Being in an affair robs you of your self-esteem?

[Confused4Now]

I think for an intelligent, mature person this is true. We know that the simple fact that a guy is married and flirting with us, is a huge red flag this this dude has issues.

 

But I think you can be very gullible and naive and have high self esteem.

 

Many OW believe MM lies. They think he is good person in a bad situation. They sympathize with him. They take his words at face value.

 

This doesn't mean they have low self-esteem. It means they are trusting. They see the good in people. They haven't developed those internal bells that ding when something doesn't sound right. Maybe they have had a sheltered life, maybe they have never been deceived, maybe they are immature and (no offense) but maybe they are just not too bright....?

 

They don't think they are second place. They believe MM that they are soul mates. In OW mind, she is not settling for less because she doesn't see that she is getting a lying, manipulative, weak, conflict avoiding, cheater with poor coping skills. She believes she is getting a great guy that realizes he is with the wrong woman, and that he will be leaving her. The wife rarely even enters her mind, because the wife is non-issue. In her mind, MM & BW relationship is OVER.

 

They make assumptions, based on naive beliefs.

 

They must be so special if MM would risk it all! MM is cheating so that must mean he wants a divorce! MM wouldn't pursue me if he still wanted his wife! MM loves sex with me, so he no longer attracted to his wife! MM is miserable at home and that means he is going to leave!

 

All of those assumptions are the result of not have much life experience. Romantic ideas put into the heads of little girls watching Disney movies. If a man pursues me he wants to be with me forever!

 

So in the beginning, a naive OW takes his actions as a sign that he is really interested in a long term relationship with her. A more mature, worldy woman will be more suspicious of his motives.

 

I don't think that has anything to with self esteem, just life experience.

 

However, if d-day happens and MM stays with the wife, if OW catches MM in lies...things change.

 

OW was so certain, so sure of his love for her and the SHOCK she feels, the BETRAYAL, the deep sadness, after believing him wholeheartedly...that sudden blow is traumatizing, and can definitely result in low self esteem, and even PTSD.

 

Now she questions everything about herself and what she thought she knew about the world, and whether she can really trust anyone, whether she can even trust her own judgement.

 

I don't think that scenario is that uncommon. Many OW start out confident, content and happy. And it's the relationship that tears them down, and before you know it they can't even remember how to be that happy girl anymore.

I was the man in this scenerio and I believed my xMW would leave her marriage cause I had demonstrated by leaving mine. This past experience took all the swagger away from me and beat me down so bad. It took several years to get over it. Today I'm a much better place and finally have my swagger again. I haven't gotten serious yet with anyone but I'm certainly getting my EGO stroked!!!:laugh:

[SoMovinOn]

See, I think, and for myself only of course, that settling is a result of low self esteem. Someone with good regard for themselves would never "settle" for anything that repeatedly made them feel humiliated or angry

 

Is there an assumption being involved in an A always makes one feel humiliated and angry, or is this in response to specific statements?

[SoMovinOn]

maybe i'm foolish, but i always thought that the idea of it affecting someone's self esteem came about because it may be going against a person's core values and belief system to be involved in an affair. I can see how this would be a real hit to someone's self esteem to be in that situation.

 

I have never been involved in an A that went against my core values. If I was not OK with it, I would not get involved in the A. I know I am not everyone and people are different - Can/Do some people get involved in A's even though doing so opposes their core values?

 

 

 

... I realized that tying my self esteem to the choices and actions of someone else made no sense. ...

 

I think that's an important lesson in *every* aspect of life.

[SoMovinOn]

Because someone with good esteem would never allow themselves to be hurt like that.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with that statement, but I haven't contemplated it enough to say I disagree. I am just wondering if there may be other reasons why someone would allow themselves to be hurt ("like that", or in any way). Specific to an A scenario, I don't know that there are and can't think of any off the top of my head.

[SoMovinOn]

Powerless to walk away? A person with good esteem is never powerless to walk away from something that is damaging to them

 

As a general statement, I disagree. No one is ever powerless to walk away from something, but people, with good self esteem or bad self esteem, often willfully involve themselves in things that are damaging, or potentially damaging, to them.

