How can a nice guy learn to be a bad boy?

[Feelsgoodman]

I don't believe any normal woman would want to be treated badly. But they do like a man who is exciting, takes risks, lives on the edge, is not predictable, and maybe has a danger factor to him.

I agree with this. However, it should be noted that men who "like to live dangerously" almost invariably treat women as disposable. That's because they live for the adrenaline rush and are only interested in females to the extent they can provide such a rush (which usually doesn't last very long). For such men, relationships and family are an unwelcome burden.

[betterdeal]

They are talking about the fact that desirable women prefer bad boys (to be clear, less desirable women also prefer bad boys, but they typically don't even bother chasing them because they know their chances are slim).

 

Desirable to whom and why? It's a completely subjective term. If the common factor is they don't fancy him, and he fancies them, it's probably a case of wanting what he can't have and therefore a nil sum game. Once the forbidden fruit is permitted it's just an apple.

 

Or could it be he's just ignoring malnourished, blotchy, rabid, ferile, skanky crack whores, meth and smack-heads to come up with this remarkable correlation between physical prettiness and propensity to go for bad boys?

 

And who are these bad boys anyway? What, exactly, are they doing that's bad? Are they kicking puppies for a living?

[Taramere]

Yes example #1 guy is a bit of a flake himself.

 

But not the case with example #2 guy. I don't get on with flaky people well and would never have married him if he was a flake.

 

Aha...I was so focused on flaky guy 1 (who reminds me of a couple of ex boyfriends) that I didn't pay enough attention to Bad Boy type 2 - aka your H.

 

The other seems cocky because he enjoys absurd humor. He will either make you laugh your ass off because you get that he is kidding or make you think he is a jerk because you don't get that he is kidding. He is smart as hell and can strike up a conversation with anyone. His communication skills are very good. In the past, sometimes his honesty would make some of the girls he dated mad because his honest answers were not what they wanted to hear.

 

Which isn't bad at all, unless you don't get the jokes and want harsher facts to be sugar coated (which, admittedly, is probably welcomed by most people when they're at their most vulnerable). Bad Boy 2 maybe isn't always sensitive to other people's needs or moods. On the other hand, life itself isn't always sensitive to our needs and moods. A bit of exposure to the less sensitive approach helps to keep us in the condition we need to be in to manage the harsher realities of life, I think.

[sally4sara]

This post needs more context. What kind of women are these men attracting? It's pretty easy to be a ladies men if you are content with bedding average, nothing special (appearance-wise) chicks. All you need is to be decent looking and sociable.

 

Attracting women that are universally considered hot is a totally different matter, however. And this is what men usually speak of when they say that women like bad boys. They are talking about the fact that desirable women prefer bad boys (to be clear, less desirable women also prefer bad boys, but they typically don't even bother chasing them because they know their chances are slim).

 

Guy #1 gets a mixed bag as far as my opinion of what is desirable and attractive goes. He likes women with bigger behinds than I find attractive, but not fat and yes they are often quite pretty. I did date him briefly and I ended things with him upon finding him a bit flaky and lacking in the communication department. He is still a good friend though. He and another friend are coming into town to stay with my husband and I for a week and go up to NY for a big concert on Governor's Island this weekend. Last time he came to visit he hooked up with a very stunning girl we know who, admittedly, is a bit of a bag of crazy.

 

I've never been called ugly and most people tell me I'm quite attractive. Never been turned down when I've asked a guy out and I married the second fella.

[sally4sara]

Bad Boy 2 maybe isn't always sensitive to other people's needs or moods. On the other hand, life itself isn't always sensitive to our needs and moods. A bit of exposure to the less sensitive approach helps to keep us in the condition we need to be in to manage the harsher realities of life, I think.

 

Nailed. The humor is his armor. After he trusts you, you get to find out he is much more sensitive than anyone would guess. But yeah, we've both had a pretty hard road in life and don't need the sugarcoating others expect. There is that whole compatibility deal in a nut shell!

