Being in an affair robs you of your self-esteem?

[woinlove]

 

You think someone can be cocky and arrogant and have low self esteem at the same time? It would seem to me, the first two are indications of high self esteem.

 

Yes. People who act cocky and arrogant can have either high or low self-esteem. Most people with high self-esteem aren't cocky and arrogant, but if they are a narcissist, they can be cocky and arrogant because, although they have high self-esteem (as measured technically) they are unable to really care about others.

 

ETA: I see someone already answered this. I believe narcissists can register high on self-esteem, really believing they are awesome. The trait that seems more common with narcissists is the inability to care for others.

Edited September 6, 2011 by woinlove

[xxoo]

Eventually, perhaps. And even then I'm a little sceptical to be honest.

 

I don't know about being thrilled about the outcome, but there are many who eventually feel relieved to have "dodged a bullet", even if they are still upset about having been through the experience.

 

The most telling to me, though, is the number of OW/OM who say they will never do this again--even in the midst of the affair, even if they still hope for a good outcome.

[jthorne]

Eventually, perhaps. And even then I'm a little sceptical to be honest.

I doubt anyone in that situation is bothered by your skepticism. However, I'd like to ask a question here as opposed to PM, as I think others would be interested in your response.

 

Does your skepticism extend to normal single-person relationships, or is it exclusive to affairs?

 

I'm just wondering because I'd like to think a truly caring person would be thrilled for anyone who had the emotional maturity and intelligence to be glad that an unhealthy situation didn't work out for them.

 

Your post seems to illustrate bias, and frankly, a little jealousy. My interpretation, but I'm sure there are others who interpreted it like I did.

[Silly_Girl]

I doubt anyone in that situation is bothered by your skepticism. However, I'd like to ask a question here as opposed to PM, as I think others would be interested in your response.

 

Does your skepticism extend to normal single-person relationships, or is it exclusive to affairs?

 

I'm just wondering because I'd like to think a truly caring person would be thrilled for anyone who had the emotional maturity and intelligence to be glad that an unhealthy situation didn't work out for them.

 

Your post seems to illustrate bias, and frankly, a little jealousy. My interpretation, but I'm sure there are others who interpreted it like I did.

 

I think my posts about how folk often re-write relationship history (in my view) and also what I've written about my experiences in getting over - and how I feel about - my ex probably cover those off, to be honest. As for your last remark, I'm aware that you like to interpret in a certain way; many times have been so unbelievably off-kilter, I can't imagine that stopping any time soon.

[donnamaybe]

What I see here is a LOT of people wishing they could write their own future but, unfortunately, being woefully unable to do so - even when they wait over half a decade hoping for the script to come to fruition.

[jthorne]

I think my posts about how folk often re-write relationship history (in my view) and also what I've written about my experiences in getting over - and how I feel about - my ex probably cover those off, to be honest. As for your last remark, I'm aware that you like to interpret in a certain way; many times have been so unbelievably off-kilter, I can't imagine that stopping any time soon.

Thanks, but you really didn't answer the question.

[country_gurl]

How can someone who's in an affair with a MM or MW maintain any level of self-esteem when they have to live a lie?

 

-can't admit to your friends or family that the one you love is actually married

 

How can they maintain self-esteem when they have to deal with the fact that:

 

-their MW/MM will be spending important holidays with their spouse and family while their OW/OM will be spending it alone?

-their MW/MM is still sleeping in the same bed with their spouse, still having sex with them and sharing intimacy? How can one maintain self-esteem when they have to consider that they're nothing but secret sloppy seconds?

-they are a dirty little secret?

[donnamaybe]

How can someone who's in an affair with a MM or MW maintain any level of self-esteem when they have to live a lie?

 

-can't admit to your friends or family that the one you love is actually married

 

How can they maintain self-esteem when they have to deal with the fact that:

 

-their MW/MM will be spending important holidays with their spouse and family while their OW/OM will be spending it alone?

-their MW/MM is still sleeping in the same bed with their spouse, still having sex with them and sharing intimacy? How can one maintain self-esteem when they have to consider that they're nothing but secret sloppy seconds?

-they are a dirty little secret?

...and when they come on an internet forum talking about all the time they spend with their lovely man while in reality he is still living with the BS?

