Now I have a communication question.

[mywife'smanalways]

Originally posted by Monday

I see. What about cheating, though. If someone cheats, because it's basically something they are addicted to (like porn or chocolate) should their spouse be understanding?

 

I'm not trying to confuse the issue, I agree and understand your pov on this..I'm just curious of your pov on cheating.

 

Monday,

Moimeme and krbshappy71 are simply wrong. There is a world of difference between porn and those other two things. Chocolate is a food and fishing is a sport. Why do you feel the way you do about it? Because you know on an elemental level that for a married man to blantantly dishonor his wife by going to another woman (whether in the flesh or on a screen) for his sexual pleasure is a basic wrong that cannot be disputed no matter how the words are twisted around. The same thing applies to women. Add to that the fact that he is causing you intense personal pain by his actions, and totally disregards the effect it has on you and you can see exactly why this behavior is inexcusable. NO person, I repeat NO person has the right to do whatever he/she wants without regard to the rights and feelings of others, ESPECIALLY SPOUSES. Does no one see the light? Our divorce rate has risen to unbelievable heights because of the blatant selfishness of people today. Nothing else seems to matter except a person's "right" to scratch his/her particular itch no matter what the cost to spouse, children family or anyone else.

 

Regardless of whether your approach to your husband's auto-erotic philandering is tactful and diplomatic or not, he is is no way absolved of his responsibility for the anguish he has caused you.

 

HE NEEDS TO GROW UP !!!! Hang in there. You are not alone, and people are thinking of you.

[PUHLEEEEZE...]

Right on, mywife'smanalways!!! I hope your woman knows and appreciates she has a REAL MAN on her hands!

 

Monday: "Addiction" is just an excuse. People CHOOSE to continue destructive behavior. When an alcoholic/drug abuser/porn freak stops their actions, it's often because they've had some kind of "spiritual" experience (or hitting bottom, as they say). No other "disease" is cured in this way. You need to respect this guy enough to hold him accountable for his actions.

[moimeme]

Puh and Mywifleham3ion^^,

 

There is such a thing as a porn addiction' it's a known psychological syndrome, and it can be treated. As for 'going to another woman for pleasure' - that's not what happens. Your basic error is in thinking that the man desires the women in the pictures. By their own reports, the vast majority of the men do not desire any other women instead of their wives, including the women on screen. So the parallel to cheating is totally bogus.

[PUHLEEEEZE...]

moimeme: Treatment won't work unless the individual has acknowledged they do have a choice as to how they behave and have made a committment to do something about it. When you get married, you have an OBLIGATION to your spouse to not continue to behave in ways that hurt them. If he can't (read: WON'T) honor that obligation, it's time for her to get out.

[jmargel]

Monday in a previous post you mentioned when he looks at porn, he treats you bad. So, you associate porn with being treated bad. No wonder why you dislike it so much.

 

Question is, does he treat you bad all the time, or only when watching it? And if he only treats you bad when he watches it, why?

 

Porn in itself is subjective to everyone on here. There are countless threads about it. Personally I believe it can be very healthy to explore your sexual side as long as your partner wants to do it with you or understands. Thankfully I have one.

 

Generally men don't like to feel like they disappointed you. When you were interrogating him about the movies, he already felt under the gun. Instead of saying 'How many movies of these were porn?' try saying 'Too bad I couldn't have seen some with you if any of these were porn, I am kind of curious'. You would've gotten a much better reaction out of him.

 

When a guy feels like he's disappointhing his mate, the first thing he usually does is to explain why YOU shouldn't be disappointed. This is a self-defense mechanism, but what it does for you is make you feel invalidated, and that he doesn't understand what you are feeling.

 

If he won't goto counciling, get the book & read 'Men are from mars, women from venus'. My fiancee was the same way at first. What I did was start talking about a chapter I read, which got her interest. I went over points that women feel, and she agreed. I was then able to tell her about mine. Counciling has helped alot too.

 

If you don't deal with these issues now, things will get alot worse. Marriage counciling is the first step to help you both out.

[moimeme]

When you get married, you have an OBLIGATION to your spouse to not continue to behave in ways that hurt them. If he can't (read: WON'T) honor that obligation, it's time for her to get out.

