Being in an affair robs you of your self-esteem?

[SBC]

Is this a common truth? It hasn't been my experience. Where does that 'training' come from? Is it learned as a child, or in early romantic relationships?

 

 

 

I agree. But healthy relationships do the opposite--they build you up.

 

In affairs, the cards are stacked against you from the start. It is very likely that you are going to take a hit at some point. The Red Flag is usually right there, from the start, to heed or ignore.

 

I don't think anybody who enters an affair anticipates that--months and years down the line--they will still be in an affair, and feel powerless to end it (powerless to force MP to make a choice, and powerless to walk away). That reality has got to be a hit to the self esteem. How could it not?

 

Powerless to walk away? A person with good esteem is never powerless to walk away from something that is damaging to them.

 

And very few adults are so sheltered that when they choose to enter an affair they do not understand what it is and its possible ramifications.

 

Again, to me, this is blame-shifting and responsibility dodging. "I didn't know" or "I couldn't help it"

 

The real trick in all of this is figuring out WHY one chose to enter such a damaging set of circumstances in the first place. There is a reason and it is not love.

[woinlove]

This is what I am going for here --there are people like OWoman. I would think that no one would argue that she has low self esteem even though she has been in multiple affairs. In fact, she underlines my point --affairs DO NOT cause low self esteem.

 

So I am definately not saying that everyone in affairs has low self esteem. But for those here that struggle with NC, or willingly suffer the anger and humiliation --yes, they have low self esteem issues, otherwise they would have no problem saying "see ya ahole!"

 

Because someone with good esteem would never allow themselves to be hurt like that.

 

I don't know how you can assert the bold. I think you are wrong to claim that every case fits your idea that having an affair does not cause low self esteem. In some cases, the person can end up with low self-esteem because of how they behaved in the A, while if they had avoided the A altogether, their self-esteem would be intact.

 

People can lower their self-esteem through their choices and actions and can also be affected by the actions of others. Frozensprouts explained that her self-esteem took a hit as a BS and then recovered. Similarly, someone's self esteem can take a hit while being another part of the triangle and then recover to pre-affair levels.

[SBC]

I don't know how you can assert the bold. I think you are wrong to claim that every case fits your idea that having an affair does not cause low self esteem. In some cases, the person can end up with low self-esteem because of how they behaved in the A, while if they had avoided the A altogether, their self-esteem would be intact.

 

People can lower their self-esteem through their choices and actions and can also be affected by the actions of others. Frozensprouts explained that her self-esteem took a hit as a BS and then recovered. Similarly, someone's self esteem can take a hit while being another part of the triangle and then recover to pre-affair levels.

 

Wait, let me rethink this

Edited September 2, 2011 by SBC

[xxoo]

And very few adults are so sheltered that when they choose to enter an affair they do not understand what it is and its possible ramifications..

 

I've not been in an affair, and I do agree with your points from my own perspective.

 

But after reading these boards for a year, it seems to me that many people HONESTLY can not extrapolate out how getting involved with a married person will likely end. Or simply do not have a basic understanding of boundaries, for example: do not become the cute married guy's sounding board. He should not be confiding in a single woman! Red Flag!

 

I don't think it is a matter of being sheltered. I was sheltered, with my two loving parents in a healthy marriage, and these things have been obvious to me from my early 20s.

[SBC]

I don't know how you can assert the bold. I think you are wrong to claim that every case fits your idea that having an affair does not cause low self esteem. In some cases, the person can end up with low self-esteem because of how they behaved in the A, while if they had avoided the A altogether, their self-esteem would be intact.

 

People can lower their self-esteem through their choices and actions and can also be affected by the actions of others. Frozensprouts explained that her self-esteem took a hit as a BS and then recovered. Similarly, someone's self esteem can take a hit while being another part of the triangle and then recover to pre-affair levels.

 

Ok, so Frozensprouts was the BS? I guess I am not really referring to that side of the triangle --most BS don't make a choice to become one. SO, I can see how their esteem could take a hit. Whether it stays damaged is another matter though.

[xxoo]

Powerless to walk away? A person with good esteem is never powerless to walk away from something that is damaging to them. .

 

Of course, I agree!

 

But I think that is the argument for self-esteem eroding during the affair. In the beginning, it's fun, maybe feeling daring, maybe a rush, and feels good. I can handle this, and I'll walk away before it gets too bad.

 

And then, at some point, this isn't meeting all my needs, I am not satisfied with sharing, but I feel powerless to leave.

