I just cannot decide

[reboot]

What a great post.

 

 

 

And to the OP, 2 years is just the blink of an eye. How can you have given up so quickly without even trying?

[karnak]

What a great post.

 

 

 

And to the OP, 2 years is just the blink of an eye. How can you have given up so quickly without even trying?

 

2 years can be a long time when one is miserable. A very long time. Time is relative as Einstein stated. And we sure can think a lot when we feel lonely and miserable.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[reboot]

2 years can be a long time when one is miserable. A very long time. Time is relative as Einstein stated. And we sure can think a lot when we feel lonely and miserable.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that 2 years can be a long time, but they've only been married for 2 years. How in the world do you manage to marry someone you are that incompatible with? Now if one were to say, "We've been married 6/8/10/20 years and I've been miserable the last 2", that's different.

[karnak]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that 2 years can be a long time, but they've only been married for 2 years. How in the world do you manage to marry someone you are that incompatible with? Now if one were to say, "We've been married 6/8/10/20 years and I've been miserable the last 2", that's different.

 

In my humble opinion she didn't really love him when she married. Maybe she tought she did. Maybe she just wanted to perform the "social rite" of marriage and kids every woman must pass before society will leave them alone. Maybe she has deep emotional issues.

Regardless of what I believe she had passion for him. Not Love. As I stated in another post Love is not like a muscle that you can build by going to the gym or taking steroids.

 

Either it's there. Or it isn't...

 

If not the scientists would have already created the True Love Pill.

[c0nfuzd]

In my humble opinion she didn't really love him when she married. Maybe she tought she did. Maybe she just wanted to perform the "social rite" of marriage and kids every woman must pass before society will leave them alone. Maybe she has deep emotional issues.

Regardless of what I believe she had passion for him. Not Love. As I stated in another post Love is not like a muscle that you can build by going to the gym or taking steroids.

 

Either it's there. Or it isn't...

 

If not the scientists would have already created the True Love Pill.

 

I disagree with your theory....what you're saying is that love requires no work, that it somehow magically stays inside of you even after 30 or 40 years of marriage.

 

People fall in and out of love all the time. They are phases that prolly all marriages go thru. And peeps can fall back in love again. And it's not by magic. You have to have the right tools and do the right things to bring it back. Love is not a goal, but a process.

[Craig2425]

I disagree with your theory....what you're saying is that love requires no work, that it somehow magically stays inside of you even after 30 or 40 years of marriage.

 

People fall in and out of love all the time. They are phases that prolly all marriages go thru. And peeps can fall back in love again. And it's not by magic. You have to have the right tools and do the right things to bring it back. Love is not a goal, but a process.

 

I agree with this. A lot of people seem go think that love and marriage don't require work when in reality they take lots of work.

When you're with someone for many years it's easy to fall into a routine and take for granted what you have. You stop all the little things that brought you and your spouse together in the first place. This is where communication and work comes into play.

 

People have seen too many movies about love and think that is what love is. A fairytail.

 

And yes people go thru phases and fall in and out of love but you can also fall back in love again once you work at it.

Our lives aren't scripted out for an 1 1/2 romantic comedy. Some people need to wake up.

[c0nfuzd]

I don't know of anyone that gets married just for the sake of getting married; there was something there between those 2 peeps to take that big step and get married; and to have a baby with that person meant that it was special, otherwise abortion would have been an option

 

we must not think like teenagers that love somehow appears in our hearts and should stay in our hearts forever, we are more mature than that

 

there are too many stresses and temptations out there, variables that can throw off a marriage; no effort is required to leave but to stay and try to make it work, wow, now there's a challenge

 

for me, especially if there are kids involved, you owe it to them to at least try to salvage the marriage by seeking counseling; professional advice can do wonders

[Craig2425]

I don't know of anyone that gets married just for the sake of getting married; there was something there between those 2 peeps to take that big step and get married; and to have a baby with that person meant that it was special, otherwise abortion would have been an option

 

we must not think like teenagers that love somehow appears in our hearts and should stay in our hearts forever, we are more mature than that

 

there are too many stresses and temptations out there, variables that can throw off a marriage; no effort is required to leave but to stay and try to make it work, wow, now there's a challenge

 

for me, especially if there are kids involved, you owe it to them to at least try to salvage the marriage by seeking counseling; professional advice can do wonders

I do agree, but this only works if both people are going to try. If not it's just a waste of everybodys time and you're only going to hurt your kids by coming and going.

