"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[AHardDaysNight]

DepressedInDenver, you put into words exactly what I was getting at. Why doesn't the OP chase guys that actually want relationships?

 

Because they're not as sexually desirable.

 

That's pretty much the flux of it. Umm, let's think about this a minute. What do all sexually desirable men have in common?

 

They can get sex with any woman they want, as much as they want.

 

So it all comes down to, do you want to chase these bad boy/players/good looking guys, and hope that they'll beat off the hordes of good looking women to choose you? Or would you settle for someone who isn't all together that pretty, or socially confident, but is a good hearted person underneath it all?

[verhrzn]

Do any of you guys READ my threads?? My God, I am SO sick of hearing that the reason my FWBs don't want relationships is because they're "players" "good looking guys" "can get sex anywhere they want."

 

Newsflash: I go for NERDS. I GO for socially awkward. My FWB is 30... he's had two girlfriends, both lasting less than six months. He's been sexually active since he was 19, and has had 9 partners. So let's do the math- that's less than a 1 girl a year, and 3 out of the 6 have been drunken nerd convention hook-ups. Yeah, he's not an inexperienced virgin, but he's also not the Casanova you guys imagine.

 

I don't LIKE hot guys. I don't bother with them, I don't want them. I want short, I want slightly pudgy, I want geeky/nerdy. And yet THESE are the guys who say they "aren't sure what they want."

 

So just stop it, stop trying to squeeze my square-peg situation and my experiences into the round-hole of "It's cause she goes for the unattainable." I don't know WHERE guys who want relationships are, but they're NOT around me, and I've looked everywhere.

 

And I thought that said this, but apparently not... I DID take sex off the table. I told him I wasn't comfortable with it anymore. And he was totally fine with it.

 

But isn't that supposed to be the way it is?

 

Women are the gatekeepers. If a certain key doesn't have what she wants, she tells him to move on.

Why would making a guy wait for sex make you friendzone him? I know you gave reasons, but they're not that clear to me.

Why would you have to convince yourself that you're not attracted to him?

How long does it take you decide that it's not going to work out with a guy. Barring no glaring red flags are present.

 

No, I don't think that's the way it should be. I think people should have sex because they want to have sex. I don't want to be a gate keeper, I don't want to make a guy "work for it." Talk about the path to sexual dysfunction... where do all the jokes about married women never giving their guys BJs, and married guys never getting laid comes from? It comes from this attitude... that women view sex as something to get them what they want, not something for them to want in and of itself.

 

Making a guy waits friendzones him because I lose attraction to him. I'm a very sexual person-I feel attraction keenly. If I have to suppress it, in order to "keep to the rules" and avoid temptation to jump him too soon, eventually I'm going to suppress it into nothing. It becomes too psychologically challenging to hang around with a guy you're really attracted to and not do anything about.. so my brain decides to either do something about it, or get rid of the attraction.

 

It takes me a long time to decide if it's gonna "work" with a guy... I don't automatically assume attraction = compatibility. But as far as deciding how soon to friend-zone a guy, if we haven't had some kind of physical intimacy (kissing onwards, hugs are not physically intimate to me) by a 2nd or 3rd private encounter (as in, it's just me and him hanging out), that's when the chemistry goes out the window.

[Woggle]

Nerds in their late 20s and early 30s can be some of the biggest players ever. Its especially true if they are successful because now they have women looking at them to settle down with and they are taking full advantage of this newfound power that they didn't have in their younger days.

[verhrzn]

Nerds in their late 20s and early 30s can be some of the biggest players ever. Its especially true if they are successful because now they have women looking at them to settle down with and they are taking full advantage of this newfound power that they didn't have in their younger days.

 

Ugh, I freaking give up. There's no pleasing you guys, is there? You all automatically assume I'm going for the tall, good looking, popular rich guys... And when I say I go for the short, average attractive, socially awkward poor guys, you STILL say they're players.

 

So who the frick is left that I'm allowed to like without being accused of picking the wrong guys?

[aj22one]

Do any of you guys READ my threads?? My God, I am SO sick of hearing that the reason my FWBs don't want relationships is because they're "players" "good looking guys" "can get sex anywhere they want."

