Why do some let others walk all over them?

[Kerrie]

I'm having difficulty understanding my love who is a complete different personality type to me (great, two me's would drive anyone mad!).

 

Before I go further, bear with me and hopefully the next paragraph will bring you up to speed.

 

Quick overview: 7 years ago 21 year old boy leaves army for weekend, meets girl at local army jock bar, has one night stand and tosses condom aside when girl says using pill. Months later, girl finds boy, tells him pregnant and boy now pays a fortune each week. Years later girl still doing it to other men and now three kids conceived in same manner, never worked, calls him for extra money, calls grandparents of boy for money...on it goes. Not enough room and some of you are all too familiar with it from earlier posts.

 

I accept that legally she has screwed him and that he has to pay the $150 a week. I accept that if he takes the job offered to him in Singapore he then has to give her near $300 a week. I accept that, to a certain extent, she will always be part of my life while I am with him. I accept the emotional and financial burden she has placed on him/us.

 

What I am having trouble accepting is my mans attitude. some of this will seem like crying over spilled milk, but it all pieces together and a pattern does emerge...his pattern with dealing with her!

 

This woman changed his life and yet he only confronted her about lying about the contraception seven years around June this year! (I never thought she would admit it but she did...she says she wasn't using it but that she was due to start using the contraception. Why tell these men she IS using it???)

 

she wants him to pay a bill, he runs out and pays it. She calls him when she needs to come home from a town that is four hours away. She has an 'abusive' man in and out of her life and who does she call when he gets out of hand...you guessed it! You would have thought he was so resentful about the initial situation that she knew she was only welcome to call him when she had information to do with his daughter. I can't believe she was so welcome to call him for her bulls*** small world problems.

 

Only yesterday she blatantly lied to my guy again and when I ask if he pointed out a fact which clearly showed her statement to be a lie, he said "no, she knows that I know that she lied!!". So, maybe she'll stop treating him like an idiot if he stands up and gives her a piece of his mind (she has caused all sorts of grief for him). She knew that he knew that she lied about the conception, but did that stop her bleeding him dry? What is he getting at?

 

Now, is it just me, or are these not the actions of a man who has been screwed big time by this lying, bludging, selfish woman. I mean, talk about seeing the world and people through rosey glasses - when it gets to the stage that she has done it with three men surely even a saint could see what she is doing.

 

I know I'm rambling but I don't understand any of this. yes, in front of his daughter he has to be polite. No, there is no need to stoop to her level and start trying to scam some of his money back. No, nothing will undo the past seven years but it is all in the principal - quite frankly her morals are from the a**h*** of the earth and we should not be endorsing her behaviour by accepting it. At least that is my view.

 

But, why has she ever called him for anything? How can he let her think she is a friend? What is wrong with cool detachment? You know, the 'I can't stand you but I've learned to tolerate you' kind of air. What is wrong with honesty? what is wrong with asking/demanding to know when she intends to get off her arse and get a job so that he isn't as financially vulnerable as he is now? Why can't he stand up and be a man and start setting some real boundaries with her. a gentle reminder that she lied in the first place, and that he has been honourable enough to hang around and pay her a fortune each week when the other two guys took the tempting way out, when she gets out of hand with her extra demands. I mean, the truth is the truth and as much as I wold love to change who his daughters mum is for that childs sake, her mother is her mother and nobody can change who she is. I believe though that we can put our foot down and explain that we are not accepting any of it and these are the reasons why.... maybe us not accepting it and pointing out some obvious' might initiate some small changes in her philosophy with life and taking from society.

 

He makes so many allowances for her like ' she can't get a job because she is too dumb', she can't drive a car because she is too stupid to learn', she can't pay her gas bill because she is too silly to budget', 'maybe she keeps falling pregnant not to trap guys, but she is too dumb to take the pill'. she isn't the brightest but I'm sure most of you will agree that nobody can be that dumb!

 

Is it me, or is his behavious odd? Everything I have ever said about this woman on this forum is the hard and cold facts so, based on that, how would you fella's handle her? Personally, I wouldn't give her the time of day.I hate to say it, but I'm losing a hell of a lot of respect for him as this goes on...if he lets her walk all over him like that, what would he let me get away with if I was so inclined? Personally, I want a guy who tells it how it is and calls a shovel a spade. Then again, I would have thought a situation like this would force the quiet type to learn to stand up for themselves and not be so trusting with peoples motives.

