"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[Disenchantedly Yours]

greh u sucks at sports

 

I have no clue what this means.

[blueskyday]

It's hard on both sides. Women are searching for the men with hearts of gold. Hard to tell the sincere ones from the insincere ones. They appear the same...at first.

 

Men are looking for good women, too. We aren't so different. Either sex needs to protect themselves from self-absorbed people who are out to satifsy selfish desires that don't include an idea of mutuality.

 

I don't sleep with guys who I am not in a relationship with. I tell them this up front. Of course, I throw in how much I love sex, but only when I'm connected to someone emotionally, and to someone I trust. Incentive!

 

FWB situations have no incentive. I'm not interested in a guy who simply wants to sleep with me while he makes up his mind whether or not he generally wants a relationship, and specifically one with me.

 

Nice guys don't try to screw me on the first date. They want to, but they have restraint, and they also want to get to know me first.

 

Nice guys don't use me for sex. I don't use guys for money or sex either. It goes both ways.

 

I'm tired of the movies that show FWB "couples" fall in love and end up happily ever after. Maybe so sometimes, but all these movies do is keep us waiting for someone to make up their mind.

 

I don't want some guy learning on my time so to speak. He doesn't want a relationship? Fine, let's hang out. We're not sleeping together, thank you...that's reserved for a boyfriend.

 

Maybe I'm old fashioned. I don't know. Personally, I'm tired of the nice guys who turn out to be spineless, passive, player types. I actually had a guy cry at a sad movie, turn to me and say "I'm not like other guys. I'm so sensitive." Awww....yeah, then he broke up with me in a text after several months of sleeping with me and telling me he loved me. Later, he said he lied, that he never loved me, and never wanted to be in a relationship.

 

He knew my requirements of being in a relationship in order to have sex, so it's probable I got "played" that way. I'd still put it out there, though, the next time. The reward is doing the right thing on my side. Most guys are honest, but he was a guy who clearly wasn't.

 

His nice guy routine lured me in. So many women had "hurt" him. I'm sure he's off telling some new woman how I did, too....Sorry to rant...just wish people would care about other people's needs, too....

 

I believe in being honest, loyal, fun, sensual....FWB isn't "loyal" in my opinion.

 

I will take my chances waiting for a guy who says he wants a relationship first. It's qualifying a buyer 101.

[Nexus One]

Further, I don't think Nexus is all around immature. I think his idea on this subject are.

 

That's because you judge "my idea on the subject" based on one post. That's not a whole lot of data to base a conclusion on. Besides, my reply was tailored to help out verhrzn, it wasn't tailored to talk about positive men or negative men for that matter.

 

And I do look at positive qualities of men. I try to copy them whenever I can.

 

You can't just judge on the basis of one post that I would never focus on positive men. That's ridiculous. Besides, what I wrote in that post was drawn from experience.

 

From what you wrote, you seem to have different experiences with men in your social environment than I do. But that doesn't mean that therefore my "view" is immature, just because I base my "view" on those different experiences.

 

And note that I put "view" between quotes, because it's not at all my view that all men portray negative behavior or that I only focus on those men. And it's not all my view that we shouldn't focus on positive men.

 

So:

 

A) You got it wrong about my view.

B) Even if I had the view you say I have, then still that doesn't justify you calling it an immature view just because my set of experiences is different from yours.

 

You say: Focus only on the positive. Focusing only on the negative is immature.

But my view is: Focus on both the positive and the negative to get a balanced view.

You say: You only focus on the negative. Your viewpoint is immature.

I say: You got it wrong about my view. Even if I had the view you say I have, then still that doesn't justify you calling it an immature view just because my set of experiences is different from yours.

 

I feel like we're having a petty discussion. It's based on misinterpretation. Perhaps you trying to put words in my mouth was also due to the misinterpretation, but that hit a nerve with me. I really dislike it when people judge someone based on "you said such and such" when no such things were uttered. That's why I tried to set things straight.

Cypress25 did something similar a while ago, but she really pushed it. Repeating over and over again things I never uttered and judging me based on that.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Nexus One

[ThsAmericanLife]

Not that I disagree with your point about the emotional benefits of a supportive spouse, but both NY state Governor Andrew Cuomo and NYC mayor (and former CEO) Michael Bloomberg are not married. I only bring it up because I recently read an article about it.