 

Newsflash: I go for NERDS. I GO for socially awkward. My FWB is 30... he's had two girlfriends, both lasting less than six months. He's been sexually active since he was 19, and has had 9 partners. So let's do the math- that's less than a 1 girl a year, and 3 out of the 6 have been drunken nerd convention hook-ups. Yeah, he's not an inexperienced virgin, but he's also not the Casanova you guys imagine.

 

I don't LIKE hot guys. I don't bother with them, I don't want them. I want short, I want slightly pudgy, I want geeky/nerdy. And yet THESE are the guys who say they "aren't sure what they want."

 

So just stop it, stop trying to squeeze my square-peg situation and my experiences into the round-hole of "It's cause she goes for the unattainable." I don't know WHERE guys who want relationships are, but they're NOT around me, and I've looked everywhere.

 

I'm not 100% familiar with all of your threads, but are you limiting yourself to ONLY a certain type of nerd (the anime/comic book sci-fi kind)? Perhaps you should open yourself up to more "well rounded" guys. Maybe the kind that like nerd stuff and other stuff too.

 

I think people were saying you were trying to get the unobtainable guys because they didn't like your comments in other threads about how hard you have it compared to some of these completely inexperienced guys. Believe it or not your experiences are actually more in the norm these days: dating has just become harder than it used to be. The guys who have never even kissed a girl have it WAY harder than most. Chin up though, if you keep your wits about you I'm sure you'll do fine.

[Woggle]

Ugh, I freaking give up. There's no pleasing you guys, is there? You all automatically assume I'm going for the tall, good looking, popular rich guys... And when I say I go for the short, average attractive, socially awkward poor guys, you STILL say they're players.

 

So who the frick is left that I'm allowed to like without being accused of picking the wrong guys?

 

Try to find that rare diamond just like men have to do. It's hard to find somebody at your age that isn't completely jaded. The tall and good looking guys have options and they know it and the average guys hate women because of years of rejection.

[verhrzn]

I'm not 100% familiar with all of your threads, but are you limiting yourself to ONLY a certain type of nerd (the anime/comic book sci-fi kind)? Perhaps you should open yourself up to more "well rounded" guys. Maybe the kind that like nerd stuff and other stuff too.

 

I think people were saying you were trying to get the unobtainable guys because they didn't like your comments in other threads about how hard you have it compared to some of these completely inexperienced guys. Believe it or not your experiences are actually more in the norm these days: dating has just become harder than it used to be. The guys who have never even kissed a girl have it WAY harder than most. Chin up though, if you keep your wits about you I'm sure you'll do fine.

 

No I'm not limiting myself, I'm fairly well rounded myself. I've even tried engineers and math nerds, something I have NO interest in, because they're usually touted as the "normal" nerds.

 

I don't have it hard compared to completely inexperienced guys, but I get extremely pissed off at this assertion that women (of which I am one) have it SO easy, that women never have dating hardships or difficulties except those they create themselves (the irony.)

[omkara]

Trust me most men don't know what they want and do everything off of a comfort level...Whatever is most comfortable to them is the way that they will choose to go.

 

That's what everybody does, not just men.

[aj22one]

No I'm not limiting myself, I'm fairly well rounded myself. I've even tried engineers and math nerds, something I have NO interest in, because they're usually touted as the "normal" nerds.

 

What I mean is maybe guys who like the sci-fi or comic stuff but also like things like sports or other more "mainstream" interests. Just like we suggest guys trying a coed sport or other activity, maybe try the same? You might like it or hate it, but it's an experience and would widen the net so to speak.

 

I don't have it hard compared to completely inexperienced guys, but I get extremely pissed off at this assertion that women (of which I am one) have it SO easy, that women never have dating hardships or difficulties except those they create themselves (the irony.)

 

I think both men and women suffer from having high expectations that were instilled in us by well meaning parents or other adults. Most guys were told that getting girls "just happens" when in fact that's not true. Women were told certain things about men that I'm sure are also not true. In both cases nobody thought dating and relationships would require any real hard work. It's a very embittering experience when you find out that work is in fact required and the first instinct is to always assume that it's the other gender that makes things so hard.

