Now I have a communication question.

[FolderWife]

As is OBVIOUS in my "male mail" thread, my husband and I CAN NOT communicate at all. I've been working on it for a year. He is the type that will get angry, and shut down. Any trying to talk to him doesn't work. He'll just sit and simmer, while I try to get answers out of him.

 

Like any typical man, he'll make jokes, to ease the tension of the conversation. Like the porno incident. I asked if all of the pay per views were porn, or if some were just movies (some titles didn't look porny to me) he made a silly voice (which he does when he's under pressure, and wants to lighten the load) and said, "They were all just regular movies..mmm hmm." Pretty much saying they are all pornos. I told him that some didn't look like porn titles. He said, "I wish you'd just drop it." I said, "I wish I would too." That's all I really got out of him. I tried to talk about it, but he just got angry and started yelling. So I left him alone.

 

See, he won't talk to me. If he has a problem, I wish he'd just come out and say it. The only problem I ever hear is that I'm a nag! I don't nag! I ask a simple question, he doesn't answer it straight, I reword it to get a straight answer, he gets angry.

 

Conversation:

 

Me: Were all those pay per views porn, or were some regular movies?

Him: What?

Me: Were all those pay per views porn, or were some regular movies?

Him: *in silly joking voice* They were all regular movies, mm hmm

Me: *laugh* Some of them were obviously porn. I just wanted to know if all of them were.

Him: What?

Me: Some of the pay per view titles looked like regular movies, were they all porn, or were some of them just regular movies?

Him: I wish you'd let this go.

Me: I wish I could to.

*silence*

Me: Does talking about this make you uncomfortable?

Him: No.

Me: Good.

*silence*

Me: So all of them were porn?

Him: WHAT!?!?!?!

Me: *standing up* Some of them looked like regular movies, and I wanted to make sure they were all porn, before I get upset about it.

Him: WHAT DO YOU MEAN SOME OF THEM LOOKED LIKE REGULAR MOVIES!? HOW CAN YOU TELL FROM A TITLE WHAT KIND OF MOVIE IT IS!?!?

Me: Well, you paid $10 for "Legal leg affair" so I figured it was porn.

Him: WHAT DOES IT MATTER!?!?!?!

Me: *leaves the room, because now he's angry, because I NAG him.*

 

See, this is the first conversation that I've tried to have with him about this. We can't get anywhere, because he gets angry at everything. I figured all of the pay per views were porn, but I wanted to make sure before I go accusing him of buying 8 pornos.

 

The only way I can EVER get a straight answer out of him, is if we are play fighting, and I bring it up. Then if I'm lucky he'll tell me how he feels about something, or why he did it, but sometimes he'll get mad at me for "running my mouth."

 

I can't ask him anything without him blowing up!

 

Now, I was at my wits end the other day, and as grace would have it, his aunt wanted to ride in his sports car, but she didn't want to hang out with the guys. It was just me her, and a bunch of guys there. So I volunteered to take her for a ride. We drove around for an hour, and I just poured my heart out about the problems me and Him are having. She told me about how he was always the quiet one, how he always shuts down when he's confronted, how his mom left when he was a boy (which I knew) how it effected him (which I didn't know...he won't open up about anything in his past, and if I try to get him to open up, he shuts down) She told about how he and his brother fought DAILY.

 

She gave me a LOT of insight into his childhood, which helps me understand him now.

 

The problem is, if I have a problem, I'm good about talking it out, and getting past it. He doesn't. If he has a problem, he just doesn't talk to me...sometimes for days. If I bring up a problem, he'll just get quiet for days. I can't talk to him. I can't tell him how I feel, or he gets mad and just shuts up! How do you talk to someone who just WON'T TALK. He refuses to talk about any issue. If I bring up an issue, he just sits quietly. Sometimes he'll act stupid like he didn't hear me, and ask, "What?" that's my cue to quit talking about it. He'll sit quietly until I hit a nerve, or ask the same question too many times, then he'll yell at me, then shut down again.

 

I try to talk over the phone, but he doesn't want to do that either, because "He's on a cordless, and the neighbors might hear it on a scanner".