 

Now that you mention it... yes, I do know that NY state governor Cuomo is not married. But he has politics in his blood.

 

Didn't know about Bloomberg. He's only a two hour drive away. I should look him up

[ThsAmericanLife]

You can argue that being the CEO of a company means that you're pretty filthy rich. Which means that women would view you as high status, being that you're bringing in a good income.

 

Which means diddly squat to those who are broke and are still in college.

 

However, I don't believe that. I once saw a homeless man with his girlfriend, a hot blond. Don't know what he had going for him, other than he was one of the most likeable and outgoing people I've ever seen.

 

I'm saying... for all the guys (not you, sweetie) who aren't looking for a relationship or want to get married....

 

One big component of getting to a higher status position is stability Boring as it sounds... Alot of them didn't start out 'high status'. They got there in part through the love and support of a good woman. And vice versa.

[Nexus One]

What do you think verhrzn gets out of hearing that most men cheat? Or that most men talk about women in disparging terms? If you are a man that does neither of these, how do you purpose she approaches this going forth with the information you've told her? How do you expect women to have any confidence in men if even other men tell us how crappy men treat women?

 

Read the bold parts. I'm trying to tell her she should look for guys that are in the state of mind for a relationship. What she's doing is getting herself into FWB's, but those guys are not in a state of mind for a relationship. They want p*ssy. (I don't care if you find that offensive, that's how those guys think about it, they want sex and not a relationship)

 

"Men Don't Know What They Want"

 

If you yourself want a relationship, but get into an FWB in the hopes that he starts growing feelings for you, then you're letting yourself be used. It's not necessarily his fault, because he's just keeping his end of the bargain. But it's you who is doing it to yourself.

 

If you really want a relationship then everything in your thinking and doing should be focused on that. Going into an FWB does not demonstrate that.

 

Know that guys are able to separate sex and love fairly well. We can come at least two times a day without flinching due to the constant build-up of sperm.

Women are born with all the eggs they'll ever have. So biologically women tend to be more selective about the men they sleep with. Women also tend to grow feelings for a man after sleeping with him. While the latter can happen to men too, I think it doesn't happen a much as it happens to women.

 

And if you know that, yet you get yourself into things like FWB's, then you're wasting your time and you need a change of strategy. It's not getting you what you want.

 

Like MrNate said, men know fairly well what they want. Many guys just want to f*ck lots of p*ssy. For a man to want a relationship he should have grown a consciousness for it, he should be in that state. I know, because I myself am a man. A man that is not in the mental state that opens himself up to a relationship is nearly always a lost cause in the sense that he doesn't want a relationship.

 

Another aspect is the cold hard truth of it. As man you see many girls/women everyday. From a distance many can be considered "f*ckable" so to say, but very few are considered relationship material. They're only considered relationship material when the guy starts crushing on her.

 

And because I as a guy know this and as I suspect women aren't that different from men I have a rule for myself. And that rule is that she should have a crush on me, otherwise no game. And vice versa of course. In my opinion a crush is the best basis for a relationship. A crush is nature's way to pave the way for a relationship.

 

When it comes to FWB's, there are often no crushes involved. Well sometimes maybe, but it often tends to come from one side. A broken heart is the only result.

 

FWB's can only work if both sides are able to uphold their end of the bargain. And that can be hard, because we're human. We feel.

 

 

So I tried to tell her that instead of getting involved with guys who only want sex, she should look for guys who are in the state of mind that opens them up for a relationship. I.e. positive men.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Even though your goal wasn't to talk about positive or negative men, you did spend a good portion of your commentary talking about negative things men do or negative ways men talk about women. I fail to see how this helps verhrzn.

 

... and it does nothing to help verhrzn to share with her your pie in the sky version of male/female relations.

 

Trust me... I've been pitching your story probably longer than you've been alive about how more GOOD men need to mentor other men. I'm just as pissed as anyone to see how men shoot themselves in the foot that way. Heck, who needs misandrysts... the guys are doing enough damage to themselves all on their bloody own!