[SoMovinOn]

But I do believe that a person with good esteem will not be struggling with NC months later. I believer a person with good esteem will not suffer through years of lies and multiple D days, only to cry here, why? why?! WHY!!

 

And I believe that a person with good esteem would never say, he/his actions made me feel bad about myself.

 

I do believe those two statements to be totally true.

[SoMovinOn]

...assume one doesn't know relationships...

 

We can make this simple...

 

re·la·tion·ship   [ri-ley-shuhn-ship]

noun

1.a connection, association, or involvement.

2.connection between persons by blood or marriage.

3.an emotional or other connection between people: the relationship between teachers and students.

4.a sexual involvement; affair.

 

Note 1, 3 & 4 ... an affair *is* a relationship.

 

You may be right in saying an affair is not ...something... but "relationship" is not the word you are looking for. An affair is clearly a relationship and in no way could it be argued it is not.

 

 

You're arguing semantics. You know we're talking about in an exclusive way, which is why an affair is no relationship...

 

Exclusivity in no way determines whether or not something is a relationship. ... but, you have clarified what you meant to say was "An affair is not an exclusive relationship" ... a point which I, and I doubt anyone else would argue. As it involves at least three people, it wouldn't appear to be exclusive (although, in the case of an open marriage, an A *could* be exclusive between the three or four people involved)

 

 

And what does this have to do with the discussion?

 

It was countering your incorrect assertion that A's exist only for sex.

 

 

I have not read your posts, just the one I replied to but I've been reading this board for a considerable amount of time and I know your type so it's not hard to point out the falsity and negativity in any OM/OW on this board.

 

What's my type? They typical black, Jewish, corporate CEO who lives in multiple countries?

 

 

And neither are the AP. A few lustful discussions between the participants is not something sexually and emotionally fulfilling.

 

Oddly enough, many affairs go way beyond a few lustful discussions, and some don't involve lustful discussions at all. I would dare say most of them are emotionally fulfilling, at least at first - otherwise why would anyone get involved in an A, and why would anyone stay in an A (sometimes for many years)? Whether or not they were sexually fulfilling would certainly depend first on whether or not sex was involved in the A, and if it were, whether or not it was the purpose/focus of the A, or something less.

 

True, only from your perspective.

 

No. It's true from any perspective. Someone handing you a piece of paper doesn't make you special. How you feel about yourself makes you special. How someone else makes you feel can make you special. How someone else feels about you can make you special. ... but none of that can be incorporated into a sheet of paper, no matter what you write on it. The paper can be symbolic of those feelings, but it cannot create or hold them.

 

This shows how you don't think marriage is special

 

No. It shows our differences with you believing in the magic powers of paper, and me believing in people and their relationships. I think the high divorce rate makes it pretty clear there are no powers in a marriage license.

 

... and that you have no respect for the people in it...

 

I have no respect for a man who abuses, belittles and disrespects his wife. ... and I don't feel at all bad about that.

 

 

... hence why you involve yourself in such matters that do not pertain to you...

 

Caring about someone I love most assuredly pertains to me ... even if we don't have a piece of paper between us.

 

 

Your mentality is of someone who believes they are in entitled to anything and everything.

 

You have an amazing ability to know me from reading a single post. Did you get that power from a magic piece of paper? ... something that says you're an ordained psychic perhaps?

 

 

Yet you actively ignore that those marriages are none of your concern.

 

People I love and care about *are* my concern.

 

Those are matters of which you are not to involve yourself in. You don't know what that BS does, all you're doing is spending what little time you can with their spouse, who you know doesn't care about their BS.

 

You are stunningly clueless. I know what I see, and, if she didn't care about her BS, she'd already be gone.

 

 

And here you think such serious matters are a game.

 

You brought up sloppy seconds. ...

 

 

No, but that does not give you the right to engage a married woman.

 

You're right... there is no such right. It is a choice - hers and mine.

 

 

You only know what that MM/MW wants you to know.