 

Sorry it is so long...my main question is how would other guys deal with her, with a detached acceptance that includes clear boundaries; or by being a yes man?

 

Thanks - Kerrie

[Tony T]

Answering your question after such a detailed post involves a great deal of judging your guy, unfortunately. It is really hard to say how anybody would act until they were actually in that situation.

 

Looking from the outside in, yes, absolutely, he is being a wimp and an easy touch. But the empathetic me sees a man who feels some sort of bond with a woman who is the mother of his child and some guilt about a child who will never have a very good life because of what he did seven or eight years ago and the trashy mother he picked for her, contraceptives or not.

 

I see a rare man who has some feelings for an innocent child whose life will be empty and otherwise full of small voids because he sought to quickly satisfy his male needs with someone for whom he had little or no feelings.

 

I see a very sorry and guilty man who is trying to buy his way back to salvation by doing everything he can to redeem his soul through money, etc. by giving this child even the slightest of a better chance in life.

 

I see a very depressed and weary man who knows exactly how you feel and who is caught in a vice between the ugly appearance he knows you witness of his being manipulated by a two bit worthless piece of trash who, above that, is THE MOTHER OF HIS CHILD and an angry you, WHO IS THE WOMAN HE LOVES.

 

I do think he goes way overboard in his reaction to this woman, to giving his money to her, to being manipulated by her, etc. I hear your frustration. You want to knock this gurbby little whore who has kids for money over the head with a bat until she is unconscious and cast her into the sewer. Your guy doesn't really see her, I promise, but for the small innocent ones her sins and deceptions have brought onto this planet to suffer their entire lives.

 

Your guy sees this from an entirely different perspective. One that you will never see. One that you can never see. Through his eyes and ears flow images to a troubled, sad and guilty soul who knows that by his desire for a moment of pleasure he has cast a horrible sentence down for an unknowing child, mothered by a woman he unkowingly picked for her. It is a burden only shouldered by a good and sensitive man and one you will never understand.

 

I hope you will leave this man to do his suffering in his own way. He is a man who will not be changed. He is a man who not only shoulders a responsibility for something entirely his fault, regardless of the representations that were made to him, a rare man, a rare soul that would actually see beyond what happened in the outside world and look further into the eyes of a being he helped create.

 

Leave this man because he is rare and has a burden he has imposed on himself to bear, not because he wants to, but because he does accept responsility, because he is one of those rare, unselfish people, because he accepts that he made a serious mistake for just a very few minutes some years ago and that he must pay the price for that because it involves something far more and far deeper than him.

 

Please leave this man to handle what he has brought onto himself...to handle it in the way he has chosen...and so he can find someone to be his companion who will understand that while his behavior may seem wimpish, unreasonably generous, riddled with the receipt of manipulation, that he alone can now and forever be the only one who can decide his response to a minor act so long ago that planted the seed for a horrible life and a burdonsome existence for a human being he tried to ensure would not come to be but nevertheless did.

 

Let this man do what he must. Accept him or leave him. He does not need a burden beyond such a heavy one he now carries and will take with him to his grave.

[Kerrie]

Answering your question after such a detailed post involves a great deal of judging your guy, unfortunately. It is really hard to say how anybody would act until they were actually in that situation.

 

Looking from the outside in, yes, absolutely, he is being a wimp and an easy touch. But the empathetic me sees a man who feels some sort of bond with a woman who is the mother of his child and some guilt about a child who will never have a very good life because of what he did seven or eight years ago and the trashy mother he picked for her, contraceptives or not. I see a rare man who has some feelings for an innocent child whose life will be empty and otherwise full of small voids because he sought to quickly satisfy his male needs with someone for whom he had little or no feelings. I see a very sorry and guilty man who is trying to buy his way back to salvation by doing everything he can to redeem his soul through money, etc. by giving this child even the slightest of a better chance in life. I see a very depressed and weary man who knows exactly how you feel and who is caught in a vice between the ugly appearance he knows you witness of his being manipulated by a two bit worthless piece of trash who, above that, is THE MOTHER OF HIS CHILD and an angry you, WHO IS THE WOMAN HE LOVES. I do think he goes way overboard in his reaction to this woman, to giving his money to her, to being manipulated by her, etc. I hear your frustration. You want to knock this gurbby little whore who has kids for money over the head with a bat until she is unconscious and cast her into the sewer. Your guy doesn't really see her, I promise, but for the small innocent ones her sins and deceptions have brought onto this planet to suffer their entire lives. Your guy sees this from an entirely different perspective. One that you will never see. One that you can never see. Through his eyes and ears flow images to a troubled, sad and guilty soul who knows that by his desire for a moment of pleasure he has cast a horrible sentence down for an unknowing child, mothered by a woman he unkowingly picked for her. It is a burden only shouldered by a good and sensitive man and one you will never understand.