 

But she is dealing with the here and now with her FWB dude and can't really afford to twiddle her thumbs while society does it's evolving.

 

Fact of the matter... it is very slim odds that FWB guy will end up in a relationship for her. I could be wrong... but that is about all Nexus was trying to get at.

[ThsAmericanLife]

So I tried to tell her that instead of getting involved with guys who only want sex, she should look for guys who are in the state of mind that opens them up for a relationship. I.e. positive men.

 

Exactly....

[Nexus One]

I've said several times now that I don't think you are a bad guy at all.

 

Yes, but after you asked me how old I was, after you called me immature, after you put words in my mouth I never uttered, after you judged me based on things I never said, after you said I promoted bad traits in men, after you called my view immature, after you said I never focused on positive men or their qualities, after you questioned if I really tried to help verhrzn.

 

So perhaps you can see why I tried to set things straight.

 

It's not about you thinking I'm a good guy or bad guy. I wrote those posts in my defense due to you saying all those things while they're not justified, while the basis for it was wrong. So I tried to set the record straight. That's all.

[Feelsgoodman]

Studies demonstrate married men fare far better in life than unmarried men... they're happier, they're healthier, they're wealthier. (Tellingly, married and unmarried women were virtually identical.)

Wow, wait a second...you are being a little too cavalier with these so-called studies. For starters, with the amount of questionable "studies" being conducted by half-baked "researchers" these days, you can find one that proves just about anything you want. Second, even if that is indeed correct, and married men are "happier, healthier and wealthier", as you claim, this "marital bliss" only lasts while they are married, right? And what happens upon divorce? Usually, the answer is financial ruin...children being taken....and ultimately depression. And with the divorce rate being over 50% these days, with 80% of divorce proceedings initiated by women (since you like studies and statistics so much), getting married is akin to playing russian roulette...with half the chambers loaded, from a man's standpoint.

 

So while it's true that most men want to be in long-term relationships, many see marriage as simply too risky a proposition.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Wow, wait a second...you are being a little too cavalier with these so-called studies. For starters, with the amount of questionable "studies" being conducted by half-baked "researchers" these days, you can find one that proves just about anything you want. Second, even if that is indeed correct, and married men are "happier, healthier and wealthier", as you claim, this "marital bliss" only lasts while they are married, right? And what happens upon divorce? Usually, the answer is financial ruin...children being taken....and ultimately depression. And with the divorce rate being over 50% these days, with 80% of divorce proceedings initiated by women (since you like studies and statistics so much), getting married is akin to playing russian roulette...with half the chambers loaded, from a man's standpoint.

 

So while it's true that most men want to be in long-term relationships, many see marriage as simply too risky a proposition.

 

It is women and children who suffer more financially due to divorce, not men.

 

Yes, the divorce rate is still 50%. But to correct the other statistic... It is 75% of divorces that are initiated by women.

 

90% of all divorces are initiated because of cheating. Not drugs, not abuse...

 

Most of the financial concerns would be taken care of by a good prenup. Most states are moving towards joint custody too, where neither gets primary. Of course, you could decide not to have children.

[Woggle]

Wow, wait a second...you are being a little too cavalier with these so-called studies. For starters, with the amount of questionable "studies" being conducted by half-baked "researchers" these days, you can find one that proves just about anything you want. Second, even if that is indeed correct, and married men are "happier, healthier and wealthier", as you claim, this "marital bliss" only lasts while they are married, right? And what happens upon divorce? Usually, the answer is financial ruin...children being taken....and ultimately depression. And with the divorce rate being over 50% these days, with 80% of divorce proceedings initiated by women (since you like studies and statistics so much), getting married is akin to playing russian roulette...with half the chambers loaded, from a man's standpoint.

 

So while it's true that most men want to be in long-term relationships, many see marriage as simply too risky a proposition.

 

This is true. I have seen so many men who thought they had a great marriage only be hit out of the blue with their wife seeking a divorce who then proceeds to completely wreck his life.

 

Men deep down want relationships with women but many are terrified of going through this.

[verhrzn]

So several posters (NexusOne, This American Life) argue that instead of wasting my time on an FWB I should be looking for "relationship-minded" men.