[MissBee]

I don't agree that it creates a skewed picture of affairs. Even the people I know in affairs that don't post have the same sad/sob stories to report. Some people just refuse to put their person business on the internet.

 

 

 

Yes, in fact, being a narcissist is widely believed to be a position of low self-esteem. And being cocky and arrogant are often just defense mechanisms used to hide insecurities and low self-esteem.

 

There is a reason that many people avoid the cocky and arrogant besides finding them annoying. Most of the time they are emotional vampires that suck the life and vitality out of others. And they are often the main people found in affairs, sucking the life out of the unsuspecting.

 

I would have to agree to the bolded.

 

I truly appreciate those who are real about their situation or at least can place their situation in a broader context versus taking a very unlikely possibility or unlikely trend and setting it up as the norm and as if everyone else is somehow so foolish and unrealistic as to not realize that their stance is indeed what normally happens.

 

Of course there are some people in As feeling unbothered; however, to really argue that people in affairs who feel dissatisfied, hurt, are in the midst of drama etc are somehow the minority (like many on LS) and are making a bad name for the rest of the happy A-ers is really taking things a bit far IMO.

 

I have not done a study, but on this point I'd be willing to bet that in the real world, we would not see a drastic amount of evidence pointing to that argument.

 

I was not on a support forum for my A (and it wasn't because I was untroubled) and I would wager that many, if not most, people in the world currently in As aren't on forums either, and it is probably not because of their happiness. Who chooses to post on forums and who chooses not to are based on many variables; activities within forums can only be looked at with the qualifier that "these are only those who choose to come online and share"...which goes back to, yes those sharing here are often unhappy, but they are "unhappy A-ers who use internet forums" and not representative of "All People Of The World Unhappy in As". Is it skewed? Yes, towards those who use the internet/computers/forums/are literate etc...is it skewed in terms of over-representing the number of those dissatisfied in As? I doubt.

Edited September 6, 2011 by MissBee

[MissBee]

Great post! Those they post in defense of affairs are oftentimes the same one's who are still in an affair.

 

As for the rest of us that have been in past affairs they assume that we are bitter and mean because it didn't have the desired outcome (we didn't get the mm/mw) while refusing to realize that it's because we've grown and realized that an affair is not a suitable or healthy relationship. Hindsight is a really good thing. With that said, there are posters who have graduated from an affair to a relationship with the former ap who also have the same viewpoint in that an affair was not a healthy relationship and some are brave enough to share their real life struggles and the special challenges they face because of the affair dynamic in the past. To those who are real and frank and honest, my hat is off to them too.

 

 

Like I have said....I have yet to come across a soul who after ending their A, years later wishes they had stayed put. If such a one exists and is currently lurking, please come forward and share to provide some contrast for my line of thinking. Do such folks exist? There may be some but I'm not convinced that most or even many people feel that way.

 

Every relationship that ends and is never resumed is meant to be that way IMO because one outgrew it, it wasn't right, one has grown etc. In my experience, I always "move up" after each relationship to a different level of self understanding, have new desires, refine more of what I want as well as who I am; so the next person I attract is an upgrade from the previous, as I have myself upgraded.

 

I long for NONE of my former bfs and while I can appreciate certain aspects of the relationship in hindsight and dislike certain other aspects, I NEVER think about being with them again,as that me is shed and gone like old snake skin! That's my growth pattern in general and my old A partner falls within that realm as well. He is relinquished to the graveyard of exes where ALL my exes go. So yea...me secretly being upset 4 years later that he and I didn't work out... secretly wanting to resume that A or find a new relationship that is an A....err...not.

 

I take no issue with people defending their personal circumstances and rightfully I cannot say definitely what will occur for them, but I do take issue with those presenting their situation or some very obscure and questionable "affair positivity outlook" as though it is the most obvious possibility most of the time and everyone else is too daft and close-minded to realize it. As one who engages research and scholarship, there are conventional views in each discipline that a scholar can seek to disprove and argue against,through their own research; however, in order to challenge a conventional view, one has to come with substantive data to prove their point and that this idea they're presenting is worth something and not just an interesting, devil's advocate possibility that lacks any generalizibility. Most of what I see here, in terms of a positive slant on As, tends to fall in the latter category. A devil's advocate point, a point that may be true in some cases, but most lack any generalizibility that would cause me to truly rethink the conventional understanding of As.

