"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[Titania22]

 

A guy can have a really strong desire to have sex with you, but be too afraid to try and kiss you on the second date. Some guys need to be encouraged that they are on the right track.

 

 

And that's why I would make the moves myself. I prefer it that way anyway.

[rafallus]

Women are going to get burned by men if they believe that. You can all believe what you want. I too thought the 50% cheating statistic was exaggerated, until I started talking about it to guys and I was shocked the percentage pretty much reflected reality if not worse. We're not talking about players here, this is across all layers of society. 50% of all men.

 

I'd be the first one to defend men if the truth of the matter was different, but it isn't.

That doesn't match people I know. Guys I know can be divided into groups:

 

1. People who got married to their pretty much highschool sweethearts. Either after college or as early as 18-20.

2. People who got married to person they met at club in college, moved in and got engaged after several months.

3. People still single/casual.

 

Out of 3, I can come up with two guys that you could classify as players. And in fact, one of them has sort of on/off girlfriend who pretty much orders him around - not very player like at all.

 

For females, ratios are about equal.

[Woggle]

I also think that some women who go for the jerks also are somewhat misandrist themselves. They don't believe an honest and committed man is for real so they figure go with the devil they know. They always see an ulterior motive even though a lot of men are sincere.

[SillyS]

We as women give ourselves so much credit and sometimes are overconfident in our abilities as well. We meet tons of men that flat out tell us that this situation will not work, and still we get involved because on some level we are shown that men will adapt themselves for the right person. So we just go out there with the mentality that red flags will occur, but that we might be just special and amazing enough to make that difference for a man out there.

 

I see it everyday. I have friends that date men that don't want to commit to them, others that are with men that have never been in relationships and are taking off the training wheels on my friends and hurting them a bunch on the way. And most date men that are simply so jaded, that they are just waiting to see harmful traits in these women so they can run as fast as possible from them. And we do all of these things why? Because maybe some guy will care enough to make it work with us permanently. It's just so irrational!

 

I think if you show me that you don't want the same things as me, then I'll take your word for it. I can't change your mind or change the person you are at this moment, but I can sure as hell prevent myself from thinking you are the one I need in my life. If you want to be with me, then show me. But otherwise, I'll protect myself, thanks though.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Nexus One: Then you completely misinterpreted my post. I've been writing about wanting a meaningful relationship on this forum for over six months now, but you judge me on the basis of this one post.

 

Yes, I don't know much about your other posts but your ability to want a relationship for yourself has nothing to do with the stereotypes you promoted in men. It's just as anti-man as anything a woman could say. And this is something I see common among men who limit their own gender by promoting the worst qualities and then wonder why women don't have much respect for men. I am not denying there are men that want to run around and sleep with women. But I don't think it's most. Even if 50% of men are cheating, 50% of men aren't cheating.

 

There is this huge cultural idea about men that is hugely negative for both men and women. The idea that men are only dogs. That they aren't any better then their hormones. This mentality allows for women to wallow in their bitterness toward men, self supporting their own personal negative experiences, instead of working to understand men. And it allows men to wallow around in stereotyped self traits that don't request men be any better then dogs. SO if a man messes up or portrays negative behavior, other men can say "hey that's just the way men are." No, that isn't how men are. That's how men are when they don't want to be anything more then their worst traits. But men are so much more then what you tout they are.

 

I think about all the men I know in my life. My dad, my uncles, my brother, my grandfather, my next door neighbor and his sons, my own friends and my friend's husbands and boyfriends...and the list goes on. And most of them are good family men that take care of their families and work hard to provide for them. They treat women well.

 

I think many men are just as interested in relationships. But I don't think men know much about themselves inside so it's hard for them to even relate to women to begin with. Men don't spend time exploring their feelings or looking introspectively at themselves. Because it's not considered "masculine". However, If men and women work to change that idea and let the idea of masculinity change, which has alread happened to some degree, then men and women will have better relationships where they don't spend all their time looking to self gratify themselves. And I see the ways this has changed reflected in how much more hands-on fathers are today then they might have been 30 years ago. That's not to say that the fathers of 30 years ago where bad fathers, they did what they did because they thought it best. But today you see men taking their kids to practice or cooking dinner.

 

 

 

I'm one of two guys I know that actually wants a relationship. I'm also one of three guys I know that doesn't cheat and has never cheated.

 

Perhaps you need to surround yourself with better men.