 

This person is too blinded by the fog to see what's going on with her husband. She's already re writing the history.

Like you said, no one gets married or has a kid just for the sake of doing it. There was something there before.

[fenderstrathss]

Karnak's "definition" of love is the biggest bunch of pig vomit I have ever laid my eyes upon. Your definition does nothing to separate love from passion or any other fleeting emotional state. If that is really all love is, then marriage should be banned because love can never be truly known. Sure I love him/her now, but will I love them in the future? Love is not a simple, transient, emotional state, but rather more of a trait that requires attention. There are times that I absolutely loathe my mother, but that does not mean that I no longer love her. Society today puts way too much emphasis on transient emotions as if they accurately represent reality. Emotions often distort reality. Don't believe me? Look at any person involved in an affair. What they interpret as reality based on their constant flux of emotions are seen by outsiders as completely bonkers. Emotions serve a purpose and ultimately are what make us human, but left unchecked, they are very, very dangerous.

[psionyx]

Is not happiness itself an emotion, often fleeting and elusive? And is it not the promise of happiness and other positive emotional "states" that drives us to seek relationships? If not, then to what purpose do we even pursue romantic relationships in the first place?

[karnak]

Karnak's "definition" of love is the biggest bunch of pig vomit I have ever laid my eyes upon. Your definition does nothing to separate love from passion or any other fleeting emotional state. If that is really all love is, then marriage should be banned because love can never be truly known.

 

You should probably debate these questions with your wife, then. She probably made vows to love you till death when you married.

Ask her what love is. And then tell her to grow love for you again.

[Saul Goodman]

And then tell her to grow love for you again.

Ideally, you would work hard to maintain love over the years (and by love, I mean the quality of the relationship, since I don't hold love in high regard). Once love is gone, it's gone. Of course, love isn't quantifiable, so it seems to be a rather moot point to me. I will stay out of this debate.

 

Anyway CM, some interesting points raised. I guess that it is the fact that a number of these complications happened soon after the birth of your child that makes me think that PPD is likely a factor. I believe that you are getting checked up, which is good.

 

Of course, as others have suggested, your feelings towards your husband may never have been that strong, or they may have faded over the years. You may simply be in the "affair fog". I won't discount any of these possibilities.

 

You seem to care more about your OM's wellfare than your own husband's, which is something that I find curious. Any ideas?

[karnak]

The only reason I state my opinions is that I've heard people, who are married for more than 40 years (honest) stating that they still love their spouse as wildly as when they first started dating. And they never seem to mention the word "work" or "having to overcome such or such dificculty". They make it seem that they're married just because they just love to be the X person. As simplistic as that.

 

Meanwhile, there are others who seem to grow "out of love" after just some years together. All this raises some questions: What is "love"? What is "marriage"?

 

It seems that different people have different definitions of marriage or relationships. If we take a look at most ex-couples in LS we seem to detect a pattern:

- Most guys marry the woman they want to spend their live with. They assume their vows. And want to make the marriage work, because the made a promise to.

- Most women seem to consider that marriage is only valid for as long the feelings last. Once the passion subsides, the marriage is null. In that case the whole ceremony/church/wedding dress/religious vows is nothing but a party. Like a graduation day.

It's no wonder that Codes of Honour/Knight Rules/Bushido are male inventions. Women don't really care much about promises or honour stuff. For them the emotions are the most important.

 

 

There's a user on this forum, Steadfast, who has really great views on the subject of relationships, having been through emotional hell himself. I'd love to read his take on all of this.

 

As for my opinions: They're not dogma. Just subjective thinking. I think that, in the end, everyone just lives to according to each own's rules.

[Saul Goodman]

The only reason I state my opinions is that I've heard people, who are married for more than 40 years (honest) stating that they still love their spouse as wildly as when they first started dating. And they never seem to mention the word "work" or "having to overcome such or such dificculty". They make it seem that they're married just because they just love to be the X person. As simplistic as that.

This is my opinion.

 

There is a sh_t load of hard work required to maintain a relationship (I'm talking about the 40+ year relationships especially) but because there is so much chemistry (call it "love") between these couples, it doesn't really feel like work. It all comes naturally, or with a bit of learning along the way. They work as a team...these types of couples just pull through, ya know?

 

It sort of like...you work your ass off at your job everyday. But because you enjoy your job so much, it doesn't really feel like hard work. But it is still hard work right?

 

It's no wonder that Codes of Honour/Knight Rules/Bushido are male inventions. Women don't really care much about promises or honour stuff. For them the emotions are the most important.

Amen to that.

[karnak]

There is a sh_t load of hard work required to maintain a relationship (I'm talking about the 40+ year relationships especially) but because there is so much chemistry (call it "love") between these couples, it doesn't really feel like work. It all comes naturally, or with a bit of learning along the way. They work as a team...these types of couples just pull through, ya know?

 

It sort of like...you work your ass off at your job everyday. But because you enjoy your job so much, it doesn't really feel like hard work. But it is still hard work right?

 

EXACTLY! That special "chemistry" is what is usually is called True Love. What causes it? Why some couples have it , while some (try as hard as they might) can't?

 

Great definition, Saul. Some people do like to be in a place and work their asses off to give the best of themselves in that particular job. Others just get tired, pack their things and decide to look for a more fulfilling job elsewhere.

[Saul Goodman]

EXACTLY! That special "chemistry" is what is usually is called True Love. What causes it? Why some couples have it , while some (try as hard as they might) can't?

 

I'll use my own marriage as an example kar. I see it as an interesting case.

 

When I started dating my wife, the gears just clicked into place during the first year. The good outweighed the bad. IMO that is chemistry. It happens naturally. It happens because each spouse is honest with themselves, and with their partner(s). Basically, ya make each other happy. You want to make each other happy. If my relationship with my wife was a job...I loved it.

 

If the couple has to "force" things or hide things early on or p_ss around in some other way...I see that as a recipe for disaster. So there are plenty of couples (like CM maybe) that were never meant to be. I was always upfront and honest with my wife during the early years, and I think (well, I hope) that she was honest with me.

 

Here's where things get ugly...

 

I think that there are unrealistic attitudes towards relationships. People change over the years; sometimes they want their spouse to stay in their life on a romantic level and sometimes they don't. Chemistry can peter out no matter how hard people work on it (I don't advocate ending the relationship until every avenue has been explored...but there are plenty of relationships that are unhealthy). I never expected my relationship with my wife to last for life. I wanted it to. I hoped it would. But I never expected it to. People need to be more grounded about this IMO.

 

And no matter how the relationship ends, it all comes back to honesty and not p_ssing around with each other. Which is what causes a lot of the pain of an affair, or anything else really. My stbxW changed. That in itself is not the issue. The lack of honesty and not p_ssing around is the issue.

 

Emotions can't be controlled. The way to handle emotions can be.

 

All I know is...relationships are complicated.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[reboot]

Once love is gone, it's gone.

 

That's simply not true.

[karnak]

I'll use my own marriage as an example kar. I see it as an interesting case.

 

When I started dating my wife, the gears just clicked into place during the first year. The good outweighed the bad. IMO that is chemistry. It happens naturally. It happens because each spouse is honest with themselves, and with their partner(s). Basically, ya make each other happy. You want to make each other happy. If my relationship with my wife was a job...I loved it.

 

If the couple has to "force" things or hide things early on or p_ss around in some other way...I see that as a recipe for disaster. So there are plenty of couples (like CM maybe) that were never meant to be. I was always upfront and honest with my wife during the early years, and I think (well, I hope) that she was honest with me.

 

Here's where things get ugly...

 

I think that there are unrealistic attitudes towards relationships. People change over the years; sometimes they want their spouse to stay in their life on a romantic level and sometimes they don't. Chemistry can peter out no matter how hard people work on it (I don't advocate ending the relationship until every avenue has been explored...but there are plenty of relationships that are unhealthy). I never expected my relationship with my wife to last for life. I wanted it to. I hoped it would. But I never expected it to. People need to be more grounded about this IMO.

 

And no matter how the relationship ends, it all comes back to honesty and not p_ssing around with each other. Which is what causes a lot of the pain of an affair, or anything else really. My stbxW changed. That in itself is not the issue. The lack of honesty and not p_ssing around is the issue.

 

Emotions can't be controlled. The way to handle emotions can be.

 

All I know is...relationships are complicated.

 

I agree with everything you post. But I still have one remaining doubt about all this subject:

 

Do people really change? Or do they merely decide to hide their uglier sides? The way most people decide to only show their luminous side when they're in the dating phase.

 

Throughout my life I've changed many things about myself. Things that I considered to b harmful to me, while keeping those that I considered healthy. I've changed that's true. But, really, I don't think I've changed my own "inner core". The same essential boundaries I had when I was a kid are still with me today. I've changed, yes. But those changes are more "superficial"(not to confound with vain) than anything else.

 

I've really done some stupid things in my life. And i mean REALLY STUPID. But it's the kind of things one does when we're emotionally or psychologically imbalanced. I "wasn't myself" then. As soon as I got better I owned to my mistakes and apologised to those I have wronged.

I don't intend to do those things ever again.

 

I have a really good woman friend. We're almost like brother and sister. She lived a very healthy and happy existence. Until she reached her 30's...

Then some very deep and complicated issues, coming from as early as her childhood started to emerge. A woman who was once, apparently, emotionaly and socially healthy suddenly turned into something completely different. She became a sort of sex maniac. Her world almost crumbled. For 5 years she lived in hell and she almost lost became insane (as in "Asylum Insane").

 

Forntunately she's much better now. She managed to overcome her own inner demons. The battle almost cost her sanity.

Now: did she really change into a different person? No. Her character flaws were always there... Since the beginning. I now, in retrospect, can see that. A "click" somewhere just set her demons free.

Lucky for her, she really as a gentle and good core personality. That's what saved her in the end. Otherwise she'd now be a slut, with a different guy in her bed every night if she wanted to.

 

She admits that her dark side was always there. But she never had the guts to face it and try to vanquish it, once and for all. Her dark side eventually got stronger and fed on her fears and insecurities... until it had the strength to emerge.

 

I just told this story to illustrate a theory: maybe the people who desert and destroy a marriage have always been the way they later appear to be. But they just to try keep their inner demons locked away, not assuming their really existence and not wanting to fight and destroy them. Until the day when they break free from their cage. And selfishness, futility and hatred take over people who were once gentle, loving and kind.

Edited September 15, 2011 by karnak

[dontKnowMe]

EXACTLY! That special "chemistry" is what is usually is called True Love. What causes it? Why some couples have it , while some (try as hard as they might) can't?

 

Great definition, Saul. Some people do like to be in a place and work their asses off to give the best of themselves in that particular job. Others just get tired, pack their things and decide to look for a more fulfilling job elsewhere.

 

Karnak,

 

I'm with you. If you could choose who you love then what's the point of dating? Just propose to anyone you see because you could just work on things and it will all work out.

 

And people make mistakes. Sometimes the best good for everyone is to admit the mistake (marrying the wrong person) and move on.

[debtman]

CM,

 

Sounds like you're stuck with a choice...

 

1) stay with your husband and don't say anything, just keep moving along, always wondering if OM would have "made" you happier. Your son will see a mediocre marriage with little love.

 

2) stay with your husband and work on your marriage - if you want this to REALLY work, and have a chance of giving your son a healthy household, you NEED to be completely honest with your H, tell him everything. Tell him you had a choice to make and you WANT to work on your marriage with MC, IC and HONESTY. If you're going to stick with this, it's going to be a LOT of work. You may never get the "spark" you have with OM, but, chances are, after 6-8, that spark will leave. Just ask my stbx.

 

3) get divorced and run off with OM - yes, it's the selfish choice, it will make things more difficult for you, you will miss out on large parts of your son's life, you will have lots of animosity with your H for years (even if it's an amicable D, there will be resentment, hurt, anger, etc.)...but you will get to pursue OM (which will distract you from your relationship with your son) and, maybe that will work out...it's a gamble.

 

4) get separated/divorced and find yourself - tell your H that things aren't working, you're not happy, you need time, etc. Get an apartment, get a job, DON'T HOOK UP WITH ANYONE!! Spend some time on your own so you can figure out what YOU really want for YOUR life. Take a look at what it will take to support yourself and your son...maybe you'll gain some appreciation of what you have and what your H does. Maybe your H will gain some appreciation for who you are and what you do. Give yourself a year...NO relationships!!!

 

Anyway, I would have done ANYTHING to fix my M before my W ran off with OM, took the kids, took 1/2 my income, etc. Maybe we could have made things work, but not without lots of work, lots of changes, etc. Now, I'm 11 months into our separation and a few months away from finalizing the D and I'm happier than I've been in years. I enjoy my free time, have made LOTS of new friends and re-established old friendships. I'm more active than I've been in years and trying all sorts of new things and really living my life. The time I get with my kids is more precious than ever now and I take advantage of every minute I get. I feel that I'm closer to them than ever, even though I get less time with them.

 

Meanwhile, my stbx has broken up with OM (I don't know the details and don't want to) and is now constantly talking about reconciling, working things out, etc. and, it's too late. I will never again put myself or my kids in the position to be hurt like we were before.

 

You are young, your son is young. Even if you stay with your H in a less than perfect relationship until your son leaves the house, you'll be in your early 40s. Still WAY young enough to start over, find new love, look for that "spark," etc.

 

My advice is to tell your H and try to work on your marriage for the sake of your son...and yourselves. If you don't want to work that hard, try finding yourself. If you don't want to work that hard and want to take the easy, selfish route, go after OM. Jump right into another relationship. Hurt your H in ways he never thought you could...and hope that OM is who you think he is. After being together 6-8 months, chances are, you'll learn that he's not, you'll find that you're still not happy...things are back to the same old routine, etc...

 

Whatever you chose, PLEASE stay focused on your son and remind him that, no matter what happens, you and his dad love him, always will and that none of it is his fault...

 

Good luck and keep posting...

[karnak]

Karnak,

 

If you could choose who you love then what's the point of dating? Just propose to anyone you see because you could just work on things and it will all work out.

 

 

That's what people used to do in the old days. With arranged marriages and such.

Lucky for the men in those days that a woman would be almost lynched if she had an affair.

Were the marriages happier then? Were they relationships of love? I don't think so. But everyone thought that was the way the world was supposed to work. And everyone abided by the "rules".

 

Nowadays divorce is common thing and socially acceptable. And infidelity is starting to run the same course. Most people just "go with the flow".

 

Remember, kids: in ancient Sumeria (3000 BC) adultery was punished with death. Now, for infidelity to be so severely punished it's because they were desperate to prevent people from doing something that otherwise would run out of control.

 

Some persons say that "people change". Well... humanity seems to have changed very little in these millennia.

[Saul Goodman]

Do people really change? Or do they merely decide to hide their uglier sides?

 

IMO both are equally valid, kar.

 

Many are dishonest with who they are from the start. As said before, this is a recipe for disaster.