Edited September 6, 2011 by MissBee

[SoMovinOn]

I don't agree that it creates a skewed picture of affairs.

 

Of course it does. You are looking at a specific subset of a group. It would be the same as looking at a group of blue cars, and coming to the conclusion all cars are blue.

 

(Sorry... I'm a guy - it's always a car analogy)

 

 

Yes, in fact, being a narcissist is widely believed to be a position of low self-esteem. And being cocky and arrogant are often just defense mechanisms used to hide insecurities and low self-esteem.

 

From an article "7 Myths About Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder" ... the top two ...

 

"1. Narcissism is really high self-esteem. No, it's not. Someone can have really high self-esteem and not be narcissistic. The key difference is that people high in self-esteem focus on relationships and narcissists are missing that piece about caring about relationships. They want to know what other people can do for them, but in terms of having close emotional relationships, they don't care.

 

2. Deep down, narcissists are insecure and have low self-esteem. People assume that narcissists must be concealing some deep insecurity or they actually hate themselves. But the data don't back it up. Even if you measure self-esteem in a subtle, unconscious way, deep down inside, narcissists think they're awesome. It's important to understand that this is a myth because when people act like jerks and they behave narcissistically, often others will say that the solution is that they really need to boost their self-esteem. Well, that's not going to help. That's exactly their problem."

 

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2009/04/21/7-myths-about-narcissism-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder

 

 

So... we were talking about being cocky and arrogant, not narcissistic. Can we agree that one can be cocky and arrogant and no be narcissistic?

 

Cocky is defined, by the World English Dictionary, as; Excessively proud of oneself.

 

Arrogant is defined as; having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability, etc; conceited; overbearingly proud

 

Esteem is defined as; to regard highly or favorably; regard with respect or admiration

 

Low self esteem would then need to mean one does NOT regard themselves highly or favorably, with respect or admiration

 

Clearly the concepts of being cocky and arrogant are polar opposites to low self esteem, therefore, the two cannot possibly exist within the same person. One either has high regard for themselves, or they do not.

 

 

There is a reason that many people avoid the cocky and arrogant besides finding them annoying. Most of the time they are emotional vampires that suck the life and vitality out of others. And they are often the main people found in affairs, sucking the life out of the unsuspecting.

 

Oh no! The demon beasts are psychically fanged as well!

 

Actually, on this point, I agree. Many people who are cocky and arrogant would very much be psychic vampires - feeding off everyone around them. Nothing wrong with a god sucking the life out of his or her minions. Most gods these days are tpo lazy to do their own sucking - they require psychic feeding through regular worship and praise!

[SoMovinOn]

Also' date=' I stated my post wasn't about "most people" on this forum. It was about most people "that are former OPs". Most former OPs have had a negative outcome with an affair.[/quote']

 

So you're saying the sample is even more skewed? Limited to only those who have had a negative outcome?

 

Would you think it reasonable to look at only people who have had a negative outcome, and conclude everyone involved in an A has a negative outcome?

[SoMovinOn]

The trait that seems more common with narcissists is the inability to care for others.

 

Hey! That's almost my answer to another post! (I haven't gotten to it yet, but keep that in mind)

[woinlove]

Of course it does. You are looking at a specific subset of a group. It would be the same as looking at a group of blue cars, and coming to the conclusion all cars are blue.

 

(Sorry... I'm a guy - it's always a car analogy)

 

 

 

 

From an article "7 Myths About Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder" ... the top two ...

 

"1. Narcissism is really high self-esteem. No, it's not. Someone can have really high self-esteem and not be narcissistic. The key difference is that people high in self-esteem focus on relationships and narcissists are missing that piece about caring about relationships. They want to know what other people can do for them, but in terms of having close emotional relationships, they don't care.

 

2. Deep down, narcissists are insecure and have low self-esteem. People assume that narcissists must be concealing some deep insecurity or they actually hate themselves. But the data don't back it up. Even if you measure self-esteem in a subtle, unconscious way, deep down inside, narcissists think they're awesome. It's important to understand that this is a myth because when people act like jerks and they behave narcissistically, often others will say that the solution is that they really need to boost their self-esteem. Well, that's not going to help. That's exactly their problem."