 

Letters don't work, because he won't read them.

 

I'm at my wits end. If I have a problem, I'm expected to just not talk to him for a few days until I just magically get over it, and then we can be fine again. I do that sometimes, and sometimes it works, but some day the magically disappeared pain resurfaces, and it hurts all over again (sometimes months later) and what's the point of trying to deal with it then? Every inch of the instance is forgotten by him.

 

I don't get over things that I bury. If he hurts me, I can bury it after 2 or 3 weeks of working to bury it, but it always resurfaces, and then I'm mysteriously mad at him, and he doesn't know why...because all the pain of the buried instance comes back, and I don't know what to do with it, because I'm obviously not over it, because it's obviously not been dealt with, so I obviously become distant from him, and he obviously doesn't know why, so THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A PROBLEM!

 

I know our communication is going to destroy our marriage, but I don't know how to fix it. If I could just get off my chest how he hurts me, and figure out why he did what hurt me etc. then I could happily move on. He won't let me! He doesn't want to deal with any issues. He wants to pretend the problems just go away if we don't talk about them BUT THEY DONT! I wonder if he actually lets anything go. He acts like he does.

 

Maybe...

 

If I do something that bothers him, he won't tell me about it. He'll just simmer for a couple of days. Then he'll seem like he's over whatever it was that bothered him.

 

Then a few days later, he's simmering again.

 

I wish I could convince him to just talk! What's the big deal! Tell me what you're thinking! Big deal! Get it out, so I'll at least know what if anything I did wrong!

 

Let me talk it out! I'm not accusing him of anything, I just want to let him know how he made me feel, and get his reasons for doing so, and maybe he won't do the same thing again, or maybe I won't take whatever he did so personally next time.

 

GAAA!!!

[moimeme]

1. Read "Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus" .

2. Understand that communication goes two ways, and just because you want to communicate doesn't mean you're good at it. In this porn discussion, he knew darn well that if he told you what you wanted to hear, you'd get mad and tear a strip off him. How would you respond to a question posed as "I just want to find out if you did something I don't like before I rip you a new one"?

 

Some men don't like to admit they get upset or have any other feelings, because, of course, that means that they are not 'real' men since 'real' men are impervious. So they pretend that nothing bothers them.

 

There are ways to discuss issues and ways not to but if you've started off by doing the wrong things, don't expect a person to then believe that you've changed your ways.

 

I think the best thing to do (after 1 and 2 above) would be to go to a counsellor and both of you learn how to communicate with each other. Nobody wants to be the only wrong one - and right now, that's how he's feeling. He may be controlling (and his past might have something to do with that) but he may also just have real bad coping skills that a counsellor could help you both deal with.

 

His mom left him when he was young. Some people in those situations grow up unwilling to have any sort of 'conflict' because they subconsciously fear that the other person might go away and leave them, too. So they stifle all annoyances - or try to.

[FolderWife]

hmmm...he won't get councelling. He refuses to do anything to help me cope with anything, and he refuses to admit there are problems in our relationship.

 

I knew better than to try to rip him over the porn thing. There's no point. He may not have realized I felt that way though, so I see your point clearly.

[FolderWife]

That brings up another problem. When we got over the porn thing, I cried and told him about my efforts to just let it be without letting porn bother me, and how many different ways I tried to deal with it aside from just demanding that he stop, and he held me, and told me that he didn't need it any more, and that he promised to never do it again. I voiced to him how he'd hurt me by looking at it, and he said he understood.

 

So if he knew so clearly that it would bother me, why did he just go ahead and do it again? and not just one movie, but EIGHT! I'd like to ask him that.

 

Is that considered ripping him? If it is, I think he asked for it.

 

And if he knew that I would find out (because I always look at the cable bill, because it's in MY NAME) did he just not care that he was going to hurt me? Did he just not care that he was blatently lying to me and breaking a promise?

 

Why would anyone do somethint THAT THEY KNOW is going to hurt their spouse. Once, shame on them. Twice, shame on them. Three times, shame on them, BUT A FOURTH TIME!?!?!