 

But some people genuinely change. The person you are today is not the person that you were yesterday, if you get my meaning. Every single life experience that you go through affects you on some level; your "core-self" learns and develops from them. I don't see your core-self as being so static.

 

The person that my wife was at age 25 is not the person that she is now. She has decades of personal growth over her past self.

 

Now: did she really change into a different person? No. Her character flaws were always there... Since the beginning.

Ah, but she did change didn't she?

 

Some part of her "snapped" allowing her to become so crazy in the first place. What was once suppressed. became unsuppressed. That's change. Perhaps you think of that as superficial (I really don't know) but I don't consider sanity to be a very superficial kind of deal.

 

And now that she has healed herself from this experience, she's changed again. She's grown as a person by facing and purging her inner-demons. After seeing the worst in herself, her core-self has developed and become something stronger. Isn't that change?

 

That's simply not true.

You don't think so? Why? I'm referring to romantic love specifically.

 

I'm talking about when the love you feel is truly gone. Completely. Fizzled out entirely. Nothing helps. As in, at most, you see them as a brother or sister. When it's gone it's gone. MC doesn't help. Nada.

 

However, in relation to the "people change" theory, it's possible to create new romantic love with that same person. When I see people that split up, only to get back together 10 or 20 years down the line, I think that the love they had was either still there on some level, or that a new form of love is created between them.

[CrazyMom]

Thanks everyone for all of your replies.

 

I do feel like I loved my H when we got married and had our child. I definitely wouldn't have done those things otherwise. I've been thinking about my past relationships a lot to try to find a pattern that may help me figure out why I'm acting/feeling this way. Before H I was always the "chaser." I always went after the preppy/player type of guy. H was different, he chased me. I didn't want to date but we got to know each other and I changed my mind. So maybe that has something to do with all of this.

 

I agree that the core of a person may not completely change, but situations that we go through can cause us to change our thoughts/outlooks on things.

 

What I'm struggling with now is whether or not the passionate love for my H can come back. I've always thought either you love someone or you don't. You can't choose who you love and you can't make yourself love someone that you don't. So that's where I'm stuck. If the spark can't be reignited then do I stay in this empty marriage so that my child can grow up with both of his parents together? Yes, I realize my child may sense unhappiness but it's not like I mope around depressed all the time. We don't have big fights, we just argue about what seems like normal stuff that couples go through. We laugh, we have fun together but it just feels more like a friendship to me at this point.

 

Saul - I definitely notice that I seem to care more about OM feelings than my H. After all, if I did confess to him I wouldn't want to tell him who the OM is in order to protect the OM. So essentially I'd be choosing the OM over my H in that aspect. I still feel a connection to the OM and since it's stronger than the one to my H at this point I guess I gravitate more toward protecting him.

 

Karnak - I have heard the same about people being together for so long and still being madly in love with their spouse like they were in the beginning. That's what I want so badly and feel like the possibility may already be gone with my H. Like I said, I think you either love someone or you don't....so can the feelings come back? Do I want them to come back? All things I need to figure out.

 

Does the "work" required to maintain a marriage include having to re-build feelings when they've gone away? Is that a normal part of the flow of a marital relationship? Or is the loss of "spark and passion" for my husband something that's just gone and won't come back. I understand that marriage takes work, I wasn't expecting it to be a walk in the park. But I assumed that my feelings would stay the same. That I'd always be madly in love with my husband...and I'm just not. I love him like a friend, a parenting partner. Someone that I care about and can trust and feel comfortable with. Not someone who I want to be intimate with and feel crazy in love with.

[Tiberius]

Not to mention that there is a good chance this guy you fell for will drop you hard and fast when you try to get serious with him. There is a reason guys go for married women, all the fun, none of the obligations.

[andyg99]

I love him like a friend, a parenting partner. Someone that I care about and can trust and feel comfortable with. Not someone who I want to be intimate with and feel crazy in love with.

 

you can expect your feelings for the next guy to fade in a similar way... you can grow up now or grow up later or never, the choice is yours...