[verhrzn]

What I mean is maybe guys who like the sci-fi or comic stuff but also like things like sports or other more "mainstream" interests. Just like we suggest guys trying a coed sport or other activity, maybe try the same? You might like it or hate it, but it's an experience and would widen the net so to speak.

 

The thing is... I don't get along with guys who like sports, and frankly, I'm not really the type sports-liking-guys want. I'm that girl who sits there during the Super Bowl and says," What just happened? What does that hand signal mean? What the hell is first and ten?" It's probably limiting my range of potential boyfriends, but "masculine" men who like sports, or fishing, or camping just... leave me cold.

 

My company has a softball team that I often go out and support, and... I don't know what it is, but a guy being athletic is actually a turn-off. Maybe it's the competitive, masculine part of me. I can't play most sports, and it really bothers me when guys best me at them, especially because they usually do it in a "Aww look at the cute little girl thinking she can keep up with the boys" way.

[somedude81]

Newsflash: I go for NERDS. I GO for socially awkward.

 

I don't LIKE hot guys. I don't bother with them, I don't want them. I want short, I want slightly pudgy, I want geeky/nerdy.

Wow, that is the first time I've ever heard a woman describe my type as something that they actually want.

 

Are you for real or just some AI construct on the internet to make nerds 'round the world feel that women can like them?

 

"aren't sure what they want."

No, they know exactly what they want. But as somebody already said, they are not going to tell you what you want because they know women won't go along with it. So they tell a half lie. They think as long as they are lying to you about wanting a relationship, they are OK.

And I thought that said this, but apparently not... I DID take sex off the table. I told him I wasn't comfortable with it anymore. And he was totally fine with it.

Cool, I hope it works out for you guys.

 

BTW, has he said why he doesn't want a relationship?

 

 

No, I don't think that's the way it should be. I think people should have sex because they want to have sex. I don't want to be a gate keeper, I don't want to make a guy "work for it." Talk about the path to sexual dysfunction... where do all the jokes about married women never giving their guys BJs, and married guys never getting laid comes from? It comes from this attitude... that women view sex as something to get them what they want, not something for them to want in and of itself.

In the beginning, a man should work for it. The number one thing a man wants from any woman is sex. That is what drives us. For some men, they feel unfilled when a woman makes it too easy.

 

There is a reason men don't shoot bucks that are in pens.

 

Now once a man is actually in a relationship he should not have to work as hard for it because he already has his prize. But the problem with married men not getting laid any more is that some women think that they no longer have to "put out" because they got the guy. Odds are those women never wanted sex.

 

Making a guy waits friendzones him because I lose attraction to him. I'm a very sexual person-I feel attraction keenly. If I have to suppress it, in order to "keep to the rules" and avoid temptation to jump him too soon, eventually I'm going to suppress it into nothing. It becomes too psychologically challenging to hang around with a guy you're really attracted to and not do anything about.. so my brain decides to either do something about it, or get rid of the attraction.

That is very interesting.

 

Almost like a safety mechanism. Too much pressure, either use it or let it all go.

It takes me a long time to decide if it's gonna "work" with a guy... I don't automatically assume attraction = compatibility. But as far as deciding how soon to friend-zone a guy, if we haven't had some kind of physical intimacy (kissing onwards, hugs are not physically intimate to me) by a 2nd or 3rd private encounter (as in, it's just me and him hanging out), that's when the chemistry goes out the window.

The second or third encounter seems pretty soon to friendzone a guy if he hasn't made a move. Especially how you said you like socially awkward guys. I can see them taking longer as they aren't as comfortable with women. I'm wondering how many guys you've actually friendzoned.

 

I get extremely pissed off at this assertion that women (of which I am one) have it SO easy, that women never have dating hardships or difficulties except those they create themselves (the irony.)

That is because you are a very rare case among women. And even then, you don't have it nearly as bad as the men who can't get anything do.

 

As bad as you think your relationship history is, the 30 year old male virgins wish they had it half as good as you do.