 

Give me a break, what is he expecting? If he wants to look at porn so badly, why doesn't he take greater lengths to hide it? I didn't even have to go looking this time.

 

I wasn't going to yell at him and accuse him, I just wanted to know what he was thinking when he just threw aside the knowlege that what he was doing was going to crush me, and did it any way!

[krbshappy71]

Another good book, "Difficult Conversations". It talks about how most of our communication is not REALLY about the issue at hand at all. The book is about finding out what the REAL issue is. You wrote that you just wanted to know if they were all porn before you accused them of being all porn. Why? Would it matter if only 1 was porn? If 7 out of 8 were porn? What is the real issue at hand? Would you prefer he just surf the internet for his porn than cost you money for it? Lets say all 8 movies were NOT porn, then it is okay to spend the money on the movies? Was it the money for the movies, or the movies being porn that bothered you?

 

If it wasn't the porn, then just explore WHY you wanted to have this conversation in the first place. What was your goal? To discuss cutting back on paying for movies? Perhaps a budgeting plan? Before launching into a conversation, try to think about WHAT you want out of the conversation when it is over. I certainly would not want my bf/husband questioning what I do unless they have a specific reason for doing so. Picking a fight for a fights-sake gets old and can be spotted a mile away.

 

I understand you were just using this situation as an example, but my point is, rethink how and when you approach him and what your REAL agenda is. What would you like to come out of the situation? Then plan what you can say so as not to shut him down. Accusations can be spotted a mile away even if the person has a quiet, relaxed voice. Its how it is said, not what is said.

[FolderWife]

He cheated. He didn't commit adultery, but he cheated on this marriage.

 

Comparison:

 

Cheater: Promises to be faithful to one woman

Him: Promises to never look at porn

Cheater: Sleeps with another woman

Him: Watches porn any way

Cheater: Apologizes and promises to never do it again

Him: Apologizes and promises to never do it again

Cheater: Does it again

Him: Does it again

Cheaters Wife: Has a valid reason to leave, case will hold in court.

Me: Expected to forgive and forget, even though he broke a promise, he thinks it's no big deal.

 

See, on loveshack, some of the cheaters realize what they've done. They get sucked into a relationship with someone, because they ignorantly think it's going to be innocent....then one day it turns into an affair.

 

My husband didn't just get sucked into anything. He turned on the TV, ordered porn, and didn't care what I thought. He said, "It just happened" like a cheater would.

 

Even if porn weren't what he lied about, let's say he promised never to smoke again but he did. A promise is a promise, and he keeps breaking them.

 

How am I supposed to trust him. What makes him think that I'm going to be stupid enough to believe his promises after he's lied so many times that I can't count them?

 

He just dismisses me like I'm making a big deal over nothing.

[FolderWife]

shappy: a good valid question

 

The point I guess is he treats me like crap when he watches porn. Even if it's just one time.

 

He treated me like crap for those 2 weeks that porn was back in our house. I guess I wanted to make sure that all the movies were porn, so I could make sure that the reason he was treating me like crap was due to the porn, or if it was something else. He watched it up until the day I found out about it (found a recorded tape of it in the VCR). He also treated me like poopy up until the day I found out about it.

 

He broke a promise. Now his word is useless to me, yet he expects me to just believe everything he says.

 

Um. He knew porn hurts me from numerous discussions we'd had about it, yet he just threw the fact that he was going to break my heart in the trash, and selfishly did what he wanted any way.

 

Did I come up with a valid reason for this discussion, or do I need to dig deeper

[moimeme]

Monday, if you could only look at porn as any other strong preference. People like it, enjoy it, and find it hard to give up. Like chocolate or cigarettes or junk food. How many people you know have SWORN to give up junk food???? How's about candy??? Smokes??? Same deal. Would you be as offended if it was food he couldn't quit? No. The problem is that you think he does it to hurt you, when it is really something stupid that is hard for people to give up. It is not about not wanting you or anything else. It is that some compulsions to please ourselves grab our brains and make us stupid.

 

If you could end your 'if only you loved me you would not....' association, you'd see that he doesn't do it TO you or AGAINST you.