 

What happened between the two points?

[woinlove]

Ok, so Frozensprouts was the BS? I guess I am not really referring to that side of the triangle --most BS don't make a choice to become one. SO, I can see how their esteem could take a hit. Whether it stays damaged is another matter though.

 

Yes, but I still disagree with you statement regarding OW/OM. You seem to think an OW/OM's self esteem cannot be lowered by having an A. In other words, one enters an A with either high or low self-esteem and one should exit it with the same self-esteem. It doesn't work like that for everyone. For some, the A can lower their self-esteem.

 

People's self-esteem does not only have 2 values, it is a spectrum, and it does not need to be constant in time. People can be happy, feel good about themselves, and still make a poor decision and get involved in an R which erodes their self esteem. If they had good self esteem prior, they should be able to recover it once they end the R and move on. It is possible and it does happen. Not sure why you are so against acknowledging this, since you otherwise seem to have some good insights into the possibility that self-esteem issues can be a factor for some people when they first get involved in affairs.

[SBC]

Of course, I agree!

 

But I think that is the argument for self-esteem eroding during the affair. In the beginning, it's fun, maybe feeling daring, maybe a rush, and feels good. I can handle this, and I'll walk away before it gets too bad.

 

And then, at some point, this isn't meeting all my needs, I am not satisfied with sharing, but I feel powerless to leave.

 

What happened between the two points?

 

I see what you are saying. So, here is where I see a lowered self esteem playing in your scenario. The person started into this affair with these needs --they were already there. These "needs' were already established, admitted to or not. So, why did they choose a relationship that was not going to be able to meet these needs? That is the question. It is like a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

An OW with low self esteem does not believe (consciously or un) that their needs are worth meeting. That is why they choose a relationship that will not meet them.

[woinlove]

I see what you are saying. So, here is where I see a lowered self esteem playing in your scenario. The person started into this affair with these needs --they were already there. These "needs' were already established, admitted to or not. So, why did they choose a relationship that was not going to be able to meet these needs? That is the question. It is like a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

An OW with low self esteem does not believe (consciously or un) that their needs are worth meeting. That is why they choose a relationship that will not meet them.

 

Do you believe that a person with good self-esteem can never make a bad decision or show poor judgement or rationalize to fulfil some immediate desire?

[SBC]

Yes, but I still disagree with you statement regarding OW/OM. You seem to think an OW/OM's self esteem cannot be lowered by having an A. In other words, one enters an A with either high or low self-esteem and one should exit it with the same self-esteem. It doesn't work like that for everyone. For some, the A can lower their self-esteem.

 

People's self-esteem does not only have 2 values, it is a spectrum, and it does not need to be constant in time. People can be happy, feel good about themselves, and still make a poor decision and get involved in an R which erodes their self esteem. If they had good self esteem prior, they should be able to recover it once they end the R and move on. It is possible and it does happen. Not sure why you are so against acknowledging this, since you otherwise seem to have some good insights into the possibility that self-esteem issues can be a factor for some people when they first get involved in affairs.

 

I am not against acknowledging it --I am still trying to figure it out

 

In my mind, there are those that enter an A with good self esteem and they leave with it. It is almost like a lifestyle choice --there is one OW here in particular that fits this profile. People with good self esteem have stong boundaries and they know their own minds. The actions of others do not affect how they feel about themselves. They do not accept being repeatedly lied to, or used. They know and understand their own worth, and move on to better things. They work it until it no longer works for them, and then bu-bye. You wont find them here on LS crying about being used, or oh the lies, the lies!

 

And then there are others that feel like they have good esteem, but they really don't...otherwise they would not get themselves into such a sitch. They repeatedly allow themselves to be lied to, or used. They accept crumbs. Their esteem may go lower during the affair, but they started off low to begin with. They are the ones on here saying how humiliated they felt. They are the ones struggling daily with NC after 6 months.

 

and I am not sitting in judgment of anyone. Because I know that I was there, but once I began to address my esteem issues, I could start to move on. As long as I did not feel good about myself, it felt normal (for lack of a better word) to be a victim of his actions.

 

I think I am not communicating well here --I am trying.

[xxoo]

The person started into this affair with these needs --they were already there. These "needs' were already established, admitted to or not. So, why did they choose a relationship that was not going to be able to meet these needs? That is the question. It is like a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

The needs may change with the emotional attachment.