[Feelsgoodman]

Desirable to whom and why? It's a completely subjective term.

Completely subjective my ass. You know exactly what I'm talking about. There are women out there that would be considered hot by at least 95% of the male population (sure, they may not appeal to the odd chubby chaser or granny lover, but such men are outliers). They are the ones that have nearly universal appeal.

 

Subjectivity only comes into play when you're talking about average women. That's when some men may be okay with a girl being slightly overweight provided she has a cute face, while others would not date her because her legs are too thick.

[betterdeal]

Completely subjective my ass. You know exactly what I'm talking about. There are women out there that would be considered hot by at least 95% of the male population (sure, they may not appeal to the odd chubby chaser or granny lover, but such men are outliers). They are the ones that have nearly universal appeal.

 

Ah, so you mean pretty, as opposed to desirable. I know plenty of normal guys who don't find pretty party girls desirable, and have quite a dislike of them. Of all the women who attend on bad boys, some of them are pretty, and they are only some of the pretty girls. There's plenty of ugly girls attracted to bad boys too (see my previous post) but you filter them out because you're not interested in them. That's fine, your call.

 

If you find them pretty bad girls particularly more attractive than, say, the Jennifer Aniston's of this world, that's your forbidden fruit factor right there.

[KathyM]

I agree with this. However, it should be noted that men who "like to live dangerously" almost invariably treat women as disposable. That's because they live for the adrenaline rush and are only interested in females to the extent they can provide such a rush (which usually doesn't last very long). For such men, relationships and family are an unwelcome burden.

That may be true for some men--that they are addicted to the rush and are not prone to be in monogamous relationships. But I know a lot of men who have extreme hobbies, interests or occupations, but are happily married, stable, nice men. I have three sons, ranging in age from 20 to 26. The oldest is happily married and monogamous. They are normal, nice guys, sweet, sensitive, but they also like extreme sports. Mountain climbing (and I'm talking steep mountains with ropes), surfing, skateboarding, lots of sports. One is getting a motorcycle, and the other two want to (but I'm trying to discourage it, since we live in LA and it's too dangerous around here for that). One is studying to be an FBI agent. They like excitement, but they would never dream of mistreating a woman. Their girlfriends/wives think of them as nice guys. They just have exciting interests/occupations.

[Taramere]

That may be true for some men--that they are addicted to the rush and are not prone to be in monogamous relationships. But I know a lot of men who have extreme hobbies, interests or occupations, but are happily married, stable, nice men. I have three sons, ranging in age from 20 to 26. The oldest is happily married and monogamous. They are normal, nice guys, sweet, sensitive, but they also like extreme sports. Mountain climbing (and I'm talking steep mountains with ropes), surfing, skateboarding, lots of sports. One is getting a motorcycle, and the other two want to (but I'm trying to discourage it, since we live in LA and it's too dangerous around here for that). One is studying to be an FBI agent. They like excitement, but they would never dream of mistreating a woman. Their girlfriends/wives think of them as nice guys. They just have exciting interests/occupations.

 

I've participated in some fairly dangerous sports in the past (eg eventing, ski-ing, diving and whitewater rafting). I don't see how anybody can participate in these sports regularly without having undergone some training and guidance....and I've never encountered somebody has high level experience in those activities and takes a cavalier attitude towards other people.

 

Those activities are an adrenalin rush, but they're a lot more than just that. They require participants to stay focused in the face of dodgy situations, and in spite of the adrenalin rushing through them. They also encourage you to take other people's safety and wellbeing very seriously. I know that some young guys take an irresponsible atttude to those sports and are in it for the adrenalin rush only...but they often end up dead, and only the very young/idiotic would participate in any high risk activity with them.

 

Case in point, my brother's best friend from childhood died in an avalanche at a young age. I loved the guy to bits. Everybody did. He didn't take life seriously at all, and was tremendous fun as a result - but I suppose that made him the epitome of an irresponsible bad boy...and irresponsible bad boys don't tend to do well in high risk lifestyles unless they're extremely lucky time and time again. If it hadn't been the avalanche, it would likely have been a vehicle crash. When I was in my early teens I used to love going on the back of this guy's motorbike. Looking back, it was absolutely terrifying and I was very lucky not to end up getting killed, because he showed very little regard for either his own life or mine.