 

Life is not that simple. Sometimes the hurt people feel comes from their own inner pain and they need treatment to get themselves out of that sort of cycle. Problems are never only one person's fault and some of them are caused by disorders and other ailments. I prefer not being hasty in condemning someone else's actions. There are often very plausible reasons behind someone's behaviour, and good solutions can be found if people only try.

[PUHLEEEEZE...]

Ok, I'll concede he has a problem. Monday has pointed it out to him that his "problem" is hurting her and their relationship. I understand that he may not be able to just stop what he is doing. but He is CHOOSING not to get help.

 

Attention to the body or life of another person (cyberflesh included) when you're in a committed relationship is abusive and threatening to the integrity of that commitment; it allows for attention and emotion to be directed away from family and loving obligations. No excuses change the truth. It's bad enough to not be willing to admit to skuzzy and hurtful behaviors. It's even worse to treat your spouse as dim, inadequate, stupid, not with it, or actually responsible for those behaviors

[moimeme]

Attention to the body or life of another person (cyberflesh included)

 

Once again, in most cases that is not the point. The point is to look at body parts engaged in copulation and become aroused by that. NOT by the owners of the parts, but by the acts themselves. Everyone's accusations and freakouts over this are based on the idea that the men are actually lusting after those particular women instead of their wives. Which is, by the reports of men and women alike, not the point of looking at the stuff.

[PUHLEEEEZE...]

No, the point is that anything I choose to do that my spouse has clearly communicated to me is causing a problem by interfering with the time I could be spending with him is just not right. I don't care if my husband was spending time with a kumquat-if it was affecting our marriage, I would expect him to respect his commitment and take the steps necessary to honor his vows. I guess that is one of the things you have to be very certain of before you get married - is that the person you're going to spend your life with actually understands that.

[Matilda]

Originally posted by PUHLEEEEZE...

No, the point is that anything I choose to do that my spouse has clearly communicated to me is causing a problem by interfering with the time I could be spending with him is just not right. I don't care if my husband was spending time with a kumquat-if it was affecting our marriage, I would expect him to respect his commitment and take the steps necessary to honor his vows. I guess that is one of the things you have to be very certain of before you get married - is that the person you're going to spend your life with actually understands that.

 

So, you are saying that "anything" I choose to do that my husband doesn't like is wrong of me to do. Luckily, in my current marriage, my husband is okay with the things I do on my own. And, I do think you're right in saying, if this is indeed what you're saying, that people should know more about their spouses before they get married in the first place.

 

But what about spouses that make unreasonable requests. Like, my mother likes to play bridge one or two times a week and my father dislikes that she leaves him for 2 hours a couple of days a week. But, my mother continues to go, since she is in her 80's and feels it keeps her mind sharp. I feel like my father's objection to this is just because he is cranky and old.

 

To me, if a partner looks at porn, when he is alone, on occasion, I could care less. I don't find that threatening at all. I definitely wouldn't think that he thinks those women are better than me in any way. And I wouldn't marry a man that did think that. Now, if he started looking at it all the time, to the point where it seemed as if the porn was more important than me, well, then that's a problem. As, with many things, it's a matter of degree.

 

I will say that if you are a woman who will not tolerate porn in any form, than so be it, that is certainly your perogative. But you need to make sure that the guy you marry is of a like mind about the issue. And you need to do it BEFORE you get married.

[FolderWife]

I didn't give a rat's butt about porn, before it became such a problem. My husband lied when he got Playboy. That hurt me. My husband hid the fact that he looked online from me. That hurt me. It got to the point that I didn't want him looking any more. My husband is critisizing when he looks at porn. That hurts. I hate being compared to other women, that's not fair in a marriage. My husband is mean and hateful to me when he looks at porn. I haven't figured out if that's the cause, or the product, but he is mean, when he looks at porn, and when he looks at porn, he is mean. I don't know which comes first; the anger, or the porn. Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make love to my husband, because he masterates too much when he looks at porn all the time.

 

I just say to hell with it. I hate all porn now. It's become such a marriage breaker in my relationship that I hate it, and it breaks my heart when he puts porn above my feelings, and looks any way.