 

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2009/04/21/7-myths-about-narcissism-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder

 

 

So... we were talking about being cocky and arrogant, not narcissistic. Can we agree that one can be cocky and arrogant and no be narcissistic?

 

Cocky is defined, by the World English Dictionary, as; Excessively proud of oneself.

 

Arrogant is defined as; having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability, etc; conceited; overbearingly proud

 

Esteem is defined as; to regard highly or favorably; regard with respect or admiration

 

Low self esteem would then need to mean one does NOT regard themselves highly or favorably, with respect or admiration

 

Clearly the concepts of being cocky and arrogant are polar opposites to low self esteem, therefore, the two cannot possibly exist within the same person. One either has high regard for themselves, or they do not.

 

 

 

 

Oh no! The demon beasts are psychically fanged as well!

 

Actually, on this point, I agree. Many people who are cocky and arrogant would very much be psychic vampires - feeding off everyone around them. Nothing wrong with a god sucking the life out of his or her minions. Most gods these days are tpo lazy to do their own sucking - they require psychic feeding through regular worship and praise!

 

Cocky and arrogant are typically displayed as behaviors. A person can consistently act cocky and arrogant and yet have a very low opinion of themselves. People might say that person is "cocky and arrogant" when they are simply referring to how that person presents themselves to others.

[SoMovinOn]

What I see here is a LOT of people wishing they could write their own future but, unfortunately, being woefully unable to do so - even when they wait over half a decade hoping for the script to come to fruition.

 

True. Some people just want to believe every A is a horrible, terrible experience for everyone involved. They are so extremely biased they cannot fathom the reality that it isn't true.

[SoMovinOn]

How can someone who's in an affair with a MM or MW maintain any level of self-esteem when they have to live a lie?

 

In the biker community, there is a big thing about respect. One has little regard for how they treat or the impact they have upon those they don't respect.

 

 

-can't admit to your friends or family that the one you love is actually married

 

Why can't you? Everyone I know knows who I am dating, and that she is M.

 

-their MW/MM will be spending important holidays with their spouse and family while their OW/OM will be spending it alone?

 

Why would I spend it alone rather than spending it with my family?

 

-their MW/MM is still sleeping in the same bed with their spouse, still having sex with them and sharing intimacy?

 

If you're involved in a A, you know what you're dealing with. How does anyone who is married or involved in any romantic relationship know their spouse or love isn't sleeping with someone else? Based on the number of A's going on, there's a good chance you're sharing too.

 

 

How can one maintain self-esteem when they have to consider that they're nothing but secret sloppy seconds?

 

By not buying into such childish thinking?

By getting there first?

 

 

-they are a dirty little secret?

 

Dirty, eh? I showered. Secret... yeah, you got me on that one.

I'm good with it. My A was a choice. No one forced me into it. If I thought it would hurt my self esteem, or my cocky and arrogant attitude, I wouldn't have even started.

[SoMovinOn]

I have not done a study, but on this point I'd be willing to bet that in the real world, we would not see a drastic amount of evidence pointing to that argument.

 

I suspect you are young and missed a couple of decades or so of "Free love", when everyone was doing everyone else and, without the brainwashing to let them know they were supposed to feel bad about it and end up with low self esteem, most everyone managed to have a good time with it and came out relatively unscathed.

[SoMovinOn]

Great post! Those they post in defense of affairs are oftentimes the same one's who are still in an affair.

 

As for the rest of us that have been in past affairs they assume that we are bitter and mean because it didn't have the desired outcome (we didn't get the mm/mw) while refusing to realize that it's because we've grown and realized that an affair is not a suitable or healthy relationship. Hindsight is a really good thing. With that said, there are posters who have graduated from an affair to a relationship with the former ap who also have the same viewpoint in that an affair was not a healthy relationship and some are brave enough to share their real life struggles and the special challenges they face because of the affair dynamic in the past. To those who are real and frank and honest, my hat is off to them too.

 

Those that post that affairs are all evil and bad or often times the same ones who are bitter over the outcome of their A, or are BS's who ended up on the short end.

 

There are posters who have grown and realized...

There are posters who have graduated... and have the same viewpoint...

 

Yes.

 

... and there are people who are in A's or who have been who had no problem with it.

