jmargel Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Bob, See, you are overreacting again. Just because she wants to go out, doesn't mean it's going to be with another guy, or on a date. Going out means going out for a drink with a female friend or co-worker, or just shopping. You are thinking the worst of her, and she is picking up on this. This is what she means by you not trusting her. I can see why she might feel so upset. If you got accused (even indirectly) about breaking your vows just because you wanted to go out by yourself, wouldn't you feel upset? If she wants to go, let her.. Tell her to have a good time & stop thinking about it. You said you changed, well now is your time to prove it. I wouldn't recommend going off any medication without talking to your dr. first. You don't know what the complications or side effects might be. I wish you & her would take my advice about writing down your problems to each other. You both are avoiding the main issue at hand, just to save peace. -Jeff Link to post Share on other sites
VivianLee Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Bob, As Jeff said; don't just go cold turkey off your meds!! That is dangerous!! All medications have side-effects, the damage they refer too is usually due to very long term usage. The help they are giving you right now is worth the risk until something else comes along or till you don't need them BUT let a doctor decide that not yourself! Okay?? That could be the reason for your paranoia and reverting back to over-reacting.... Some of the things you've accused your wife of or have expected out of her is unreasonable. Have you ever asked her what it was like for her when you were on all that medicine?? All the things you saw that led you to believe she was cheating was going on in your mind when things weren't clear, right? Due to morphine? You boast of your faithfulness and how you would never dishonor your vows, just think how you'd feel if she accused you of such things?? I could be wrong but I don't think she wants to leave you over someone else, it is completely plausible that she is just smothered to death by having her every thought and action analyzed and looked over. I don't agree with how she has treated your son but I don't think it's because she's bad mother or she doesn't love him. I have a 16 yr old that has a very overwhelming personality! Your wife may feel just as backed in the corner by him as she does by you. People are like hurt animals when they feel they are being ganged up on or backed in a corner....the first thing they do it lash out so they can get out! Go on and continue living your life and getting on with it. Just leave her alone! Let her go! It doesn't mean she is cheating on you or even being a bad wife if she feels time away will help her get her thoughts together on what she wants with the marriage. She's been through alot herself. It is not easy dealing with someone that has been instable, mentally. She could just be tired and overwhelmed. You can't make her love you or make her want to stay, plus, wouldn't you rather have her decide on her own? As far as you could date or be able to date, I don't understand why that is something you have on your mind right now. Where does that fit into your son's welfare and your love for your wife and need for your marriage to work? I'm confused.... Take care and please don't just cold turkey off the meds!! Hang in there! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Okay, I admit I stopped zyprexa because of the reading I did about it causing all kinds of problems. I since started it after a couple days off of it.....anyway, I feel better and more collected. It is a mood stabilizer drug...by the way... Remember I'd said she took a trip and wouldn't say where? Well, the bill came for the stay in Harrisburg and on it was a charge for a movie, she didn't know it but the bill was itemized. The movie, get this...."My Slutty Wife"....nice huh. In all our years of marriage we've never watched an X movie, she didn't like them and neither did I. I certainly can't jump to conclusions, besides, the funny part is what kind of affair would it be if she needed a porn movie to "get into it"....lol, just thought I'd share. I called her yesterday at work and told her I thought it was fine now for her to move out if she wanted. I said this after getting the bill, opening it and then saying to myself, I'm "over it". I could handle anything but infedelity...but anyway, I resolved myself to not mention that I knew what movie she rented, I just said that the bill came and had her nights stay and movie, phone calls, etc...and what does she want me to do with it as it "should" be turned into the company. After I called, I regretted it because she kind of was paranoid....I didn't intend that to be that way, I was on the way to work and called on the cell phone as an "oh by the way" it is on the desk in the den. But the other side of me wanted to say something, it was hard not to. As for infedelity well, for YEARS and YEARS she was always saying uh huh when I got a plant or cookies from a customer for helping with their purchase of a car. Multiple, I mean without reservation MULTIPLE times I was accused of looking at a girls butt, asking me if I were cheating, and many other things along those lines to the degree I was on guard to make sure I didn't do those things like look at a girls butt. So much so I eventually became like her obsessive....yet she grew out of that and I didn't. She stopped saying that and I became that way after the car accident...well, it just magnified it all. Now I don't think it fair to classify a table turn on me as she would have PUMMELED me had I gone with my female boss and not told her. I avoided putting myself into that type situation in the first place, secondly, I also no matter what, no matter how I felt wouldn't do that...I know that. As for the rest, she creates doubt, I react to it..... By that I mean like Jeff said, we need to write down what is bothering us. If I did, I'd have to put the following.... How can she literally abandon being a mother, our son said to me the other day that he talked with mom about her moving out and he said to me that no way would he want to live with her. I simply said you need to really think about it....he said he did and would rather be in a tent or ahhh what did he say, O I know, he said in a row house in a slum befor e living with her. Then added he said he doesn't even know his mom now, she is totally different and I didn't say a word, I changed the subject. Just imagine how that made me feel? BAD....because I carry the guilt she placed on me that it is all my fault for this and that.....and she can't get over it. So here inside I sit all torn up because I feel the better part of me thinks I ruined HIS relationship by my actions. Ya, he now has a mom that is so backed into a corner that she is taking it out on him so to speak.... She says he is just like me.....and for that she can't stand to be around him because he "looks like me", acts like me, and all that so she avoids him. I know damn well she loves him but simply put, she has let ALL go. All go as in doesn't file bills, doesn't keep house, does nothing except once in a while, she'll make herself a salad or something but doesn't cook, nothing. I came home at 8:30 and she was doing her usual exercising, Bryan had no dinner, the house was a mess, and laundry was up to the gills. I made him some dinner, cleaned house until 10pm, and skipped dinner and fell out. Meanwhile she was on the phone laughing and cutting up with her friends at work. I've got to mention this... She called today and told our son she was going out for the night. He was quick to tell me the moment I walked into the door that "mom was going to The Woodlands...and I said cool. He just looked at me... So my son and I will go out, hoo hoo we'll go have a good time on our own. We're gonna go down to my friends house where my son's best friend resides.. and have a brew, note I say A brew as I can't drink with my meds. I will take all the advice, I'll back away even more....be so far out you'll see, I'll post the results. Thus far it seems the farther I pull, the farther she goes...the line just seems to be getting longer and farther away. PLEASE don't take the telling her about her bill out of context, I am just saying this is a prime example of BOTH of us not communicating. Who the heck would order a movie like that for 59 minutes, that is sick. IMO, I'd rather be celebate.... Don't most women not order movies like that? Isn't it usually a couple who order 'em.... See, I didn't go there, I'm not going to say that, I'm just playing devils advocate that I could have flown off the handle, said she was a slut and said she was this and that and been EXACTLY like the guy I don't want to be even if we separate/divorce. I want to remain friends even if this doesn't work out for the welfare of our son. And as for dating....I'm NOT saying I would date, I'm often wondering in the future how I'll cope, will I ever find someone, will I ever fall in love, am I spoiled milk? Am I worthless...on and on...and thinking if I could do this to the very person I want to spend the rest of my life with, WHO in their right mind would want me, where would I search for my "new" soulmate.... I'll stomp my feet in angst and say I don't wanna have relations ever with someone else. It is like a big huge hole...... Hey, I pondered my own life and believe me, I'm not doing anything but trying to reel with the nasty things she says about me then I wonder who the heck would want me. All I know is this, I'm a good guy, I'm faithful, and now aware of my own life. Hope you have a great weekend and thanks. bob Link to post Share on other sites
VivianLee Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Bob, First of all, people are more likely to watch porn alone than with someone. If you read all the posts on here about porn, most people are angry that someone is hiding it from them because the spouse is watching it alone. I've never seen a porn movie but I'm will admit (this is embarrassing to me and I'm so glad I'm not using my real name) that I'm curious and would view one if I could view it without getting caught by my husband or daughter (not the hardcore stuff) because I've always been curious as to what the big fuss is about. I know that when I view a movie with a love scene, it can be arousing so it's not out of the question that you're wife could be curious or even turned on by a movie such as that without any intentions of cheating or watching it with someone. If she acts funny about it, she is probably embarrassed that you found it. She'll be even more embarrassed when she finds out it was itemized on her bill to be viewed by her office!! Secondly, it sounds like y'all had some marriage problems wwwaaayyy before the accident. All that jealousy and suspicion wasn't healthy and had to make both of your live's a living HELL! I've been the one that was jealous and suspicious before and have heard how hard it was on my husband....walking on eggshells is not healthy for the marriage or the couple's mental well-being. Soooo.... ..Stop blaming yourself! Yes, you have done some things that are wrong BUT there have been existing problems for years...I guess it just all came to a head. Now that your wife has lost weight and gained a career, she has gained some confidence but maybe also has gotten the perverbial BIG HEAD, plus she is hurt by how things were when you were over-medicated and all this has just made everything that has been wrong for a while, come to the surface! Maybe she's just had enough and has become numb emotionally, therefore she is self-absorbed and selfish. She needs to get "over herself" and be a wife and Mom. She can choose to stop being a wife but she shouldn't and can't stop being a Mama.....that's just wrong!! Also, STOP making your self worth be based on how she looks at you. That's part of being co-dependent. Don't base your happiness, attractiveness and success on how she is reacting to you. If she doesn't want you right now, that doesn't mean that you aren't worth being wanted. Although she is one of the most important people in your life right now, she can't control your importance! Do you get what I mean?? You say women consider you attractive, you are hit on, you do well in your business and people tell you how well you do. Listen to those people, you're wife is angry, she isn't going to brag on you right now or even think alot of you BUT there are several people telling you daily that you are attractive and successful, for your sake listen to them and know in your own heart that you are a worthwhile human being..... If things don't work, you will hurt BUT you will be okay. You will make it even if you have to base making it on something you are doing for your son. He's worth 5 million wives, dates and business successes! He's the reason you should stay well and live well. He's an innocent bystander in this situation that didn't ask to even be born. Make sure if y'all do divorce or even seperate that you focus on his getting the counseling he needs and that he feels loved and secure.... One way or another, you are going to be okay! Take care! Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Hi Bob, To be honest that movie would bring up alot of curosity in me. 'My slutty wife?', isn't the title a little bit of coincidence? Connecting rooms? The fact that it's on the bill, but it was HER boss that went with her? The fact that she never watched porn with you? Porn for women, are usually watched as a couple. Her getting paranoid about it. Her going out like a teenager, letting the whole house go? What did she say when you told her she can go? You need to communicate these things. It's time to stand up about things like this. I know you don't want to jump to conclusions, but this is the first thing, along with the 'high heels' and the panties that it's really starting to make me wonder too. It could be the reason why she is acting this way, is because it's a defense mechanism. When a mate cheats, often they'll goto one extreme or another. Either extremely nice to their mate or treat them very bad, as she is treating you. You need to confront her on this bill. Asking her WHY did she order it, knowing it will be on the bill, then having to submit it to the company? And she didn't just accidently order this either. If she is cheating on you, then I feel no pity or sympathy for her. It's time to put an end to this all. Talk to her tonight and see what's going on. Link to post Share on other sites