 

A 43 year old man who had that irresponsible, "life's cheap and people are disposable" attitude, and involved himself in adrenalin rush activities would just be pathetic. He'd get roasted by the instructor/guide in any extreme sports he tried out. Doubly roasted for being an immature old fool who should know better.

[GoodOnPaper]

A lot of frustrated men are probably A-types who can't comprehend why these B-types are so popular with women. They see the B-types always scraping by through life and often falling on their feet because they rely on natural talent rather than effort. Meantime they, the A-types, are working hard, following the rules and perhaps not getting the results they hoped for from doing all that.

 

At least for me, this hits the nail on the head. It's particularly frustrating when I see posts about a woman's concern over her prospective SO's low education level and/or job prospects. I have a PhD and guaranteed lifelong employment that also happens to be my career passion . . . yet it's all completely disconnected from whatever women find attractive because I'm not a skydiver, biker, cop, personal trainer, or secret agent . . .

 

A 43 year old man who had that irresponsible, "life's cheap and people are disposable" attitude, and involved himself in adrenalin rush activities would just be pathetic. He'd get roasted by the instructor/guide in any extreme sports he tried out. Doubly roasted for being an immature old fool who should know better.

 

But then we're back to the stable guys having to wait until mid-life before women they might find attractive show them any attention. These guys have to be able to have a better future than that . . .

[sally4sara]

Completely subjective my ass. You know exactly what I'm talking about. There are women out there that would be considered hot by at least 95% of the male population (sure, they may not appeal to the odd chubby chaser or granny lover, but such men are outliers). They are the ones that have nearly universal appeal.

 

Subjectivity only comes into play when you're talking about average women. That's when some men may be okay with a girl being slightly overweight provided she has a cute face, while others would not date her because her legs are too thick.

 

I think you're being a bit judgmental and much of what you say implies you judge a woman's value only on appearance and how much admiration being with them will get you from other men. The happiest people I know don't spend much time worrying about what others think and build associations with people over many different factors rather than just "who will think I'm cool for knowing this person?".

 

Bad boy #3! Always into extreme sports - big wave surfing, half pike and trick skateboarding, mountain biking and plays on a bike polo team. VERY committed to his wife and they are very rarely seen out socializing without each other. He is attractive, got the whole height thing going for him at 6'3" and because he is a bartender at a very popular place, women are constantly throwing themselves at him. But he is faithful as an old dog is to its master and loves his wife to pieces. They are our favorite couple to hang with when we go out and all around good people.

My own husband also loves the same sports except for the surfing thing (he didn't grow up in an ocean town like #3 did) and doesn't play on the team but does enjoy the other past times.

 

I'm sure you have met guys who treated women poorly and were into adrenaline sports but it doesn't mean the two go hand in hand and I'm not sure what thinking this way gets you in life. Try to not write people off and slap a label so fast and you might find yourself pleasantly surprised once in a while. All you've done here is prove the point I'm trying to make that quite a few of the so called "bad boys" are regular people you just don't know well.

[sally4sara]

At least for me, this hits the nail on the head. It's particularly frustrating when I see posts about a woman's concern over her prospective SO's low education level and/or job prospects. I have a PhD and guaranteed lifelong employment that also happens to be my career passion . . . yet it's all completely disconnected from whatever women find attractive because I'm not a skydiver, biker, cop, personal trainer, or secret agent . . .

 

The other day I got a few drinks with some of the ladies I work with. When it was my turn to buy a round I went up to the bar and asked one of the two bartenders for the drinks. While she was getting the drinks ready I took note of the guy bartender and a girl alone at the end of the bar. They both had their faces glued to their phones, oblivious to anything else. These two could be perfect for each other but they will never find out unless they put down the electronic devise and interact with who is right there in front of them. They could both be someone who comes on here and laments over not finding the right person but it wouldn't be because men or women don't respond to the people who possess the qualities they say they are looking for. It will be because they don't really look and expect what they want to fall in their laps.