 

I am not a prude. I liked a little porn once in a while. I liked to share it with my husband. I never hid that I looked at it. I lied about it when he asked me. He lied. That was the first lie he ever told me. It broke my heart. Also, it was the first secret he's ever kept from me.

 

Now, the cable is in my name, and all the pay per views he's ordered, has started mail coming to the box in my name, WITH PORN ORDER FORMS in it. I don't like that either I don't want to be associated with it in any way

[moimeme]

He gets mad and mean because he knows he'll get grief from you. And the more you give him grief, the madder and meaner he will be. If you would just drop the whole thing and leave him alone about it, you'd find him changed.

 

A couple of posters we've had have actually decided to quit badgering, bugging, carping, and complaining about the porn and decided just to treat their husbands with the same affection and love when they looked at porn. They were rewarded with happy husbands.

 

You can continue to give him grief - but, as Dr. Phil says: 'How's that working for you?'

[krbshappy71]

Yup, sounds like a vicious circle.

Just curious though, why is it impossible to make love to him if he masturbates? Is he wore out and then doesn't want any? I would think, if anything, it would take the edge off and he could last longer when you two are together. (well, not if he has to hide it and gets chewed out for it, but before you two had these issues.)

What exactly changed? You said he lied when he got playboy, lied about what? the subscription? Just wondering how this all started when it seemed to start off an okay situation.

[FolderWife]

He can't get an erection if he masterbates. If he does get one, he can't keep it.

 

It already takes my husband too long to orgasm as it is! I like it a LOT better when I don't have to bob up and down for an hour and a half to finish him. If I don't finish him, he gets mad at me...if he makes it impossible to finish him, then I just set my self up to be mistreated, if I try to make love with him.

 

When I moved in with my husband, I was cleaning house, and I found one of those postcard things to order playboy. I asked him if he had a subscription, and he said no. I asked if he was going to get one, and he said no. I said good.

 

A couple of weeks later, I found where the subscription had been filled out, and it was in with the mail. I asked him if he was ordering it, and he said, "I toldyou, no." I said, "Then why is it in with the mail?" He said he was ordering it for his uncle. I don't know why he couldn't fill it out with his UNCLE'S address. He said, "It's in my name." That makes no sense...the little post card had to be filled out.....put his uncle's address on it.

 

I was a naive newly wed, so I believed him. A couple of months later, I was putting toilet paper in the extra bathroom, and found the playboy under the sink. I was SO HURT that he'd lied to me. I was stupid to believe him, but I was going on blind trust.

 

He promised that he'd never look at playboy again.

 

We were married about 6 months, when my mom gave us a computer. we didn't have the internet, but she wanted to e-mail me, so she gave me her isp number for a couple of weeks, until we got hooked up. I'd get online illegally for 3 minutes, get whatever she sent me, and get back off.

 

A little while after we got the computer, he asked, "Since we are using your parent's isp, can they see what we look at?" I told him that I didn't think so....

 

FIRST CLUE.

 

My parents aske me to give them the computer back if and when we got our own. My husband had a law settlement that came in, and we had enough money left over to buy a computer. When I was getting the computer ready to give back to them, he asked me if there was any way to delete the search bar drop down thingy. I figured out how, and found where he'd searched for LOADS of porn. I deleted it all, and asked a co-worker how to delete the history. I cried, because he'd promised not to look any more. He said, "I promised not to look at Playboy!"

 

This time, he promised no more porn. I found in MY e-mail where he'd joined a porn site, and then unjoined it three hours later, so he wouldn't have to pay for it. I asked him about it, and he denied it. I believed him. There was never anything in the history, except sports pages. I figured out how to look at cookies, and I COULDN'T BELIEVE HOW LONG HE'D BEEN FLAT OUT LYING TO ME!!!

 

1. I couldn't figure out why he couldn't get an erection

2. I couldn't figure out why he couldn't keep an erection

3. I couldn't figure out why no matter WHAT I did, he never had an orgasm.

4. I couldn't figure out why nothing I did ever turned him on.

 

I thought something was wrong with me. I considered he was cheating for a long time. I just believed him when he LIED AND LIED AND LIED to me. I'd have the proof in my HAND, and he'd lie about it, so I'd believe him. I can't tell you how many times I got on the computer, and the home page was a porn site. He could never explain why...always blamed it on me.