 

What do you mean he 'treats you like crap'? Isn't it possible that he knows he'll get grief, starts to feel guilty, and then the guilt makes him cranky and upset???

[krbshappy71]

Cheater: Promises to be faithful to one woman

Him: Promises to never go fishing

Cheater: Sleeps with another woman

Him: goes fishing any way

Cheater: Apologizes and promises to never do it again

Him: Apologizes and promises to never do it again

Cheater: Does it again

Him: Does it again

Cheaters Wife: Has a valid reason to leave, case will hold in court.

Me: Expected to forgive and forget, even though he broke a promise, he thinks it's no big deal.

 

Do you see how, if it was going fishing, it looks silly? Would you honestly forbid him to never go fishing? Fine. But he will always hold resentments against you for not letting him go fishing. Granted, he has a right to go fishing whenever he wants......there is no law against fishing....but fine. You can MAKE him give up fishing but you cannot make him WANT to stop fishing. Perhaps he will just tell you he is doing soemthing else instead so he can still go fishing so he doesn't have to deal with you. Would you rather have him lie to you about fishing?? Personally, I would rather just drop the whole issue about fishing and let the man fish in peace. We are not talking adultery, hon, we are talking fishing or porn.

 

Does this make sense? You are attempting the impossible, you cannot MAKE someone stop wanting to do something. No matter how bad your consequences, they will still have their own thoughts and feelings about it. Your attempts to control him will never work....just make things miserable around your house.

[FolderWife]

I see. What about cheating, though. If someone cheats, because it's basically something they are addicted to (like porn or chocolate) should their spouse be understanding?

 

I'm not trying to confuse the issue, I agree and understand your pov on this..I'm just curious of your pov on cheating.

[krbshappy71]

That's just it, you ARE trying to make the comparison and it is not an equal comparison. It was your posting above that tried to make that comparison.

[riverside6]

Monday, please consider the possibility:

 

He didn't try and hide it = he doesn't want to go behind your back.

He watched porn even after agreeing not to = he doesn't think there's anything wrong with watching porn and it's therefore not something he should get in trouble for doing (I don't either, but then, my wife also enjoys it).

 

I think that the fact that he did agree not to do it and then did it anyway was a mistake on his part, especially if he fully intended to do it when he made the promise. If he thinks watching porn is something he should be allowed to do, he should argue his case rather than untruthfully say that he has seen the error of his ways...

 

Remember that porn = fantasy; there's a huge difference (IMHO) between watching porn and cheating on your partner (unless, as I say, you promised your partner you wouldn't watch it...).

 

Perhaps he sees something in porn that is desirable to him and lacking in his life. I don't think the turn on in watching porn is merely the fact that porn actresses have nice bodies... it's more a mental turn-on. I love seeing women enjoying sex and I love fantasising that normal, everyday situations could lead to sex. Perhaps this is what he likes? If so, this is a fantasy that you can easily make real.

 

If you can catch him in a relaxed mood, start talking about your fantasies - hopefully he will do the same. Admit that occasionally you think about a guy and a girl doing xxxx and how you find it arousing; if you cast around you'll find something that he likes, too, and the fact that you've said you like it will make it a lot easier for him to say he likes it (he won't think he'll get in into any trouble as you've implicitly approved it).

 

Once you both start talking about your fantasies, it's a downhill ride to acting one out. I am not naturally one to voice fantasies without some prompting, but I find it liberating to do so. Providing this kind of mental fantasy may negate or lessen his desire for porn and rekindle his trust in you (sorry, but it does sound like it is lacking). In a sense you will both be sharing a secret, and that's a powerful thing.

 

I believe his dislike of facing problems is because he doesn't know how to deal with them and has little faith in you understanding his point of view. A little clandestine fantasy may do wonders for this.

 

Best of luck,

 

r6.

[krbshappy71]

You said you wanted help on communication. There is an entire forum on what IS cheating and how to handle cheating.

[moimeme]

especially if he fully intended to do it when he made the promise

 

I doubt he did. I bet he was every bit as sincere as anybody who SWEARS they'll never eat another french fry. At the time, they really do mean it, but the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, and fries are tasty and you never really saw the harm in them anyway.