[April72]

Bad Boys get CO-dependant women. Good luck.

[KathyM]

I've participated in some fairly dangerous sports in the past (eg eventing, ski-ing, diving and whitewater rafting). I don't see how anybody can participate in these sports regularly without having undergone some training and guidance....and I've never encountered somebody has high level experience in those activities and takes a cavalier attitude towards other people.

 

Those activities are an adrenalin rush, but they're a lot more than just that. They require participants to stay focused in the face of dodgy situations, and in spite of the adrenalin rushing through them. They also encourage you to take other people's safety and wellbeing very seriously. I know that some young guys take an irresponsible atttude to those sports and are in it for the adrenalin rush only...but they often end up dead, and only the very young/idiotic would participate in any high risk activity with them.

 

Case in point, my brother's best friend from childhood died in an avalanche at a young age. I loved the guy to bits. Everybody did. He didn't take life seriously at all, and was tremendous fun as a result - but I suppose that made him the epitome of an irresponsible bad boy...and irresponsible bad boys don't tend to do well in high risk lifestyles unless they're extremely lucky time and time again. If it hadn't been the avalanche, it would likely have been a vehicle crash. When I was in my early teens I used to love going on the back of this guy's motorbike. Looking back, it was absolutely terrifying and I was very lucky not to end up getting killed, because he showed very little regard for either his own life or mine.

 

A 43 year old man who had that irresponsible, "life's cheap and people are disposable" attitude, and involved himself in adrenalin rush activities would just be pathetic. He'd get roasted by the instructor/guide in any extreme sports he tried out. Doubly roasted for being an immature old fool who should know better.

Well, I wouldn't agree with you about the part where only the young or idiotic would participate in extreme sports. My husband used to do ski jumping when he was young, and pole vaulting. He also did hang gliding. We both rode motorcycles and did both downhill skiing and cross country skiing. Now that we are middle aged, we still like to go skiing. So do our sons. We're planning to go on a cross country motorcycle trip. We're planning a vacation next month to go white water rafting. Some of our middle aged friends and relatives also like motorcycling, flying a plane, mountain climbing, etc. You just have to be careful, focused, and trained. We all value life and are not careless or irresponsible. We just believe in taking some calculated risks and enjoy some exciting or fun hobbies.

[SteveC80]

This post needs more context. What kind of women are these men attracting? It's pretty easy to be a ladies men if you are content with bedding average, nothing special (appearance-wise) chicks. All you need is to be decent looking and sociable.

 

Attracting women that are universally considered hot is a totally different matter, however. And this is what men usually speak of when they say that women like bad boys. They are talking about the fact that desirable women prefer bad boys (to be clear, less desirable women also prefer bad boys, but they typically don't even bother chasing them because they know their chances are slim).

 

Youre overblowing the bad boy thing, Women like "hot" Men and hot men can get away with being a jerk or bad boy more then the average guy.. and the women who usually get with them are hot women

 

It's because of thier looks and status hot women get with these hot men not becasue theyre "bad boys"

 

Do you think a average or ugly "bad boy" would turn a really hot women on? no chance

[Taramere]

At least for me, this hits the nail on the head. It's particularly frustrating when I see posts about a woman's concern over her prospective SO's low education level and/or job prospects. I have a PhD and guaranteed lifelong employment that also happens to be my career passion . . . yet it's all completely disconnected from whatever women find attractive because I'm not a skydiver, biker, cop, personal trainer, or secret agent . . .

 

The fact that women often find men who are involved in outdoor pursuits attractive doesn't automatically mean that they find you unattractive. Speaking as a woman, I have clicked more often with men on those activities than I have clicked with men in, say, nightclubs or bars or other environments that I don't particularly enjoy.