 

In the beginning, all I want or need from this married guy is someone to chat with at lunch. I'm flattered by his attention. I don't have feelings for him. It is meeting my need for attention and friendship, and I like helping him with his problems.

 

Now I'm attracted to him. Not in love, but the sexual attraction is mutual and strong. What I need from him is sweaty sex. I don't need him fulltime. It is meeting my needs. Maybe I'm dating other guys, but the sex isn't as exciting with them.

 

Now I'm in love. He is the first thing I think of when I wake up in the morning. I don't want to date other men. I want him. This is not meeting my needs.

[SBC]

Do you believe that a person with good self-esteem can never make a bad decision or show poor judgement or rationalize to fulfil some immediate desire?

 

No, not at all. We all make mistakes.

 

But I do believe that a person with good esteem will not be struggling with NC months later. I believer a person with good esteem will not suffer through years of lies and multiple D days, only to cry here, why? why?! WHY!!

 

And I believe that a person with good esteem would never say, he/his actions made me feel bad about myself.

[SBC]

The needs may change with the emotional attachment.

 

In the beginning, all I want or need from this married guy is someone to chat with at lunch. I'm flattered by his attention. I don't have feelings for him. It is meeting my need for attention and friendship, and I like helping him with his problems.

 

Now I'm attracted to him. Not in love, but the sexual attraction is mutual and strong. What I need from him is sweaty sex. I don't need him fulltime. It is meeting my needs. Maybe I'm dating other guys, but the sex isn't as exciting with them.

 

Now I'm in love. He is the first thing I think of when I wake up in the morning. I don't want to date other men. I want him. This is not meeting my needs.

 

To me, a person's needs are not dependent on, or defined by, another person. This is where people run into problems. It is also (i think) why men often claim that a woman 'changes' after a while --because she does not understand her needs, and cannot articulate them to a potential mate. And then when she gets into a relationship, instead of understanding and clearly defining her needs, she simply goes with the flow, expecting him to be able to follow. And then he starts squealing "bait and switch!" Because in the beginining ---the woman was there to meet his needs and now all of a sudden, she is expecting him to meet hers, which heretofore, where undefined.

 

And this holds true in a lot of R, not just A

[Spark1111]

No, not at all. We all make mistakes.

 

But I do believe that a person with good esteem will not be struggling with NC months later. I believer a person with good esteem will not suffer through years of lies and multiple D days, only to cry here, why? why?! WHY!!

 

And I believe that a person with good esteem would never say, he/his actions made me feel bad about myself.

 

Interesting thread!

 

Much has been written about attachment styles which are learned in childhood.

 

Your attachment to another depends on how much or little attention your parents paid to you starting in infancy.

 

If you had parents who were emotionally unavailable or distracted or not attentive enough, this becomes your template for all future relationships.

 

Someone unavailable or only intermittantly attentive feels like true love to that adult.

 

Can that erode self-esteem? Certainly as you can feel it wasn't enough, it still isn't enough, but I do not deserve more.

 

Tough cycle to break without intensive therapy.

[woinlove]

No, not at all. We all make mistakes.

 

But I do believe that a person with good esteem will not be struggling with NC months later. I believer a person with good esteem will not suffer through years of lies and multiple D days, only to cry here, why? why?! WHY!!

 

And I believe that a person with good esteem would never say, he/his actions made me feel bad about myself.

 

Re bold, this says nothing about when the low self-esteem started. Some of those described with your bolded statement will have entered the A with high self-esteem and some with low self-esteem.

 

Not sure what you mean by your final statement and "never". As one BS described, the discovery of your spouse's affair can temporarily lower your self-esteem. That happens and it does seem to be connected to the WS's actions. I do think when we really love someone and that person does something to make us seriously question the R, it can affect our self-esteem. Even people with high self-esteem can have low points in self-esteem which are brought on by external conditions or other people's behavior. However, those with high self-esteem will typically recover, and the low point is just that - not a new lowered level that is permanent.

[SBC]

Interesting thread!

 

Much has been written about attachment styles which are learned in childhood.

 

Your attachment to another depends on how much or little attention your parents paid to you starting in infancy.

 

If you had parents who were emotionally unavailable or distracted or not attentive enough, this becomes your template for all future relationships.

 

Someone unavailable or only intermittantly attentive feels like true love to that adult.

 

Can that erode self-esteem? Certainly as you can feel it wasn't enough, it still isn't enough, but I do not deserve more.