 

Unless one is psychic, no one ever knows anything other than what another person wants you to know. If you think spouses share every thought and know everything there is to know about each other, you must be living alone on a deserted island somewhere.

[SoMovinOn]

THIS VERY LIKELY WILL NOT BE HEALTHY FOR ME. I COULD GET HURT HERE.

 

Isn't that true of pretty much *every* relationship? Most relationships end. People go from on relationship to another, looking for that single "Right One", so, it is safe to assume, when getting into any relationship, A or not, that there are only two possible results - it will end, or, they will be the "Right One" and you will stay together. I suppose there would be a third option, really a subset of the first option (it will end) - that one party would decide the other was the "Right One" and the other would not feel the same.

[spice4life]

SBC, I want to answer one of your earlier statements about why someone would end an A. When someone tells their AP that they are ending the A because of how it makes them feel about themselves or that it can ding their self esteem if they choose to continue, is not placing blame on the person. They are saying that circumstances surrounding the A are not good for them. It is actually a healthy thing for a person to say...it means they are expressing their feelings about why they can't stay. That's a good thing! They are being honest about how the dynamics of an A effect them in a negative way so they have to say good bye. That is not blaming the person, it's saying the situation is not healthy...that is a honest expression of feelings. It shows strength and good self esteem.

[sleepessinoh]

I think for an intelligent, mature person this is true. We know that the simple fact that a guy is married and flirting with us, is a huge red flag this this dude has issues.

 

But I think you can be very gullible and naive and have high self esteem.

 

Many OW believe MM lies. They think he is good person in a bad situation. They sympathize with him. They take his words at face value.

 

This doesn't mean they have low self-esteem. It means they are trusting. They see the good in people. They haven't developed those internal bells that ding when something doesn't sound right. Maybe they have had a sheltered life, maybe they have never been deceived, maybe they are immature and (no offense) but maybe they are just not too bright....?

 

They don't think they are second place. They believe MM that they are soul mates. In OW mind, she is not settling for less because she doesn't see that she is getting a lying, manipulative, weak, conflict avoiding, cheater with poor coping skills. She believes she is getting a great guy that realizes he is with the wrong woman, and that he will be leaving her. The wife rarely even enters her mind, because the wife is non-issue. In her mind, MM & BW relationship is OVER.

 

They make assumptions, based on naive beliefs.

 

They must be so special if MM would risk it all! MM is cheating so that must mean he wants a divorce! MM wouldn't pursue me if he still wanted his wife! MM loves sex with me, so he no longer attracted to his wife! MM is miserable at home and that means he is going to leave!

 

All of those assumptions are the result of not have much life experience. Romantic ideas put into the heads of little girls watching Disney movies. If a man pursues me he wants to be with me forever!

 

So in the beginning, a naive OW takes his actions as a sign that he is really interested in a long term relationship with her. A more mature, worldy woman will be more suspicious of his motives.

 

I don't think that has anything to with self esteem, just life experience.

 

However, if d-day happens and MM stays with the wife, if OW catches MM in lies...things change.

 

OW was so certain, so sure of his love for her and the SHOCK she feels, the BETRAYAL, the deep sadness, after believing him wholeheartedly...that sudden blow is traumatizing, and can definitely result in low self esteem, and even PTSD.

 

Now she questions everything about herself and what she thought she knew about the world, and whether she can really trust anyone, whether she can even trust her own judgement.

 

I don't think that scenario is that uncommon. Many OW start out confident, content and happy. And it's the relationship that tears them down, and before you know it they can't even remember how to be that happy girl anymore.