 

It's not that the men participating in those activities are "better" or more attractive than the men who don't participate in them. Speaking personally, when I am in an environment where I feel happy and alive, that makes me more conducive to clicking with a man who is also in that environment. It doesn't need to be an extreme sport.

 

I personally believe most people are at their most vibrant and attractive when they're outdoors...rather than in some nightclub or, dare I say it, in the library where the intellect is being engaged on such a high level that you lose some connection with the physical senses.

 

As you're very cerebral, you probably need an environment that will stimulate both the intellect and the senses. For instance, art galleries or natural history museums. In those settings you're more likely to bump into like-minded women who will be receptive to conversation openers. There's plenty of reasons to start talking to a total stranger in those environments.

 

But then we're back to the stable guys having to wait until mid-life before women they might find attractive show them any attention. These guys have to be able to have a better future than that . . .

 

But there are millions of men out there who aren't sky-divers, secret agents, cops or bikers who are with women who find them attractive.

 

I think what men have to appreciate is that women, like men, have fantasies about people who are outside of the norm. Those fantasies don't mean they're incapable of being attracted to everyday men. Consider the amount of men who look at porn, and fantasise about the girls in those porn magazines and films. Does the fact that they fantasise about those women mean that they're incapable of being attracted to regular women?

 

Maybe in some cases it does, if they've become addicted to porn...but I think most are capable of both looking at porn and feeling attracted to regular real life women. Some women accept that. Others can't, and continually feel "less than" porn women..because their self worth is dictated by the extent to which they can be a fantasy figure. Which most people just aren't (and those who are remote fantasy figures often aren't terribly happy deep down.

 

Well, I wouldn't agree with you about the part where only the young or idiotic would participate in extreme sports.

 

That's taking what I said out of context. I said that only the young or idiotic would participate in extreme or dangerous sports with people who had an irresponsible attitude to those sports. It doesn't mean they won't participate in those sports with guides or trainers who have proper regard for safety and briefing measures.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Taramere

[Zaphod B]

You made the assertion with no supporting evidence and then tried to close down any counter argument by saying that anyone who disagrees must be in denial, and your assertion didn't seem to be the main point of your post (which was about how to become a bad boy, I think), so I didn't see any need to go in to detail. I must be one of those people who you say are in denial, but I'd like to think that I'm a nice guy who isn't finishing last.

 

Lots of people finish last, or lower down the order than they would like. I don't think it's being "nice" that is the cause.

 

Nice guys finishing last is a fairly common theme on this forum - it's been debated before many times - so I apologise for giving you the abridged form of my view on it.

 

Ok, point taken and yeah, no doubt it is a common topic so I don't blame someone for getting fed up with having to counter the argument. But I did think I had kind of supported the argument with the example of animals.

[Zaphod B]

Anyway, you have your answer - you gave it in your opening and subsequent posts. It's about evolution and survival of the fittest. So you know what it takes to appeal to these women you fancy, so go and do whatever it is you know they want you to do, to be.

 

What's stopping you?

 

I thought I had kind of covered that. The problem is I find it hard to be that sort of a person, because I just feel guilty if I do. It kind of grates against my personality. But if I can find some ways to move towards the "bad boy" persona and remain true to myself, then I might be better off. Some handy suggestions have been made on this thread.

 

What caused me to start this thread was my frustration over a woman I have dated who cancelled a date on me an hour before hand. Based on the circumstances I figured she was just another woman who thought I was too nice so not for her, or was was playing me. However she has come back and said she wants to meet for a drink so maybe she is genuine. She wanted me to text her. I decided no, I won't contact her for a couple of days just to avoid giving her the impression that I am too keen or too readily available. I can do that, because I'm am now very weary about her and worried she may be a game player. It's still hard though, because I want her to know that I want her but I don't want to give all the power over to her.

[sally4sara]

I thought I had kind of covered that. The problem is I find it hard to be that sort of a person, because I just feel guilty if I do. It kind of grates against my personality. But if I can find some ways to move towards the "bad boy" persona and remain true to myself, then I might be better off. Some handy suggestions have been made on this thread.

