Thoughts on MM who get stuck

[fooled once]

You might "see" things differently alright, but not with much fact.

She drew up the separation papers herself (no lawyer), and yes I did see them. He is not leaving until they have both signed a separation agreement that they MUTUALLY agree upon. I would not leave my home or family either, under those conditions, unless I had some legal paperwork to protect my rights as well.

 

Case in point: we have a mutual friend who wanted to divorce his wife... they had a big fight one night and he slept out at a buddy's... she changed the locks while he was at work the next day, and refused him entry to the home thereafter. It took two months to get an appointment with the Court to allow him access to his child.

 

That is very odd. Must not be in the states because I know courts will have emergency custody hearings and not wait 2 months for a parent to have access to their kids.

 

As for separation agreements, those can be negotiated while a separation is ongoing. Many agreements require a years physical separation before a divorce hearing is even scheduled. Negotiations can continue while the parties are living separate and apart. Doesn't mean one party abandons the other party.

 

As for $$ regarding alimony and child support, most states have their own guidelines. For example, in my divorce, the state guidelines were xx dollars. My ex and I negotiated a much lower rate and the judge accepted it. He did question it and I stated i agreed to it so he signed off on it. Some states mandate alimony. Some states have a time limit. Also, many times a mediator is called in to negotiate so that lawyer fees are reduced. It is all rather civilized.

 

How old are the kids? I guess I don't understand how he has time for you or the kids ... what I mean is if he is off having an affair with you, where are his kids? If he is with his kids, then when does he have time for an affair? For reading here and in real life, it seems like the cheating parent isn't spending time with the kids while having the affair, but as soon as there is talk of divorce, all of a sudden the cheating parent can't bear to be away from the children A good dad makes time for his kids. A good dad doesn't need to be with his kids 24/7 to have a great relationship. Additionally, many parents get week day time with the kids in addition to weekend time. Isn't it more beneficial for the children to not have to live in a negative hostile environment? When the two parents are more concerned about screwing each other over (and I am not saying this is the MM's situation in your case) the children are the ones who get hurt by living with angry, vengeful, hostile people. The damage that is done due to that can be long lasting.

 

If you are confident in the two of you, why not back away and let him sort this out. I don't understand if he loves you and wants a future with you why he seems unable to decide to end the marriage How long has the affair been going on? When did you two decide that this was going to be more than just an affair? When that was decided, wasn't the decision made then to divorce? Why does it sound like he hasn't even figured out yet if that is what he wants?

[2sunny]

=Cabin;3616394]Thank you xxoo.

My AP has not lead me to believe anything. We talk openly about what we want, and he has footnoted all of our future plans with the reality that he will not leave if it's going to cause irreparable harm to his children.

 

his kids - HIS relationship with HIS kids isn't dependent on whether or not he is married to their mother. if a child chooses - they can have a relationship with any parent - so long as it's possible that the parent doesn't act in a harmful way while leaving... or has done irreparable harm in their past.

 

HIS R with his kids will remain if he is a decent Dad. kids WANT to love their parents - so it's ALWAYS best never to say anything harmful to the kids about the other parent - no matter how bad it may get.

 

i COULD have stated a million angry words about my exH - but i never did - i want my kids to be capable of loving whomever they choose to love. a divorce doesn't change that for them if both parents act in the best interest of the kids - it's private - so speak in private about concerns.

 

his excuse looks just that - an excuse to stay.

 

 

he will find a way to make our relationship legitimate.

 

don't be so sure. he isn't a divorced man yet and his actions aren't showing evidence that he DEFINITELY is leaving.

[Mme. Chaucer]

A man with young children at home, who's an active father, will have to be very ready to cause them harm if he's ready to leave his marriage.

 

I know that sometimes it is better for the kids to have a miserable parent leave than it is for them if a miserable parent is around, being ... miserable.

 

But, I stand firm in this: all the lying is creating toxicity that is a PRESENCE in the children's life right now. They are gaslighted just as their mother is. It is NOT going to be fine.