VivianLee Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Jeff (and Bob too), You have given some "dead-on" good advice that has obviously helped Bob ALOT!! However, I do want to say a couple of things.....it is totally possible that his wife watched that movie by herself!! Maybe women that watch porn all the time or have it in their relationship usually watch it with someone BUT if she was curious and knew she had the opportunity to see it without anyone knowing (so much for that)....she could very well been inclined to "sneak" and watch one alone! Also, I'd normally say flat out (after the description of the white heels in February and the new underwear) she's cheating. But a couple of things make me hesitate to go there...Bob I went back over your posts and from the first page of this thread you (Bob) said this... I've never obviously had this problem for 17 years and it was my NOT listening to my wife's advice not to take Duragesic a synthetic morphine for pain which has her so pissed....and I might add rightfully so. I've also since the initial post been given different meds as my brain scan of my injury shows that the portion of the brain injured is the part which "normal" brain activity for rationalization is scattered and I was given a med for that So during this time, you were on morphine AND wasn't taking the right meds (not your fault) plus with the brain injury, your rationalization was as you said "scattered".....that's what keeps me from totally jumping on the "cheating bandwagon"....since you had so much going on in your head, I'm not sure there might have been a good explanation as to why she had these things packed. I would think that if she were up to something, that she'd been more discreet knowing that you'd look and check in the suitcase and see these items. So in a nutshell, as Jeff has pointed out, alot of things point to your wife cheating on you (at least in February) and having a lover. Then on the other hand, could this just be something that got misfired in your brain when things were out of control? If I were you, for your peace of mind, I'd hire an investigator and just find out what's going on WITHOUT her ever knowing. It's been at least 2 months since your first post, all this had been going on months earlier. It's time for things to come to a head or get straightened out. You need to know whether to move on and get used to a life without her or if you need to fight for this and work things out....being in limbo and a state of uncertainity is torture!! I totally know that!! Again, I'm not dissing your advice Jeff, there's just so many factors that make me pause to commit myself totally to the fact that she is or has been cheating....I may be wrong! Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Oh I can understand Vivian, and I feel bad for bob living this emotional roller coaster. The lace panties were no biggie, but when he mentioned the high heels it got me a little suspecious, especially since it was in the middle of winter. As time progressed, finding out there rooms (hers and the bosses) were connected by a door, and then the trip of her not telling him on where she is going. The stains on her panties, by themselves aren't alarming, but when mixed with the rest of these ingredients could show some signs of infedility now along with the 'Slutty Wife' porno. Something that she was never interested in before. Her attitude of not caring and being very mean is also a sign of things. Her saying she 'wants space' and her saying 'not dating'. Her meaning 'Not dating' could mean she truly wants to be by herself, or she found another man already who is beyond the 'dating' stage. Bob, I'm not trying to alarm you or get you into a frantic state. That's the last thing I want to do to you. What I want is this to come to a resolve. Like Vivian said it's been months, and you have been her puppet. You have paid your dues, you have shown her who you truly are now without the meds. It's time for her to come clean and give you a decision on what she's going to do. It's not so less that she is or is not doing these thing, as much as you are being thrown into wondering. She has admitted that she is attracted to him which makes things look more suspecious. Sometimes when a person is cheating, they use tactics like she is, to put the blame on you, so she doesn't have to feel as much guilt. She tries to 'rationalize' it in her own head. Now i'm not saying she is cheating on you, only she knows that answer. I'm saying yes, there are signs of cheating there and you are not 'crazy' or 'irrational' to think that she has. I want to let you know that you still have your head on straight. Don't act out on emotion and don't do anything stupid if she does admit to it. Either way you should talk to her tonight and don't wimp out on her. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Here is the sum of all my angst.... She "had" gone with him and I did blow a gasket but even if I weren't on drugs, I would have had the same result. She stated she didn't tell me because I was NUTS on him; meaning I had said the month before that I was pissed off at him for making her fly into San Francisco rather than Sacramento....See, she got lost bad, bad....and was crying on the phone. All I said in the past was things like...why don't you ask your boss, you like him so much, and when she was lost, I said to her that IF something happened to her, I'd beat his ass. And don't forget, before the trip to SF, I said to her "why don't you take rubbers"... All that lead up to her not telling me she went with him according to her. Panties, sure it pissed me....that was simply the fact I was suspicious since she packed and put white heels in the case....then denied while driving down that he was in the vehicle. It is a good thing I'm "sane" now.....a damn good thing. When she went to harrisburg, she wouldn't say where she was staying on purpose because she did say it was because I'd probed into a stay up state to see where she was staying the week before in May. That trip, she didn't take any shoes....but the trip to harrisburg had the lace shoes, underwear again and the shoes were worn. She had a conference....I know that....I had dismissed cheating. The room in harrisburg was not a connecting room, and there was no person of the name of her boss checked in, nor anything. She'd taken her own vehicle, did call us each evening, and had no cold feeling toward me nor gave me reason to doubt. It was the DEFINITE movie "my slutty wife" ordered at 6pm on her last night. The movie was kept for 59 minutes.....The last night, she called home around 7-8pm.... Even still, I didn't see it as a sign, rather a sign of wanting to screw herself or something. ??? After all, we have not been together since Feb....and as I remember a long time ago, she did want to get a porn flick which I said I didn't like. This was like YEARS AND YEARS ago... So Vivian it could be just what you said. BTW, it was after this trip that she got pissed off when I banged her hanging underwear on a rack while brushing my teeth and she got so pissed she moved into the spare bedroom. She said she couldn't stand my checking on her. I can say I banged it as I walk around while brushing but wasn't looking at her clean underwear?? I couldn't understand why she was so pissed off but based on the previous months, I can see why it pissed her off......When you sum up the checking, the calling to see if she was at work, the paranoia and little things I've done because I was suspicious, it adds up to something anyone IF INNOCENT would be pissed at. Therefore, my inclination is to just do as Dad said and give her space, who cares what she does as she apparently is living HER own life at this point and as he put it, I shouldn't "care" what she is doing as she has indicated it is over between us. Friday night, as I put before, she went to a club, danced.....drank. I know she went with the girls as she called them while I was home. She drove her vehicle to a parking lot and rode with one of the girls up to the bar. That same evening, they "closed" the bar and then came home. The car was left at the parking lot because she got so drunk, she couldn't walk no less drive and the girl gave her a ride home. I helped her get her car back on Sat and then she went back to bed. She was 90% or more able to sneak but went to the bar with the girls, not out with her boy if there was one. Here is where I'M at.... I'm "happy" she is still living at home but it certainly isn't a marriage, it is just a friendly relationship with a roommmate. Sunday, we all spent the entire day together, went shopping and out to dinner, and Cathy and I watched a movie together, no biggie. It seemed as if she was happy I didn't act like an a**h*** on Saturday and that I went out of my way to help her get the vehicle back. She went into detail about her night out with the girls and said she couldn't do that as she isn't 21 anymore. See, here is another thing, I noted the wedding ring on .... Not that it is a sign of anything but had she wanted to go screw around and pickup guys, the ring I presume either would have been left at home or left in her vehicle.....or something on that order. She had it on Sat a.m. while sleeping when I went to wake her and I know for a fact she was too drunk to be able to have put back on the ring. Hope that makes sense... I know a ring isn't much to go on but that ring to be is symbolic. Had she gone out with it off......I would have not been so willing to help get back her vehicle. Anyway, sorry to digress from what I wanted to say..... First, how do I look at her ordering a video? Well two ways, first, what kind of relationship would it be with another man if you have to have a video to get off, secondly, if she ordered it for herself, who cares, and lastly, I know this is cold but I don't really give a flick anymore unless she is willing to reconscile. If she wants out, it will eventually happen......I believe that she thinks roses will be red once she moves out and she'll feel like she is free from pressure. She is feeling backed into a corner and won't come out because she feels trapped here. Will I care when she moves out, apparently so....I'll feel depressed, angry, guilty, and many other negatives that I'll need support for. I just hope I can cope with it all..... How to cope.....the biggest concern is the guilt I carry for my past actions and how now "our" son won't have a mom at home, just the feeling of knowing what I did wrecked my 50% of the marriage hurts. It hurts to see my son not want to live with his mom because as he says, "I don't know her anymore"......this comes as a direct quote. This bothers me beyond ANYTHING you guys could imagine.....and I also feel sorry for her as she isn't smart enough to realize that what she has done lead up to my checking on her. I feel sorry for her that I was the way I am today, collected, not angry and definitely collected enough to be rational and not run over and over and over again by her telling me what a piece of garbage I am. I'm NOT wanting a marriage like this, all I want is a normal, happy, healthy relationship. I'm not a bad guy, I've got more good than bad qualities, I just made a mistake getting on morphine, she SHOULD know that I was dillusional but ignores all attempts ... she instead says it was my crutch. AAAAh I can't go there in this text, it is redundant. Instead I'd rather move towards coping with the fact she must leave in order for her to "experience" life as a single individual....note I didn't say a single female...I'm not 100% sure she is looking to be single but rather to disconnect from me, and once she sees that life alone isn't a bowl of cherries, she'll then allow for counseling. If not, it will be her LIFE LONG loss....there literally is nobody who will put up with her like I did. She was not the easiest over the years to get along with as she accused me when I was innocent, she is VERY controlling, stubborn, etc. When do I miss her most? Well, it seems I miss her most when she is home.....and things are "normal" and I think "how bad is this, this is fine, we're fine until she starts" make sense?? If on the other hand she has a mate, they'll regret putting me through all this making me feel like a piece of garbage crapola. As for hiring a private eye; nope....and why... because I'm no longer inclined to be checking up on her, I'm letting her live her life as an individual and I'm working on being the best person I can possibly be. If she has made a bed where she is cheating, a private eye isn't going to change that; calling her on it won't fix anything that is broken, and all it will do is piss me right the f off and that would just put me back in my quest to be whole. For me getting over that hurdle is a big step, before when it first happened and she went with the boss, it was "her" idea to go together and not something he planned. I know this because in her daily record in her planner, she had the note for weeks and weeks to ask him to share a ride.....not his. However, I also know he was sniffing around since he was in her office quite a bit from Nov to Jan....it was during that time she said he was good looking, bought him a nice pen for Xmas, and was working longer and longer hours. See, I'm digressing again from the fact I cannot rewind history....the more I dwell on the past, the worse I feel and one cannot live like that and be happy. I can only control myself, can only control today, but can plan for tomorrow whatever that shall bring. That movie.....well had I not been checking up on her to be blunt, I wouldn't have found out. It was her AMEX bill that showed her stay in Harrisburg. It was me that checked a "detailed" stay....But I wouldn't have even noted nor "checked" had she been up front as to where she was staying. She keeps placing these thoughts, she keeps on saying it is over; that the leg like her mother with diabetes and lost it....cannot grow back and she doesn't think we'll be able to work it out. So in essence, what can I do about her ordering a movie? NOTHING....it is the past. When you've had this much, there isn't any surprises.... However, I did react, I did call her at work and tell her I got a call questioning her stay and that I wanted her out. I lied about them calling; I just had no other way to tell her, look, I know you ordered a porn. I inside didn't want nor did I tell her specifically I knew it was a porn but rather that I knew she ordered a movie and where she stayed. She said SO....when I said someone called, she was pissed that someone would call and said that she was going to call AMEX and rip some ass. I later was told obviously that nobody from AMEX called because she called them.....I then said that I didn't know who called......So you see, as hard as it is to type out things, it was ME still clinging to checking up on her ONLY because of how she displayed herself during the trip by not saying where she was staying. I cannot, I repeat cannot nor want to continue to have to inspect what I expect.......nor expect anything less than if I check to find something that will place fidelity doubt. Why... Simple, I want and even wish I had not been my own private eye. Other than her not telling me where she was at, I saw nor see anything out of the ordinary. The jury will always be out on the trip to Maryland, the jury will always be out on the reason for the porn.....and until she comes clean or lets go or wants counseling, there is nothing I can do except to not obsess on things I can't control. I can only control my own life to not "go there" when she takes a trip, to not obsess when she goes out, to not wonder when she is at work or not, and to STOP the lies I make after doing EXACTLY what she doesn't want me to do which is check up on her. The sooner I can see a bill, not open the envelope which by the way wasn't hidden, it was on the kitchen table, the sooner I can fully say I'm being honest, and not be sneaky. The day I opened the bill, I was dressed for work, was about to grab my coffee and go.....but since I had stopped my Zyprexa I was compelled to obsessively and curiously look into itemized things. The bill shows movie rental, not the name, I called the place for the name. Shame on me.... But again, I can only tell the truth and stop hiding convenient details here of exactly what I did or have done. That in essence is lies told to you and myself.... Then again, playing private eye....look what it got me, into a pickle where I found the name of the movie, then asked if there was another person in the room, asked if it had an adjoining room, etc. Let me once again state what I initially said; I trust her, I'm only suspicious....that was the beginning of my text posts here, that is the same state I am now IF I allow myself to be suspicious, IF I allow myself to concern myself with her life. So what if she is innocent as Vivian said???? Well, obviously then I've culminated a HUGE hallucination, paranoia, and continued to feed my ever present suspicion placed by her. Jeff, Vivian....I must this time conclude she was alone...call me stupid, whatever, I conclude she ordered it for herself. Why....because I don't have proof she was with someone, I don't obviously know all her sexual desires and fantacies. And like I said, once I recall a long time ago that she said she wanted to get a clean porn...I remembered that just the other day. She wanted one of those "how to love make" videos.....it was like in '96 or later that she said that. I'm perfect, ya I'll say I'm perfect when it comes to being a faithful husband. I don't like porn, it is sooooo fake, and the seeing whores play out roles isn't a turn on, moreover, watching an R rated movie with a love scene is to me more of a turn on than an X movie. I cannot change that, I just have certain core values..... My core values: Don't cheat, don't pet, don't flurt, don't have any contact. It is okay to look, okay to say "hi" to a pretty lady and smile without flurting, but I've broken one core value and it is to lie. I've lied to her about checking up on her, heck I've stretched the truth here because I to a degree want to get my points across which is unfair to her because she doesn't