 

I trusted him, and for MONTHS he lied about porn.

 

I was so upset. He still continued to promise no more porn, and he still continued to look. I asked why he'd lied, yet again, and he said, "Because we only have sex when YOU want to." At first I thought ok, so now I'll just do it when you want to, and you'll quit looking, but then I realized that

 

I NEVER EVER GOT SEX FROM HIM!!! I COULDN'T have sex with him, because he was unable! That's another obvious lie. I was the only one that ever initiated. If he'd ever initiated, I would've JUMPED at the chance. I think there was maybe one time that he wanted a blow job, and I wouldn't because I was tired.

 

SO SELFISH! BLAME IT ON ME!

 

I tried to accept that he looked, and he started looking more. He joined a site, he ordered pay per view, and started PAYING a fortune for this crap, yet he'd yell at me whenever I spent money on anything. I figured that at least with his thinking that I didn't approve, at least he'd look at the free stuff only, and just occasionally.

 

It got really bad. I'd go to church, he'd look. I'd go to my mom's, he'd look. He'd actually go in to work early, so he could get home sooner, so he could LOOK LONGER!

 

Finally one day, I couldn't hold my pain in any more, so I went to the bathroom, turned on the tub to drown me out, and just started sobbing.

 

He barged in, and demanded to know what was wrong with me. I told him. He took a hammer to the computer.

 

I tried to trust that he wasn't looking, and lying to me again. Until the other day when I found a porno in the VCR. He'd been treating me like crap for about a week, and I guess I found out why.

[moimeme]

Go to a counsellor. If he won't go, go alone. You two have gotten into the porn cycle. I doubt the porn has anything to do with his sexual problems, however I'm guessing he can get off more easily with it. Good sex often requires that the two participants get along well. The more a woman gets upset about the porn issue, the more the relationship deteriorates, and the more the man turns to porn instead of to the wife. This only goes downhill.

 

He lies because he's still horny and wants to get off somehow and knows he'll get grief for it. It happens in every one of these situations. Go. To a counsellor. Now.

[FolderWife]

Right after he started looking AGAIN, but before I found out, we were looking at a house, and he said, "Maybe we can get the internet again..." I shook my head no, and he got so ENRAGED at me. A week later, I found his precious porno in the VCR.

 

I don't believe a word my husband says any more. He lies and lies and lies and lies, and I HATE THAT!!! I asked him to promise me one time that NO MATTER how bad he thought something would hurt me, or how angry he thought I'd be, to PLEASE NEVER LIE TO ME. He promised.

 

LIE

 

He promised to never cuss at me again.

 

LIE

 

He promised never to look at porn again.

 

LIE

 

Every single time I'd ask if he looked, he'd say no...

 

LIE LIE LIE!!!!! I'd show him the proof, and he'd get mad at me for "checking up on him." I used to blindly believe everything he said, until I litterally FELL over proof that he was lying.

 

Then I was the bad person for checking up on him.

 

How can he get mad at me for discovering he lied! HE'S THE LIAR!!!

 

Maybe I wouldn't have such a problem with porn, if he didn't lie about it so much.

 

I guess maybe I'm selfish. I am his WIFE, therefore I want to be involved in at least 90% of his sexual activity. If he wants to look at porn, then don't delete the history. Dont' lie when I ask him. Don't look at it so much that I can't make love with him. Look at it with me in the room! Look at it with me there! Don't close the browser every time I walk by. Don't treat me like I'm too stupid to know what he's doing!

 

If we had an honest, communicative relationship, I don't think it would bother me. The fact that he'd blatantly do something he PROMISED not to do, and BLATANTLY LIE to me ALL THE TIME, and single handedly destroy our marriage by taking out all of the trust, then how am I supposed to feel??? If he wanted a playboy, and I have a problem with it, then don't just lie about it, discuss it with me, and tell me how much he wants it! Explain that it's not that there's anything wrong with me! Maybe he could've convinced me, maybe not, but at least try before flat out lying to me.