 

I hope you will leave this man to do his suffering in his own way. He is a man who will not be changed. He is a man who not only shoulders a responsibility for something entirely his fault, regardless of the representations that were made to him, a rare man, a rare soul that would actually see beyond what happened in the outside world and look further into the eyes of a being he helped create. Leave this man because he is rare and has a burden he has imposed on himself to bear, not because he wants to, but because he does accept responsility, because he is one of those rare, unselfish people, because he accepts that he made a serious mistake for just a very few minutes some years ago and that he must pay the price for that because it involves something far more and far deeper than him. Please leave this man to handle what he has brought onto himself...to handle it in the way he has chosen...and so he can find someone to be his companion who will understand that while his behavior may seem wimpish, unreasonably generous, riddled with the receipt of manipulation, that he alone can now and forever be the only one who can decide his response to a minor act so long ago that planted the seed for a horrible life and a burdonsome existence for a human being he tried to ensure would not come to be but nevertheless did. Let this man do what he must. Accept him or leave him. He does not need a burden beyond such a heavy one he now carries and will take with him to his grave.

Tony, I've actally asked him if it is mis-guided guilt that is ruling his decision making process. Naturally, he denies this. The reason I asked is that I obviously know how incredible he is and it seemed inkeeping with his beautiful, gentle nature to feel guilty for his child being born to such a poor excuse of a good example (my mother always said to parent by example..in other words, kids emmulate what they are shown).

 

If it is so, I do feel that by consistently pulling the mum out of her self-created financial ##### does not help his daughter. What would help is daughter is for his money to go for counselling or something so the mother can learn to be a bit more of an example. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes we need to force people to look for a deeper strength inside them and I am sure this woman is capable of paying her bills on time if she had no other option. She might even be capable of getting a job one day...but the way it is, with someone to pay all the bills, she doesn't need to.

 

I know I probably sound harsh, but I've had to toughen up the hard way....some say I have a long way to go on the road of toughening up. It was a big shock for me when I took my rosie glasses off one day and realised that some people do manipulate, lie, steal, cheat. I just want him to be realistic about who she is and protect himself financially. But, as your post said, I'll never understand him. He really is an incredible soul huh?? I guess I don't sound one bit spiritual the way I am carrying on..I'm just trying to be the voice of logic in this relationship. Logic and emotion together could be a good compromise??

 

But, I'm getting on a different tangent again. Maybe the issue really is deciding whether I can stand by and watch him being bled dry and not being okay about it, but not saying anything to her. To my mind, the money to ease his 'guilt' would be best in a trust account for his daughter than the pokies at the local bar. But, as you say, he needs to handle it his way.

 

i suspect you are right on the mark with the guilt for the child. He was brought up very well, his parents used to be quite religious and I suspect there was a no sex before marriage philosophy in the family household...which is probably why he didn't tell anyone about the child until well after she was born.

 

I still stand by my opinion (that it isn't fair what she is continuing to do and the only way some compromise can be made is for him to confront her about the financial and emotional pain she is causing and request that she take a long hard look at the situation) but understand that I can not tell him how to handle her. At the same time, I can not watch this any longer. Guilt or not, I feel that he needs to redeem his own respect for himself by putting a foot down so that the additional money mums scums can go toward his daughters future.

 

Thanks again tony - sorry if I sound like a hard bitch. Maybe I'm just not worthy of someone so unbelievably forgiving and generous, otherwise I would be more supportive and proud of his actions because the money is going to his daugthers mother. I just can't feel that...I can't see how it benefits his daughter but it must in some ways because my guy is no dumb ass...or, maybe it just help his guilt and allows him to keep his sanity instead of exploding like he so easily could/has.