 

Thank you! This is exactly how this happened for me. I was dating when I met MM and I was not lacking in dates although they were not really what I was looking for. I will be the first to say I was niave..so niave. My A played out like the a playbook. I knew he was a MM but I was his friend and that was it...until that one day and I was already emotionally attached to mm at that point and then after that the sex started and it was addictive cause it was so awesome. I dated throughout my entire A. I was not going to settle for a man who cheated on his W. But I fell in love and I still ask myself how I allowed that to happen and how I got here. I gave no d-day, I just ended it cause it was tearing me up and now I am trying to heal while he is holding on to this friendship. I am in NC now. I miss him. I still dont think that was because I have low self esteem. I think I was just a stupid girl who had never been in a situation like that before and can assure you I will never get there again. My A did teach me alot about me and boundaries though. The thing that hit me the hardest with your post is what I bolded. I so miss that happy girl and I am trying to get her back It doesnt matter what your self esteem was when you entered your A, the A sure as hell bruises or damages it and the OW/OM has to work hard to fix the damage that was done. I am not blaming MM for damaging me, I have 100% accountability for me getting where I am today cause that day he changed everything, I could have said no way Jose and I didnt

[sleepessinoh]

I know I am going to piss people off here, and that is totally NOT my intention, honest. But to me, this screams of low self esteem. Having a hard time saying 'no' is not giving freely. It is giving out of some other reason --could be guilt, could be fear, it could be out of desperate need for approval. But saying yes when you really mean no says your own opinion matters less than that of the other person, in other words, you have put yourself below that other person. The other thing having a hard time saying no does is it lowers your ability to make good choices --can you see how that would be? This is low self esteem.

 

This is what I was. A pleaser, a giver --I thought it made me happy to make others happy. Changing this was one of the things that I said earlier that has felt weird. It feels weird to me (although it is getting easier the more I do it) but I learning to say NO, even when it is my knee jerk reaction to say yes so I can make someone else happy. Changing this is HARD. But is is life changing.

 

I appreciate your views. I found this board on one of my worst nights after m A ended. You make me think and say hmmm about this. You make good points. But I have always had a hard time saying no. I always blamed that on my sign as I am a libra and we are major pleasers and peace keepers. I read on one of these posts that I MM looking for an A can spot his target miles away. I wonder why and if I was spotted. Was it because I do have low self esteem and am just great at hiding it to the outside world? You make me go hmmmm

[donnamaybe]

 

I have no respect for a man who abuses, belittles and disrespects his wife. ... and I don't feel at all bad about that

 

And a woman who does those things to her husband... do you hold her in contempt as well? Or do you just screw her and conveniently disregard the H?

[xxoo]

Isn't that true of pretty much *every* relationship? Most relationships end. People go from on relationship to another, looking for that single "Right One", so, it is safe to assume, when getting into any relationship, A or not, that there are only two possible results - it will end, or, they will be the "Right One" and you will stay together. I suppose there would be a third option, really a subset of the first option (it will end) - that one party would decide the other was the "Right One" and the other would not feel the same.

 

No, it is not true that pretty much every relationship will be unhealthy and hurtful. I find that perspective alarming!

 

Relationships can run their course and end without causing the kind of devastation so often seen here in the OW/OM section.

 

Not to mention, above you quoted a broad definition of "relationship". Many relationships between friends and family members are lifelong and healthy.

[Spark1111]

Isn't that true of pretty much *every* relationship? Most relationships end. People go from on relationship to another, looking for that single "Right One", so, it is safe to assume, when getting into any relationship, A or not, that there are only two possible results - it will end, or, they will be the "Right One" and you will stay together. I suppose there would be a third option, really a subset of the first option (it will end) - that one party would decide the other was the "Right One" and the other would not feel the same.

 

Ahhh, but in an affair there is always a third party, no? There is always a pre-existing relationship with another who does not know of the AP, correct?

 

Otherwise, it wouldn't be an affair, would it?

 

That's taking a huge risk, a huge leap of faith. It is also setting one's self up for potential disaster and heartbreak; it is a greater risk than dating a single person. It is also subjugating your needs and desires to the necessary secrecy that must be kept from your lover's spouse, friends, children and family; to accepting spending time with your lover when it is convenient for them to slip away from the unsuspecting spouse. It is living your life and your relationship on hold because keeping the secret dictates it be so.

 

It is often waiting for years, if ever, for the AP to disclose to the spouse, call an attorney, file for divorce, divide assets, set up custody, and live out loud with you full-time. Isn' that what you hope for? Dream of? Waking up together every morning? Going to bed together every evening?

