I have literally heard his kids refer to "mommy's room" and seen pictures of daddy's air mattress (that mother in law bought him!) in the living room. He gets home from work at 7:30, by 8:30 or 9:00pm, he's calling me. He may be married to someone else, but I'm not the OW. Link to post Share on other sites
fooled once Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 And, I just bet his wife doesn't view me as a "fun little diversion" at this point. But she obviously don't view you as a threat either since he hasn't left. No one truly has any idea what is going on in their home except them. You can hear 2nd hand "his" version, but that doesn't make it accurate. If you are happy being the OW, which I guess you are since you stay, then it doesn't matter what his wife thinks or doesn't think. You have decided to stay after x amount of ddays. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jessica232 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Some of them know they have no other options. The A makes them realise how desirable the MM is, and that he has options. The mirror makes them realise they don't. So they reckon it's better to stay with the desirable man they have than to live the rest of their lives discarded and alone. Whoa I think this is kinda harsh, but I can see how an affair would effect one's self esteem. Damn. Link to post Share on other sites
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