post a rebuttle. Making my point such as the video....well, I simply don't have the ability to write exactly the exact step by step method I had of getting the information, therefore, you guys can't exactly conclude I'm always telling it like it is because it is my side of the "story", not hers.......and not a detailed account. For example, how I got the name of the movie....that is a prime example where I said it was detailed. It was only detailed in so far as it had the place she stayed, the fact a movie was ordered. The reason I was cuious of movie ordered was paranoia and curiosity.....then when the hotel told me the name, I was pissed and jumped right into conclusions and probed deeper to see if someone was staying in the room.......WHICH of course, we'll never know. Anyway, I just want a wife to be a wife....a pal, and to get on with whatever should come. "Porn for women, are usually watched as a couple. Her getting paranoid about it. Her going out like a teenager, letting the whole house go? What did she say when you told her she can go? You need to communicate these things. It's time to stand up about things like this. I know you don't want to jump to conclusions, but this is the first thing, along with the 'high heels' and the panties that it's really starting to make me wonder too." When I said she can go, she said FINE....and then questioned why I all of a sudden am having this change of heart. I said it was because of the bill....and I was over it, I wanted out. (that was my bad side talking that she was in fact cheating).... but then I realized through what I should have thought all along because of my doctor's advice to STOP, stop obsessing on things I have no proof of. As for her going out....well, she seemed relieved I wasn't an a hole about her wanting to go dancing. By the way, I made it through that just fine and didn't obsess even though that place is the #1 pickup bar in the area. My dad kinda said it best... Don't stop her from living her life, she has fully indicated she wants to lead a separate life and it is over and to stop playing my hand or showing my cards because all it does is start a fight ......or worse. Thanks for reading.... bob Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Originally posted by jmargel Oh I can understand Vivian, and I feel bad for bob living this emotional roller coaster. The lace panties were no biggie, but when he mentioned the high heels it got me a little suspecious, especially since it was in the middle of winter. As time progressed, finding out there rooms (hers and the bosses) were connected by a door, and then the trip of her not telling him on where she is going. The stains on her panties, by themselves aren't alarming, but when mixed with the rest of these ingredients could show some signs of infedility now along with the 'Slutty Wife' porno. Something that she was never interested in before. Her attitude of not caring and being very mean is also a sign of things. Her saying she 'wants space' and her saying 'not dating'. Her meaning 'Not dating' could mean she truly wants to be by herself, or she found another man already who is beyond the 'dating' stage. Bob, I'm not trying to alarm you or get you into a frantic state. That's the last thing I want to do to you. What I want is this to come to a resolve. Like Vivian said it's been months, and you have been her puppet. You have paid your dues, you have shown her who you truly are now without the meds. It's time for her to come clean and give you a decision on what she's going to do. It's not so less that she is or is not doing these thing, as much as you are being thrown into wondering. She has admitted that she is attracted to him which makes things look more suspecious. Sometimes when a person is cheating, they use tactics like she is, to put the blame on you, so she doesn't have to feel as much guilt. She tries to 'rationalize' it in her own head. Now i'm not saying she is cheating on you, only she knows that answer. I'm saying yes, there are signs of cheating there and you are not 'crazy' or 'irrational' to think that she has. I want to let you know that you still have your head on straight. Don't act out on emotion and don't do anything stupid if she does admit to it. Either way you should talk to her tonight and don't wimp out on her. I'm not frantic...... I remember the reason she took the shoes the time in Feb....she had gone shopping with her friend from work, she had been on Victoria Secret web site, she bought lace shoes at Boscov's, she said she took 'em in case she was going to go shopping to find a matching outfit. Said the shoes were on sale at Boscov's... I did say later the reason I had the thought I did. I said I could imagine you parade around like a fantacy when it is my fantacy to see you like that and it pissed me to thank you'd do it for someone else. It was then she said over and over that it was stupid, that she didn't even wear 'em and that I was nuts and she wanted a trial separation. So what questions do you want me to ask? It certainly can't hurt .... How can I ask the question if I've asked before? I've asked why would someone take shoes in the middle of winter......no less buy them. It was then that we fought and got nowhere. As for the porn....what can I say? I didn't have to say anything I'd assume for her to know that I knew she had a porn on because why else would I be so pissed off? I have said OVER AND OVER all I have to hear is her to say she cheated and it would immediately be over. I've said that countless times....and countless times she has said that she doesn't want another man, and after this marriage who the hell would want to complicate their lives with another man in their life anyway. That has been said over and over and over....but meaner. So again, what do I ask? Why get the same redundant answer? bob Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Bob, You didn't tell us before how you found out about the movie. This is the reason WHY she probably wants to leave. It's because she feels you don't trust her, and you don't. Trusting her would not be calling the place up and asking about the movie. Trusting her would not be asking them if anyone else was there with her. You say that you are going to let her be if she moves out, but I don't see that happening. The paranoia would just get worse. As in the quetions to ask her, don't ask her any about the night she stayed in Harrisburg, or the time she went out to the bar. By just not asking she was willing to tell you what happened that night. She could be seeing this as a control issue too. By you checking up on her could make someone feel that way. If she wants out then how come she is still living there? What is stopping her from leaving? I really think by reading that book 'Men are from mars, women from venus' will help alot. You can get it on amazon pretty cheap. As for her saying it's over, personally I don't know what to think of it. I would recommend that the suggestion was made for both of you to write down what you like & dislike (the problems you are having) with each other. Then go over each item one by one. To talk about ONE issue at a time. Meaning, ONE issue per night or per week. Get everything out regarding that one particular issue then go onto the next. Ask her if she's willing to do that. This can be very dangerous I can warn you, if you don't communicate with each other the right way. If she starts making this list you can't feel disappointed and rebuttal her claims, otherwise she'll be thinking you aren't listening. Let her talk about it and truly try to understand where she is coming from. She needs to do the same. She just can't live the rest of her life in the house and pretend the relationship is over. It doesn't work that way. You both are avoiding the issues at hand. They need to be addressed, otherwise this will continue until something bitter happens between you two. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 I don't necessarily think she is pretending it is over; she seems to be having a disconnect problem which she states is trouble finding an apartment. She acts at home STILL like a light switch, you don't know each evening or weekend if this is the good Cathy or bad Cathy, and I might add that there is virtually never a peep from me unless she brings up something that is a disrespect to my character. As our son said it best; she is not the same person and I don't know her. He went on...she used to be a friend and now barely a mom. I can see she has to struggle to be mom; by that I mean she goes out of her way on several occasions per week to say I love you which before was always said, always she'd go in and give him a hug before she left for work if he was sleeping, and now none. Heck, IF I don't come home and cook dinner, he gets Taco Bell or has to make his own. Even working and coming home late I'd make dinner if he hasn't eaten. Her priorities are #1 work, #2 working out, #3 laundry/dishes......and that is about it.....waaay down the line is spending time with our son. As for "the movie"...well, all I can say is with all the mounting aformentioned things like where she stayed, I was hunting. Not in a manner like before, but yet digressing from what I should do always which is to disconnect from all of it. I'd stopped Zyprexa which is a mood stabilizer which I never should have, I think so so so much clearer and rational while on it BUT I've read where some get pancreas trouble and there is a class action against the manufacturer. Please forgive me, I simply am really on the defense with each med I take after having such a tough time with some psycotic meds and pain meds.....or the combo. I had wanted to decrease doses to see if I were better....apparently I need them. Well, I better go check oil on her vehicle, add washer fluid and the weekly tire check...... Jeff, thanks....thanks for understanding, again, I don't know how to broach the subject of making a list; I just know she'll think it is something dumb, I just know it. Anything having to do with communication she has said that I already know what is the problem, ME....everything, not just one thing, things that happened in Feb just capped off being over it all. Anyway, I'm back from checking out the car for her..... I truly don't understand how I can constantly be such a bad person? I don't understand how I can let by gones be by gones....yet she clings to Feb like it was murder or like I beat her. My point which may or may not be valid is that had the role been reversed, man she would be mad as ever and just as distrusting or should I say suspicious of the things that have lead up to today! She used to check up on me....how you ask....well, she would pop in work unannounced after not being able to reach me. See, sometimes I would work with a customer and it would go long beyond closing. Thankfully where I'm at now they promptly close at 8 but before they'd close after the last customer is gone. Being manager I had to stay.....the mgt does stay until all deliveries are done but it doesn't creep into the 11-12 o'clock range...HOWEVER, when I was at work late I'd purposefully call home so she'd see caller ID was from work and usually stay on and off the phone to her until I was done. Back when we met, it was a long distance relationship, I lived in Mississippi, she in Clearwater, Florida....we spent hours on the phone getting to know each other and believe it or not I went from single to engaged within two weeks of knowing her. Neither of us was prepared to be married but once we connected, we stayed connected and were together IMO too much over the years, neither went out w/o the other, we went skiing, boating, hiking, biking, river rafting, camping, partying (with pot)--for close to 5 years when we were in our early 20's....which by the way, I'd never tried pot or anything except alcohol, she wanted it because she said it made her horny....just wanted to share that. Anyway, I got used to partying, we had friends over, I mean professional friends like Dr's, and we'd party out at our pool, cook out, etc....We both stopped and onlyshe was able to stay stopped, I had a very stressful job and used it once in a while to relax....then stayed addicted so to speak for another couple years after she stopped. She'd pester me to stop and finally I did.....sheesh I wish I had the money I pissed away....Honestly after I stopped I should have gone to meetings! I became kinda mean, grouchy, and kept the pressure of being on a tough job inside and it ate away at me since I was 100% commission. However, later that same year, I was promoted as I got my head on straight, every month seemed to get better and better for us. See, now we're into '95, she was about to graduate college with a BS in Nursing/AA in biology....and I was mgr. We planned to work VERY hard until we were 40 and retire. Then came the accident, I got depressed, had surgery on my jaws, lost my career, she understood.....put up with my ups and downs.....I loved being free of stress, had plenty of income, she then worked, and I became MR Mom.....I LOVED the part of being off, loved it because I still had friends but slowly over time we stopped all contact with them as they still partied and we didn't mainly because our son was now 8 years old. We'd stopped lots of the old stuff we enjoyed like skiing on the ocean, going to the beach. We upgraded our pool, had a nice small 980 square foot house plus garage that totalled 1200 sq feet and a pool. Being that I was now free to travel, we flew to LVegas, and many places.... Once we moved on the idea of moving to pa after a visit here in winter and seeing I had so much enjoyment of not having the heat, she even liked the idea of snow, we decided to "invest" in property. We bought this land and then somehow someone found we bought land and came to the door and made us a offer that was rediculous and we took it. So over the next month and a half, we went from being floridians to people about to move and build a home. I said I'd invest ALL of my small settlement in the house, we built this house and made it a home....BUT, now I was totally isolated up her atop a mountain with no friends except my high school pal I grew up with who has a full time job and everyone up here works days. She worked nights at a hospital, I saw her lots.....as she only worked 3 nights per week, we got along excellent. The April after moving here the following June '02, I started morphine against her will because of pain and lack of the same pain mgt I had in florida. I'd also had ALL my meds changed....over that summer '03, I became less and less connected with her, less connected to everyone and became nasty and bitter. I wanted to work but literally didn't care, I gained 40 pounds, only wore sweats, and spent money until we became in debt deeply. We went from care free to in debt.....I spent things I shouldn't have like a 55" tv, a big ole' tractor to plow, and then she with my help wrote a letter to the CEO of her company telling them how she was going to leave. This was after she started at her current job which entailed 5-6 days per week, and we saw very little of each other. I became co-dependent even more on when she would be home as I was only friends with her, nobody else. She was promoted to mgr during late summer and I encouraged her to do certain things at work to make it better which she did and then got all the recognition. This recognition was for the most part from ideas she told me about and I helped her based on my knowledge of leadership and organization. I was depressed though, envious of her position.....essentially worked through helping her. I was put on stronger and stronger pain meds as I wou say I still hurt.....and increased to a dose for cancer patients. It was bad.....bad bad bad......By Nov, I was so numb. Today, she took the paper with her to work, I know why, to look for an apartment. This sucks.....I mean sucks....bad. I know she'll move eventually and I want to try anything to keep her here......anything. I've done everything but beg. Here is all that I've done to change, I've stopped ALL pain meds which is the first time since '97, stopped all doc appointments for pain mgt, focused on myself not being a dick, stopped most of my irrational thinking, cleaned up my "act"....don't yell, don't get upset, have gotten a job, have a hobby, spend time with friends, made new friends, and regained my