 

If you accept the terms, so be it. But healthy? No, of course not. Not living out loud and having a partner there to meet your needs as you meet their's 24/7 is not a secure, loving, long-term, healthy, GOOD FOR ME AND US relationship.

 

Having babies, growing old together with family and friends rooting you on is the ideal, isn't it?

 

I'm too selfish and my ego is too strong. If I love you and you love me, I want you full time and exclusively. I don't share and I don't willingly subject myself to unwarranted heartache.

 

I wouldn't touch a MP with a ten-foot pole, not for love or money or strong attraction. And although often approached, I skeeved the idea and they sensed it and stopped it immediately like errant children.

 

I can only assume they moved on until they found someone with ahem....less ego or more naivete.

[SoMovinOn]

And a woman who does those things to her husband... do you hold her in contempt as well? Or do you just screw her and conveniently disregard the H?

 

I don't know. If I ever meet a woman who abuses, belittles and disrespects her H, I'll let you know.

[SoMovinOn]

No, it is not true that pretty much every relationship will be unhealthy and hurtful. I find that perspective alarming!

 

Relationships can run their course and end without causing the kind of devastation so often seen here in the OW/OM section.

 

Not to mention, above you quoted a broad definition of "relationship". Many relationships between friends and family members are lifelong and healthy.

 

Taking that single line in context with the rest of the paragraph, where I was clearing talking about enduring the end of romantic relationships, it would probably much less alarming.

[SoMovinOn]

Ahhh, but in an affair...

 

I was more looking the other way... in a romantic relationship, enduring pain and heartbreak in the event it ends, is always a risk, and, most romantic relationships would most likely end as it is only supposed to be that one, rare, find which lasts forever.

[xxoo]

I was more looking the other way... in a romantic relationship, enduring pain and heartbreak in the event it ends, is always a risk, and, most romantic relationships would most likely end as it is only supposed to be that one, rare, find which lasts forever.

 

Unhealthy is the key word here. The post you quoted indicated that the affair relationship and break up would not be a healthy experience, and that is likely true.

 

That is not true of all romantic relationships. Not even close.

[SoMovinOn]

Unhealthy is the key word here. The post you quoted indicated that the affair relationship and break up would not be a healthy experience, and that is likely true.

 

That is not true of all romantic relationships. Not even close.

 

There is nothing healthy about breaking up a non-A relationship. One need not be M to have difficulties, sometimes very serious difficulties, with an ex. In one real world example - woman dates man 1, it doesn't work out, she breaks up with him. He stalks her. He assaults her. He goes to jail. He gets out of jail. Nothing happens for a couple of years. She dates other men, finds one who seems right for her (man 2). They move in together. Man 1 breaks into their house one night and stabs man 2 to death.

 

Nothing healthy about that. No M involved. No A involved. No cheating or lying involved.

 

*Any* time one involves themselves with another person, in any type of relationship, there is risk.

[SoMovinOn]

But an affair has so many more risks than other relationships but yet most don't acknowledge those risks or they delude themselves into thinking it doesn't apply to me because this is different.

 

Does it? What additional risks are involved in an A that do not exist in any other romantic relationship?

[donnamaybe]

I don't know. If I ever meet a woman who abuses, belittles and disrespects her H, I'll let you know.

 

And you don't consider lying to and sneaking around on your partner abuse? Just because there are no marks visible to the eye doesn't mean it's not abuse. Then again, like nearly everyone involved in A's, a partner in cheating would find a way to twist and rationalize the situation, at least in their own mind. I suppose it's what helps them look in the mirror.

[xxoo]

There is nothing healthy about breaking up a non-A relationship. One need not be M to have difficulties, sometimes very serious difficulties, with an ex. In one real world example - woman dates man 1, it doesn't work out, she breaks up with him. He stalks her. He assaults her. He goes to jail. He gets out of jail. Nothing happens for a couple of years. She dates other men, finds one who seems right for her (man 2). They move in together. Man 1 breaks into their house one night and stabs man 2 to death.