 

Thanks again...would you believe it is our anniversary today. Nice romantic dinner tonight so I guess we'll be playing make believe and talk about what we're going to do with 'us' later. s***ty timing, but if I've lost so much self control that I let it upset me on a day like today, then things aren't looking good I guess.

 

Cheers,

 

Kerrie

[Tony T]

I really and truly understand your frustration, but this has gone on for a very long time. You should not burden yourself with these issues which are not likely to resolve themselves anytime soon.

 

If you want this to be a permanent relationship, there is no good, constructive reason why you should trouble yourself over something that will not change. If you cannot tolerate these circumstances, remove yourself from them.

 

If you stay with this man, you will have to watch him deal with this lady for many years. No words of anger or discontent can change your guy's guilt over this child, conceived in the absence of contraceptives rather than the presence of love. It may be a lot easier on your mental state to be gone and rid of the situation.

 

Maybe you should ask him to seek counsel from a financial expert who can advise him on how to more appropriately provide for this child through legal documents that can bypass this woman.

 

But your surer course of action is to absent yourself from the source of your discontent.

[Jenna]

Kerrie,

 

I almost didn't respond to your post- it is very complicated and I feel for you. To tell you the truth- I don't have any formal advice but I wanted to tell you about my best friend-who happens to be in the very same situation as you.

 

She is married to a wonderful man- I am so happy that she has found someone as loving and caring as him. But, along with him came "baggage"- as he had been married before and has a small child from that marriage. My friend started out just like you, asking why, getting angry, trying to advise and it made things worse. Money was the issue a lot of times in her case too- her husband is quite well off- and the divorce settlement was MORE than generous-so when the ex-wife would want more money- my friend was furious! The husband would eventually make the right decision and tell his ex no- but that caused problems too. Poor guy was in a terrible tug of war.

 

My friend eventually decided that she loved her husband so much that she did not want to fight about the ex anymore-for fear that if it went on much longer-it would cause unrepairable damage to their otherwise perfect relationship. She resigned herself to staying out of their dealings. She does not offer advice on matters involving the ex- unless specifically asked. She does not deal with (on any level) the ex-wife- not even on the phone- for any reason. She came to the realization that the reasons she fell in love with this man- are the same reasons that he tolerates his ex-wife's behavior- because he is a good hearted person who wants to do the right thing for his child and even sometimes the mother of his child. He isn't a respected man in his community because of a cold heart- he is known and respected for his fairness and willingness to make things right. She has found that after the change in her way of handling this difficult situation- her life and their marriage has become 100% better. Things are more calm- and they simply enjoy the time that they have been given to share with each other.

 

Maybe there is part of this story that you can apply to your situation -at least I hope so. I can tell that you love your partner-and he is a loving,caring man. Embrace those qualities and put them to work for your relationship. This child will be grown one day-and not a financial issue any longer- what you do today in your life with your partner will have a direct impact on how your lives will be together in the future when this problem no longer exists.

 

Best wishes- Jenna

I'm having difficulty understanding my love who is a complete different personality type to me (great, two me's would drive anyone mad!).

 

Before I go further, bear with me and hopefully the next paragraph will bring you up to speed.

 