role as a competent caring person. BUT she won't acknowledge ANYTHING, not even the job, not even any of the aformentioned. She instead dwells on what I've done as if it is all my fault even though she says it has been broken for a long, long time. But note, ALL the things I did do are somehow etched into my brain as guilt, and what she did is etched as being suspicious as I don't know for sure if she did cheat or if I'm experiencing a live verison of a hallucination that took place before. This whole post has been very hard to write because it just emphasizes how I was and am now. I can't understand the fact I changed that she has changed too but for differing reasons. Her reasons are from the past which I cannot change, my reasons are from the past which I'm not proud of......and have since for the most part just been an idle person wishing for something that won't happen.....forgiveness. To hear her talk, I've been the worst husband a wife could ever have; I've been so bad that she'd never ever marry again.....so bad she never wants to experience it with anyone....and emphasized NEVER will marry again as this whole thing has been a disaster. Do you have any idea how badly that makes me feel? I carry a 2 ton burden of being yet once more a screw up.....this screw up is just one more of many I've done. My dad used to call me a screw up because I was hyperactive and couldn't pay attention in school/college so I was average to below average in grades. He said I'd be a ditch digger.... Once I married, she always took my side and actually fought with my parents of how dad treated me, of how I was psychologically and physically abused as a child......I was beaten for a bad grade, beaten for lots of things........ALL of which I've had to sluff off and just consider that I'm a screw up and not worth anything. Then add on doing morphine, getting hooked and screwing my son out of having a mommy......and here I am today, confident that I have a career, future, and focusing on my own self worth, seeing that I'm not such a bad guy after all. I've never done anything but beer and pot....never cheated, never even was unaccounted for, adore my wife, adore my life, and cherish the few months since I've realized myself all over again. I will be promoted to mgt soon, I was told that.....and I just cannot fathom WHY she is hating me so much. She is a jerk, she is a nurse and should know I was screwed up.....BUT clings to the past, won't talk about anything....just reiterates she is over it......and doesn't know if after we split up if we'll ever be back together. She says she wants freedom to be able to go to the grocery and not have to be accountable what time she'll be home---that is an exact quote....she said to our son that she and I are going to do a trial separation, not a permanent one. She has this head strong desire that she thinks all will be POOF--GONE... once she moves out. My doc told me that she'll actually MISS being part of co dependency since we were so close for so long and will get lonely real quick. He said this phase is either because of any of the threee reasons: another person, just wanting time alone to see how she likes it, or is so hurt and never did anything and cannot forgive.....and add to that the likely possibility she is going through the change. She told me her periods are still TERRIBLE even with being on birth control now......yet to her, nothing is wrong with her except wanting out of our lives, free of responsibility, and able to focus on her work which has become priority #1 and priority #2 comes waaaaaaay after number 1. I'd better go to work....c....ya. bobI Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Bob, I read your post. She can be going through a depression herself as well. There's not much I can do to help her if she's not willing to see a counselor, or at least respond to my emails. You two need to talk about things in a non-threatening way. Her saying she wants to be able to goto the store without feeling getting asked 20 questions, is her way of saying she feels like you are controlling her. Perhaps acting more like her parent than a husband. I wish she would speak on here, to at least give me something of her view on things. She could be feeling 'ganged up' by you & your son, so she then goes into her own little world. When you mention she is a jerk, that's just frustration on your part. Yes, she has been acting selfish but this is her way of dealing with the situation. I was mentioning about writing things down so that she can get alot of things out that is inside her. I believe writing allows you to think before speaking, therefore allowing you to get more out. You two also went through alot of changes in the past couple of years. I believe that is also a contributor to all of this. My fiancee had alot of changes in the past few months and it's taking her a little while to adjust to things. We found out that was one of the main reasons why we were having problems. You have to understand your wife lost her friends, her job, her home, her envirnoment, different climate of weather, things she did before down in FL, she can't do here in PA. So that's at least six different changes she's been through, without having to deal with the relationship aspect of things between you two. Ask her about this and see if this might be part of the problem. I don't think this whole thing happened with the incident in Feb. It was a number of things that were leading upto it as well. Try to talk to her tonight about these things, but if her main desire is to have 'space' then give her as much as she wants. There is no way you can coax her into staying. I mean would you really want that? Talking her into staying, knowing she really wants to go? You have to realize that you can't 'fix' her. That all you have been doing the past month or so is to help yourself. You need to give back to her the responsibility for her own actions and solutions to her problems. You are burdening yourself with too much relational weight. The problem isn't all with you as she is saying. The ingredients of this problem stem from you, her, and the massive changes in a short period of time. And until she understands this and is willing to see a counselor, the same behavior will continue. Her periods of highs and lows do show signs of depression. Though I am not a doctor and can't diagnose her, I know a number of people like her, who have depression. This is a common thing. If she wanted to get involved in couseling here is what they would go through (usually). It's done in a series of steps: - Define and diagnose where the relationship is now - Get rid of your wrong thinking about the relationship ** Find out what you are doing to hurt the relationship ** - Internalize the values needed to build and maintain strong relationship - The necessary format for a strong relationship - How to reconnect and manage the relationship The one in the asterisks is the one you two need to concentrate on. Both of you are doing things to hurt the relationship. She doesn't know how to go about dealing with all of this, so she is in essence running away. But you have to understand, no amount of pleading will get her to see how to deal with this better. It'll be her way of thinking 'If I stay the same routine will keep on happening, and there is really no hope that anyone could help us improve things and help me take away the hurt I have'. This is where she is wrong, however. She needs to give it a chance. Order the book 'Relatioship Rescue'. Phil McGraw is the author. I heard it's a really good book. Both of you should read it and do the tests that come with it. It's probably the closest thing to a counselor. You can find it on amazon.com Hang in there and keep us posted. And please try to do the things I have recommended to you. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 I have the book Relationship Rescue....If I read it, sure it'll help me but certainly not her as I assume she wouldn't read it as it has been here for months. I did reason out my obsessions and eliminated all but dealing with the aftermath of what part I played in the destruction of the relationship. That burden along with the fear of the future downs me; thank goodness I have proper meds to help is where I'll leave that. I truly think her perception of counseling is that it will focus on not just me but her as well and she wants to hold to the mindset that it is all me, not her.....and that she wants to fix nothing, separate and see....feel freedom. Incidently, I NEVER question where she is going, what time she is coming home, in fact I've alienated myself from anything to do with her personally....the string so to speak is out as far as can be let out. Our day to day relationship consists of passing hello/goodbye....and spending idle time together as a family but moreso as brother/sister than anything. Jeff, you've got her email, try to let her know you know ALL there is about my side of the relationship mentoring, at least she'll know how you feel about it and if you tend to side with her on certain issues, exemplify them...... We need counseling, my doctor yesterday told me that I'm doing all I can and basically edified all you've suggested. He said "she knows where to find me if she needs me"....and that he isn't concerned with her as she isn't his patient, I am.....Stop talking about her problems, he agrees she has problems but says that she wants to end the relationship and that is that....I told him that I'm accepting of that fact and he asked me how I felt about it and I said I'm ready to accept whatever the future holds but have certain concerns about the fear of the forthcoming split. He said stop worrying about the future and hold on and focus on things I can control inside, think thought elimination when uncertainty enters and instead think about this week and what I have to do around the house, at work, and definitely do things with Bryan. The key he said is to act happy, show little negative emotion and when I act happy it indicates I'm not negative or controlling of her present state. Hope that paraphrase make sense. He did say counseling for Bryan and I might eventually allow her to come to a session to talk.....but counseling will help the two he is concerned with, Bryan and I....we're both patients. Bry doesn't talk to him anymore but he was his counselor/psychologist for many a year. I learned from Dr. Boutin......which by the way, his email is [email protected] and put RE: Bob L and spell the last name...anyway, he said ; any advice he'd give her wouldn't entail her changing but rather to understand that impact she will leave once moving and the empty home she will leave for her son....and how BAD he will feel towards her. He thinks she thinks Bryan is okay......not true, he said if bryan is acting like he is angry with her now, he'll hate her more after moving as he'll feel she abandoned him in the process. By the way, she has completely stopped saying I love you to Bryan; he told me that....I often wonder how a mom can do this to a teen she reared for many a year and even at one point felt like a failure. Ya, she said she feels like she was a bad mom to him long ago and I at the time coushioned the positives she has done, and helped her through that period. That period was years ago..... As for the aformentioned things you've stated about the environmental changes..........YEP, I agree. Her work is now her salvation, not to mention she has no activieties outside work. Work to her is an escape where she feels she gets receipts for her good deeds and at home, there are none.....NONE.....all is negative. Here is my conclusion....I've done all the effort, she has done 10%.....why, because her emotional side controls her negative thoughts. Dr Boutin told me how when one person is holding a grudge that they feel they've tried before the grudge and therefore the grudge is just the blown out candles of a marriage. In order to relight them, I must allow her to move out since she isn't willing to talk .... He said she'll probably move out, then feel like she is still trapped since the same inner feeling will still exist and she may choose divorce to solidify her feeling and I should accept it. Dr. Boutin also said before that once one divorces, OFTEN the regret because they've eliminated the partner then realize it is to a great extent themselves that has to change. Her changing clothing to lacy undies, and things on that order has ZERO to do with cheating, in fact women now are more into that type garment than ever....he has several clients that are going through being pissed off at the wife/gf for doing the very same thing.....all it is .... is a trendy thing. As for the movie, he laughed and said BOB, what do you think...and said it isn't worth talking about because a movie was ordered, if I had reversed the situation and ordered a movie in the privacy of a hotel, it would be to satisfy the lack of sex...and don't look into it more. He did ask what date she ordered it which I thought was odd......and I said it was the last night there. He said IF there were someone, probably but not certainly they would have ordered one each night IF the "john" were into it.....and besides, that is something she did personally, not a sign of anything. If I have no proof....then shut the f up...stop obsessing. He said SO....what does that prove? And for her not telling where she was simply was her way of being free and in control and in some aspects getting back at me for the lack of freedom as if to say SEE....HA HA, I'm here and you don't know where I'm at. If you could email him, I'd appreciate it, he is super, super cool.....but does yell at me to stop turning the noose tighter around my neck. He said and I must agree.....you've done everything we talked about your doing to change and perhaps she resents that it took THIS to cause change......and if I had the ability before why didn't I do it before it was too late!!! Makes sense....huh... So in essence she detests that I changed....she has to resort to way in the past to keep the emotion alive. I never thought of it that way! I thought that her seeing would be believing....but he said no, her seeing only exemplified that I was so so so opposite and I could have done it all along....and that my old self was worse than she'd imagined because I'm so much on the other side now. To see a depressed, drugged up, obsessive, angry man turn around seemingly isn't for her but for me and why didn't I have this attitude before because if I loved her truly, I wouldn't have gotten things so bad in the first place. Therefore, she feels unappreciated......That is bad, bad....I said so if I reverted back, she'd feel better??? He said yes.....she would feel better about herself but would only then feel that I was temporarily stopping to make her feel better and not me. Talk about a deep conversation, he went on about psychology....he said PMA...positive mental attitude is all I need to do for now. He said he knows that her staying so long was truly her trying to deal with the metamorphasis I've done and since she felt it was all me and then saw the rebound, she is pissed that I was that way in the first place since it was her who warned me not to take the morphine in the first place. Ahhhhh, so that is why she said she didn't think I could quit or cope without drugs for pain.....and now that I do, it shows I was weaker individually and ignored her even more. He said he held back telling me this so I wouldn't feel guilty.... He said he wishes that I'd do the following.....sell the house, temporarily move to florida to give her space because he knows I'll need to be in my comfort zone. I really questioned his reasoning and he said simply put.....I've changed my environment....but not changed my attitude, I'm still feeling lonely, that is because of a lack of being with close friends who are my support system. Working will only temporarily fix that part unless I continue to constantly get "receipts" for doing good deeds.....and make new friends who are winners, not loosers...... If it is to be, it is up to me.... Thus in the end, he said I cannot control my own destiny and until I do, I'm not going to be happy.....way too many things changed once I moved here. I asked how selling the home would help, he said it would eliminate not only debt but a feeling of being locked in MY OWN LITTLE WORLD.....hmmm, you said something similar about her! See, you have missed your calling!! I told him of you and he said that it is too bad you guys live so far apart, you both seem to have so much in common and I owe you at least a lunch out. I didn't wanna impose....as I know you have your own life and this forum is the way you wanna communicate. He understood.... Well, time to hit the wet pavement and move on to getting the rest of the way to planning my day... bob Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Hi Bob, I'm not sure what good it will do to email your Dr., but if you want I'll try your wife's email one more time. It basically all comes down to whether she wants to try to work things out or not. If she truly doesn't, then let her go. Time has a way of healing things one way or another. If she decides she doesn't want to work things out, perhaps she might want to down the road. There's really nothing you can say or do to make her change her mind. It's what she feels what she has to do in her heart. You have to continue working on yourself. My best advice in all of this is to take care of yourself, but not to ignore her or her feelings. In order to look towards the future you must let go of the past. Apparently she isn't ready to do this yet. She doesn't have a constructive way of doing this. Bob, I know you want to make things work but you need to stop analyzing her in everything she does. Just be there for her without letting yourself get taken advantage of. You seem to be communicating to us more about your issues in the relationship than you are to her. When your conversations are just greetings when passing by, nothing is being accomplished. She doesn't get to read or know all this stuff you write on here. Bob, if I were you I would read over the past few posts, then write her a letter. Not a letter of an ultamatium, but a letter stating how you feel, and how you wish she would communicate better with you and basically make it just a love letter. I did that for my fiancee, written her a love letter, with not much in my head to go by at the time. I was kinda surprised I had so much to say. It took 3 pages up. Write it, and give it to her. Let her read it when she feels comfortable in doing so. Link to post Share on other sites