[aj22one]

The thing is... I don't get along with guys who like sports, and frankly, I'm not really the type sports-liking-guys want. I'm that girl who sits there during the Super Bowl and says," What just happened? What does that hand signal mean? What the hell is first and ten?" It's probably limiting my range of potential boyfriends, but "masculine" men who like sports, or fishing, or camping just... leave me cold.

 

My company has a softball team that I often go out and support, and... I don't know what it is, but a guy being athletic is actually a turn-off. Maybe it's the competitive, masculine part of me. I can't play most sports, and it really bothers me when guys best me at them, especially because they usually do it in a "Aww look at the cute little girl thinking she can keep up with the boys" way.

 

Well again, I'm not necessarily saying a guy who takes sports 100% serious, like when his team loses it puts him in a foul mood for the rest of the week. But someone who might have a more than casual but less than fanatic approach to them. And again it doesn't have to be sports either, I just used them as an example of what goes for "mainstream" here in the US.

 

You mentioned earlier that you like guys a little pudgy. Just because a guy plays sports or likes sports doesn't mean he's going to be athletic and toned. Ever heard of Charles Barkley? His nicknames included: "the wide load from Leeds", "the Ton of Fun", and "the Round Mound of Rebound". He didn't get those for nothing.

 

Again, you have to look for the guys that interest you. If you don't like guys who are into sports that's cool. I'm just suggesting you widen the net to include some variety (in whatever way that works for you). There's a lot of guys out there who are into a lot of things, things that might on the surface seem contradictory. A guy on my flag football team is an Art History professor who also likes to hunt and fish. You'd never guess that the same guy who loves to appreciate fine art, also likes playing football and hunting. Life is strange sometimes and people can be even stranger.

[Easyguy14]

Not men she meets, men she is interested in.

 

Women refuse to admit this, but their all chasing after a small percentage of the male population. The rich, popular, "HOT" guys.

 

These guys can date multiple women at once because they have an endless supply of options & just don't need a relationship.

 

Women who can't get these guys ignore the other guys around her and say "why can't I meet a decent guy"

 

Guess what? I know women from highschool 20yrs ago still single saying the same thing except their now looking at the guys they jerked around & played with & seeing how they built themselves up, married a beautiful woman, got beautiful children & a big house & are now regretting it.

 

They say things like "we used to hang out as friends then he fell off the face of the earth when he got a GF" No, what really happened is she friendzoned him because he wasn't one of the "hot" / jerk type of guys she always chased after & he stopped wasting his time & energy on her.

 

sorry, but that's how it is. I noticed every woman I dated were complete flakes & game players. I assumed all women my age are like this. Their not, just the majority of one's in the places I meet them.

I lowered my expectations when approached by a woman at a bar or concert & i've stopped being surprised or disappointed when she turns out to be low quality.

 

I don't think i've met a low quality woman at a private social function. when I say private I mean private party, ball, charity event ect that was not open to the public.

 

I really like this post. it expresses the truth without being harsh and angry or whatever. women in bars and lounges aren't much quality for the most part. they're just there for ego boosts mostly. some because of alcoholism and others to pick up a quick low quality guy like themselves. seems like it that the better females are in social events or something more private and laidback

[verhrzn]

BTW, has he said why he doesn't want a relationship?

 

He says it's been so long since he's tried one (about five years) he doesn't remember or know how it's supposed to go, and the last one ended very ugly. He's super sensitive to rejection and criticism... in his world, an FWB is a less risky way to lose someone, because in his experience, he hasn't lost a single person doing it (it's true, he's remained at least friendly with all his former hook-ups) but dating gone wrong means the person leaves him forever.

 

In the beginning, a man should work for it. The number one thing a man wants from any woman is sex. That is what drives us. For some men, they feel unfilled when a woman makes it too easy.

 

Well you'll have to excuse me for not wanting to play into that attitude. It's hilarious that you think women should approach men, yet women shouldn't give up sex too soon because it "makes it too easy for him." It's either one or the other... either guys need to hunt and women need to make it hard to catch her (hurray, games!) or men need to get the idiot assertion out of their head that a woman wanting to have sex with you early on is somehow a sign of her being a slut, or too easy.