 

You say my post implied as if I'm proud of f*cking around randomly with women. Bullsh*t. I feel for women that a lot of guys are like that. That youthful immaturity that you're talking about is me being genuine. I don't like to hold back so I throw around a few curse words to make my post flow a bit better. To make people feel the sh*t I'm writing.

 

Well it worked! But I personally really hate the way men talk about women. In term of us just being "P*ssy". This might be effective short term in getting a reaction but it still speaks of a condsending attitude toward women. I don't run around calling men "d*cks". And if I spoke of men in those terms I think we could agree that here alone more men would be on me for the negative name calling. But it's more acceptable to refer to women in such terms. Because it's still okay to condsend to women in ways you as a man wouldn't want or other men wouldn't want.

 

The youthful immaturity comes from the idea that "hey oh well lots of men want to sleep around so that sucks for women" and then shrugging your shoulders about it. So if you feel that men just want to sleep around, and you feel for women for it, what do you do help women? Do you think reinforcing negative stereotypes about the worst traits in men helps? Again, I don't deny that men want to sleep around sometimes. But saying this is all men are and that you feel for women for it doesn't do anything to garner positive feelings between men and women. And isn't that something we all want? Wouldn't you think a more positive approach is leading the way as a man that desire more of a connection with women and when you hear other men talk about women in terms of just bineg there for sex, standing up against it? That's the only way men are going to have more respect for women. If other men show their respect for women and lead the way in that. Because it's not something men are going to listen to through women. And this is in reality the subject you are touching on. The lack of respect men have for women and their desire to just use women for their own selfish needs. We need good men that will lead the way and show those kind of men that women are more then that. Instead of men that shrug and say "oh well, men are dogs". Because how in the world do you expect women to feel good about men or confident in them when you support the worst traits a man can possess?

 

That being said I'm not the kind of guy you're painting me to be. I'm not that guy that goes looking around for easy p*ssy. Like I said I'm looking for a meaningful relationship.

 

I really dislike it when people judge others without knowing jack sh*t about them. Nothing in my post implied that I myself am the "stereotype" I was talking about in my post. You just grabbed that out of thin air.

 

Nexus, you admitted that you use certain words to get the emotion in your post across. And it worked. Maybe a little too well. You are right that I don't know what kind of man you are. I went with what I could from your post. It wasn't my intention to falsely misrepresent you, it's a pet peeve of mine when men give the message that men are just dogs and how much it sucks for women. It's a immature mindset (even if you are not an immature man in other areas of your life). It sucks for all of us. Because if men are living life under the idea that they are just dogs, that's not doing much for men and and what they can acheive and it's not doing much in building trust in women in men. Men are so much better then you described. And that's the message we really need to discussing. Not supporting the kind of men that act badly and saying this is who men are.

 

Further, I an annoyed that you feel slighted by my comments but how you talked about women in terms of "p*ssy" was apparently perfectly okay.

 

This worlds needs more good men that will lead other men into reaching their potential. The world needs less men advocating that men are just dogs and can't be anything more and women shouldn't expect very much from them.

 

P.S. My own age isn't that far off from yours.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Disenchantedly Yours

[Professor X]

Yes, I don't know much about your other posts but your ability to want a relationship for yourself has nothing to do with the stereotypes you promoted in men. It's just as anti-man as anything a woman could say. And this is something I see common among men who limit their own gender by promoting the worst qualities and then wonder why women don't have much respect for men. I am not denying there are men that want to run around and sleep with women. But I don't think it's most. Even if 50% of men are cheating, 50% of men aren't cheating.

 

There is this huge cultural idea about men that is hugely negative for both men and women. The idea that men are only dogs. That they aren't any better then their hormones. This mentality allows for women to wallow in their bitterness toward men, self supporting their own personal negative experiences, instead of working to understand men. And it allows men to wallow around in stereotyped self traits that don't request men be any better then dogs. SO if a man messes up or portrays negative behavior, other men can say "hey that's just the way men are." No, that isn't how men are. That's how men are when they don't want to be anything more then their worst traits. But men are so much more then what you tout they are.

 

I think about all the men I know in my life. My dad, my uncles, my brother, my grandfather, my next door neighbor and his sons, my own friends and my friend's husbands and boyfriends...and the list goes on. And most of them are good family men that take care of their families and work hard to provide for them. They treat women well.

 

I think many men are just as interested in relationships. But I don't think men know much about themselves inside so it's hard for them to even relate to women to begin with. Men don't spend time exploring their feelings or looking introspectively at themselves. Because it's not considered "masculine". However, If men and women work to change that idea and let the idea of masculinity change, which has alread happened to some degree, then men and women will have better relationships where they don't spend all their time looking to self gratify themselves. And I see the ways this has changed reflected in how much more hands-on fathers are today then they might have been 30 years ago. That's not to say that the fathers of 30 years ago where bad fathers, they did what they did because they thought it best. But today you see men taking their kids to practice or cooking dinner.