[Cabin]

How old are the kids? I guess I don't understand how he has time for you or the kids ... what I mean is if he is off having an affair with you, where are his kids? If he is with his kids, then when does he have time for an affair? For reading here and in real life, it seems like the cheating parent isn't spending time with the kids while having the affair, but as soon as there is talk of divorce, all of a sudden the cheating parent can't bear to be away from the children A good dad makes time for his kids. A good dad doesn't need to be with his kids 24/7 to have a great relationship. Additionally, many parents get week day time with the kids in addition to weekend time. Isn't it more beneficial for the children to not have to live in a negative hostile environment? When the two parents are more concerned about screwing each other over (and I am not saying this is the MM's situation in your case) the children are the ones who get hurt by living with angry, vengeful, hostile people. The damage that is done due to that can be long lasting.

 

The children are young, grade school age. He does spend a lot of time with them. We see each other when they are in bed for the night, or before work in the morning (for breakfast) when they have already gone off to start their day. He is a very active parent.

 

If you are confident in the two of you, why not back away and let him sort this out. I don't understand if he loves you and wants a future with you why he seems unable to decide to end the marriage How long has the affair been going on? When did you two decide that this was going to be more than just an affair? When that was decided, wasn't the decision made then to divorce? Why does it sound like he hasn't even figured out yet if that is what he wants?

 

We have limited our contact until he knows where he is heading. I am using the time to sort out of the details of my new life when my H moves out.

 

The A has been going on for less than two years, and the decision to pursue a legitimate relationship was this past Spring. Why the delay? Neither of us is in a rush to create chaos if we can move towards separation more cleanly.

[2sunny]

Cabin - take care of you first. no one else is going to do that for you.

 

work on good balance. be aware not to hand him too much power. you deserve to be happy - with or without him.

[NoIDidn't]

I think he's already said everything he needs to to set the OP up for accepting that he can't leave because of his children.

[fooled once]

Cabin - take care of you first. no one else is going to do that for you.

 

work on good balance. be aware not to hand him too much power. you deserve to be happy - with or without him.

 

I agree.

 

Cabin, thanks for answering my questions about the kids ages and the length of the affair. I still think that you can back away and let him 'decide' what he wants. I know you firmly believe you will be fine if the affair ends, but I am willing to bet it will hurt you, just like it hurts most OW when the MM decides to stay married. Are you okay continuing the affair until the kids are grown? For your sake, I hope not. But, if that is what you want and are good with that, I wish you the best.

[wannabdone]

I wish you the best of luck too cabin. I have thought about staying before until the children are grown. but, then do you ever worry that there might be a different set of reasons then? Like the price of college, or she's too old to be left alone, or what have you?

 

Those are things I thought about when I was contimplating staying.

[jj33]

No, the Courts would not decide to let her take his kids and money away from him. Both go against the guiding principles in our family law act. But it's the process of getting to Court that is alarming.

 

She has made it very clear that she will waste time and money nitpicking every detail, contesting a divorce, coming up with claims that he is unfit to parent, raising concerns about the children's safety, withholding access... etc. to keep him where he is.

 

In the end, the Courts may grant him what is fair, but he's worried about what that level of acrimony would do to his children in the meantime. If she refuses him access, it typically takes 3-4 months to get a hearing with the family court to be granted access. In that time, she would be poisoning the children against him. That kind of damage doesn't heal.

 

Cabin unfortunately this is not an uncommon thing when people divorce. I mean hes not the first man on earth to have to go through this type of battle. Either hes up for the challenge of what it wil mean to go through a divorce or he is not that unhappy and would prefer the status quo.

 

I hope you arent buying this idea that his divorce will be more acrimonious than others and that his situation is unique. Its not. That the way it goes and when its done through lawyers the children see very little of it. Certainly no more acrimony than they would experience living in a house with a father who is having an A and wants out and a mother who is angry at their father and doing her best to make him stay.

 

Bottom line if he wants out he will get out. This is not unque to their fmaily.

[woinlove]

 

But, I stand firm in this: all the lying is creating toxicity that is a PRESENCE in the children's life right now. They are gaslighted just as their mother is. It is NOT going to be fine.

 

I agree with this. If their mother has turned from someone you described as a nice woman and wonderful mother just a few months ago, into what you now describe as threatening to use the children, the environment must already be toxic. It sounds like MM will not be honest, and the depth of his dishonesty creates an environment lacking in respect and kindness that impacts on the entire family.