 

That is very interesting.

 

Almost like a safety mechanism. Too much pressure, either use it or let it all go.

The second or third encounter seems pretty soon to friendzone a guy if he hasn't made a move. Especially how you said you like socially awkward guys. I can see them taking longer as they aren't as comfortable with women. I'm wondering how many guys you've actually friendzoned.

 

It is kind of a defense mechanism. It's a way for me to deal with rejection. I've gotten rejected a LOT by guys, so being able to get rid of my attraction quickly is a boon. I guess "friendzoned" isn't quite the right word, because none of my male friends have wanted to date me. If a guy hasn't made a move by the 2nd or 3rd encounter, I just drop him. There's been two guys over the summer that fit this, and I just pulled the Disappear card.

 

That is because you are a very rare case among women. And even then, you don't have it nearly as bad as the men who can't get anything do.

 

As bad as you think your relationship history is, the 30 year old male virgins wish they had it half as good as you do.

 

You don't know that I'm a rare case. Maybe I'm just very outspoken about it. I've had a lot of women that say they relate to my experiences, but never admit it, because admitting guys don't find you attractive is like admitting you're a failure of a woman.

 

Guys say they'd love to switch with me, until they're actually in my place. Grass is always greener.

[ThsAmericanLife]

This is naturally yet another by product of the hookup culture. Yes, men know what they want. And that is: sex with various women. Naturally, it goes under the guise of "I don't know" because if they told you what the deal was, then that decreases their odds of getting sex.

 

So we shouldn't be surprises as we now take longer to get married, that it also takes longer to get into a relationship as well. The two go hand in hand directly. There's also the deal with FWB. While I see how this can definitely be of benefit, there is something missing here. If someone is devoting all their sexual energy into a fwb that won't go anywhere, why not devote it to finding an interesting prospect?

 

I think this needs to be considered as well. Sexual energy is a big player. And if you're spending it on an eventual dead end, then what do you have left when you find someone interesting? Sexual energy makes you act different, behave different.

 

But either way, there won't be a quick fix unless a lot of cultural changes are made. It's just at a point where finding sex is infinitely easier than finding a relationship. While it is a bit unfortunate, it simply may just be signs of the times in which love is taking a back burner to sex. Also the costs of being in a relationship it seems are not worth the rewards, especially when you can get probably the biggest component of a relationship (sex) without being in one.

 

yep. That about sums it up.

 

... to the OP... making yourself available to someone who is actively seeking a relationship, and can decide relatively quickly that might be you... doesn't have to make you feel like a loser.

[somedude81]

If a guy hasn't made a move by the 2nd or 3rd encounter, I just drop him. There's been two guys over the summer that fit this, and I just pulled the Disappear card.

Baka! (Sorry, I've been watching a lot of Soul Eater)

 

You are shooting yourself in the foot by doing that. You say you like awkward guys but don't give them a chance to warm up to you. Also the guys who would want a relationship aren't going to try to sleep with you right away.

 

I think you've turned away many men would have wanted a relationship with you but they moved too slow for you.

 

So you weeded them all out and left only the guys who just want sex.

 

I just wanted to make that point before I have lunch. I'll address the rest later.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Verhrzn - articulate, well thought out post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

somedude81:

Women are the gatekeepers. If a certain key doesn't have what she wants, she tells him to move on. I think that modern women are making it too easy for some men.

 

Yes, modern women sometimes do make it too easy for some men. Women have desire just like men do and sometimes that desire gets them in a situation that might feel good in the short term but isn’t positive in the long term. That is only half of the problem however. The other half is how men treat women. And sometimes men manipulate, avoid and are both directly and indirectly dishonest. They will also use women very easily. This is the other have of the problem.

 

If we want to be treated with integrity, then we have to treat others with integrity. And too many men do not treat women with integrity. And vice versa. But to say that women are the gatekeepers allows you (and men in general) to be relationally lazy and without any accountability. Which is ironic because most men I know want a deep respect for who they are and how they act. Most men, while wanting to be equals, also want to bring that masculine energy to the relationship. So by asking women to be their moral gate keepers, which is in reality what you are doing because you seem to think men shouldn't have to exercise self control, they in turn aren’t garnering the respect a woman needs to see a man as a good partner. Then men are scratching their heads why women don’t have respect for them. Because men that demand women to be the gatekeepers are really justifying a cultural attitude of passivity and laziness and lack of integrity in men.