 

What caused me to start this thread was my frustration over a woman I have dated who cancelled a date on me an hour before hand. Based on the circumstances I figured she was just another woman who thought I was too nice so not for her, or was was playing me. However she has come back and said she wants to meet for a drink so maybe she is genuine. She wanted me to text her. I decided no, I won't contact her for a couple of days just to avoid giving her the impression that I am too keen or too readily available. I can do that, because I'm am now very weary about her and worried she may be a game player. It's still hard though, because I want her to know that I want her but I don't want to give all the power over to her.

 

I get it. Flaky people are frustrating because some of them are fun to be around when you finally nail down some time with them. Try to understand that not everyone is going to be your "kind" of person. They might not be all bad but in the end something could not come off the way you want it with anyone really. A date, a job interview or temp position, even a family member might end up being someone you don't have the kind of relationship with that you wanted. It makes it easier to not get angry at a whole group of people and begin to treat them shabby.

 

I'm pretty sure the girl you're talking about knows you are interested in her. You have been trying to get some time from her so she knows. No need to wait on her though. She will either get back to you or be one of those people who you don't get on with. In the meantime you should still be trying to meet people and be social like before you even noticed her.

[Zaphod B]

If you want to be single, have some fun, put on the "game" and land some tail, do it...just don't lead on any women and thus make more "messed up" females who don't trust men.

 

I wouldn't want to do that. I am not able to lie or manipulate just to get sex, I could not feel good about that.

 

If you want to find that LTR though, you need to think way more than just looks.

 

Don't worry, I'm well aware of that and I am looking at more than just physical beauty. A beautiful woman is nothing without a personality and she needs to be intelligent so that I can have meaninful conversations with her. That one woman had the lot. But she's not the only beautiful woman who has taken an interest in me for more than just sex. That doesn't mean I have become bigheaded, just know that I am worth more than what I thought.

 

So you got into a short thing with a hot girl, it doesn't mean you should only chase hot girls and not average ones.

 

There are many women around. If I see one that I think is more beautiful than the other, of course I will approach her first. Why wouldn't I? The difference now is that I have more confidence when approaching the hot ones and know that I have a chance with them now, whereas before I would have looked at them, thought, "hell no, she's way out of my league", approached her anyway, been all fingers and thumbs and turned her off because I didn't show enough confidence.

 

Look where you're at now. How has raising the bar made your dating any better? If all you see of the "hot girls" is they want bad boys, jerks, or "upper echelon" men...then you either have to focus on becoming an "upper echelon" man, or rethink your selection criteria.

 

I didn't intentionally raise the bar. Nor can I just lower it at will. It is where it is and I can't see how to lower it and really don't see why I should anyway. There is no rush to find that special someone anyway. Just because a woman is beautiful does not make her someone who I should avoid if I want a serious relationship. Sure, I can talk to average women and do, but I will always approach the ones I see as most attractive first. It would seem silly to me to go first for the ones I see as less attractive. Ultimately looks has nothing to do with compatibility, so an average looking woman is not necessarily going to be more compatible than a beautiful woman. So why not approach the more attractive ones first?

 

Like I tell the women, it applies to the men too. Selection standards are only good if you can attain such a person. If none of those people are looking your way, then you set the bar too high.

 

But the thing is I am gaining more attention from these women now and I want to build on that success further and don't want to be friendzoned just because I'm a nice guy. It is my opinion that even the nice women, the beauties that do want to meet a decent guy they can settle down with, are still attracted to bad boys, even though they may not intend to be. I don't think that necessarily makes them shallow, nor do I think it makes them scatty, silly or that they are women I should avoid, nor do I think it means they would not make good partners.

[Zaphod B]

The key point is unless the person is willing to die alone, they should not set the bar too high...period. If Zaphod B is constantly getting rejected by all the "hot" women he's chasing, then he's got three choices:

 

1. Lower the bar and chase "average" looking women

I've been doing that all my life, but I know I can do better than average.