 

What did lying accomplish? It just broke my heart, and destroyed any faith that I ever had in him. I wanted a partner that I could count on. I wanted a husband who loved me enough to include me in his life.

 

He just shuts me completely out! He just lies to me. Rather than think I'm worth the effort of trying to help me understand, he just LIES!

 

How do you deal with someone like that? How do you have a relationship with someone like that? Someone who would just lie to me, as soon as tell me the truth. Someone who thinks I'm so stupid, that I'd never find out. Someone who thinks I don't deserve the respect of the truth. Someone who doesn't care about how much lies and mistrust hurts me.

 

Our marriage is a sham right now! I can't talk to him about anything, because he gets RAGING mad. I can't ask him anything without him telling me I'm stupid.

 

My boss is trying to help us build a house, at $55 per square foot. Our house would cost $87,945. Add a Garage, and it will be 107,945. My boss told me that he could get the guy to come down to about 80,000 on the house, and to about 18,000 on the garage.

 

Well, when my husband and I were discussing the house cost, I mentioned 98,000 dollars for the entire thing. Later, we were discussing it while going over paper work, and he asked, "Where's the 98,000 come in??? House plus land? I couldn't remember immediately. Then he remembered, "Oh yeah, house plus garage!" I said "yes!" he said, "No that's 108,000....." I started to explain how we'd come up with 98,000, and he interrupted me, and said, "It's 108,000, yadda yadday yadda" started to say something. He paused, so I started to explain how my boss got that figure, so we wouldn't waste any more time figuring out where the 98,000 comes in, and he looked at me hateful, gritted his teeth, and said, "DON'T INTERRUPT ME!" So I sat there like a stupid person until he went over and over and over all the figures, and when he finally shut up, I explained to him in 10 seconds where that figure came from.

 

HOW DO YOU TALK TO SOMEONE WHO'S SO RUDE, WHO LIES, WHO GETS SO ANGRY OVER NOTHING!?!?!

 

I'm this close |______________| to throwing in the towel, and leaving him. He's giving me nothing to work with. He lies to me, tells me I'm stupid at least 3 times an hour, tells me I'm a pig, tells me that I'm lazy....all of this hurts coming from the man I love.

 

The house is never clean enough, I never make enough money, I'm never skinny enough......He's never going to be happy with me, no matter what I do.

 

I guess it's time to call it quits.

[moimeme]

Um.

 

Get counselling.

[FolderWife]

What good is councelling going to do me? He's still going to call me stupid, he's still going to treat me like I'm stupid, he's still not going to think I'm good looking enough, he's still not going to treat me with any kind of respect, he's still going to blame everything wrong in his life on me.....

 

What's councelling going to do? Give me a shoulder to cry on? I have that here.

 

I'm tired of trying and trying and trying to make this marriage work. he keeps undermining everything that I do! How's a councellor going to help me change him?

 

I'd love to get councelling honestly, just so I'd have a real person to confide in, but my husband is never going to pay for that!

[moimeme]

There are plenty of free sources for people. What a counsellor can do is tell you how to change your behaviour. Time and again it's been shown that one person can bring about a change in another's behaviour by changing their own behaviour.

[krbshappy71]

Ummmm we keep telling you to get counselling and you haven't said that you will. Don't worry about getting HIM counseling, just get yourself in a better place before making rash decisions. Are there children in this marriage?

[FolderWife]

You think I'd be STUPID enough to let HIM father a child???

 

Sorry, that was rude I'm not angry at you, I'm angry at myself for putting myself in this position in the first place!

[mywife'smanalways]

Originally posted by moimeme

Puh and Mywifleham3ion^^,

 

There is such a thing as a porn addiction' it's a known psychological syndrome, and it can be treated. As for 'going to another woman for pleasure' - that's not what happens. Your basic error is in thinking that the man desires the women in the pictures. By their own reports, the vast majority of the men do not desire any other women instead of their wives, including the women on screen. So the parallel to cheating is totally bogus.

 

Hi, moimeme

 

1) Yes, there is such a thing a porn addiction. It requires treatment. But addiction is a REASON, not an excuse. Because he is addicted to this crap does not make what he is doing right or acceptable, ESPECIALLY when it causes his wife such anguish.

2) The sexual union between man and wife is just that- between man and wife. If Monday's husband is seeking his sexual gratification outside his relationship with his wife (be it in the flesh or through porn), then he IS breaking his trust with her and desperately needs to know and understand this. He is doing this at her expense and it is WRONG. That makes it cheating.

3) Monday is absolutely within her rights to feel as she does about this problem her husband has. The fact that he chooses to make lame excuses and tell ridiculous lies about his "activities" only highlights his lack of commiyment to his wife and his marriage.

[krbshappy71]

I understand, I did not take that to heart. It is clearly an awful situation.

 

So you two didn't plan on having children together?

 

Here's why I'm asking:

 

If this is the man you married but he is not the one you would have kids with, um, were you planning to have them with someone else later?

 

I know not every one even WANTS kids, I'm not trying to judge you if that's how you feel. But if you do, want kids, obviously you don't with HIM....so I'm just wondering why such an investment of your love and emotions for something that clearly isn't going to meet your future plans. (of having kids)

 

I am not trying to change your thread....I was just wondering what the future looks like for you two in that area.

[moimeme]

If Monday's husband is seeking his sexual gratification outside his relationship with his wife

 

And there is where you are wrong.

 

only highlights his lack of commiyment to his wife and his marriage.

 

 

It's a huge mistake to ascribe all the blame to one person. The relationship is in trouble, and that often means both people need to change. A counsellor could provide a good outside persepctive.

[FolderWife]

When we were dating, my husband was the perfect guy! He was always early to dates, he was super eager to spend any measly amount of time with me that he could. He was patient with any drama that I produced. He said he loved me in any and every situation.

 

He always said he wanted to have two kids...a girl and a boy. That's what I had always wanted. I never yearned for kids, but I figured that some day I'd want them, and I'd already figured what kind I'd wanted

 

Well, soon after we got married, he started saying that he didn't want kids. Once we got married, I realized that I had no desire for them either Also, a few months after we got married, his true colors started showing, and I realized that I would NEVER have a child that I love with all my heart grow up with him as a dad.

 

I don't see ANY good thing about kids. Everyone says that I'll want them, but my eyes are WIDE open to kids, and realizing what it's like to have them, and

 

NUH UH! I don't want them. First you have a noisy, hungry, grumpy, needy baby for two years. Then you have to teach it to talk and pee and walk. Then you have to send it to school, and have it come home with all these attitudes it picked up in class. Then when you START to think that you might just enjoy yourself a little bit, because your child is old enough to take some care of itself (pour it's own cereal, pick out it's own clothes, etc.)

 

THEN IT BECOMES A TEENAGER!!!! Ugh

 

I wouldn't mind having a kid, if I only had to have it from 8-10, but all the other years, I don't want it.

 

Kids need SO MUCH ATTENTION! I would never be able to watch TV. I would never be able to go to a movie that wasn't G rated. I'd never be able to watch MTV, for fear of my kid would walk in and see something inappropriate.

 

When the kid becomes a curious, horney teenager, my life would be OVER.

 

Then, once you finally get the kid grown up, and old enough to have fun with, go shopping, yadda yadda yadda...it either takes all of your money and goes to college, or runs off with some lowlife with an attitude and gets married, and you only see it 4 times a month if you're lucky.

 

Of course then there's grandbabies, but by the time I have grandkids, I'd be too old and bitter to enjoy them.

 

I do NOT think my husband and I would be good parents. He agrees with me. He is too short tempered and selfish, and I am just too selfish and clueless.

 

I don't want to spend every second of my day worrying about a kid.

 

So while I liked the idea of kids as a distant future thing, I don't like that idea now. If I ever want kids, though, I figure I'll leave my husband. Right now, I think if I get pregnant, I'm just going to move in with my parents. I don't think I could have a child, and have to worry about him messing it up with his name calling. Also, he doesn't want a kid, because we'd rather have "things" than kids, so if I did get pregnant on accident, I worry that he'd become physically abusive.

 

No thanks!

 

There are a lot of reasons I don't want kids. The man I married is just one reason.