 

Women are not here to make your choices for you. Just because you are a man doesn't give you an excuse to treat women like sexual toys there for your use. Just because you get horny isn't justifyable enough alone on why you seek sex in people that have emotions and feelings.

 

Yes, women need to not engage in sex so fast.

Yes, men need to not engage in sex so fast either and put boundries on themselves in ways they want to see in return.

 

Women are not your personal moral gatekeepers. As a man, you have the ability to make choices on how you behave. Women respect good, moral men. If your morality or goodness is only as good as the woman you're involved with, that doesn't say much about the kind of man you are.

[NeoGen85]

The reality is society has changed so much. It's today's idea of marriage that now affects the idea of dating in western society. Sex has change the way we date as well.

 

It's been awhile for me since I met a woman who has taken my breath away without giving me a "rise" first(or romance had no sexual implications). I'm pretty sure some of you ladies feel the same way too about us men.

 

I am one of those geeks(now 26) who thought he had trouble getting women before. I would say my independent lifestyle has helped change my attitude. I know exactly what I want; to be married and happy like my parents. But I can't see myself being in a long term relationship with a lot of the women I meet. That might sound horrible, but it is true.

[Nexus One]

If you yourself want a relationship, but get into an FWB in the hopes that he starts growing feelings for you, then you're letting yourself be used. It's not necessarily his fault, because he's just keeping his end of the bargain. But it's you who is doing it to yourself.

 

If you really want a relationship then everything in your thinking and doing should be focused on that. Going into an FWB does not demonstrate that.

 

Know that guys are able to separate sex and love fairly well. We can come at least two times a day without flinching due to the constant build-up of sperm.

Women are born with all the eggs they'll ever have. So biologically women tend to be more selective about the men they sleep with. Women also tend to grow feelings for a man after sleeping with him. While the latter can happen to men too, I think it doesn't happen a much as it happens to women.

 

And if you know that, yet you get yourself into things like FWB's, then you're wasting your time and you need a change of strategy. It's not getting you what you want.

 

Like MrNate said, men know fairly well what they want. Many guys just want to f*ck lots of p*ssy. For a man to want a relationship he should have grown a consciousness for it, he should be in that state. I know, because I myself am a man. A man that is not in the mental state that opens himself up to a relationship is nearly always a lost cause in the sense that he doesn't want a relationship.

 

Another aspect is the cold hard truth of it. As man you see many girls/women everyday. From a distance many can be considered "f*ckable" so to say, but very few are considered relationship material. They're only considered relationship material when the guy starts crushing on her.

 

And because I as a guy know this and as I suspect women aren't that different from men I have a rule for myself. And that rule is that she should have a crush on me, otherwise no game. And vice versa of course. In my opinion a crush is the best basis for a relationship. A crush is nature's way to pave the way for a relationship.

 

When it comes to FWB's, there are often no crushes involved. Well sometimes maybe, but it often tends to come from one side. A broken heart is the only result.

 

FWB's can only work if both sides are able to uphold their end of the bargain. And that can be hard, because we're human. We feel.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Nexus One

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Nexus how old are you?

[madjac74]

Women are the gatekeepers.

 

Just saying "gatekeeper" reduces your chance of having sex by like 300%

[Nexus One]

Nexus how old are you?

 

I'm 29. Why do you want to know?

[NeoGen85]

Just saying "gatekeeper" reduces your chance of having sex by like 300%

 

I am the keymaster. Are you the gatekeeper? xD

[madjac74]

I am the keymaster. Are you the gatekeeper? xD

 

You just reduced it by 500% by ****ing quoting Ghostbusters! Haha

[NeoGen85]

You just reduced it by 500% by ****ing quoting Ghostbusters! Haha

 

Damn! I guess I need a new pick up line.