 

Nothing healthy about that. No M involved. No A involved. No cheating or lying involved.

 

*Any* time one involves themselves with another person, in any type of relationship, there is risk.

 

This insane level of drama is not a typical relationship.

 

Maybe this is the issue. Maybe people think affair drama is ok because they are so desensitized to relationship drama. This stuff is NOT normal or healthy.

 

Yes, a risk is involved in any relationship. But in an A, it is closer to a guarantee.

 

Also, with a single person, it seems that it is easier to attribute unhealthy behavior to the person, and get out early. In an affair, so much unhealthy behavior is justified and excused because of the "situation" (being married, forced to lie, etc). I believe that most OW/OM would not tolerate the same behavior from a single person.

[Silly_Girl]

A triangle is the biggie which inherently has more risks to someone's heart, more self esteem hits due to being 2nd. An angry maybe violent bs, risk of losing other relationships due to the disapproval, etc,. I'm very surprised that you question it because given the inclination I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make a list that covered a full page easily.

 

Could you do that?

 

Self-esteem hits? In fact many argue it boosts self-esteem (he chooses to spend time with me, risk his stable life, his marriage, for this relationship)...

 

Violence - I don't know of any proven link. You could meet a single guy who has a crazy ex... It seems tenuous.

 

Risk of losing other relationships... I can imagine if close friends were having an affair then perhaps those friends in the group who felt forced to choose a path would do so, but otherwise I don't see the link there either.

[woinlove]

Does it? What additional risks are involved in an A that do not exist in any other romantic relationship?

 

From the stories on LS given by OW/OM who seem to have taken a hit in self-esteem, the largest one appears to be not displacing the BS. Usually the devastation and feelings of low-self-worth on LS are exhibited along with the realization that the MM/MW is going to stay M despite giving indications to the contrary.

 

A secondary one seems to be learning that one has been lied to. Lying can happen in any R, but in a secret A, it is certain that the MM/MW is capable of and willing to carry on that kind of deception. Also perhaps there is a somewhat higher risk of lying about the nature of the M, their intent to leave, because otherwise the OW/OM might think the A is doomed from an early stage. By contrast, many R between available people don't even get to a serious stage of talking about possible changes in marital status until a year or two into the R. Many OW/OM are not willing to stay in an A that long without any indication from the MM/MW of some desire to leave the M.

 

Of course, some OW/OM don't want the MM/MW to leave the M, in which case none of the above apply. Those cases don't usually exhibit a change in self-esteem because of the A either.

 

Bottom line: risk that MM/MW may stay married to someone else in cases where the OW/OM wants more than being a hidden affair partner.

Edited September 3, 2011 by woinlove

[fooled once]

There is nothing healthy about breaking up a non-A relationship. One need not be M to have difficulties, sometimes very serious difficulties, with an ex. In one real world example - woman dates man 1, it doesn't work out, she breaks up with him. He stalks her. He assaults her. He goes to jail. He gets out of jail. Nothing happens for a couple of years. She dates other men, finds one who seems right for her (man 2). They move in together. Man 1 breaks into their house one night and stabs man 2 to death.

 

Nothing healthy about that. No M involved. No A involved. No cheating or lying involved.

 

*Any* time one involves themselves with another person, in any type of relationship, there is risk.

 

I disagree that "There is nothing healthy about breaking up a non-A relationship.". It is very healthy for an abused spouse to end a marriage!

 

 

Does it? What additional risks are involved in an A that do not exist in any other romantic relationship?

 

Are you joking?

 

)...

 

Violence - I don't know of any proven link. You could meet a single guy who has a crazy ex... It seems tenuous.

 

Risk of losing other relationships... I can imagine if close friends were having an affair then perhaps those friends in the group who felt forced to choose a path would do so, but otherwise I don't see the link there either.

 

Did you not here the news of a woman who drove all night to kill a romantic rival ? She has been found guilty of her crime! You can easily google and find articles of violence and infidelity!