 

...

 

Marry me!.

[Sanman]

Marry me!.

 

 

You mean you want to f*ck and leave her right? Because that is what men do.

[Nexus One]

Perhaps you need to surround yourself with better men.

 

I know men from all layers of society. From geeks to jocks, from poor to rich, from nice to jerk. Every layer of society. Just because a lot of men aren't telling YOU as a woman they're screwing around, doesn't mean they aren't. 50% of ALL men, that's the statistic. I'm not pulling that out of my @ss, I myself was shocked when I heard so many guys talk about the adventures outside their relationships.

 

Well it worked! But I personally really hate the way men talk about women. In term of us just being "P*ssy". This might be effective short term in getting a reaction but it still speaks of a condsending attitude toward women. I don't run around calling men "d*cks". And if I spoke of men in those terms I think we could agree that here alone more men would be on me for the negative name calling. But it's more acceptable to refer to women in such terms. Because it's still okay to condsend to women in ways you as a man wouldn't want or other men wouldn't want.

 

Further, I an annoyed that you feel slighted by my comments but how you talked about women in terms of "p*ssy" was apparently perfectly okay.

 

I used th term p*ssy, not because I myself talk about women like that, but because lots of guys talk about women like that when women are not around.

What you're reading is me giving women on this forum a glimpse of how lots of men actually talk behind your backs.

 

The youthful immaturity comes from the idea that "hey oh well lots of men want to sleep around so that sucks for women" and then shrugging your shoulders about it. So if you feel that men just want to sleep around, and you feel for women for it, what do you do help women? Do you think reinforcing negative stereotypes about the worst traits in men helps?

 

Again, you're making assumptions about me. I've had arguments with other guys about the way they treat women. Players mostly. So where did you get the idea I'm just talk and no action? Again you grabbed something out of thin air.

 

And I don't think reinforcing stereotypes helps. I think that lots of women are naive how a lot of men really think and talk about women when they're not around.

 

Again, I don't deny that men want to sleep around sometimes. But saying this is all men are and that you feel for women for it doesn't do anything to garner positive feelings between men and women.

 

And again you're grabbing something out of thin air. Where did I say that all men cheat? Show me the exact sentence.

 

We need good men that will lead the way and show those kind of men that women are more then that. Instead of men that shrug and say "oh well, men are dogs". Because how in the world do you expect women to feel good about men or confident in them when you support the worst traits a man can possess?

 

And yet again you grab something out of thin air. Where did I say I support the worst traits in men. Show me the sentence where I said that and I'll give you credit for it.

 

You're making things up where you stand and then call ME immature just because I use a few curse words to emphasize a point. When I say other men talk like that about women, that doesn't mean I myself share that opinion. That's something you're just assuming, but you can't pinpoint any sentence where I actually said that as myself and out of my own opinion.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Nexus One

[KathyM]

Men DO know what they want, it's just that there are different types of men out there.

 

1. The really good men want a meaningful relationship with someone that they can trust and respect, and their efforts will be to find such a woman.

 

2. The regular guys, most guys, out there do want that also, but will approach any woman they are attracted to, and will not turn down casual sex if it is offered, but they will continue to search for that meaningful relationship with someone they can trust and respect. If you are the one offering them the casual sex, the man will not place you into the category of someone he can have the type of relationship he is ultimately seeking.

 

3. The players and users are just looking to hook up with as many women as they can thinking that that will somehow satisfy them, but it just leaves them without an emotional connection with someone.

 

It is the women that decide which category they fall into. If they willing give themselves to the players and users, then they will have a temporary, short-lived relationship with a guy that doesn't care about them, and is only using them until the next woman comes along that interests them. In Case #2, the women decides the direction of the relationship. If she agrees to casual sex, such as in a FWB situation, she'll be used for that until the guy finds someone he can have that meaningful relationship with that he also craves, at which time the FWB or the girl used to get off on, will be dumped. In Case #1, you have to be that type of girl described in that paragraph if you want a guy that fits the description.

 

Highly unlikely a FWB scenario is going to develop into a meaningful relationship, because the guy will be looking for a different kind of woman for that. Not someone who is willing to give herself over for meaningless casual sex.

[LoveandSuch]

I think men pretty much know what they want (and so do women) but it's just unrealistic. For example Bob the mechanic expects that he's going to get a woman who looks like a model. Jane the secretary thinks she's gonna settle down with the hot rich CEO.

 

While I'm not saying to discount yourself (not at all) just don't have super unrealistic expectations. Bob meets Jenny, she's a decent looking lady and an OK job. Bob doesn't want to "settle" because he thinks he's going to go meet Megan Fox. While this IS a generalization I think many people are concerned with superficial things.

 

I saw someone post about guys that FWBs being afraid of rejection or low self esteem or whatever. I think in some cases that may be true, but not so much. I've had several FWB situtions in the past and it was generally more along the lines of: i found her physically appealing, but there was something about her that I didn't find quite up to the standard of girlfriend material. More or less FWBs ARE a relationship of sorts, just not in the traditional sense.

 

Simply I know what I want, she partially fit the bill, but not quite. This doesn't make me a player, quite the contrary I prefer a relationship to a FWB situation.

 

What you wrote is true, but then once a man is in the running for such a thing, she is all of a sudden too high maintenance.

[madjac74]

Marry me!.

 

She is mine! Back off ~

[Professor X]

You mean you want to f*ck and leave her right? Because that is what men do.

Not sure if serious...

http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-serious-or-not.jpg

She is mine! Back off ~

 

I challenge you to a Mexican duel good sir.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I know men from all layers of society. From geeks to jocks, from poor to rich, from nice to jerk. Every layer of society. Just because a lot of men aren't telling YOU as a woman they're screwing around, doesn't mean they aren't. 50% of ALL men, that's the statistic. I'm not pulling that out of my @ss, I myself was shocked when I heard so many guys talk about the adventures outside their relationships.

 

 

 

 

 

I used th term p*ssy, not because I myself talk about women like that, but because lots of guys talk about women like that when women are not around.

What you're reading is me giving women on this forum a glimpse of how lots of men actually talk behind your backs.

 

 

 

Again, you're making assumptions about me. I've had arguments with other guys about the way they treat women. Players mostly. So where did you get the idea I'm just talk and no action? Again you grabbed something out of thin air.

 

And I don't think reinforcing stereotypes helps. I think that lots of women are naive how a lot of men really think and talk about women when they're not around.

 

 

 

And again you're grabbing something out of thin air. Where did I say that all men cheat? Show me the exact sentence.

 

 

 

And yet again you grab something out of thin air. Where did I say I support the worst traits in men. Show me the sentence where I said that and I'll give you credit for it.

 

You're making things up where you stand and then call ME immature just because I use a few curse words to emphasize a point. When I say other men talk like that about women, that doesn't mean I myself share that opinion. That's something you're just assuming, but you can't pinpoint any sentence where I actually said that as myself and out of my own opinion.

 

Nexus, don't take it personally.

 

DY has some nice theories... and a vision of where she'd like male/female relationships to evolve towards. She shares my viewpoint. I won't give her credit though, because I'm 46 and have been swimming in this pond quite awhile longer than her. I'm one of many in a long line of women before me who don't view men as pigs (unless they WANT to be viewed that way of course... if I weren't looking for a relationship, I might even be tempted to roll around in the mud with a few of the more virile ones!! Hee Hee).

 

I'm certainly not ancient... but I do find it amusing that anyone near the age of 29 (yes, you DY) can possibly point the finger at anyone else for being immature.

 

But to your point, Nexus. Yes, I've worked around all men my entire adult life. I know exactly how they talk, and you are right. Five married men have hit on me hard in the past two years. At least two of them would claim male 'perogative' and that all men do it. One was a complete a-hole and hits on everything that wears a skirt. The other ones I think genuinely developed feelings for me... but I refuse to be the OW.

 

Most of the time, I just laugh and tell them 'nice try'... and can we get back to business now and stop this silliness???

 

Lots of banter back and forth. All fun and games. You might be surprised to hear how the ladies talk too, BTW. Even the 'quality' ones could make one blush...

[madjac74]

Not sure if serious...

http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-serious-or-not.jpg

 

 

I challenge you to a Mexican duel good sir.

 

Is that where we joust on a bicycle with a rusty pole and a trash can lid for a shield? I'm in

[somedude81]

Is that where we joust on a bicycle with a rusty pole and a trash can lid for a shield? I'm in

Bicycle no.

 

A zebra

[Abhuman]

Lots more people know what they want than you think. They just don't act like it when you date them because it's too risky. Or because they/you know the other person can't provide it. Both sexes are to blame. This is a two way street.

 

A couple women I've slept with have simply settled for sleeping with me because there's something about me not right for long term. But they keep wanting me to sleep with them in the mean time because it feels good. At least they get an emotional outlet in the form of their girl friends. If I were to go to my best dude friends with my emotional problems they'd tell me "stfu stop being a pussy".

 

 

 

 

There's lots of truth in what Nexus One has said. Honestly I feel like he's been shadowing my main social circle and wrote about the men in it specifically.

[ThsAmericanLife]

p.s. Nerdy guys would be no different from macho types in this regard - its all a general lack of commitment or genuinely romantic nature.

 

... and lack of understanding of the real value of a commitment.

 

Alot of men seem to be worried about their financial assets... while completely taking for granted the long term emotional benefits that marriage bestows.

 

I challenge anyone here to find one straight male CEO or politician who isn't married.

 

Think about it. Being married allows BOTH men and women to focus on DOING things in life and this world... not on *&^%$)&^ dating and chasing 'tail' for Chrissakes.

[Sanman]

... and lack of understanding of the real value of a commitment.

 

Alot of men seem to be worried about their financial assets... while completely taking for granted the long term emotional benefits that marriage bestows.

 

I challenge anyone here to find one straight male CEO or politician who isn't married.

 

Think about it. Being married allows BOTH men and women to focus on DOING things in life and this world... not on *&^%$)&^ dating and chasing 'tail' for Chrissakes.

 

Not that I disagree with your point about the emotional benefits of a supportive spouse, but both NY state Governor Andrew Cuomo and NYC mayor (and former CEO) Michael Bloomberg are not married. I only bring it up because I recently read an article about it.

[AHardDaysNight]

You can argue that being the CEO of a company means that you're pretty filthy rich. Which means that women would view you as high status, being that you're bringing in a good income.

 

Which means diddly squat to those who are broke and are still in college.

 

However, I don't believe that. I once saw a homeless man with his girlfriend, a hot blond. Don't know what he had going for him, other than he was one of the most likeable and outgoing people I've ever seen.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Marry me!.

 

Hehe.. well I am glad you liked what I had to say.

 

I'd like something in a heart shape..simple but nice..and I like gold.

 

Is that where we joust on a bicycle with a rusty pole and a trash can lid for a shield? I'm in

 

Should I put on my paper made cone hat with a little piece of pink silk hanging from the top?

Edited September 18, 2011 by Disenchantedly Yours

[Nexus One]

Marry me!.

 

I'm assuming you're judging me as the same guy she is? You guys have it so wrong, she basically made sh*t up about me, made things up I didn't even say and you're applauding her for that? If so, then by all means marry each other.

 

It's so pathetic to judge someone you don't know in the first place, but your judgement comes from misinterpreting my posts.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Nexus One

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I know men from all layers of society. From geeks to jocks, from poor to rich, from nice to jerk. Every layer of society. Just because a lot of men aren't telling YOU as a woman they're screwing around, doesn't mean they aren't. 50% of ALL men, that's the statistic. I'm not pulling that out of my @ss, I myself was shocked when I heard so many guys talk about the adventures outside their relationships.

 

I'm with you that men of every fabric of life have the ability to cheat, and do. I'm even with you that men cheat percentage wise a bit more than women. And I know the percentage you talked about wasn't pulled out of your a$$. But again, if 50% of men are cheating, then 50% of men aren't. I'd rather take the conversation off the 50% of men that are and refocus it on who the attention should be on. 50% of them that don't and are really the ones that set the example of what masculinity is.

 

Further, while I hate cheating, every situation is different. I don't think most men get into a relationship hoping upon hope to step out on their partner. Of course there will always be men and women that do. But I don't think most people that fall in love and find themselves in a relationship hope to cheat. Some might cheat once and feel devasted by it. Some might be serial cheaters. Both are included in that 50% stastic you mentioned.

 

But I KNOW the men in my life. And I see so many good examples of manhood in them. I see how hard they work for their families and each one of them teaches me something different about men and what it means to be a good one. And these men in my life have helped me to look for what I need to look for in men I date. That wasn't always so clear to me when I was younger. And I have been hurt by a lot of guys. But I still believe there are so many good ones because of the examples I have in the men around me. I only know of one case of where a man cheated and it was for a family I once babysat for where the husband cheated on his wife.

 

I know you are going to argue that these men don't confess in me what they do. They don't. And they don't have to for me to see their goodness shine through. And if you learn what goodness looks like, you more easily spot it. A man's actions will reflect where his heart is at. Men that are selfish at the heart of it do things to self gratify themselves. Good men don't.

 

And believe me I didn't always think this way. I was so idealistic when I was younger and I got hurt a lot and I went through a time where I was really angry at men and even now I do struggle with some things. Because there are not nice men out there. But then I began thinking about all the men in my life. How they treated the women they loved. How they treated their families. How they treated me. My dad one time gave his own shoes right off his feet to a man that needed them more. He never went to college but he was heck bent on both my brother and I going. My Uncle and his wife play cute little romantic games where they take turns hiding a little rubber spider around their house until the other finds it and moves it. He also gives these amazing heartfelt hugs. My next door neighbors plow out my driveway when it snows without me asking. He just does it! I have a long driveway. And when the power goes out, him and his sons makes sure I'm doing okay. When we got hit by Hurricane Irene, him and his son spent hours trying to help set up a gas powered pump to pump water out of the basement. And another friend brought over a generator to borrow while the power was out. My brother sends both my mom and I Valentine day cards to tell us he loves us. He also one time went to Washington DC for a work thing and ended up making sandwiches for homelesss people and handing them out. My grandpa was with my grandmother as she slowly died. He took care of EVERYTHING for her during that time. She could no longer wash herself and he did that for her. And as they knew their time was running out they would just sit together on the couch or in their bed holding hands telling each other how much they loved one another. She would go to bed very early and he would go with her so she didn't have to be alone. My friend's boyfriend use to bring her coffee and lunch he homemade to work often. And when my dad passed away, my Uncle would help my mom with yard work. My list goes on. These are the men I choose to focus on. Not the ones that run around and cheat. And yes, I understand there are men like there out there. But there are so many good men worth celebrating. I might not have had some great experiences with men in my dating world sometimes but i see good men reflected around me. And it's disrespectful to them to not tell their story. Their story is SO much better then the jerks out there. Those are the men that deserve attention.

 

 

I used th term p*ssy, not because I myself talk about women like that, but because lots of guys talk about women like that when women are not around.What you're reading is me giving women on this forum a glimpse of how lots of men actually talk behind your backs.

 

But when you perpepuate those terms, you do more harm then good.

 

Women don't need you to give us a glimpse of how men talk about us behind our backs. That doesn't help us. We can't even do anything to change that. Most of us have heard it at some point to begin with. Women need men that will hold other men acccountable when they see behavior they know is humilating or desrespectful to other women. Women can't change how men talk about them or see them. Only the good men that KNOW how to treat women can through their leadership.

 

Again, you're making assumptions about me. I've had arguments with other guys about the way they treat women. Players mostly. So where did you get the idea I'm just talk and no action? Again you grabbed something out of thin air.

 

I asked you what kind of action you took Nexus. What action do you take to counter the kind of men we are talking about? Do you stand up to the men you hear talk about women in this way? Do you take another kind of action?

 

And I don't think reinforcing stereotypes helps. I think that lots of women are naive how a lot of men really think and talk about women when they're not around.

 

I'm sure we are. But how does it help matters telling women all the gorey details? Do you think this brings hope into a woman's heart? faith? Trust in men? No. It only feeds the bitterness that most women don't need to hear because of their own experiences anyway. Since women can't change the way some men talk about them, only other good men can. And that's what we really need. We need men that will hold their own gender accountable. Instead of being passive or ignoring the crappy ways a man can talk about women to keep imagined peace. And I premote the same thing among women! Women need to hold other women accountable for how they talk about and talk to men. It's just as anit-man for a man to say "hey, men are just dogs" as it is women. And when I hear a friend of mine say that I say something to the affect of , "ahh that's not true, what about your dad." Or whoever in their life I know that they have a good example of a man in. And usually it makes them get all quite.

 

And again you're grabbing something out of thin air. Where did I say that all men cheat? Show me the exact sentence.

 

You said many/most men. When I said "all", it was just loose conversation. Not the perfectly intended word. Regardless, your point is that most men cheat.

 

And yet again you grab something out of thin air. Where did I say I support the worst traits in men. Show me the sentence where I said that and I'll give you credit for it.

 

When I said you support the worst traits in men, my intention wasn't that you support it through your own morals but you support it by focusing on the bad in men, and not the good. I hope that makes more sense. I didn't word it perfectly. I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think that we need to stop focusing on the bad men and focus more on the good ones.

 

You're making things up where you stand and then call ME immature just because I use a few curse words to emphasize a point. When I say other men talk like that about women, that doesn't mean I myself share that opinion. That's something you're just assuming, but you can't pinpoint any sentence where I actually said that as myself and out of my own opinion

 

In your first post you never made any reference to "this is how other men talk about women." You just talked about women in terms of being "p*ssy". If you don't share that opinion then you really shouldn't use the language that would point to that kind of opinion. There is no way for me to tell what part of your post is sincere and what isn't if you don't articulate it. But now that you have, we have a better understanding of each other. Again, I don't think your a bad guy at all. I think you have a good heart. I just think we need to change the way we talk about men. The type of conversatoins we have about them.

[Nexus One]

I'm with you that men of every fabric of life have the ability to cheat, and do. I'm even with you that men cheat percentage wise a bit more than women. And I know the percentage you talked about wasn't pulled out of your a$$. But again, if 50% of men are cheating, then 50% of men aren't. I'd rather take the conversation off the 50% of men that are and refocus it on who the attention should be on. 50% of them that don't and are really the ones that set the example of what masculinity is.

 

Further, while I hate cheating, every situation is different. I don't think most men get into a relationship hoping upon hope to step out on their partner. Of course there will always be men and women that do. But I don't think most people that fall in love and find themselves in a relationship hope to cheat. Some might cheat once and feel devasted by it. Some might be serial cheaters. Both are included in that 50% stastic you mentioned.

 

But I KNOW the men in my life. And I see so many good examples of manhood in them. I see how hard they work for their families and each one of them teaches me something different about men and what it means to be a good one. And these men in my life have helped me to look for what I need to look for in men I date. That wasn't always so clear to me when I was younger. And I have been hurt by a lot of guys. But I still believe there are so many good ones because of the examples I have in the men around me. I only know of one case of where a man cheated and it was for a family I once babysat for where the husband cheated on his wife.

 

I know you are going to argue that these men don't confess in me what they do. They don't. And they don't have to for me to see their goodness shine through. And if you learn what goodness looks like, you more easily spot it. A man's actions will reflect where his heart is at. Men that are selfish at the heart of it do things to self gratify themselves. Good men don't.

 

And believe me I didn't always think this way. I was so idealistic when I was younger and I got hurt a lot and I went through a time where I was really angry at men and even now I do struggle with some things. Because there are not nice men out there. But then I began thinking about all the men in my life. How they treated the women they loved. How they treated their families. How they treated me. My dad one time gave his own shoes right off his feet to a man that needed them more. He never went to college but he was heck bent on both my brother and I going. My Uncle and his wife play cute little romantic games where they take turns hiding a little rubber spider around their house until the other finds it and moves it. He also gives these amazing heartfelt hugs. My next door neighbors plow out my driveway when it snows without me asking. He just does it! I have a long driveway. And when the power goes out, him and his sons makes sure I'm doing okay. When we got hit by Hurricane Irene, him and his son spent hours trying to help set up a gas powered pump to pump water out of the basement. And another friend brought over a generator to borrow while the power was out. My brother sends both my mom and I Valentine day cards to tell us he loves us. He also one time went to Washington DC for a work thing and ended up making sandwiches for homelesss people and handing them out. My grandpa was with my grandmother as she slowly died. He took care of EVERYTHING for her during that time. She could no longer wash herself and he did that for her. And as they knew their time was running out they would just sit together on the couch or in their bed holding hands telling each other how much they loved one another. She would go to bed very early and he would go with her so she didn't have to be alone. My friend's boyfriend use to bring her coffee and lunch he homemade to work often. And when my dad passed away, my Uncle would help my mom with yard work. My list goes on. These are the men I choose to focus on. Not the ones that run around and cheat. And yes, I understand there are men like there out there. But there are so many good men worth celebrating. I might not have had some great experiences with men in my dating world sometimes but i see good men reflected around me. And it's disrespectful to them to not tell their story. Their story is SO much better then the jerks out there. Those are the men that deserve attention.

 

 

 

 

But when you perpepuate those terms, you do more harm then good.

 

Women don't need you to give us a glimpse of how men talk about us behind our backs. That doesn't help us. We can't even do anything to change that. Most of us have heard it at some point to begin with. Women need men that will hold other men acccountable when they see behavior they know is humilating or desrespectful to other women. Women can't change how men talk about them or see them. Only the good men that KNOW how to treat women can through their leadership.

 

 

 

I asked you what kind of action you took Nexus. What action do you take to counter the kind of men we are talking about? Do you stand up to the men you hear talk about women in this way? Do you take another kind of action?

 

 

 

I'm sure we are. But how does it help matters telling women all the gorey details? Do you think this brings hope into a woman's heart? faith? Trust in men? No. It only feeds the bitterness that most women don't need to hear because of their own experiences anyway. Since women can't change the way some men talk about them, only other good men can. And that's what we really need. We need men that will hold their own gender accountable. Instead of being passive or ignoring the crappy ways a man can talk about women to keep imagined peace. And I premote the same thing among women! Women need to hold other women accountable for how they talk about and talk to men. It's just as anit-man for a man to say "hey, men are just dogs" as it is women. And when I hear a friend of mine say that I say something to the affect of , "ahh that's not true, what about your dad." Or whoever in their life I know that they have a good example of a man in. And usually it makes them get all quite.

 

 

 

You said many/most men. When I said "all", it was just loose conversation. Not the perfectly intended word. Regardless, your point is that most men cheat.

 

 

 

When I said you support the worst traits in men, my intention wasn't that you support it through your own morals but you support it by focusing on the bad in men, and not the good. I hope that makes more sense. I didn't word it perfectly. I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think that we need to stop focusing on the bad men and focus more on the good ones.

 

 

 

In your first post you never made any reference to "this is how other men talk about women." You just talked about women in terms of being "p*ssy". If you don't share that opinion then you really shouldn't use the language that would point to that kind of opinion. There is no way for me to tell what part of your post is sincere and what isn't if you don't articulate it. But now that you have, we have a better understanding of each other. Again, I don't think your a bad guy at all. I think you have a good heart. I just think we need to change the way we talk about men. The type of conversatoins we have about them.

 

The goal of my post wasn't to talk about positive men. The goal of my post post wasn't even to talk about the negative men. The goal of my post was to help verhrzn.

 

And I do it the way I do it. And if people have an issue with that or an issue with me, then that issue is theirs. What I don't like is when people judge me based on things they made up about me themselves. Because that is unjust. And when they have the wrong view of me or spread the wrong view of me, then I try to set the record straight.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

ThsAmericanLife

Nexus, don't take it personally.

 

DY has some nice theories... and a vision of where she'd like male/female relationships to evolve towards. She shares my viewpoint. I won't give her credit though, because I'm 46 and have been swimming in this pond quite awhile longer than her.

 

It's not a theory. I see examples of this everyday. My whole point is to focus on the good men, not the bad. And to encourage both men and women to rethink how they view each other and themselves. People are always evolving.

 

And I never asked for credit. I didn't create anything. But I am all for supporting a different kind of dialogue between men and women instead of more of the same back and forth "this is how you hurt me". Because I think all of us would like more connectedness between the genders then seperateness and bitterment.

 

I am also not picking on Nexus really. He sounds like a good guy. But his comments opened the door to the commentary.

 

I'm certainly not ancient... but I do find it amusing that anyone near the age of 29 (yes, you DY) can possibly point the finger at anyone else for being immature.

 

Age doesn't beget maturity AmericanLife. There are 50 years old who are still immature and 20 year olds that are very mature. Just because I'm around his age doesn't mean I can't offer him something. And just because I can offer him something doesn't mean he can't in return offer me something that I am not as versed or as strong in.

 

Further, I don't think Nexus is all around immature. I think his idea on this subject are.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

The goal of my post wasn't to talk about positive men. The goal of my post post wasn't even to talk about the negative men. The goal of my post was to help verhrzn.

 

And I do it the way I do it. And if people have an issue with that or an issue with me, then that issue is theirs. What I don't like is when people judge me based on things they made up about me themselves. Because that is unjust. And when they have the wrong view of me or spread the wrong view of me, then I try to set the record straight.

 

Most of my post was about having a conversation about men then it was judging you. I infact said that you don't sound like a bad guy at all. If you want to make the focus of the conversation about how you feel misjudged, I'm sorry for that because I think we missed an oppurtunity to have a good conversation about men and women and how we talk about them. But you clearly aren't open to that.

 

Even though your goal wasn't to talk about positive or negative men, you did spend a good portion of your commentary talking about negative things men do or negative ways men talk about women. I fail to see how this helps verhrzn.

 

I've said several times now that I don't think you are a bad guy at all. I've asked you questions to help me understand where you are coming from that you haven't answered. They should have been easy questions for you to answer to clear up any misconceptions I made.

 

What do you think verhrzn gets out of hearing that most men cheat? Or that most men talk about women in disparging terms? If you are a man that does neither of these, how do you purpose she approaches this going forth with the information you've told her? How do you expect women to have any confidence in men if even other men tell us how crappy men treat women?