 

It is NOT cheating, Monday. The problem is that you think he also loves those women and desires them. He doesn't. He just likes watching the action.

 

A lot of people, as riverside said, use porn to fuel their imaginations. They imagine their SOs doing the stuff to them that they see being done in the movies!!!!!

[FolderWife]

I don't care if he WANTS to look at porn. That's his business. I care if he DOES look at it.

 

If he wanted to look at it so badly, why doesn't he just sit down, and explain to me why it's important to him, and why he would appreciate if I would just be understanding about it? he doesn't do that, he promises to not do it, and lies about it.

 

See, the guy going fishing is lying too. Why doesn't he just explain why it's important to him, and let his wife explain why it's important that he not.

 

Maybe he needs to be finding a job instead of fishing. Maybe he needs to be mowing the grass, but he's fishing. Maybe if he's talk to his wife about it, they could find some middle ground.

 

I can't help how I feel, and I feel devestated when he looks at porn, EVEN if I tell him that I don't care, I can't get the feeling that he's wanting another woman out of my mind. Believe me, I tried. I have tried everything. I can't help how I feel, and I made a tremendous effort. I think it's his turn to make an effort.

 

He's made an effort, but he's failed again, and I'm devestated again....well, not so much now, because it's been about two weeks since this happened, and I'm FINALLY starting to not ache every day.

[moimeme]

I can't get the feeling that he's wanting another woman out of my mind.

 

If you choose to believe a lie, then that's your choice. It is untrue. How would you feel if you were faithful to him but he constantly accused you of wanting others? Despite your repeated true assurances to him that you only want him and looking at other men does not mean you would prefer them to him, he still insisted on believing that you are lying?????

 

Who's got the problem - the person who is truthful or the person who insists on believing things that just don't exist.

[FolderWife]

Thank you all, I feel better now. At least he didn't intentionally lie to me. Maybe he did mean it when he swore it wouldn't happen again, but he ......just got selfish.

[moimeme]

but he ......just got selfish.

 

Is the french fry eater selfish? Is the fisherman? Do you not get treats that you want for yourself? Is it not ok for him to get treats he wants? I can see if it was hours per day every day, but it's occasional. There are a zillion men out there who beg women not to overspend, but the women get themselves 'treats' all the time. IMHO, it's a matter of degree. If it isn't constant and it's not breaking the bank and he's being fairly open about it. then let that be the compromise. Telling him he can have NONE is not compromise, is it? It's win-lose. He gets nothing he wants and you get everything you want.

[FolderWife]

He's not being open about it. I'll find the evidence, ask him about it, he'll lie, then I'll show him what I've stumbled across, then he gets angry.

 

This last time, he went on and on and on about how I was checking up on him. I didn't check up on him. I wanted to use the VCR, and thought one of my soap operas was left in there, forgotten to watch. THEN I called the cable company to see how much money he blew on porn, after throwing a fit over me wasting too much money on lingerie.

 

Never mind how he lied to me. I tried to compromise, but he doesn't want to be "controlled" like that.

 

If something I did that I liked to do made him insecure, then I'd stop doing it, OR I if it was important to me, I would make sure he felt secure in it.

[Samson]

Had to read the thread a couple of times before I convinced myself that Moimeme had actually posted what I thought she had posted.

 

MERRY, Mon Deu!,

 

We actually seem to be in agreement

 

So, I've very liitle to add except the little mirror I'm going to hold up to Monday:

 

How do you talk to someone who just WON'T TALK. He refuses to talk about any issue. If I bring up an issue, he just sits quietly. Sometimes he'll act stupid like he didn't hear me, and ask, "What?" that's my cue to quit talking about it. He'll sit quietly until I hit a nerve

 

If I didn't know better I would think I was reading a quote from the Grand Inquisitor in Spain during the 15th century.

 

Want to "hit a nerve" quicker?

 

Try thumbscrews.