Quick overview: 7 years ago 21 year old boy leaves army for weekend, meets girl at local army jock bar, has one night stand and tosses condom aside when girl says using pill. Months later, girl finds boy, tells him pregnant and boy now pays a fortune each week. Years later girl still doing it to other men and now three kids conceived in same manner, never worked, calls him for extra money, calls grandparents of boy for money...on it goes. Not enough room and some of you are all too familiar with it from earlier posts. I accept that legally she has screwed him and that he has to pay the $150 a week. I accept that if he takes the job offered to him in Singapore he then has to give her near $300 a week. I accept that, to a certain extent, she will always be part of my life while I am with him. I accept the emotional and financial burden she has placed on him/us. What I am having trouble accepting is my mans attitude. some of this will seem like crying over spilled milk, but it all pieces together and a pattern does emerge...his pattern with dealing with her! This woman changed his life and yet he only confronted her about lying about the contraception seven years around June this year! (I never thought she would admit it but she did...she says she wasn't using it but that she was due to start using the contraception. Why tell these men she IS using it???) she wants him to pay a bill, he runs out and pays it. She calls him when she needs to come home from a town that is four hours away. She has an 'abusive' man in and out of her life and who does she call when he gets out of hand...you guessed it! You would have thought he was so resentful about the initial situation that she knew she was only welcome to call him when she had information to do with his daughter. I can't believe she was so welcome to call him for her bulls*** small world problems. Only yesterday she blatantly lied to my guy again and when I ask if he pointed out a fact which clearly showed her statement to be a lie, he said "no, she knows that I know that she lied!!". So, maybe she'll stop treating him like an idiot if he stands up and gives her a piece of his mind (she has caused all sorts of grief for him). She knew that he knew that she lied about the conception, but did that stop her bleeding him dry? What is he getting at? Now, is it just me, or are these not the actions of a man who has been screwed big time by this lying, bludging, selfish woman. I mean, talk about seeing the world and people through rosey glasses - when it gets to the stage that she has done it with three men surely even a saint could see what she is doing. I know I'm rambling but I don't understand any of this. yes, in front of his daughter he has to be polite. No, there is no need to stoop to her level and start trying to scam some of his money back. No, nothing will undo the past seven years but it is all in the principal - quite frankly her morals are from the a**h*** of the earth and we should not be endorsing her behaviour by accepting it. At least that is my view. But, why has she ever called him for anything? How can he let her think she is a friend? What is wrong with cool detachment? You know, the 'I can't stand you but I've learned to tolerate you' kind of air. What is wrong with honesty? what is wrong with asking/demanding to know when she intends to get off her arse and get a job so that he isn't as financially vulnerable as he is now? Why can't he stand up and be a man and start setting some real boundaries with her. a gentle reminder that she lied in the first place, and that he has been honourable enough to hang around and pay her a fortune each week when the other two guys took the tempting way out, when she gets out of hand with her extra demands. I mean, the truth is the truth and as much as I wold love to change who his daughters mum is for that childs sake, her mother is her mother and nobody can change who she is. I believe though that we can put our foot down and explain that we are not accepting any of it and these are the reasons why.... maybe us not accepting it and pointing out some obvious' might initiate some small changes in her philosophy with life and taking from society.

 

He makes so many allowances for her like ' she can't get a job because she is too dumb', she can't drive a car because she is too stupid to learn', she can't pay her gas bill because she is too silly to budget', 'maybe she keeps falling pregnant not to trap guys, but she is too dumb to take the pill'. she isn't the brightest but I'm sure most of you will agree that nobody can be that dumb! Is it me, or is his behavious odd? Everything I have ever said about this woman on this forum is the hard and cold facts so, based on that, how would you fella's handle her? Personally, I wouldn't give her the time of day.I hate to say it, but I'm losing a hell of a lot of respect for him as this goes on...if he lets her walk all over him like that, what would he let me get away with if I was so inclined? Personally, I want a guy who tells it how it is and calls a shovel a spade. Then again, I would have thought a situation like this would force the quiet type to learn to stand up for themselves and not be so trusting with peoples motives. Sorry it is so long...my main question is how would other guys deal with her, with a detached acceptance that includes clear boundaries; or by being a yes man? Thanks - Kerrie

[Deejette]

I recently had a frustrating and sad relationship with a man whose entire life was planned around what his ex-wife was or was not doing with the kids. If she wanted to go out with her new "honey" and leave the kids with him, any plans that we made together were on hold. This was very ugly and impossible for me to bear. I could not put my life in the hands of this woman whom he had repeatedly told me was as psycho bitch from hell. He had stayed married to her for 22 years of self-confessed hell and now that he was free from her, (he left her) he was still putting her whims ahead of his own or mine. That was one of the reasons I finally had to call it off.

 

I don't think it is a good quality to be a wimp and let dishonest or mean people get over on you. I lost a lot of respect for him because of this and began resenting the hell out of him. I am so glad he is gone now, with all his past baggage. I did not create the horrible mess he was living in for all those years and why should I take that unruly package into my life now? So even though it was painful I quit and I am still suffering a little from it. But I am healing and realize that I will not repeat that scenario again.

I really and truly understand your frustration, but this has gone on for a very long time. You should not burden yourself with these issues which are not likely to resolve themselves anytime soon.

 

If you want this to be a permanent relationship, there is no good, constructive reason why you should trouble yourself over something that will not change. If you cannot tolerate these circumstances, remove yourself from them. If you stay with this man, you will have to watch him deal with this lady for many years. No words of anger or discontent can change your guy's guilt over this child, conceived in the absence of contraceptives rather than the presence of love. It may be a lot easier on your mental state to be gone and rid of the situation. Maybe you should ask him to seek counsel from a financial expert who can advise him on how to more appropriately provide for this child through legal documents that can bypass this woman.

 

But your surer course of action is to absent yourself from the source of your discontent.

[Kerrie]

Kerrie, I almost didn't respond to your post- it is very complicated and I feel for you. To tell you the truth- I don't have any formal advice but I wanted to tell you about my best friend-who happens to be in the very same situation as you.

 

She is married to a wonderful man- I am so happy that she has found someone as loving and caring as him. But, along with him came "baggage"- as he had been married before and has a small child from that marriage. My friend started out just like you, asking why, getting angry, trying to advise and it made things worse. Money was the issue a lot of times in her case too- her husband is quite well off- and the divorce settlement was MORE than generous-so when the ex-wife would want more money- my friend was furious! The husband would eventually make the right decision and tell his ex no- but that caused problems too. Poor guy was in a terrible tug of war. My friend eventually decided that she loved her husband so much that she did not want to fight about the ex anymore-for fear that if it went on much longer-it would cause unrepairable damage to their otherwise perfect relationship. She resigned herself to staying out of their dealings. She does not offer advice on matters involving the ex- unless specifically asked. She does not deal with (on any level) the ex-wife- not even on the phone- for any reason. She came to the realization that the reasons she fell in love with this man- are the same reasons that he tolerates his ex-wife's behavior- because he is a good hearted person who wants to do the right thing for his child and even sometimes the mother of his child. He isn't a respected man in his community because of a cold heart- he is known and respected for his fairness and willingness to make things right. She has found that after the change in her way of handling this difficult situation- her life and their marriage has become 100% better. Things are more calm- and they simply enjoy the time that they have been given to share with each other.

 

Maybe there is part of this story that you can apply to your situation -at least I hope so. I can tell that you love your partner-and he is a loving,caring man. Embrace those qualities and put them to work for your relationship. This child will be grown one day-and not a financial issue any longer- what you do today in your life with your partner will have a direct impact on how your lives will be together in the future when this problem no longer exists. Best wishes- Jenna

We had a fantastic night last night and this issue was not discussed once (I promised myself it was not to be brought up..anniversary). I hate the guilt I feel when it all calms down and nights like last night happen...where everything is so perfect that it seems like just the two of you in the world, so you start wondering how you could ever have been so upset and how the thought of leaving could ever cross your mind....an on the cycle goes, next week you're upset again.

 

And Tony, your post hit some sore points for me as much of that had crossed my mind. Sometimes I feel like a right bitch but then I just can't stand to see this man, who has suffered enough, suffer so unproductively - his money going to the mother never reaches the daughter in any case. I feel for this man so much and the way you wrote it all so eloquently really hit it home...he won't conceed it has anything to do with anything and insists he has nothing to feel guilty about, but a man with his nature would have to feel guilt, or at least some remorse for the child.

 

See, the confusing thing is that when I am ranting about her calling for more money yet again, he tells me I should have it out with her. His mother, a psychologist, wants me to have it out with her. Nobody will disagree with what I say, in fact they - including him - will add to my comments with stories of times before my day when she did something absolutely untolerable. It seems they want me to say what they've wanted to say for years.

 

So, I've decided that No, I am not going to be the one to have it out with her. If he wants to discuss things maturely with her (that is all I want, some sort of game plan and boundaries) then I am happy to accompany him but I will be keeping my mouth shut - it needs to come from him and it can be done in a cool and calm manner. Last night I decided that I am going to write everything out and re-iterate my support to him in the letter, and also mention that if he refuses to confront her, I will be forced to distance myself from the contact with her - this includes phone calls and also means that he is not to tell me when she calls, how much more she got....nothing.

 

We'll see. all you can do is try. And, like Jenna's friend, it is all the qualities that I fell in love with him for that are currently frustrating me.As Alanis says, life really is ironic.