 

... and there are people who are in A's who did it, ended it, and moved on to something else without a negative view of the A.

 

... and there are people who were in an A and the outcome, whatever it was, was exactly what they wanted it to be.

 

... and there are people who were in A's who ended up married to their AP and lived happily ever after (or as happily as any married couple can be)

 

... and there are people who were in A's and ended it by committing suicide, thus, never posting here about how awful the experience was.

 

So... to get a truer picture, we'd want to look at a broad sample off all people involved in A's, rather than a the limited subset we see on LS.

[SoMovinOn]

Like I have said....I have yet to come across a soul who after ending their A, years later wishes they had stayed put. If such a one exists and is currently lurking, please come forward and share to provide some contrast for my line of thinking. Do such folks exist? There may be some but I'm not convinced that most or even many people feel that way.

 

In my younger, single, days, I was involved with two married women (at different times). Both were very enjoyable experiences for me. Both ended well (more a matter of circumstance and logistics than anything else). Neither had any negative consequences, and, if I were single and the opportunity came up now, I'd love to spend time with either of them.

 

... but then, I suppose, providing myself as an example will just be more fodder for some people here to wag their righteous fingers and point out how truly evil I am!

[jthorne]

I suspect you are young and missed a couple of decades or so of "Free love", when everyone was doing everyone else and, without the brainwashing to let them know they were supposed to feel bad about it and end up with low self esteem, most everyone managed to have a good time with it and came out relatively unscathed.

LMAO!

You conveniently forgot about the meteoric rise of herpes and syphillis during that time.

[Silly_Girl]

... but then, I suppose, providing myself as an example will just be more fodder for some people here to wag their righteous fingers and point out how truly evil I am!

 

It's all denial!!! If you're not lying to others you're lying to yourself. Or both.

 

You'll learn. :lmao:

[Silly_Girl]

Thanks, but you really didn't answer the question.

 

It's all there. We know you're capable of trawling. If you want to know my point of view, read my posts. I doubt my point of view is what you're after.

[White Flower]

I can see where you question comes from but I think it's situational and like all things you can't force fit one hypothesis onto the set of all circumstances.

 

I'm sure there are many cases where self-esteem plays a central role in starting an A. I know in my case it wasn't about self-esteem it was about having a connection with someone, having someone that knew me well, understood me well at a very personal level that created a unique closeness. I wasn't looking for an A, nor was she, but it happened because we both reached a point where we realized we were getting in deep and didn't want to give-up what we had. I don't really have any trace-backs that tell me it was rooted in self-esteem.

 

Exactly. For many people As are about love and have nothing to do with low self-esteem. I no longer loved my H; MM no longer loved his W, so a gap was filled with each other's love--and where does it say that wanting love is pathetic? Both of us have healthy views of ourselves so esteem isn't an issue.

 

Like circular said, it's situational.

[jthorne]

It's all there. We know you're capable of trawling. If you want to know my point of view, read my posts. I doubt my point of view is what you're after.

I'm very sorry, but some of us are not able to be here day and night, nor are they able to read every one of every one else's posts. Most of us simply don't have that much time.

 

All is well though. Sometimes a non-answer is more telling than a written one.

[MissBee]

I suspect you are young and missed a couple of decades or so of "Free love", when everyone was doing everyone else and, without the brainwashing to let them know they were supposed to feel bad about it and end up with low self esteem, most everyone managed to have a good time with it and came out relatively unscathed.

 

Funny, I thought free love, was free and open and sex driven and not secret affairs involving emotional attachments and secretly trying to sustain an outside relationship....

 

And funny how everyone is brainwashed nowadays against this...but yet some folks choose open marriages, some are polyamorous, polygamous and swingers....living OPENLY and happily without the burden of having a clandestine A.

 

Funny how most here seem to have little issue with the folks delineated above but find those partaking in secret As, complicating their lives over their secret A and lamenting over it on LS to be not very convincing that somehow secret As are the way to go....

 

And funny how the free love movement was intended to free relations from the regulation of the government and was not about promoting secret affairs....and the promiscuity that ensued was a bastardization of the original purpose.

 

I see no comparison between secret As and free love, in either the legal sense, that anyone is trying to make having an A illegal or the more popular sense, that people just don't want folks to sex up and love who they choose...you can, freely and openly without it being a secret A....