 

Then he'll confess and you can absolve him of all sin, real and imagined, and the world will be a better place

[moimeme]

If something I did that I liked to do made him insecure, then I'd stop doing it, OR I if it was important to me, I would make sure he felt secure in it.

 

Ok. We've established that you're the better person. Does that really help matters?

 

You can go see a marriage counsellor on your own. Many people do to learn how to fix their end. Relationship troubles can be healed if even one person makes a start.

[moimeme]

MERRY, Mon Deu!,

 

We actually seem to be in agreement

 

Samson, you old curmudgeon, you, you've misjudged me often. I'm about fairness by people to other people regardless of gender, and believe it or not, sometimes men can be unfair to women, too. I don't think this is one of those cases, but I did think the others were that you battled me over. I just happen not to apply different sets of standards to behaviour based on gender

[Potatohead]

Actually to be honest I do not blame him for getting mad at you for checking up on his habits.

 

Masterbation is I am sure everyone will agree is a common practice, and usually it is a private practice. Usually when people look at porn they masterbate.

 

Why is it such a crime that looking at something explicit helps with this common practice?

 

How would u feel if he found evidence of YOU masterbating and confronted YOU with it? Wouldn't u be embarrassed to the point that you would get angry to cover it up?? And please don't say you don't or havn't (or you would be in the minority).....perhaps you don't like to use porn, but mebbe you should try it??.....While I agree with the ideal marrage you should share EVERYTHING in a marrage, your thoughts and dreams, but more realisticly its important to have some private space for yourself, and you are invading HIS private space.

 

My wife knows I look/download porn from time to time..(although I think my imagination is better than any picture...ahh but variety is the spice:)..the only thing she says to me is "I hope u don't do that just before u come to bed cuz u wll be all toey!!! (we don't have sex that regularly tho more regularly than some)....She knows I am a maniac when it comes to sex....even if I did do it just before bed I could still do it when I got into bed hehe....but she probably figures if I am getting off myself, I am not going to catch anything doing it that way and I might hassel her a bit less for sex (not likely!!).

 

Admitedly my wife does not know how much smut I have tucked away on my hard drive, most of its boring, but whenever I try and do housekeeping (delete) I usually get distracted...smirks...

 

I am a bit puzzled though.....I do not act meaner to my wife if I have looked at porn....it does not stop me from wanting her...I am pretty sure it makes me want the real thing more!!!....I would have to stop masterbating /or looking at porn for a few weeks to see if my sex drive took a dive....I wish it would!!! Alas I can only last a few days ahem. gawd knows if it increased I would be a nut case.

 

I can see why some women see it as threatening though,Maybe a sign of insecurity??, also i can see how some people see it as degrading/distastefull, the best porn is when they are really into it (that or they are really good actors)...can't stand staged sex.....dammmm I could think of worse ways of making a living....

 

Alas, as long as what he is doing is not impacting you financialy or he is saying NO to u for sex then leave it be, unfortunitly u have already gotten into the habit of "looking" at the cable bills, impossible to tell u to stop looking at them...that has in some respects become your obsession. But try not to look further...he will probably find another source (even tell him its ok but that you don't want to know!!! and that you will still KILL him if u catch him...lol....a bit of a circular reference).

 

My sugestion is what you don't know won't hurt.....don't look too hard and you won't find anything!!

 

Men are not ideal, nor is the world.....nor are women!!!

my 2 cents

[PUHLEEEEZE...]

I guess I must be from another planet or something. I don't understand the advice being given about this issue. The person you are dealing with is not a healthy person, and from what you post, is not interested in becoming one. It's time to stop obsessing about it - cut your losses and get out.

[Thinkalot]

Monday...just wanted to add on here, that my partner and I have struggled with our share of communication issues too!(made worse by my OCD)...and we read Men are From Mars, we also went to counselling....and slowly but surely we are making headway, and have techniques which work for us. It hasn't been easy, and sometimes we slip into old bad habits again....but we get over things more quickly, and we are more easily able to identify problems and patterns of behaviour than before. It also required us both taking a hard look at ourselves. Maybe your husband won't do that right away...but change needs to start somewhere...so let it start with you, and your way of approaching things, and see what happens from there.