 

Tough cycle to break without intensive therapy.

 

I agree, it is very tough. But it is extremely doable. Just making that initial curious inquiry into why I am doing this to myself is the hardest part though. The admitting and accepting that it is not (s)he and his/her behavior causing the anguish, but that it is your behavior of repeatedly stabbing yourself in the eye with the fork that is causing such pain. This alone goes a long way towards healing.

[SBC]

Re bold, this says nothing about when the low self-esteem started. Some of those described with your bolded statement will have entered the A with high self-esteem and some with low self-esteem.

 

Not sure what you mean by your final statement and "never". As one BS described, the discovery of your spouse's affair can temporarily lower your self-esteem. That happens and it does seem to be connected to the WS's actions. I do think when we really love someone and that person does something to make us seriously question the R, it can affect our self-esteem. Even people with high self-esteem can have low points in self-esteem which are brought on by external conditions or other people's behavior. However, those with high self-esteem will typically recover, and the low point is just that - not a new lowered level that is permanent.

 

Again, I am not talking about betrayed spouses here. I am talking about people that make a choice to enter a relationship that from its outset have imposed limitations.

 

And the people in that bolded statement will never have high self esteem. Good self esteem would not allow it, you know why? Because they are off feeling good about themselves doing something else. A person with good esteem is not going to allow their precious time to be wasted by something like that. They will say to themselves, well, that was F-ed up. What a jerk. And they will be onto the next thing.

[xxoo]

To me, a person's needs are not dependent on, or defined by, another person. This is where people run into problems. It is also (i think) why men often claim that a woman 'changes' after a while --because she does not understand her needs, and cannot articulate them to a potential mate. And then when she gets into a relationship, instead of understanding and clearly defining her needs, she simply goes with the flow, expecting him to be able to follow. And then he starts squealing "bait and switch!" Because in the beginining ---the woman was there to meet his needs and now all of a sudden, she is expecting him to meet hers, which heretofore, where undefined.

 

And this holds true in a lot of R, not just A

 

The base needs remain the same, but the perception of what I need from this person, or this relationship can change with emotional attachment. Most don't conciously choose to grow feelings for someone inappropriate. Usually boundaries were stepped over, and red flags disregarded, but many seem truly blind to the warning signs.

[woinlove]

Again, I am not talking about betrayed spouses here. I am talking about people that make a choice to enter a relationship that from its outset have imposed limitations.

 

And the people in that bolded statement will never have high self esteem. Good self esteem would not allow it, you know why? Because they are off feeling good about themselves doing something else. A person with good esteem is not going to allow their precious time to be wasted by something like that. They will say to themselves, well, that was F-ed up. What a jerk. And they will be onto the next thing.

 

No one is arguing that at that stage in the A they are displaying low self-esteem. But you skipped over the issue of when their self-esteem became low. You really seem stuck on the idea that affairs can't ever affect one's self esteem despite acknowledging that people with high self esteem can show poor judgement and make bad decisions. I'll bow out.

[SBC]

No one is arguing that at that stage in the A they are displaying low self-esteem. But you skipped over the issue of when their self-esteem became low. You really seem stuck on the idea that affairs can't ever affect one's self esteem despite acknowledging that people with high self esteem can show poor judgement and make bad decisions. I'll bow out.

 

I am sorry you are leaving the conversation.

 

The first time, or the first few times that lies are revealed, or certainly the first Dday in which the MP goes back to the wife would be more than enough for a person with good esteem to figure out that this is not working for them.

 

Making a bad decision is human, making the same bad decision over and over is demonstrative of low self esteem.

[MissBee]

But this would be the dynamic in ANY relationship --because what I see happen so often (even in my own case) instead of saying "F-YOU BUDDY!" we say, "whine, why aren't you calling me?" or "whimper, why aren't you texting me?" and "but I love you!" and so and so on.

 

In other words we get needy. And then we turn into cling-ons. And no one wants a cling on.

 

What changed the dynamic for me was when I faced my inner demons.

 

Why the hell was I so desperate for this (or any) guy's attention? Well, I had lots and lots of issues to work though --a divorce, fear and plenty of childhood BS, but as I slowly and painfully addressed these, something in my life changed. I began to get strong. And interesting. Not only to MM, but to other men as well --and that is when everything changed.

So, I posit that the affair does not cause the initial erosion of self esteem, but that there are deeper issues that lead us into temptation.