 

Choose to remain alone until Ms Perfect comes along, even if she never does

 

I know I will never find Miss Perfect, but there is no rush at this point. I have time.

 

1. Widen the distance he will go to get a hot woman

Kind of doing that too and having more success. But all I want to do is find some techniques to avoid being freindzoned and avoid the "you're a nice guy but not for me" crap.

 

We are a world of average people, but everyone keeps pining for a minority of the populace they've put on pedestals. Men and women.

 

I appreciate where you're going with this, but I have been the type of guy who has always been negative and because of that have settled for average in my life, thinking I can't do any better. I am trying to break this pattern. You seem to be telling me I should settle for mediocrity. I'm not prepared to do that.

[Zaphod B]

I see quite a few a guys believing any other guy who has a woman's attention is bad boy or a jerk. There was a thread recently titled something like "becoming angry over getting ignored by women". His examples all included him not bothering to put in any effort when a woman would respond to him and it seemed other men were automatically jerks simply because a woman was interacting with them and not the OP even if they did nothing jerky in the example. One guy was a "douche" just for having an ipad.

 

Two male friends of mine. Neither are GQ models. One makes just enough to get by on and the other was the same until the last two years but still doesn't make a lot of money. One owns a beater car and the other a common car. They do not do the wine and dine. One is 5'9" and the other is 5'11". These two are commonly thought to be players or "bad boys" despite not being bad guys at all simply because they are very successful at getting attention from women and yes getting laid pretty much anytime they want.

The 5'9" one doesn't deceive anyone and he doesn't omit his intent. He has no real intent other than enjoying a woman's company and body and making sure she enjoys herself too. He both does and doesn't want a relationship mostly because he doesn't think of himself as relationship material. He has crap communication skills when it comes to emotion and feelings and prefers to express himself physically. If the woman picks up on this quickly, she views their interactions as a short lived fling and he is cool with that. If a woman doesn't pick up on his communication issues, she might want a relationship and he is cool with that even though he believes she will eventually realize his handicap and move on - they usually do after a year or so but it never ends messy. He has no intent to harm and I have never seen his interactions with women turn awful or become dramatic. If you know him well, you know he has a rather low opinion of his own worth and its a bit of a self fulfilling prophesy.

 

The other seems cocky because he enjoys absurd humor. He will either make you laugh your ass off because you get that he is kidding or make you think he is a jerk because you don't get that he is kidding. He is smart as hell and can strike up a conversation with anyone. His communication skills are very good. In the past, sometimes his honesty would make some of the girls he dated mad because his honest answers were not what they wanted to hear. But because he was honest they never stayed mad long, realizing it just boiled down to incompatibility rather than any mistreatment. That's life; we won't be able to have the relationship we want with everyone we find attractive. He has usually been able to maintain a respectful and sincere friendship in these instances and has a very large circle of long standing platonic friends because of this.

 

Most people will and do write these two off as "bad boys" because if seems less and less people want to take the time to know others before slapping a label on them.

 

What they both have in common:

Neither think of women as too promiscuous or in terms of "good girls" and "bad girls".

They treat women pretty much the same way they would treat their guy friends. They don't try to impress them, just try to get to know them and have fun. Being around women without always aiming to get in their pants and without kissing their ass in hopes to one day get in their pants. It keeps women guessing about your intent and builds sexual tension without landing you in the friendzone. A guy's best bet is to not seem overly interested in a woman's physical form because women are quite use to seeing men react in a very obvious "I want to have sex with you" manner to the way they look. The guys that stand out are the ones that don't act this way because they don't give the typical response. As a woman I am quite use to men pouring it on thick when they are attracted in the hopes of getting laid. And I'm quite aware that the level of interest they display is an unsustainable, unrealistic level of attention. If you pour it on thick right out of the gate there is nowhere to go after that but down hill and that always leads to someone being disappointed.