VivianLee Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Bob, I was just going to address a few things you brought up.....I agree with the doc about the underwear but let me say as a female, it's not so much that it's a trendy thing...pretty, sexy lingerie has been around for years and simple, housewives have been buying them for years for no other reason than to feel sexy under their clothes...little things like that make us happy! I would even bet that your wife went out and bought some lazy things because of her weight loss. When a chick is heavier, it's hard to find pretty lingerie especially panties, they end up having to wear what I call "granny panties" (big ones that are lazy or sexy!! )......so I bet that was the reason for the panties and for other purchases of clothes that your wife has made since she's lost weight! I don't have a degree hanging on my wall but I truly don't agree or feel comfortable about the doctor's suggestion of your selling your house and moving back to Florida. Have you ever heard the saying that when you have a death in your immediate family, you shouldn't make any elaborate changes for at least 6 months to a year? If you divorce, you are going to experience the same emotions as one would if someone had died. I really advise you NOT to do anything major for at least 6 months to a year. Plus, the major change of moving away and out of his house could be hard on your son!! Another thing that has struck me when you describe your wife's behavior as far as not thinking of y'all (not just you but your son) and wanting to go out and drink with the girls...is that she could be having a bit of a mid-life crisis...she is approaching 40, your lives have taken a path that she didn't plan or maybe want and your son is soon to be out of the house...some people panic and don't even know they are.... Having said that...I don't think this is why she wants out of the marriage...I think there has been trouble for years (before the accident) and I think hurt and resentment has built up. I'd like to think that it's never too late for things to change and I wish y'all could work it out, never say never. But you need to have it in the back of your mind that it may not work out and start doing things that will help you and your son to handle this. If I were you, I'd put a limit on the time that I would allow this relationship to go on as it is.....there is too much pressure on you and your son....she either needs to get out or get with the program at hand. You have told her you would change and have worked on changing.....if she doesn't trust you are changing then she needs to give you some time to prove it BUT there are some things she needs to change and she needs to let you know if she'll stay long enough to prove it and give you the benefit of the doubt OR she is truly done with the whole thing doesn't care if you change or not...if that's the case then she needs to head out on her own..NOW.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 24, 2004 Author Share Posted July 24, 2004 I've got quite a bit riding on "hope"....what I mean by that simply is I'm letting go, acknowledge past problems, look at today and hope I'm a better person as a result of the past. I can tell you this; I'm more disconnected...BUT, for example last night she asked me out to dinner, we had a great time...when she came home, she was in our bedroom and I wanted so so so so badly to "ask" once more for another chance...and/or to sleep together. I know she has kind of boxed herself into a corner where she stubbornly MUST hold to what she said about wanting to move out. It is two fold, one, she doesn't want to lose "face" by allowing me to "win" by her staying as all along she wanted a "temporary separation"....this has been something she has said all along. Therefore, the other side where she is finding difficulty moving out ISN'T the fact she cannot find an apartment, heck all she has done is look online. Something inside is churning.... I have known her and know her like a book....she is as stubborn as they come. I've worked and asked so many times in the past for things or "one more chance" to the point.....NO comes with anything pretty much associated with my wants. I get this reply....Uhgh you just don't get it, I'm over it.... I have not "asked" directly for another chance in 4 months...actually we've drifted pretty far apart but see after all the years together I'm telling you she is trying VERY hard to stay stubborn. It is hard to stay mad at me, I'm a comic....I like to laugh and cut up once again and it has been since '97 that I've had a true self confidence boost rather than decline. You guys have seen the best and worst in me, my worst is far worse in the stubborn and selfish category than she is today. Cold is a good example of self descriptive single word of the past year for me. As for a love letter, i just don't know where to begin? I used to do LOTS AND LOTS of little things...and by the way, speaking of a sumation of our marriage before vs. now.....look at it this way, you tell me. ANYONE, I MEAN ANYONE you ask of our friends in florida WHO will always be married, WHO will grow old together...I bet 9 of 10 would say Bob and Cathy. Anyone who was told said NOOOOOO WAY, I don't believe it......you'll work things out then followed by I just cannot believe YOU GUYS... NONE believe it, we were like peas and carrots but did fight, both were controlling though. We are so alike it scary....we can complete each other's thoughts or sentences, neither can get anything past the other. HENCE the problem I had with her taking a trip with the boss and not telling me.....HENCE her aprehension to continue since I still cannot get over that lie. Neither of us have faced this paradygm, therefore both of us and yes ME TOO are stuck.....I cannot give in but I can forgive and forget so long as we don't have to go down the road of who did what and how and why...because the fact is, we both have been wrong. Salvation is not easy...especially when I tell her my WILL....to save, she reverts or recoils into a defensive posture, not a relaxed composure. I'll admit....things were better than most marriages we knew of up to moving here. Only once.....has she been so pissed off after I was an ass on meds to ask for a divorce.... When her mom found out about us splitting up, she did NOT believe it and said Bob is a good guy and you are going from the frying pan into the fire there girl......My parents basically said the same, our friends said the same.....BUT some person or person(s) have given her advice at work that she is keeping to herself. There is a fly in the ointment which I can't find. I know all this sounds like counseling is the KEY to turn the lock either way......I know all this....BUT by the same notion, I feel strongly she needs to be on her own for a while to see if she likes life better alone. She has never been alone....never....she was plucked from living at home to living with me. See I've lived alone before, I didn't like it....I had plenty of girly friends and played the field, she has never lived alone. Vivian, you kind of edified something my doc said....and Jeff I believe. She is at a point in life where she is wondering I'M ALMOST 40, IS THIS ALL THERE IS?....and along with that comes MANY points which go into that statement. I do NOTHING like I did for the past year now, I don't question, don't push, don't yell at our son, don't fuss at her, don't sit on the pc for hours, work, clean house, smile....(biggie)--didn't show emotion as I was numb, nore any of those traits she didn't like. Her past statements were like this.... "I know you said you changed, you needed to, you were nuts, you have no idea....I told you not to start the morphine but you didn't listen, things WILL be good for only a couple years then you'll be right back where you were before".......it is the last part which I cannot show enough I'm changed. To her, I'm displaying an "acting role".....like a movie star in a movie playing a good guy but once the movie is done, he goes home and is an a$$.... "get it"? There is much disrespect in the tone of voice saying I'll be like this for "how long"..... I've never truly changed so I could see why, I did change before but sunk or should I say "relapsed".....into a self pity poo Bob..... However, like when I was a manager of a dealership, I'm now more acute, more focused on myself, and bluntly, like yesterday when I helped out a couple who had been from dealership to dealership....I didn't sell them a car, I earned their trust and business and the husband told me so, the wife gave me a huge hug. They both remarked on how different I was from other "salesman". I'll work on constructing a love letter... As for my doc, when he said sell the house, he meant that I would be better off if things don't work out to sell.....and after Bryan graduates, move to florida. I'm only telling you or should I say I only told you in not so many words because I tend to make long posts anyway. Shoulda been a writer, huh.... Anyway, I'm definitely worth more than what she wants to admit.....she is cautious, I can feel that. See, if you can tell me a way to allow her to save face from what I put in this post, you tell me. It cannot include a counselor at this point...but she has to win, she feels or has felt I've trapped her into staying because of bills or our son....and since she felt backed into a corner, and has SAID what she has said, she can't just up and change her stubborn opinion......that is whether she actually wants to or not. I feel she is seeing that her staying is a way of giving me a winning ticket; her leaving a show of not being controlled. HOW do you save face and have her win in her mind and not lose? Bet there is no ideas on that...had there been, I would have done it already. BTW---what does this mean? She only wants to move out, doesn't want separate checking accounts, doesn't want to split bills up, doesn't want to separate car insurance, NOTHING, just move out for a while???? Tell me that isn't strange. However, she says she doesn't want to sign a year lease and that is why it is so hard to find a place. So why would someone what to not sign a lease? Why would someone not want to "separate"......but ONLY in anger feels backed into a corner where she cannot see daylight... Well, gotta go rescue the cat, I see him stalking the deer again.....lol, it is funny, he chases 'em. bob Link to post Share on other sites
From the Sidelines Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 "BTW---what does this mean? She only wants to move out, doesn't want separate checking accounts, doesn't want to split bills up, doesn't want to separate car insurance, NOTHING, just move out for a while???? Tell me that isn't strange. However, she says she doesn't want to sign a year lease and that is why it is so hard to find a place. So why would someone what to not sign a lease?" Hello PoconoBob. I've been following this thread from the shadows. Tough spot you're in. But reading this last bit, I felt compelled to throw my two cents in (I'm not real good in relationships so I know a lot about breakups). Anyway, if she moves out, do not maintain joint accounts. As a matter of fact, I believe that for you and your son, you should go ahead and open an individual account now (and move some money into it.) You have stated in recent posts that the woman living in your house sometimes seems like a stranger (even to your son). The "Bad Cathy" could easily make a trip to the ATM/Bank and clean you out. Don't think it could happen? Well, one of my friends is experiencing something very similar. He was married over 25 years. His wife goes on a trip back home to visit her family. In a phone call to him, some things she said don't add up. He confronts her in the next phone call. She tells some lies about needing time to sort things out...buying herself some time to drain their checking account ($2000) and leaving him unable to pay the monthly bills. In checking the family computer, he discovers that "visiting the family" was never anything more than rouse. Her plan had always been to reunite with an old lover. He's heartbroken (they had a good marriage), she had a good home, and they have a great son. And to top it off, the bank wants to know when he's going to send the mortgage payment! Don't wait for her to decide...decide for yourself and your son...move your money to a safe place. I realize you've got that egg shell feeling right now, so don't move it all at once. Start small. If your employer pays you through direct deposit, set up an allotment to go into your new account. Just my two cents, an armchair quarterback Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 26, 2004 Author Share Posted July 26, 2004 Here I sit.....wondering about this previous post. We've discussed this in depth, she ONLY wants a trial separation at this point. I can see your point clearly....How you say be ware and tuck away money, etc. However, understand this, IF she does this, I'll pull her down the tube by filing bankruptcy ultimately ruining her credit....secondly, she knows this, wants no part of ruining credit. Lastly, I come from a very, very wealthy family and what little she'd get from checking even if it is 9K won't destroy me, in fact it would cause my side of the family to back me and then she'd be in deeeeeep doo doo as my parents atty would then be called in to ruin any hopes of credibility she could show in a divorce. I was advised to have enough to pay bills for a couple months and I'm not worried. IF for a moment I was worried, I'd have wiped it out myself......so why would I wonder? Well I too have read and heard about people doing this, IMO it is a low down dirty thing.....but then again is leaving a person who was improperly medicated IMO.... In percentile of the chance of this possibly happening, it is 20% max.... Here is what "our" atty would do....first, write a letter to her corporation stating that she had an affair with a co worker and then go on with a letter stating what happened. Her corporation in their bylaws states CLEARLY how they are against dating within the company. He has already researched