 

That is my stance on the matter as well. I do believe that gravitating towards an affair in the first place usually speaks to some prior issue versus you were perfectly fine and then an affair came along and ruined you.

[xxoo]

I am sorry you are leaving the conversation.

 

The first time, or the first few times that lies are revealed, or certainly the first Dday in which the MP goes back to the wife would be more than enough for a person with good esteem to figure out that this is not working for them.

 

Making a bad decision is human, making the same bad decision over and over is demonstrative of low self esteem.

 

Lies to who? The BS, or the AP?

 

It can be many months before a dday occurs, or an AP realizes that the MP lied to them. At that point, involvement in the affair may have already affected the self-esteem.

[Quiet Storm]

A person with good esteem is not going to allow their precious time to be wasted by something like that. They will say to themselves, well, that was F-ed up. What a jerk. And they will be onto the next thing.

 

I think for an intelligent, mature person this is true. We know that the simple fact that a guy is married and flirting with us, is a huge red flag this this dude has issues.

 

But I think you can be very gullible and naive and have high self esteem.

 

Many OW believe MM lies. They think he is good person in a bad situation. They sympathize with him. They take his words at face value.

 

This doesn't mean they have low self-esteem. It means they are trusting. They see the good in people. They haven't developed those internal bells that ding when something doesn't sound right. Maybe they have had a sheltered life, maybe they have never been deceived, maybe they are immature and (no offense) but maybe they are just not too bright....?

 

They don't think they are second place. They believe MM that they are soul mates. In OW mind, she is not settling for less because she doesn't see that she is getting a lying, manipulative, weak, conflict avoiding, cheater with poor coping skills. She believes she is getting a great guy that realizes he is with the wrong woman, and that he will be leaving her. The wife rarely even enters her mind, because the wife is non-issue. In her mind, MM & BW relationship is OVER.

 

They make assumptions, based on naive beliefs.

 

They must be so special if MM would risk it all! MM is cheating so that must mean he wants a divorce! MM wouldn't pursue me if he still wanted his wife! MM loves sex with me, so he no longer attracted to his wife! MM is miserable at home and that means he is going to leave!

 

All of those assumptions are the result of not have much life experience. Romantic ideas put into the heads of little girls watching Disney movies. If a man pursues me he wants to be with me forever!

 

So in the beginning, a naive OW takes his actions as a sign that he is really interested in a long term relationship with her. A more mature, worldy woman will be more suspicious of his motives.

 

I don't think that has anything to with self esteem, just life experience.

 

However, if d-day happens and MM stays with the wife, if OW catches MM in lies...things change.

 

OW was so certain, so sure of his love for her and the SHOCK she feels, the BETRAYAL, the deep sadness, after believing him wholeheartedly...that sudden blow is traumatizing, and can definitely result in low self esteem, and even PTSD.

 

Now she questions everything about herself and what she thought she knew about the world, and whether she can really trust anyone, whether she can even trust her own judgement.

 

I don't think that scenario is that uncommon. Many OW start out confident, content and happy. And it's the relationship that tears them down, and before you know it they can't even remember how to be that happy girl anymore.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Quiet Storm

[Spark1111]

I agree, it is very tough. But it is extremely doable. Just making that initial curious inquiry into why I am doing this to myself is the hardest part though. The admitting and accepting that it is not (s)he and his/her behavior causing the anguish, but that it is your behavior of repeatedly stabbing yourself in the eye with the fork that is causing such pain. This alone goes a long way towards healing.

 

One of my favorite quotes:

 

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result." --Albert Einstein:laugh:

 

Or, as paraphrased by Dr. Phil: "So how's that working for 'ya?":lmao:

[Spark1111]

I think this is a awesome post and portrays accurately how it happens a lot of the time but yet a person who is firm in considering mp off limits would never have taken the 1st walk in the dark.

 

I agree with this!

 

And I still remain amazed at what is assumed, but never discussed in an affair relationship.

 

Whether it be naivete, low self-esteem, a lack of street smarts, daddy issues, or magical or projective thinking, at some point you have to talk yourself out of rational thought: THIS VERY LIKELY WILL NOT BE HEALTHY FOR ME. I COULD GET HURT HERE.

 

You have to try very hard to persuade yourself from following your gut instinct, whether it be constant romanticizing, naivete, low self-esteem, rationalization, justification, or plain old denial.

 

It takes a million steps to get into a full-blown affair. You said something every single step of the way that allowed you to take the next one.