 

It would be best if he ends that as quickly as possibly, and does not drag it out, since it seems unlikely he will choose to handle it more respectfully. Unfortunately, he may drag it out, teetering in his own mixture of guilt and rationalization, trying to manage it to look like a good guy or at least not such a bad guy, and not having enough awareness of the environment it is creating to realize the extra harm he is doing.

 

Don't bring more of that into your life than necessary. You said you don't need his money, so don't even involve yourself in the financial parts. While it may seem like helping when you support his vision of his wife as the bad person here, unreasonable or exhibiting "lunacy", it could just be fuelling him to continue longer on a path which makes the home environment more and more toxic.

[Cabin]

I know you firmly believe you will be fine if the affair ends, but I am willing to bet it will hurt you, just like it hurts most OW when the MM decides to stay married. Are you okay continuing the affair until the kids are grown? For your sake, I hope not. But, if that is what you want and are good with that, I wish you the best.

 

If this doesn't work out, of course, I will be heartbroken...

 

... but we don't learn much in life without a little pain (understatement) along the way.

 

But I think I have enough going for me that it is reasonable to think I will be able to date and meet someone else, and even if that isn't the case, I have a full life with friends, family, and a great career, many interests/hobbies, etc.

 

Loving him will still be worthwhile, you know?

 

As for staying until the children grow up, absolutely not.

 

We are meeting today to discuss continuing limited contact for the next year while he separates and then when he has his D papers, beginning to date. If in the next year the separation does not happen, then I will begin to date anyway. He knows this, and I think it bothers him enough to want to start making concrete plans.

 

He has an appointment with a mediator Monday.

[Cabin]

I have thought about staying before until the children are grown. but, then do you ever worry that there might be a different set of reasons then? Like the price of college, or she's too old to be left alone, or what have you?

.

 

He has told her that if she makes it impossible to leave without keeping his children's little spirits intact, that he will stay with her until they are grown, but then as soon as the last one is in post-secondary, he will leave.

 

That would put her in her 50s.

 

He's hoping she'll see that it's better to be single and rebuilding in your late 30s than your early 50s.

[jwi71]

He has told her that if she makes it impossible to leave without keeping his children's little spirits intact, that he will stay with her until they are grown, but then as soon as the last one is in post-secondary, he will leave.

 

Well, while D isn't the life-changing (for the worse) event that Hollywood and hallmark movies make it to be, it is also NOT pain or affect free. Their spirits WILL be hurt, their lives WILL be altered.

 

The key, according to me, is HOW the parents handle that. If they can truly place the kids first, and sometimes that means D is better, then, again according to me, the kids are better off.

 

I see it everyday. Oops, not EVERY day...I meant every day I have custody of my kids (50-50 split was SO easy to get - I asked for it).

 

Sorry Cabin, but I, as others have said, get the impression that he is NOT leaving. His choice. Which is sad because all he needs is to ask experts who have done nothing but spend their entire professional careers in this to tell him otherwise - an IC.

 

That would put her in her 50s.

 

Has NOTHING to do with her. This is all on your MM cabin, I hope you can see that. HE is USING his W as the excuse.

 

He's hoping she'll see that it's better to be single and rebuilding in your late 30s than your early 50s.

 

Wow...the W again. You know, she really dominates you two guys talks doesn't she? I mean, everything he CAN'T do is because of her. Pause a second here cabin and think....every reason he CAN'T leave is because of her.

 

He says:

 

SHE may make it hard on the kids

SHE wants half of my gross

SHE might hurt their spirits

SHE, SHE ,SHE

 

A subtle change in not being present 24x7 no?

 

Seeing a lawyer on Monday is good but pointless since he has already told the world he won't leave if she makes it hard on the kids (more power to the W again...again, she's in control). I really think he is using "Staying for the kids" as an excuse to stay. The information he needs (that D is NOT damning his kids to a lifetime of sorrow and misery) is readily available. He needs that more than a lawyer.

 

My advice to you is to point him to an IC. Any...pick one. Google away. The IC can help him understand that if he and his stbxw work together for the benefit of the kids that they will adjust, survive and thrive. Being D doesn't mean he has to be any LESS involved. He can ask his lawyer what he can do if his xW tries to keep him from reasonable access to his children...go on, have him ask.

 

Here's another thing cabin...why hasn't he filed for D?

And has he retained a lawyer? Every person in a D needs one, imo.

 

I would step back. Take a break from him and his drama. Instead of trying to influence his behavior, back off and see what he does on his own. Besides, you being in the picture makes it all the easier for him to stay.

 

Keep us posted....

[woinlove]

Has NOTHING to do with her. This is all on your MM cabin, I hope you can see that. HE is USING his W as the excuse.

 

 

 

Wow...the W again. You know, she really dominates you two guys talks doesn't she? I mean, everything he CAN'T do is because of her. Pause a second here cabin and think....every reason he CAN'T leave is because of her.

 

He says:

 

SHE may make it hard on the kids

SHE wants half of my gross

SHE might hurt their spirits

SHE, SHE ,SHE

 

Exactly. This point comes through very strongly in your posts, Cabin. MM is using his W as an excuse for his own actions and decisions.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

We are meeting today to discuss continuing limited contact for the next year while he separates and then when he has his D papers, beginning to date.

 

What does "limited contact" mean? Does this include sex?

 

Is your sexual relationship already over, for now at least?

 

When "dating" starts, what does that mean?

 

I don't understand how you can "begin" to date after you've been engaging in an intense sexual relationship, are already "in love" and have planned to spend the rest of your lives together.

 

That does not make sense to me.

 

Is this all fine with you? How do you reconcile all of these inconsistencies?

 

I can't wrap my mind around it, and I also can't imagine any outcome in this whole situation that seems like it would turn out to be a "happy ending" for anyone involved.

[alexandria35]

He has told her that if she makes it impossible to leave without keeping his children's little spirits intact, that he will stay with her until they are grown, but then as soon as the last one is in post-secondary, he will leave.

 

That would put her in her 50s.

 

He's hoping she'll see that it's better to be single and rebuilding in your late 30s than your early 50s.

 

MM: "That's it! I've thought it through and I've made a decision! I'm going to leave my wife and get a divorce so I can be with you, the one who makes me happy. I'm going to tell my wife of my decision and then I'm going to leave because I've made up my mind and nobody can stop me. Well nobody except my wife, if she gets upset or makes things difficult ,I will have to stay married for years and years."

[xxoo]

He's hoping she'll see that it's better to be single and rebuilding in your late 30s than your early 50s.

 

 

Is it? Maybe.

 

I've known some women who simply would not date with young kids. While I don't necessarily advocate that, I can understand their perspective.

 

She may also believe he is going through a midlife crisis (and maybe he is....), and believe that he'll be through it by then.

 

I hope the appt with the mediator is productive!

[2sunny]

He has told her that if she makes it impossible to leave without keeping his children's little spirits intact, that he will stay with her until they are grown, but then as soon as the last one is in post-secondary, he will leave.

 

That would put her in her 50s.

 

He's hoping she'll see that it's better to be single and rebuilding in your late 30s than your early 50s.

 

so you are dependent upon what he decides and he is dependent upon what his wife decides?

 

that is far removed than a decision to divorce... it's all really up to the wife - which gives her a lot of power over many lives.

 

she may never intend to divorce.

[Mme. Chaucer]

so you are dependent upon what he decides and he is dependent upon what his wife decides?

 

that is far removed than a decision to divorce... it's all really up to the wife - which gives her a lot of power over many lives.

 

she may never intend to divorce.

 

And, especially never intend to divorce in a way that is painless and easy for her husband, and then by extension for Cabin. Why would she? She still wants to be married to him, right?

[Cabin]

Here's another thing cabin...why hasn't he filed for D?

And has he retained a lawyer? Every person in a D needs one, imo.

 

I would step back. Take a break from him and his drama. Instead of trying to influence his behavior, back off and see what he does on his own. Besides, you being in the picture makes it all the easier for him to stay.

 

Keep us posted....

 

He hasn't filed for D for the same reason I haven't: we want to execute our affairs thoughtfully and with as little drama as possible.

 

My H and I just finished our separation agreement recently and will be filing for D shortly (though we will wait a year since we are not using infidelity as a reason for D).

 

We are not using lawyers, as I have stated in the past.

 

My AP is going to be examining the separation agreement his W produced with their mediator tomorrow. He fully expects her to kick him out of the house after their meeting, and so he has made living arrangements in case.

 

He has told all of his friends, and many of his family, that he intends to divorce. Two of his friends have referred him to their lawyers, so he is going to follow up with one of them in the coming weeks.

 

One of his friends -- a mutual friend of mine -- said that in his humble opinion, he thinks that marriage has about a 1% chance of survival over the next year or two...

 

So we shall see...

 

In the meantime, I am on the sidelines. Not waiting for him, though. Once my D is finalized I will probably begin dating and my AP is sufficiently worried that if he's not free when I'm ready to date, that I'll move on. If that sounds like a game, it isn't. I just told him I'm not going to wait indefinitely for him to make his decisions. And he has respect for that of course.

[donnamaybe]

He hasn't filed for D for the same reason I haven't: we want to execute our affairs thoughtfully and with as little drama as possible.

 

My H and I just finished our separation agreement recently and will be filing for D shortly (though we will wait a year since we are not using infidelity as a reason for D).

 

We are not using lawyers, as I have stated in the past.

 

My AP is going to be examining the separation agreement his W produced with their mediator tomorrow. He fully expects her to kick him out of the house after their meeting, and so he has made living arrangements in case.

 

He has told all of his friends, and many of his family, that he intends to divorce. Two of his friends have referred him to their lawyers, so he is going to follow up with one of them in the coming weeks.

 

One of his friends -- a mutual friend of mine -- said that in his humble opinion, he thinks that marriage has about a 1% chance of survival over the next year or two...

 

So we shall see...

 

In the meantime, I am on the sidelines. Not waiting for him, though. Once my D is finalized I will probably begin dating and my AP is sufficiently worried that if he's not free when I'm ready to date, that I'll move on. If that sounds like a game, it isn't. I just told him I'm not going to wait indefinitely for him to make his decisions. And he has respect for that of course.

It's good that you're D'ing for you and not for him. And you shouldn't feel bad about dating if he keeps dragging his feet. It's your life after all.

[Cabin]

Thought I'd share some developments:

 

-AP and W had their mediation appointment

-mediator agrees that terms of her separation agreement are unfair and would not be supported by law

-W has told him she needs the week to decide what she is going to do with respect to letting him stay in the house until arrangements are finalized or asking him to leave

-they are meeting again next week to negotiate a custody rotation that will suit both of them

-mediator cautioned her use of the children against him, despite the raw pain the W is in

-he's got a meeting with a lawyer booked

-I'm making a transition be move out of our share workplace

 

So, we'll see...

[Sexy T]

Amaazing post!

 

I completely empathize and agree. When I was with the taken guy, I believe he did love and care for me and he says he always will, but a relationship is built on so much more. You loving me from afar or loving me but not being able to give me the life I want, is unfortunately not enough. I believe in aiming for THE BEST and not just for what will suffice for now.

 

I do not believe one has "one soulmate"; therefore, I have and will always say, that perhaps you meeting someone you are a match for, but the circumstances are not right (i.e. they are married to another and not leaving anytime soon) then perhaps this is not "meant to be", but you simply located one of your potential matches and you should find one of your other matches, who will come with the right circumstances! That is the bottomline for me. I believe the guy from my former A was one of my matches, but he was not "the one", as he would never be able to give me the life I want. I do not believe that he was my last chance or that I needed to wait indefinitely for him. I believe that I will live and love and have a great love again and marry and be happy with someone who comes with the right set of circumstances and not just the love. I believe that if a married person is truly my "one"....then the circumstances will work themselves out and I will be his choice, no matter the difficulty. If I am not, for finances, kids, whatever the reason....then I thank him for the love but I have to move on to someone who I can build a life with.

 

Wow MissBee ~ I love your reasoning and I think a little light bulb just went off in my empty lil' head!!! Thank you for this!!!

[MissBee]

Wow MissBee ~ I love your reasoning and I think a little light bulb just went off in my empty lil' head!!! Thank you for this!!!

 

 

Welcome!

[MissBee]

Thought I'd share some developments:

 

-AP and W had their mediation appointment

-mediator agrees that terms of her separation agreement are unfair and would not be supported by law

-W has told him she needs the week to decide what she is going to do with respect to letting him stay in the house until arrangements are finalized or asking him to leave

-they are meeting again next week to negotiate a custody rotation that will suit both of them

-mediator cautioned her use of the children against him, despite the raw pain the W is in

-he's got a meeting with a lawyer booked

-I'm making a transition be move out of our share workplace

 

So, we'll see...

 

Sounds promising thus far...