who would get the letter.....then he'd go after her for alimony. I'd get everything materialistic which exceeds the amount she could withdraw. I've also put a cap on how much can be taken by an individual on a daily basis...I put a cap at 2K per day on her without my authorization. It would be impossible to close the account too....I'm the first on the account, sure it is joint but I'm able to take whatever I wish and she has even a cap on her ATM of 800 while I have 5K...... My home is valued at 315K and she has signed it over to me.... --it states it becomes mine if she leaves the property and moves out. IF she would hire an atty....they are ALL hillbillies here whereas mine is a formadable nationally known infamous atty ... He structured things so it kind of bates her to take cash and run....but if she did, all would come down on her. We already figured the net assets we have and the furnature/home/etc....as well as our rental properties in Florida would be locked in probate. He swears I'd end up with everything except what she hypothetically took. Lastly on this subject.....My doc said to me that the very fact it is taking soooooooo long to get an apartment shows her confusion. Look at the situation, IF I stepped first and withdrew all the funds, I'd look bad.....not her....instead she'd look like the trapped little lamb and I'd be hit for doing this. Anyway, to everyone reading....I'm not out to screw her but I also believe she isn't out to screw me. I know, I know....beware...but I'm prepared. I trust my doctor....I do trust her.....I do trust my family and their friend/atty.... She is hurt, she is angry, she may or may not have a "john".....who knows? who cares? I do care to a degree unless I get screwed then watch out. She has ruined her relationship with our son, she has single handedly put herself into a position where she is in a corner, I didn't up and put her there, my former actions werent the best if you turn tables and have empathy for the situation. I actually feel sorry for her if I look at it the other way around..... Is it over? Who knows.....I do know based on many talks with my doctor on this situation that if she were to move out, she'd actually miss the parental aspect of what I have played as a role in the marriage even though this is what she wants to "escape"...... He said that it is like a teen moving out of the house on his own after being tied to mom and dad in a codependent household. In short, she IS GOING TO SEE that what she wants is happiness and that living alone isn't going to cure happiness......but it will depress her. As I have said over and over, she is stubborn but she is always there for us...what I mean by that is she has been like a light switch.....one moment happy, the other sad. The sad side isn't going to last if she moves out. This marriage wasn't "bad" for a long time, it has been up and down.....moreover the bad doesn't outweigh the good times. If according to my doc...she was wanting out....I mean out....she would be going through the stuff and packing what she wanted in the way of clothing/items.....and preparing to move. She has done nothing except look online for apartments, that is it. I am wanting counseling, I'm gonna write her a letter......and see if I can get her to the point of a mutual desire to try to live separately for a short period. She has said OVER AND OVER she doesn't want to sign a lease......why is this? Why is the key word we don't know....and counseling would be the best for all here in this situation, it is just getting her to go. My doc suggested that I get her to be counseled by him on the phone....but he won't get involved unless she makes the effort to ask him for help. He believes she is sooooooooooo confused because I have previously given her a list of things I wanted to change about myself and believe me, I've done every single one...except for the one she still clings to....the past. Therefore it makes it harder for her. She knows I'm making more money than I have made since '97 when I became disabled. I'd be able to pay off all our debts....which believe me has been a thorn in her side. The debt I incurred while on drugs was to become "happy"......it gave me immediate gratus and happiness which was missing......now, I'm paying off debt by the week in the thousands. I mean literally for example last friday I paid off $4,600 in bills, and put away 2K into savings which she cannot take without both signatures as it is a money mkt account. The upcoming pay check this week will be another 3K in debt gone....and I'm not just paying off mine, I'm paying off her debt in her name. She has 30K left in student loans, I've paid it up 6 months! So to sum it up.....why would I do the first move to further cause a rift? NO--I don't think so. Let her carry the guilt of cleaning out the account. IF she does have a boyfriend, he is going to get it and get it good.....I cannot purger myself by stating what will happen. Put it this way, one of my close relatives is "in" government.....nuff said. I know the post sounds crazy, I just cannot edify any better than I just have. IF some man has been the cause of my torture, I'll be for sure jailed......as she puts it, I'm crazy, lol....she ain't seen crazy. ) bob Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Hi Bob, I read your last statement, I agree with you on everything but this: "and see if I can get her to the point of a mutual desire to try to live separately for a short period." Your whole point in writing her this letter is to let her know you still love & care for her. A love letter isn't about finding a mutual desire to live seperately. She is confused, don't make decisions for her or push her into one. Sounds like you are a little confused about what to write. The whole point to the letter is to again, let her know you love her, that you have been making changes for yourself, which means they are going to last. If you were to make them just for her, then it wouldn't last. That you apologize for all you did, but that you can't change the past. You can just learn from it, and hope she can forgive and want to move on in life with you. Talking about a seperation is only going to push her further into the corner. She needs reassurance in all of this. She really has no one to turn to. Glad to hear you are paying off your debts. I don't want to be nosey, but your making $6k every pay check? If you are, send me an application -Jeff Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 First off today we had a fight.....she started on me about being a POS..that is piece of XXXX....brought up things I did over the years like spank our son when he was 6 for breaking a window, making love to her the evening of finding out her father just died, and on and on about even things like she accused me of intentionally taking her AMEX bill and calling to find out what movie. BTW, when I said it was an X movie, she turned beet red...and I asked who would order that themselves and she turned even red more. I brought up the shoes....she said I don't wanna talk about it. The fact is, she said when I said THESE are the things I want out in the open to talk with a counselor, she said NO...we aren't going to say OKAY, HERE WE ARE, HERE IS THE SOLUTION, WE'RE GONNA PATCH THINGS UP AND ALL WILL BE GREAT....WELL, I TOLD YOU BEFORE, I'M OVER IT, I DON'T WANT TO FIX IT BUT I THINK BRYAN NEEDS COUNSELING, she doesn't. She made me feel like a failure....I tried to say I'm sorry but you made me suspicious by your very actions and it is something we both won't get over unless we talk intelligently about it. Simply put, she said "I'm outta here", it is just hard to find an apartment....."you said get out of the house" and I'm going to in time.. She is too quick witted....waaay to unforgiving to find every detail of 17 years, to continue to just think over and over about ALL the negatives, zero positives. And when she brings up things I cannot change, I overlook the things she has done of late and feel bad as if I pushed her to the point(s) she is stating she doesn't wanna talk about. No, I'm not being depressed, she said of the "disability".....that to love, honor, cherish, bullcrap on that as for my problem of proper rationalization, she said it is all an excuse....."go ahead" use the disablity excuse but you can't tell me that the things you did before the accident were okay, you did things.... I only said what if the tables were turned, if you were the one ill.....I wouldn't do this to you....and her reply was ya, I guess I'm a piece of garbage for not staying. In the end, she said.....you have not changed, you called me 6 times to say I'm sorry about the AMEX bill.....so you have not changed a bit. I said, had you not placed yourself in the bed you made, I wouldn't have reason to be suspicious and you would do the same if it were the other way around.... Sunday, she wants to split up bills.....Guys, I need help.....I feel like a failure overall to push my former marriage which is now in ruins to be able to forget, accept, and move on. The question burning inside is does it get better once you move apart? If I completely let go of the person I love, for one thing, does the burning love go away? I just am in emotional turmoil over wanting to just give up, let her go and attempt to resume what I'd call a more normal life without her. She is VERY mean, cold, and quite nasty.....as if she is perfect or close to perfect and I'm not. I'm the FORCE which compells her to leave our son....that to me is a burden all in of itself. I feel there is no going back....and as a matter of fact I'd wish we could conclude to each other; look we both have done wrong, we need to be friends....but she is completely and utterly over it. I need help in understanding that the guilt she gives is wearing me out beyond depression......How could I have been such a bad husband for all these years? I'm 99% sure of separation and 75% sure nobody can get her and I to be able to discuss things and patch up a relationship, she is just too angry. I'd think the anger portion would have subsided over time but she keeps on doing sneaky things and it compells me to look for suspicious things. Why do I have this inner feeling that I feel like I'm unable to cope with the loss. This loss feels identical to the loss of a spouse to death? She can be soooooo nice and a moment later just like this post. And I don't just sit there and take it, I can't because SHE placed the suspicion, a suspicion I've never EVER felt before, a suspicion that she isn't telling me the entire story when it comes to fedility. So...a love letter? I might as well toss it in the trash can. And lastly, she thinks my doctor is wrong....she said he is only making me worse, not better.....that getting a job was great for me but she could care less....and on and on of how bad of a doc he is, of how bad I am.......then ended it with saying my dad was right years ago, I'm a F up. So Jeff, you wanna application? It is true about the income, you have to be different than anyone else in order to get someone to come in and buy. I don't rip people off, I simply sell most everyone I talk with because I tell 'em I can replace the car, not the customer....sure, there is profit but with Lexus, we don't discount them...Honda, ya, Toyota, ya....GMC and used, ya.... but it takes lots of patience and hours of being dedicated to EARNING someone's trust, you have to sell yourself, and the rest is history. Wish I could sell myself on the same level as I can with my wife..... Any ideas? bob Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 I just did something I have not done in a long, long time, I begged.....I know I shouldn't beg, I did anyway for her to give me another chance and she said NO because I'm still doing what I did before and she is outta here. She wants to separate.... Secondly, she DID say she'd go to counseling for Bryan, our son but not for the family....WHAT is this, would this be helpful? Could Caroline possibly wedge or probe into her discontent by making this a starting point? She definitely doesn't want to "fix" us....she is sick of me, and I'm also of the opinion that things are at the worst point because we've not been to counseling and she feels backed into a corner. I'm thrown all the blame over and over of things I've done.....even the littlest things are being thrown at me in an effort to make me feel like I'm all to blame. She said that I've controlled her, that I've put myself into this predicament, and there is nothing I can do or say anymore to change things.....that I'm still the same, that I'm still doing the same things. I said that I'm only "getting back" at her....for doing suspicious things, in fact and for that matter, THE FACT is, she has been doing suspicious things, we all can agree on that. But, why the heck can't I move on? Right now, here I sit on my day off.....I'm now going to change subjects... it is on the same lines and won't make sense based on the aformentioned but here goes. I need love, I need to feel wanted again, I want someone only to accept me for who I am, not what I'm not. I'm not the bad person she makes me out to be, in fact I'm inside right at this moment wanting relief from this stress as well. I think it would be a good idea for her to move out as well but that is deep inside. Superficially, I cling to my feelings for her, I cling to the dasterdly actions we've both done and know I could be okay going on with her but only because I need companionship. The companion I knew isn't there anymore, the companion I want for our son is a different person, a jeckel and hyde resides in her. When we don't fight, she is absolutely without question comfortable, but whenever she thinks about me, my actions, etc....she is the jeckel. Once again, I could have simply looked at the calendar and seen what "week" of the month it is and see that it is her time of the month.... Her periods are STILL very bad, she is still very moody. Confused? Is it normal to want to cling to an emotion and not a passion? My passionate side wants to move on and find eventually a "mate" more suited to this personality. All I want in a person is love, honesty, dedication to the vows taken. I think of the future and that is what scares me.....I think over and over about the fear of being alone, of the fear of rejection, and the fear of where to find that special someone everyone in life wants whether you are gay, straight, all anyone wants is to be needed, cherished, and happy. I'm not any of those, I fear I'm not worthy of those because I fear I'll get hurt again. Once again, I know I shouldn't think about that right now as I'm tearing my life to shreds, those shreds of life have varying shreds where on one hand I want to fix what is broken in my personal life. I HAVE changed have I not? I get pissed when I'm put in situations like what she did when she went on her trip.....it gets me to want to show her look, I know what you are doing, I know this and that as a way to attempt to show her just how bad I feel inside. showing her that she is doing things to me gives me a way to show she cannot control me and mess with my mind anymore...... She calls my disability a crutch....but looking at things from my doctors perspective, it is a permanent disability, I have trouble with rationalization, and OCD...and the meds subdue them as I don't "check up" on her like at work, like on trips EXCEPT for when she hurts me and I have to be compelled to strike back to let her see I'm hurt and here is how it feels. When she moves out, will I possibly be able to cope? I cannot forecast how I'll feel but certainly I won't be compelled any longer as I won't have her messing with me in an attempt to knock me off my quest to become a different person. As stated, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a differing result; hence once she leaves, there won't be the same thing over and over. I asked her to write down what is bothering her, she said what is the use, it is over, I'm over it, you already know how I feel and what the problems are......and there is nothing you can do to change things. I feel how I feel and that won't change so why write them down....end of quote. It was then I said, all I'd ask for now is to be friends.....and she said I told you I care for you but you don't know the entire story, I have not told you everything I feel......and it goes back over years, before