 

Yes, I followed that thread and I think I even posted on it. Thanks for your comments. This thread was mainly started as a result of a woman I dated who cancelled a date an hour before and I was pissed off thinking she was just playing games with me. It could be she is and is not sincere. We met through a friend of a friend a month ago and we danced. She is stunning. Drop dead gorgeous and many other guys in the bar were watching her as we danced. I decided to be bold and make the moves on her, which I would never normally do. She responded positively and we were soon making out. I was in the zone and I invited her back to my place afterwards. Realised as soon as I did that I had made a big mistake. Or at least thought I had. She seemed keen, but her friend talked her out of it that night. I thought I’d blown it and beat myself up about it because I really liked her and considered her a keeper.

 

Then hello last weekend she rings me out of the blue and wants to get together. This time around I decided to be the nice guy, the gentleman that I usually am. And so I was and never laid a hand on her. Then I asked her out again and she said yes, but then she cancelled. It had me frustrated thinking that hell, if I’d been less of a nice guy that may not have happened. So then I wrote this thread.

 

Now she has come back saying she wants to meet for a drink, so I don’t know. So like now it’s what approached do I take? I have not got back to her about the drink and think I should delay it for a couple of days just to not appear too keen. Hard to know the best route to take. I don't want to be too keen and too available like I have been in the past. I want to lean in the opposite direction a little, but not too far.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zaphod B

[carhill]

If you otherwise enjoyed her company and don't have other pressing plans, IMO nothing wrong with a casual meeting for drinks. Look at it this way....the worst that could happen is you'll be out with a lovely CIS woman and can look around and enjoy the view. You never know what might happen. Of course, she could cancel again. Then, move on to plan B. There's always another potential.

 

Why not get back to her today and set it up for Friday night?

 

TBH, I'm kinda glad she canceled on coming to your house with her daughter, if I'm remembering the dynamic right. Easier for you to be your bad boy self with her alone and out on the town.

[Zaphod B]

I get it. Flaky people are frustrating because some of them are fun to be around when you finally nail down some time with them. Try to understand that not everyone is going to be your "kind" of person. They might not be all bad but in the end something could not come off the way you want it with anyone really. A date, a job interview or temp position, even a family member might end up being someone you don't have the kind of relationship with that you wanted. It makes it easier to not get angry at a whole group of people and begin to treat them shabby.

 

I'm pretty sure the girl you're talking about knows you are interested in her. You have been trying to get some time from her so she knows. No need to wait on her though. She will either get back to you or be one of those people who you don't get on with. In the meantime you should still be trying to meet people and be social like before you even noticed her.

 

Seems you have already gone some way to answering my question before I even posted my response to your last comments to me.

 

Actually met another woman for a drink last night. But no, nothing there I don't think. Have two others lined up to meet up with too, so I guess I should contact them.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zaphod B

[Zaphod B]

If you otherwise enjoyed her company and don't have other pressing plans, IMO nothing wrong with a casual meeting for drinks. Look at it this way....the worst that could happen is you'll be out with a lovely CIS woman and can look around and enjoy the view. You never know what might happen. Of course, she could cancel again. Then, move on to plan B. There's always another potential.

 

Why not get back to her today and set it up for Friday night?

 

TBH, I'm kinda glad she canceled on coming to your house with her daughter, if I'm remembering the dynamic right. Easier for you to be your bad boy self with her alone and out on the town.

 

She did explain that she was uncomfortable about bring her there to my place so soon, which was fair enough. But I had met her daughter over the weekend so figured it would be no big deal. But fair enough.

 

I was cool with her daughter being around because I wanted to show that her daughter is welcome and that I will not try to push her aside. And I figured if she was around then there would be no opportunity for hanky panky which would also show that I am serious about her and not just after sex.

 

But you can bet as soon as I get her alone again, I'll be moving in, at least for a little make out session! Should I go for the neck though? That's my secret weapon. No, I should probably refrain for now. lol. I've realised she's a keeper this one so I don't want to rush things now.