 

My question is, what makes you assume I'm not? I'm still going out, I'm still looking online and open to the idea of meeting someone.

 

But in a year I haven't found any relationship-minded men. It seems the relationship-minded men are, ya know, already in relationships. So where exactly does one find these men? And what does one do in the meantime? Just accept solitude and deterioration? (I ain't getting any younger or prettier over here.)

 

I even went out to a movie on Friday with a guy I found attractive. He spent much of it joking about how many women want to nail him. Gee, goody. And yet he's supposedly "relationship minded." (Complains about how hard it is to find a woman he likes among the DOZENS throwing themselves at him. Ugh.)

 

Could it really be impossible that there are not a lot of relationship-minded men out there (one man for every relationship-minded woman, at least), or perhaps that I'm not the kind of girl relationship-minded men look at and want? (I fully admit I'd make an awful wife... I can't cook, my cleaning habits are akin to a fairly tidy bachelor, and I'm awful at decorating. I really lack the "feminine" touch, as they say.) In the case that relationship-minded men just aren't attracted to you, then what?

[OnyxSnowfall]

Hmm.

 

I agree with the following:

You might need to revisit this.

 

It really is a myth that highly sexual people can't or won't wait. 5-6 dates is not long at all.

 

My current boyfriend and I waited a little over a year before becoming sexually intimate together. It certainly created a sexual tower of built-up frustrations between us, but when we finally began to tear it down, it took several months of constantly going crazy on one another before it (he at least) settled down some (3-5 times per week). I could still ravish him multiple times a day though

 

We did have heavy make-out sessions that occasionally slipped into heavy groping at some point prior though...

 

Needless to say, I wanted to know that we both loved one another first. I have a tendency to develop generic attachments to people I bed, and I was just weary of that. My sexual desire for him, while waiting, was extremely high though (and his didn't wane for me either but, rather increased).

 

It may seem misleading, but in my case, it just meant I actually cared to develop something more with him. In his, he just kept saying that cake is worth more than icing and that he'd rather we be friends than have hot steamy sex for awhile and lose one another, but that he thinks waiting is the path to having both of them anyway (which is ultimately a compliment).

 

I also understand the desire to want to be physically and mentally attractive to someone --- but I think most people would find their lives to be less disappointing / upsetting if they realized that their inner beauty is far more important, valuable and meaningful.

 

At least perhaps humor this:

 

Those who don't pass young will become old saggy creatures (even if they futility try to cling onto their youth through surgeries/botox/whatever, though they can certainly maintain the appearance longer). I suppose my desires could change but, I picture myself being sexual even then (should I live that long). I would much rather be with someone whose looks I don't particularly value and with someone who doesn't particularly value mine --- i.e, we're hot for one another for other reasons, ones that will only grow... not fade as looks do.

 

(Even then, my boyfriend has become more physically appealing as time goes on, whilst he complains about getting chubby and older. I'm sure some men find their wives more beautiful as time goes on too --- when two people treat one another well, love just tends to plunge deeper and get bigger. Being hot is nice and all, but it's not what a relationship is about).

[ThsAmericanLife]

So several posters (NexusOne, This American Life) argue that instead of wasting my time on an FWB I should be looking for "relationship-minded" men.

 

My question is, what makes you assume I'm not? I'm still going out, I'm still looking online and open to the idea of meeting someone.

 

But in a year I haven't found any relationship-minded men. It seems the relationship-minded men are, ya know, already in relationships. So where exactly does one find these men? And what does one do in the meantime? Just accept solitude and deterioration? (I ain't getting any younger or prettier over here.)

 

I even went out to a movie on Friday with a guy I found attractive. He spent much of it joking about how many women want to nail him. Gee, goody. And yet he's supposedly "relationship minded." (Complains about how hard it is to find a woman he likes among the DOZENS throwing themselves at him. Ugh.)

 

Could it really be impossible that there are not a lot of relationship-minded men out there (one man for every relationship-minded woman, at least), or perhaps that I'm not the kind of girl relationship-minded men look at and want? (I fully admit I'd make an awful wife... I can't cook, my cleaning habits are akin to a fairly tidy bachelor, and I'm awful at decorating. I really lack the "feminine" touch, as they say.) In the case that relationship-minded men just aren't attracted to you, then what?

 

I just wanna give you a great big hug. From one geek girl to another.

 

You are obviously an intelligent woman... one who is not afraid to speak her mind. However, I get the sense that deep down, perhaps you don't want to be in a relationship as much as you say you do?? I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm not accepting 'solitude and deterioration'. If I don't happen to be in the line of sight of a man (at the moment) who is relationship minded and compatible with me... I'm using that time to find him or become compatible with someone I want to find.

 

From what I can tell, at least one other poster here sounded like your perfect man. What is holding you back? You both talk anime, he's got your preferred body type...

 

I'd be the last person to say take a cooking class... (although I enjoy cooking when it isn't EXPECTED of me)... why not do some other activities that will make you more attractive to the guys you like?

 

As most of you can tell... I'm not necessarily the soft-squishy type myself... but I know how to be for a man I really like. It isn't that hard. It's not fake either. It just takes a little trust... a willingness to let your defenses down a teensy-weensy bit.

 

Most relationship minded people aren't looking for a perfect fit. Just someone who is adaptable, and vice versa.

[OnyxSnowfall]

My question is, what makes you assume I'm not? I'm still going out, I'm still looking online and open to the idea of meeting someone.

 

The men that you've dropped because they didn't make a move ---

 

do you mean like they make no physical contact whatsoever (by the 2nd or 3rd date?) There's no other signs of them being interested in you (beyond their presence?) If that's the case then I think it's probably best to move on from them myself. But if there are other signs there, those men may be the ones worth delving into more.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Nexus, you keep saying that your response is "tailored to help out verhrzn". Okay, then explain how telling her that most men cheat and most men just want to use women and throw them away helps her? This is like the third time I've asked you this. You've ignored it every time I've asked. This should be a relatively easy question for you to answer. Infact, you've ignored every question I've asked you.

 

You can't just judge on the basis of one post that I would never focus on positive men. That's ridiculous.

 

You talk a big game about pulling things out of thin air but then you pull this and make up something that were never said. I *never* said you never focus on the positives in men. My focus is less on your ratio of "good man talk"/"bad man talk" and more about a popular cultural negative habit in both men and women of promoting men amounting to only the worst common denominator qualities.

 

I infact said many times now that I don't think you are a bad guy at all. But I do find your ideas about who men are harmful and immature toward men themselves. Promoting these "men are just dog" ideas helps no one. It's a immature mentality and it's sadly a popular one that both men and women cling to in their own immature understanding of one another. It allows for no growth in men when we unjustly say things like "oh this is just how men are." Wrong! This is not all men are. Men today are evolving along with women. And I hope that keeps progressing. The men of today are different then the men from 40 years ago. They engage in their relationships, their families and work differently.

 

I don't know how you've responded to other threads. But I don't really need to in the context of this conversation here. Oxy and I had it out in one thread because we didn't agree but where perfectly fine in other threads where we did agree.

 

In this thread, in the context of this conversation, I want to know how telling women that most men cheat and most men want to treat them like disposable items helps?

 

From what you wrote, you seem to have different experiences with men in your social environment than I do. But that doesn't mean that therefore my "view" is immature, just because I base my "view" on those different experiences.

 

My opinion on your thoughts on this subject and the immaturity has nothing to do with our experiences being different.

 

 

You say: Focus only on the positive. Focusing only on the negative is immature.

 

Yeah, I never said that. What I did say is that there is this wrongly huge cultural fallacy that men are just "dogs". Telling women that most men cheat and want to use them and that's "just how it is" falls under the "men are just dogs" mentality. This belief system is immature. And it's also actually very anti-male. Because men are so much more then just that. Because there are good men. Premoting the idea that men are no better then "dogs" allows women to wallow in their hurt and not push through to understand men and make justifications on not giving men a real chance. It allows men to wallow in their personal self gratification and to not push through and be so much more then society tells them they can be with cultural attitudes like "most men cheat".

 

I feel like we're having a petty discussion. It's based on misinterpretation.

 

The discussion is turning petty because your more focused on yourself then you are the actual topic.

 

Perhaps you trying to put words in my mouth was also due to the misinterpretation, but that hit a nerve with me. I really dislike it when people judge someone based on "you said such and such" when no such things were uttered. That's why I tried to set things straight.

 

You should really take your own advice about saying things like "you said" when no such things were uttered. You just pulled a lot of nonsense with your "As" and "Bs" and "you saids" that had absolutely nothing with what I said.

 

You don't want people to judge you based on what you say. Further, you did say many men/most men are going to treat women badly. So I am baffled and don't see how you set anything "straight".

[verhrzn]

The men that you've dropped because they didn't make a move ---

 

do you mean like they make no physical contact whatsoever (by the 2nd or 3rd date?) There's no other signs of them being interested in you (beyond their presence?) If that's the case then I think it's probably best to move on from them myself. But if there are other signs there, those men may be the ones worth delving into more.

 

Well no physical contact whatsoever, and no contact in between dates (except to set up the next date.) So it'll be a date on Thursday, call on Monday to say "hey about X activity on Y day?" and then I won't hear from them until they show up at my door. And during the date, the guy is amusing and we have good conversation, but he very rarely remembers anything I mentioned on the last day, and doesn't really ask further questions about things I say. (We have good conversation because I try to ensure it's about him, 90% of the time.)

 

Perhaps that's how my current FWB hooked me. On top of making it clear he found me physically attractive, he always asks about my day, remembers things I've mentioned, and texts or calls me every day. Maybe these other guys are "relationship-minded," but when my FWB is out-relationshipping them, it says something.

 

So no physical contact, no connection between dates, and hardly any interest shown in me... The only thing that shows these guys were interested was that they showed up and they talked about themselves. I'd say I have good reason to think they're not interested, yes?

[Feelsgoodman]

So no physical contact, no connection between dates, and hardly any interest shown in me... The only thing that shows these guys were interested was that they showed up and they talked about themselves. I'd say I have good reason to think they're not interested, yes?

No.

 

If they weren't interest, why would they want to go on dates with you? Think about it...would you go on a date with a guy you weren't attracted to?

[counterman]

There are plenty of relationship-minded men out there, but I can only speak for myself. As one of them, I find that most girls I meet simply are worth the effort. Maybe because they're in there early 20s and just looking to have fun, so to speak. I don't know. But I find a lot of them think they're self-entitled and have developed themselves very little as people. So I rather not waste my time and just continue to work on myself until I do meet girls that are right for me. I have an idea of what I want and as time goes on this idea keeps refining itself and shaping itself to something clearer.

 

Don't waste your time with those guys who are just interested in talking about themselves. You're right to drop them.

 

With FWB, I can only speak from what I know of the nature of some of them, but most of them would say/do anything to get sex, even if that means appearing to care. As soon as you cut the sex part out, he/she disappears. Not saying this is with your case. I haven't read every post so excuse me if I don't know what's really going on... but if you enjoy it, then yeah. Though, I personally wouldn't go down that track even if I haven't met a right relationship-minded girl.

[Nexus One]

So several posters (NexusOne, This American Life) argue that instead of wasting my time on an FWB I should be looking for "relationship-minded" men.

 

My question is, what makes you assume I'm not? I'm still going out, I'm still looking online and open to the idea of meeting someone.

 

But in a year I haven't found any relationship-minded men. It seems the relationship-minded men are, ya know, already in relationships. So where exactly does one find these men? And what does one do in the meantime? Just accept solitude and deterioration? (I ain't getting any younger or prettier over here.)

 

I even went out to a movie on Friday with a guy I found attractive. He spent much of it joking about how many women want to nail him. Gee, goody. And yet he's supposedly "relationship minded." (Complains about how hard it is to find a woman he likes among the DOZENS throwing themselves at him. Ugh.)

 

Could it really be impossible that there are not a lot of relationship-minded men out there (one man for every relationship-minded woman, at least), or perhaps that I'm not the kind of girl relationship-minded men look at and want? (I fully admit I'd make an awful wife... I can't cook, my cleaning habits are akin to a fairly tidy bachelor, and I'm awful at decorating. I really lack the "feminine" touch, as they say.) In the case that relationship-minded men just aren't attracted to you, then what?

 

Considering what you've been telling, that really comes across as hypocritical. I'm sorry verhrzn, but while that guy might have been unsuccessfully trying to make you jealous by telling you how many girls were trying to bang him, you are in fact banging your FWB while dating him and while you are dating relationship oriented guys.

 

You're both sabotaging what you're trying to achieve with your FWB and you're disrespecting the guys you're dating by f*cking your FWB while you date them. And we're talking about guys looking for an LTR. So you'll be f*cking your FWB while you are dating your potential future husband.

 

I can't understand that a girl as intelligent as yourself, does not see how disrespectful and disloyal that is. And for not realizing that I don't think you're ready for a relationship, because you're not behaving as girlfriend material yet.

[coolheadal]

I know what I want and she's on her sweet way driving 63 miles to see me tonight.. I am so hungry I haven't even eaten any food today. Outback steak house is closed and there goes Prime Rib dinner. Must be love in the air for me!

[somedude81]

Three's also the fact that she's dropping guys who don't make moves on her right away.

 

Sounds like there are some things she needs to stop and think about instead of just going straight into bitter mode.

[verhrzn]

Considering what you've been telling, that really comes across as hypocritical. I'm sorry verhrzn, but while that guy might have been unsuccessfully trying to make you jealous by telling you how many girls were trying to bang him, you are in fact banging your FWB while dating him and while you are dating relationship oriented guys.

 

You're both sabotaging what you're trying to achieve with your FWB and you're disrespecting the guys you're dating by f*cking your FWB while you date them. And we're talking about guys looking for an LTR. So you'll be f*cking your FWB while you are dating your potential future husband.

 

I can't understand that a girl as intelligent as yourself, does not see how disrespectful and disloyal that is. And for not realizing that I don't think you're ready for a relationship, because you're not behaving as girlfriend material yet.

 

Whoa whoa whoa, how the heck am I dating him?? I didn't realize having dinner (which I paid for, natch) and/or seeing a movie meant I was dating someone. Otherwise, WOW, I've been dating my friends without even realizing it! I said I found him attractive, and we went and saw a movie.

 

I really don't see how it's hypocritical to date around (again, not quite sure what you qualify as "dating") when I'm not committed to a guy. A guy doesn't just automatically get my loyalty and respect just for asking me to a movie, and he doesn't earn exclusive rights to my lady parts just because he utters the phrase "looking for a serious relationship."

 

If a guy wants me to stop seeing/sleeping with other people, then he better be prepared to offer me a commitment. Someone who is at best a casual stranger does not get to dictate what I do in my personal life. If a guy is just so very offended that he's not my only option when he hasn't even asked me to be his girlfriend, he can go find himself a innocent co-dependent who will happily latch onto him just because he presents himself to her.

 

Your logic just doesn't make sense. The whole point of dating before getting into a serious relationship is to get to know if you even want to enter into a serious relationship. If I know that about a guy right off the bat (I'd have to, to be willing to cut out all other prospects) then why the heck am I wasting time with the dating, let's just get straight to the relationship! But then, how can I possibly tell if a guy is worth a relationship if I never go on a few dates with him?

 

Sorry, that attitude just smacks of slut-shaming, and the idea that a woman should make a man (apparently even a man who hasn't agreed to be serious with her yet) the center of her world before he actually demonstrates he's worth it.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

I'm in my mid twenties (26), and I'm starting to be convinced the reason we keep running into guys who don't want a relationship, or isn't sure what he wants, or only wants friends-with-benefits is because they're so prevalent in our generation. Over the last year, I've gone out on dates only to be told that the guy wasn't sure what he wants, isn't "ready" for a relationship, only wants friends with benefits. Every single one.

 

I'm in an FWB situation right now. A few days ago I told him, calmly, that I 'd prefer he not mention other women he was (I assumed) sleeping with, as I'm not allowed jealousy in an FWB but I would like some boundaries. He responded that there was no one else he was interested in, that he focusing only on me... And that he'd been seriously considering how to bring up the topic of dating again, but was unsure how to broach it, or even how to begin. He has so little experience in relationships, and so many of them ending badly, he really isn't even sure how it should all go.

 

It got me thinking about whether this whole idea of discarding "uncertain" guys, guys who seem to want just rebounds or FWBs, while having some wisdom, is actually based on a misunderstanding of guys my age.

 

The cynical side of me says it's because men are pigs, and just want to use us without the commitment (FWBs) and for the ego rub (guys not over their exes.)

 

But my observations don't necessarily support this. Sure, some men are that way, just as some women really do just want to use a guy for his money, or just to have a ring on her finger and a kid in her lap, irregardless of the actual man she married. My observation, in real life, and reading forums like this, are that men are just as desperate for relationships as women... maybe even more so. Studies demonstrate married men fare far better in life than unmarried men... they're happier, they're healthier, they're wealthier. (Tellingly, married and unmarried women were virtually identical.)

 

So the majority of men want, need, relationships... but they don't know how to get them. They seem paralyzed by fear, by the inability to determine what it is they want precisely, and how to get it. Men are not taught to verbalize their feelings, they are not taught to examine their feelings. The last decade of changing gender roles has opened up more opportunities for women, which I LOVE, but it's also taken away some of the definitions of what it means to be a man, and there's been nothing to replace them.

 

There's a phenomenon in Japan, where young men (and it effects only young men) feel so confused and socially alien from the people around them, that they literally lock themselves in their rooms for years at a time. They paper over their windows, "to shut out the sun." The author tastefully suggests that some of this might have to do with young women's total rejection of men. Young women no longer want to get married... they don't want to lose their economic independence and confirm to rigid gender roles of wife and mother. The men react to this rejection by literally removing themselves from society.

 

Perhaps there is a lesson in that for young American men as well. We see FWBs and rebounds as manipulative tools for men to get sex (and again, for some, they are), but maybe it's a lot less cynical than that, maybe it's that an FWB is easy, and young men don't know how to go from point A (an easy FWB, something safe that is comfortable and familiar) to point B (a committed relationship.)

 

I'm not saying we should let guys off the hook. Women shouldn't sacrifice their want of a serious relationship because men are slow on the uptake. However, maybe it's time to approach these men with a little more understanding, give them a chance, not turn them away as soon as they utter that they're "not sure what they want."

 

I know why we do it... self-protection. Put our heart on a line with a guy who's not sure? It MUST mean he's not into me, it must mean he's a pig and a manipulator. It's a lot easier to brush off a guy who's unsure, but otherwise a genuine, kind-hearted, compatible guy, and move onto the next, then to open your heart and take that risk.

 

Maybe it's a perfect storm of mis-communication. He doesn't want to risk his heart, so he keeps it casual, tries to satisfy his relationship desire without really putting himself on the line. She doesn't want to risk her heart, brushes him off, and moves to the next. But where is this getting us? To forums full of angry young men, and lonely young women.

 

I won't tell anyone to risk your heart on a guy that would just use you for sex. It seems that anything less than a "yes I want a relationship with you" within a short time frame, without any sexual contact of any kind, will be enough to doom your future (and put out a "vibe," apparently) in the same philosophy vein of "He's Just Not That Into You."

 

My FWB is sweet, supportive, respectful and genuine. All my friends tell me to give him a chance. I'm choosing to take a risk, to open up my heart until I can't take it any more. Maybe it'll work, and maybe it'll fail. But I can't bring myself to brush off a guy I am so compatible with because he doesn't have the tools to go from point A to point B just yet.

 

What do you guys think? Has misunderstanding and an absence of relationship tools given us an overly cynical view of our fellow humans? (Especially of guys?)

 

 

 

When I finally got to the end of all of this, I had the feeling that "The Ladder Theory" explains most of the reasons for your observations.

 

that is at ladder theory dot calm, for the uninitiated.

 

(and yes, I know it is "com" !!! - LOL)

 

 

Everyone everywhere is just trying to date-UP and marry-UP, while most of us way down near the 'abyss' haven't a clue what limitations that creates for those who truly ARE near the top of the ladder.

 

 

I do agree that almost everybody would be better off if in the throes of a long-term relationship.

 

(and those who ARE indeed happy in such relationships are underrepresented at LoveShack and on other online message boards, so in some ways there is only one way to find out...)