we moved I should have left your as$. You've just been a fixture so to speak(paraphrase), I didn't have the guts to tell you before that I don't want to stay with you. Perhaps I have told you ....I'm just sick of it all. I'm tired of the games, I'm holding grudges from years ago when you wouldn't let me go visit my family and now my mom is ill and you ruined the time I could have spent with my mom. FACT--she and her own mother had a falling out, SHE had her mom living in florida up the road from us and disconnected with her own mom, and years later, she wanted to go fly to see her mom and we couldn't afford it because I was paying bills on one salary, I needed her at home because our son was in school and nobody would be home to take care of the child of 8 years old. I couldn't change that? And we also had 3 dogs, 3 cats at home.... I can recall only a couple times she wanted to go and I discouraged her.....BUT, I can say without reservation I purchased her mom a ticket to fly down literally 15 times. Why do I feel I want out...too. Yet I also feel feelings of a hole in my heart......yet want to move on as well? Yet it is a back and forth, back and forth feeling that once she leaves I won't feel like a heel as badly because she won't be here to upset me. I'm used to her not being here now, she is here only in body and I'm f'd when I think of how damn normal we are when we don't fight. I mean we're like biddies.....it is sooooo weird to have someone with emotions that hurt and literally 30 seconds later is talking about oh I don't know....uhhh some differing conversation like a movie she'd like to go see. I can't explain the light switch comparison I state. It is like she is so so so comfortable with me when she isn't in a grudge mood. It is like something words cannot explain. How did you feel? Did you have feelings you caused it all? Then later to find you weren't the root but just the stem of the problem? WHY oh why can I not be less like the light switch attitude she displays? I too will switch off when she berates me and tells me things like I beat our son? I asked him as I don't remember that and he said that I spanked him before but didn't beat him.....that is a quote... I for the record was beaten harshly as a child, beaten to the point of bleeding from a belt for bad grade, punishment where I'd have to stay in my room for every hour of each evening from the time I got home until dinner, after dinner back to the room until bedtime.....and then harshly reminded of how much of a screw up I was, and my brothers were told to stay away from me as I was a loser. My mom....bless her would let me out when he wasn't home but I had to run to the bedroom and study as soon as his headlights crested the hill. I never knew what it was to be a caring person, I was instead made codependent because Cathy made me feel special, made me happy, made me change years ago and in essence I became part of her family and her mom was like a mom to me moreso than a mom in law...... I never talked about this to my doc, I don't know why......I assume it is because of the embarrassment of the way I was treated. One more thing, the man I call dad is my adopted dad.....he adopted me and only now that I'm an adult does he acknowledge me. He was sure I'd end up as a ditch digger as he put it. He would make me do manual labor and say this is my future. Cathy changed all that, instilled the very values today I don't have from her. I worked hard to change my anger management, post accident I think I was finally medicated to feel better about myself. I once had little self confidence and now more.... Now this person is doing like my childhood father did where I'm ignored, I'm hurt and have no way to vent except to the person I leaned on for so long, Cathy. Oh well, as they say, that is life......and without bad days, you don't appreciate the good. When I'm working, I don't think about the what if things like I do otherwise. Is there a way? A way out? A way to cope? How I feel is a yearn to not be pounded on, loved, cared for, and to be appreciated for what I' am and what I hold as core values. The one thing I think that bothers me is that over my life, I always held a success like the fact I have been married successfully for all these years. During that time, I did cherish her....I bought flowers for her, she really liked that. I can recant many things I've done for the good, not the few bad. bob Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 What started the fight this time? Majority of the women on this planet will say really mean things out of anger. Still there is no excuse for it. That is verbal abuse, along w/ emotional abuse. My ex was the same way before it all ended. As for her saying you called 6 times to apologize? Why did you call so many times? Just say it once & let it go, saying it 6 times to her, gets to a point where it doesn't mean as much or that it's being rubbed into her. As for you not changing, that's not true. You have been. It's pretty apparent she needs to work out her own issues. I would still write the letter after a cooling off period, but also state in the letter she is free to go if that is her true wish. As for the fighting part, when it starts up, just simply walk away. If she isn't going to fight fair (which I mean not calling names, etc..) then simply don't say anything back & tell her you are done with the conversation. Apparently there were issues before the disability as she mentioned. So it's not from just this past February. That's something you should ask her about, in a civil manner. If you re-read your post, you'll see that you didn't follow my advice. When she started talking about what you did in the past, you felt disappointed, so you rebuttaled saying 'What if the tables were turned, etc..' You were trying to spare yourself the pain she was inflicting on you, but by doing that she interpreted as 'Bob still doesn't understand what he did wrong and he never will'. That's why she got upset. When she was saying these things to you, you should have listened. Did you interrupt her, when she spoke? I bet you did. Let her get what she is saying, out.. Then start off by saying 'I understand' and then agree on certain issues. But then slowly talk about your side of things. Sounds like you both are stubborn. As long as she knows you understand how bad she was hurt on some of the past things, it will be easier for her to get over them. Otherwise you two haven't gotten any further in this than you were before. COMMUNICATION!! Both of you have to learn how to communicate effectively. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 "What started the fight this time? Majority of the women on this planet will say really mean things out of anger. Still there is no excuse for it. That is verbal abuse, along w/ emotional abuse. My ex was the same way before it all ended. " I feel the pain....But I do see there is life after all this....I just hate it "As for her saying you called 6 times to apologize? Why did you call so many times? Just say it once & let it go, saying it 6 times to her, gets to a point where it doesn't mean as much or that it's being rubbed into her. As for you not changing, that's not true. You have been. It's pretty apparent she needs to work out her own issues. I would still write the letter after a cooling off period, but also state in the letter she is free to go if that is her true wish. " Ya, I did because I realized my error after I called..I was just so so pissed off. I need to count to 100 b4 reacting and especially not calling her at work as it gives her time to burn. And it did get to the point of rubbing it in.... Today, I embarrassed her by saying it was an X movie....beet red. Same exact face as when I'd asked her that night before her trip if she were to go alone, I mean IDENTICAL beet red. I'll write...and I'll do it correctly without starting a fight. "As for the fighting part, when it starts up, just simply walk away. If she isn't going to fight fair (which I mean not calling names, etc..) then simply don't say anything back & tell her you are done with the conversation. Apparently there were issues before the disability as she mentioned. So it's not from just this past February. That's something you should ask her about, in a civil manner." Well, she has always picked her words and memories like a catalogue; kept a memory record like you can't imagine, heck I don't remember some...and by the way, after we used to fight we'd make up and as for making up, it usually was said by her that the best part of it all is making up....i.e., make up sex. She isn't an angel, I can recall on several occasions where she was really angry about something I did or didn't do. See, we had a good marriage, I'm telling you, we HAD a good marriage, we did everything together, we were best friends, she is just picking things which amount to handfulls over 17 years. So I could understand if we'd been together 2 years and had those problems but shoot, we were still kids when we married, I'm 39, she 38 now...do the math, 9 out of 10 things mentioned were when we were in our early to mid 20's. And I can also tell ya that our friendship was always strong, we made it through thick and thin together......from the loss of a child(fetus) to her being on her death bed ill....and I stood beside her, had loss of work, ruined credit, bankruptcy....why .... so I could be supportive, to make her better, to be there when she was depressed. And then 12 years later post illness what do I get? I get she shouldn't have to put up with me....she couldn't help but be sick of me. I feel descriminated against for something I can't.....NO strike that... for something I have constant trouble controlling...I CAN OR COULD control if she'd open the door to being normal as I knew normal Cathy. I'm trying hard to emphasize that point I said before; NOBODY, literally NOBODY who knew or knows us can believe it, 99% say NO WAY, NOT YOU TWO.....and I agree! And I might add, when we went to florida, the same people who saw us said she seemed DISTANT....and a different Cathy for sure. "If you re-read your post, you'll see that you didn't follow my advice. When she started talking about what you did in the past, you felt disappointed, so you rebuttaled saying 'What if the tables were turned, etc..' You were trying to spare yourself the pain she was inflicting on you, but by doing that she interpreted as 'Bob still doesn't understand what he did wrong and he never will'. That's why she got upset." Yep, I went back and read it....my doc told me the same thing but when wounded it is likened to be shot at and not returning fire. I know, no buts... I shouldn't have fed into it, it just is like shoving her out the door. But in my heart, I do feel like she would react so much different in a similar situation where I were the one wanting out due to feelings, she would have been the same way, I know this because she did do the paranoia thing thinking I wanted to live with or go to bed with someone a few times and I went out of my way as you may recall to NOT do that and to show her. She used to say this to me all the time..... ummm look at you, how did I get so lucky to get hold of you, you are so good looking. I'd say she too was beautiful and she would say no I'm not...bla bla What is different? I'm heavier now, trying to drop it off, it sucks.....she is really fit now, looks good and I wish I could....oh never mind. Put it this way, I MISS CATHY, I wish Cathy would come home... "When she was saying these things to you, you should have listened. Did you interrupt her, when she spoke? I bet you did." No, I didn't interrupt....I couldn't have anyway, she just kept on firing as I began to sob......she said the same thing I say here. She said one minute I want her out, the next....oh hunn don't leave. I'm just over the games she is playing, not in the sense that it is a game, moreover in the sense that she is WOMAN, HEAR ME ROAR...and I'm now the bastard she had the unfortunate experience with. Let her get what she is saying, out.. Then start off by saying 'I understand' and then agree on certain issues. But then slowly talk about your side of things. Sounds like you both are stubborn. As long as she knows you understand how bad she was hurt on some of the past things, it will be easier for her to get over them. Otherwise you two haven't gotten any further in this than you were before. COMMUNICATION!! Both of you have to learn how to communicate effectively." I'll try to do the I understand bit....I darn well should know by now better than to try to change her mind. Here I was so wrong and stubborn. It isn't necessarily that I'm stubborn so much as I want to point out and come to an ultimatum as it has been months and I'm tired of being walked on. She WILL move out, I'm certain of that, I have asked over and over and listened and the things I'm told are things I cannot ever go back in time and change. Over the months, I've learned that she NEVER has been happy with me even though she cares for me, she isn't in love with me, TRUST ME, this isn't true, now maybe it is true but not before. After the accident, and before, you can only find a handful, literally a handful of things I did wrong, and changed them when pointed out..... example was spanking, I never spanked after that. Perhaps I needed a doctor and meds before the accident, I'll give you that....but I'm NOT any of those things now. I don't push subjects, she starts 'em all.....true? NO, I did my own share of starting fireworks, I did my own crap to get myself into the pickle. Part of my strong will is back whereas for the years '97 to 04 I was heavily medicated, and by the way, I have a POUNDING, POUNDING headache each day, I can't turn my head to the left to see to move into a intersection from an off ramp and I have to twist, I still have pain so I do still carry the burden of chronic pain on top of it all. I stopped complaining but it is easy to see I'm in pain....and I'm sick of being sick. I'm sure she is sick of it all too.... I just believe in vows......particularly LOVE HONOR CHERISH.....in SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH. I held my end of 5 of the 6....I let the honor part list to one side and always loved, cherished. I just cannot take back what I did, she WON'T address anything. You know the feeling when you have had enough but you don't wanna face the inevitable? I think what about Xmas, what will I do.... can I continue to cope and work after she moves out, will I want to work, what about being on straight commission, all this....and staying focused at work has helped, I've vented the frustration on staying focused on keeping busy 70-80 hours per week working. But what happens then is I feel guilty towards my son who misses dad......oy.......that sucks. Link to post Share on other sites
jmargel Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Bob, Write the letter and then let things fall where they may. If she does leave & xmas comes around and she's not there.. Well then Xmas will come & go. You will still be here, life won't end as you know it. If she doesn't want to discuss the future with you then I wouldn't pursue that any further. However if she wants to move out, then she needs to do this as soon as possible so that you can move on with other parts of your life. It's hard to help a person when they don't want to be helped. It's also hard to mend a relationship when one doesn't want it mended back. You did what you can do, no one else could have done more. You are going through the 5 stages of grief, except that she is still there in front of you, living in the house. There is no possible way of getting through that unless she has moved out. So, it's upto her on what happens next. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Poconobob Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 I figured as much.....I figure it is harder when someone still lives in the house. Which by the way ISN'T going on the market so I can keep some "home life" for MY son. Note the emphasis on my son....she was quite nasty to him yesterday, he said all she did was yell at him....it is this crap that pisses me as she has no right to yell at him for things he didn't do. She told him he was just like his father because she asked him a question and his reply wasn't what she wanted to hear. Yesterday, she went looking at townhouses.....she states she can't find anything nice; I surmise she doesn't want to lower her standards, my son said she was looking at very expensive places but they were not nice places, just expensive. He is kinda angry she is looking in Wilkes-Barre because as he puts it, she will be out of the district and should I sell the house which I still am uncertain of, he'd be forced to change schools. See, I'm being pursued by my old boss in florida to move back and be in management; tempting, very tempting....because of the ease of the job and not having to beat the pavement for a living. It isn't as easy as it used to be working on the floor, I'm much better suited for mgt......and where I'm at now is nice but it is a wait for management whereas immediate if I moved. Plus moving to florida puts me back into my comfort zone, i.e., friends, relatives, and all the same coworkers I used to have. And should we divorce, I do have lady "friends"....just friends to lean on for support and nothing else. The lady friends are strictly friends, married to other friends who have been nothing but supportive. I'd think it would be 6 months or more before dating again.....that is if I could get a date, I wouldn't even know how to start or how to ask. I'm so out of it, it'd be pretty hard either way..... However, I'd probably stay up here so he can graduate college....or at least high school. My heart is in florida.....that I know. My yearning to be back "home" is stronger than ever.....but then again, I'm recanting once more on memories of tons of friends vs. here few friends and little support. I met a guy who has been through divorce many times up here at work and he kind of laughs saying it isn't easy but said also that from what I said, she either has a boyfriend or is really messed up in the head. We got deep into conversation because he was telling me about how his wife wanted out after many years and the day she moved out, she cleaned out the checking, and did have a boyfriend on the side who had been after her to leave her hubby.....it sounded so familiar to my situation it's scary. All he said was plan for the worst and hope for the best though he'd watch out and don't be all pissed off if there is a boyfriend because it isn't about me, it would be about her doing a sin she will have to carry on her shoulders. He said all this sounds fishy, not any one thing but the movie, the sneaky stuff is all something to wonder about BUT said don't let my emotions dictate my actions or else I'll be the one in jail or lose out on the divorce. But if I stay calm, the "courts" will come down on her hard for having a lover vs. me not having any other person. And the mere fact she leaves is good for me keeping most things and the house as well. To watch out for lies when we go to court to separate the items....because what she says now won't be what she does in court. He suggested that after she moves out to collect her keys, remote to the garage, etc so she can't come in and take things while I'm at work. Jeff, the ring is off again.....sheesh....I used to get all bent over the "symbol" of keeping a ring on, I believe a ring means unavailable, committed to vows until it is removed once divorces happen, not for separation, being pissed, or any other reason other than divorce. I this time did the same, removed my ring though it bothers me not having it on but in my sole, I'm married and that what I believe counts. I WON'T have to carry guilt of not at least trying to fix what is broken, won't have any reservations that I didn't do all I could....however, I do believe I did screw up by throwing the video rental in her face....for me, I consider that a weak moment of anger where my head wasn't screwed on properly. Once she moves out, it has been suggested I hire a private eye....what good would that do? Seems like an exercise in futility and perhaps find something I'll regret finding and be pissed to the degree I might do something stupid like pummel the s.o.b....for putting me through thiniking it is my actions which caused it when all along it wasn't about me but about her selfish desires.....but either way, once the "laundry" is aired I'd find out anyway and then I might just do it for self satisfaction. God help me, I have a vile temper......I was hurt badly by a girlfriend when I was young and I beat up a 24 year old man when I was 18....He called me a kid and my girlfriend apparently was a slut...then again we'd met in a bar and that was the kind of person she was. Since then, I had kept in contact with her and she broke up and wanted to get back together.....she was 21 and I was 18, she still lives in florida and never married. The ONLY accolade she has last time I saw her was she was VERY good looking blonde with blue eyes and tan....but I'd only seen her as I sold her a car WITH MY WIFE'S FULL KNOWLEDGE......and also my wife even was there the day she came in for her new vehicle. The girl is or atleast I knew her then was a rep for a big firm that does stock brokering at night for overseas transactions. Did I ever mention with my wife how we met? It was one of those quickie meetings, she was dating my best friend and they broke up, we in turn had hit it off and began dating and decided to marry only two weeks after meeting, married 2 months after meeting and obviously have made it 17 years. My best friend and I have not spoken since....he was in love with her. She blew him off after meeting me.....I made NO ADVANCES nor flurted with her before they broke up, in fact it was a trip to visit him when he said they broke up that I saw her teaching aerobic class and I was actually asked out by her.....and we had a long distance relationship until I finished school. My friend said she was a slut....I keep remembering my last conversation when I told him I was dating her off and on....he warned me, she was loose and dated other guys while dating him and she "has no morals"......but NEVER did she display that and I mean never....or else I'm the dummy. Do leopards change their stripes? IMO yes... BTW, our first date, she attacked me with sex in a pool and was very forward..... I'll write your letter suggested, at least I'll know I said my piece...... My letter; Dear Cathleen, I wanted to express my understanding of how you feel, we both made mistakes but I'm understanding of the fact you need space to breathe. I won't stand in the way of your desire to see what it is like to live apart. I just want you to know that I've appreciated and loved you for the past 17 years and it is hard to go from a loving husband to being on drugs and screwing up what you believe to be a marriage that can't be fixed. Though I wish I could express my feelings better in person, it ends up in your telling me I don't understand. Perhaps in time, I will but for now I don't as I cannot fathom life without you. You are everything to me, not just a person I live with but a person I never planned on being separated from and the person I thought I'd grow old with. It has been a pleasure being your husband and father to our son, I cannot think of the future as it isn't there right now.....However, I have trouble expressing my feelings as they are just that feelings locked inside where I get a lump in my throat just thinking about the inevitable. I must give you the space you desire, I must face facts that things might not work out, I listened and have absorbed your angst and listened and saw your frustration at the fact I am not taking this the way you want. In other words, I've not exactly taken things likely as from my side, I never could leave you if something "changed" in our lives, I married for better or for worse....and when you were sick, I only thought of nothing but helping you. Being that I don't believe in breaking up, it makes it all the harder for me to understand, it isn't that I don't listen, but rather my desire to be selfish in so far as I carry the guilt of ruining a relationship with the best lady on the face of the earth. I can't imagine starting over and dating others, being with another woman....therefore, I want to allow you to do what you feel is best with the understanding I'll be here IF you want to seek counseling while separated to try to overcome our problems. I believe our problems are because we both are stubborn and both hurt because we want to disconnect but your hurt has me hurt and I do things to get back at you when I should just accept it and allow for supportive actions instead of continueing to cause further rifts in the once good relationship. This relationship had its good and bad times as all couples experience, it is only time which can allow for any healing, it is only your desire to be alone for a time to see if you enjoy freedom moreso than a caring husband who only wants to know where his wife is so he isn't worried. I wonder, not for the fact you are cheating, I wonder where you are as I was codependant, I was apparently showing a controlling attitude which truly was just me worried when you weren't home on time, when you went out if you'd be okay, and I played the "parent" a bit too much. I always have thought we'd watch out for each other and protect each other as I have done in the past. In the past, you've called me over when threatened by someone, i.e., the time the bum was in our back yard in florida and you called on me to get him away from you and I chased, caught and had him arrested. It is that protection I offer to you whether living together or apart, should you need ANYTHING, I'm here. I'm not here to hold your hand but rather to be a friend at this poin, a close friend who you can always count on, even if that comes a year from now. I understand my actions seem to dictate my desires.....but truly, I in my heart of hearts love you, I care for you, I worry about you, and frankly I'm scared that I've done irreperable damage. As you put it the leg is gone and cannot grow back......I say it can mend but you at this point don't want to put forth the effort as you say you don't want to fix it, you want to leave it broken, you want in essence to split up. Perhaps for years you recall all the bad times and remind the incidents; think, how many good times we had, remember going out with me on dates? Remember how close we were as friends and lovers......remember how we'd hang out with friends and go to things together as a couple. I believe that we should have had space apart doing individual things with friends, going out, relating to our individual friends. For that, I should say I'm sorry... I could only recall a couple times you went out without me, and as for me, none....sorry for that, we had too much of each other. And now, up here in Pa., we don't or didn't go out as a couple, we didn't interact with friends like we should have, and I got on drugs which I won't go there on my poor me syndrone where even with you saying i needed to seek counseling, I couldn't find a doctor after xmas......my meds were totally screwed up but in fact and THE FACTS are it was me, not you who displayed anger, who was depressed, and actually jealous of your happiness with work and finding freedom in your work to realize that we were too close, that our relationship was no longer fueled by love but moreso based on just the rings on our fingers. That truly isn't marriage, I understand that now, I've changed most of my list of things to change for US.....Ya, I didn't change for myself as I stated I was doing, I wanted to show you I could relax, allow you to be your own person, and to give you the accolades. It must have sucked having to not be able to even tell your husband you had to take a trip with your boss. It must suck to have the inner feeling that I'm not worthy of being your husband.....for that, I must understand and allow you to be yourself. There is nobody, I repleat nobody who could love you....thin, fat, sick, healthy like me. I love everything about you, I miss you and it is all that missing, lack of love, lack of emotion which has been so hard to disconnect. I just have trouble disconnecting because the hurt I feel is felt because I feel I screwed up and I am being overbearing to try to either find a reason, a logical reason other than the fact it could be me. I searched thinking it must be someone else, I got angry at the very thought someone was influencing my wife. You were mine, you can be mindful in the respect that given another chance in the distant future that I'll adhere to a more open relationship to trust, to love, to allow for full independance......and stop the father role I took on. Do you know how hard it is not to want to just grab you and hold you? It is hard seeing your pretty face all scrunched up.....it is hard to not be able to console you as I'm the problem....and I desire different things that I can't have and I see you all pretty and want you so badly. I want not your body but your sole.....sure I always want your body, that has always been true....but I now realize the err in my ways, and I took this job to show you further my desire to change. I'll stumble, I'll faulter because I keep reverting back on emotion not love.....Love is understanding, allowing one to allow the other to have feelings and to allow those feelings to be said and heard and understood. Love equates to marriage as two people who desire similar things and work daily to be friends, to be able to lean on each other for moral support, and to simply put be a couple.......which we aren't, we are at best friends, that is all I ask for at this point. I want the games to stop......I don't want to hurt you by getting back at you when you say the things I already know are my faults. The frustrating part of it all is it is history which I can't go back and change, I'm sorry I couldn't be counted on to understand you have to go with your boss, that you don't even feel comfortable telling me such things, that you have to hide, be embarrassed at my apparent actions to find something that isn't there. For me, it has been a tough road to let go, I just cannot let go as I'm willing to forgive and forget the things you did......but I do understand that you feel differently at this point and don't want to fix or discuss, or whatever is bothering you and until we do agree to discuss and find a way to mend or start a new relationship as if we both just met, it won't work. I'd like to think in the not so distant future we could date as friends, see how things go, and ME LISTEN more effectively to come to an understanding you have a career, you have responsibility, but could forgive. To forgive is not to forget about it all and granting me the honor of dating you isn't about sex, it is about listening, being best friends again, for you to be able to tell me anything without my taking it as a sign of something ..... or anything other than communication. Remember, don't forget the good times, I understand how you feel now but also remember there is nobody on this earth who cherishes you the way I do. Again, I know you, I love you, I want you, and I'll always think fondly of the honor of your marrying me. I will go back to square one, inspect what I expect of you and not insanely wish for something that is the same thing we experienced. I want to give you the knowledge that I trust, admire, and care.....I know you don't think that right now and that I'm just doing things to keep you but the changes I've done are for me first and foremost, but working, that is for you, that is to ultimately show you I can once again have a career and not be a fixture in your life. Cathleen, I love you.....I'll let you go....if you ever want to come back, I'll forget the past, not obsess nor mention the past and dwell on being the ideal husband you thought you met years ago. Every single day, I'll work on this forever......to become a better, happier person you knew. I won't go back, you'll see that in my actions.....but it will take on your part the trust in me that I did change, otherwise it is all futile no matter what. Because if you look deep enough, you'll find my faults, same goes for me, if I look hard enough, I'll find faults.......it is living with the faults of being human that allow for a couple to be just that, a couple. I don't want anything in life but to have the ability to love, honor, cherish you......and that emphasizes HONOR---trust---forgiveness---understanding. Your friend and forever yours for the taking, bob Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts