"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[ThsAmericanLife]

It's true though. Women will say that one thing is attractive to women but men get out their in the dating world and find out the complete opposite is true.

 

SOME women.. and SOME men. Sheesh.

[Woggle]

Trying being a man in the modern day dating world and you will see what I mean.

[verhrzn]

Trying being a man in the modern day dating world and you will see what I mean.

 

Try being a woman. Each gender has their hardships and their complaints; why insist that men have it harder?

[Woggle]

Try being a woman. Each gender has their hardships and their complaints; why insist that men have it harder?

 

I don't deny that women face hardships so why deny that men do? Quite honestly men are actually quite easy to figure out. What we like from a woman is very simple while women are confusing as all hell to please.

[carhill]

We have to have it harder; we have the penis

[ThsAmericanLife]

If anything, the easy rapport and close intimacy I had with platonic female friends hindered my love life, not because of them, but because of the information I took away from those relationships about women; who they were, what they liked, how they related. I became an expert at making female friends. This is very different than becoming an expert at romance. I don't regret those friendships, nor the ones I have today with my male friend's wives, but those dynamics in no way made me a better lover or husband. Totally different realm of interaction, IME. Perhaps this is one area where men and women are different, due to the prevailing socio-psychological gender assignments.

 

As an example, my exW is great at relating to men. She likes a lot of male interests, can 'hang with the guys', shoot a gun, stuff like that, in addition to her feminine interests. Men, because of this, don't see her only as a platonic friend; they want to fµck her. Those aspects of who she is make her attractive to them. Similar aspects in a man make him unattractive to a woman, if my life experience has been any sort of indicator, irrespective of having great female friendships. Men and women evidently are simply wired differently in this regard. I had to come to accept that and conform, or else I would remain celibate for life. It's really as simple as that. Now, having done the time, I feel no need to conform and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Ah, ok. I think I understand. I've become a bit of an expert at making male friends too. Partly because I have to as part of my job. Because of this, I don't assume every interaction (or actually, ANY interaction) with a man is necessarily romantic.

 

Should mention though... If you told me you knew how to knit and cook, in addition to changing oil on my motorcycle and knowing how to torque the bolts on a faucet without breaking the porcelain...

 

That would make me want to f*ck you more... not less... If that makes you feel better

 

But I'm not 'normal'. Both my fiancee and ex-H were creative, emotional, touchy-feely types.

[ThsAmericanLife]

It's true though. Women will say that one thing is attractive to women but men get out their in the dating world and find out the complete opposite is true.

 

I also find that most people are just not all that self-aware.

 

Really...nothing to do with gender.

 

For every one of your examples, I could give my own. No point in that.

[thatone]

Ah, ok. I think I understand. I've become a bit of an expert at making male friends too. Partly because I have to as part of my job. Because of this, I don't assume every interaction (or actually, ANY interaction) with a man is necessarily romantic.

 

Should mention though... If you told me you knew how to knit and cook, in addition to changing oil on my motorcycle and knowing how to torque the bolts on a faucet without breaking the porcelain...

 

That would make me want to f*ck you more... not less... If that makes you feel better

 

But I'm not 'normal'. Both my fiancee and ex-H were creative, emotional, touchy-feely types.

 

i don't think you're getting his point. he's saying that the thought processes he learned from female friends didn't help him with women, because women don't want to be in romantic relationships with womanly men.

 

example: if you tell me about your problems i'm gonna rattle off three potential solutions off the top of my head and feel pretty happy with having solved your issue, and be content that there's nothing further to discuss about the problem at hand since i have solved it, you simply need to choose one of three said solutions. but that's not what you want when discussing that problem with a 'friend', is it?

 

and learning to think the way you want isn't going to help me with women romantically, either, is it?

[carhill]

Should mention though... If you told me you knew how to knit and cook, in addition to changing oil on my motorcycle and knowing how to torque the bolts on a faucet without breaking the porcelain...

 

My exW often described me as blue collar hands with a white collar mind. I think she liked (and, if her post-D requests have been any indicator, likes) my combination of traits, including those most women would consider feminine for a man, but neglected to properly recognize that she didn't find them attractive; in fact, on more than one occasion, she would ask the question 'why can't you be more like a normal man?' I mean, this after I come in smelling like hydraulic oil (my 'job') and cook her dinner. Yet, even with all that, the socio-psychological differences between the genders had her co-habiting with her new BF in the nice house I fixed up with those blue collar hands and white collar mind before we were divorced. Like I said, men like to fµck women like her. The reverse, not so much. It is what it is. I accept it now. I've found what I want and it doesn't require conforming or contorting to what society decries to be the ordained path.

[Woggle]

I agree. For all the talk we here about how men need to accept changing roles if a man steps outside the gender box just a tiny bit many women will lose attraction for him.

[ThsAmericanLife]

i don't think you're getting his point. he's saying that the thought processes he learned from female friends didn't help him with women, because women don't want to be in romantic relationships with womanly men.

 

example: if you tell me about your problems i'm gonna rattle off three potential solutions off the top of my head and feel pretty happy with having solved your issue, and be content that there's nothing further to discuss about the problem at hand since i have solved it, you simply need to choose one of three said solutions. but that's not what you want when discussing that problem with a 'friend', is it?

 

and learning to think the way you want isn't going to help me with women romantically, either, is it?

 

Interesting... I never felt that having male friends made me more, um, 'manly'. If anything, it helped make me LESS bitter, more understanding, and MORE compassionate about men's struggles. Which, interestingly enough, seems to make me more attractive to men. If Carhill's insight into women has made him less attractive... I'd say that might be a matter of perception(?). Or maybe, just maybe... for him, making female friends is safer... I know that having male friends feels 'safer' to me... He gets to enjoy the company of women without risking being hurt again. (Sorry Carhill, just my armchair therapy session here)

 

I don't know Carhill's story. He's been married before, and seems to have enjoyed it. I know of other men who have come out of long marriages feeling like a 'failure' with women romantically, but I don't get that at all. This board is full of men who would love to have his experience.

 

As for your assumptions about what women want.... Well, we've been down that path before, you and I. No sense rehashing it.

[carhill]

thatone makes a really good point with his example. I watch my male friends 'dismiss' their wives like he describes and sometimes it frankly shocks me, yet they remain attracted and in loving relationships/marriages for decades. I just can't bring myself to treat people that way. Perhaps that's what I'm talking about regarding ignoring society's ordained path. For most men, like he exemplifies, this kind of discourse is normal and they feel nothing about it.

 

As an example, in MC, we were discussing the stresses of buying a new home (the one I mentioned upthread). At one point I had my fill and, based on the decades of real estate experience I have, proclaimed 'someone has to lead' and I thought it eminently reasonable that I do so, given my greater experience and expertise. Shortly thereafter, my exW filed for divorce. If fact, that MC session was the last we attended. Most men I know would simply have told their wives to STFU. And they would have. EOS.

[Woggle]

I see that as well. I know men who act like the old school king of the castle and what they say goes yet they are treated like kings yet the men who truly do listen to their wives and try hard to be equal partners get crapped on. I don't know why that is.

[ThsAmericanLife]

My exW often described me as blue collar hands with a white collar mind. I think she liked (and, if her post-D requests have been any indicator, likes) my combination of traits, including those most women would consider feminine for a man, but neglected to properly recognize that she didn't find them attractive; in fact, on more than one occasion, she would ask the question 'why can't you be more like a normal man?' I mean, this after I come in smelling like hydraulic oil (my 'job') and cook her dinner. Yet, even with all that, the socio-psychological differences between the genders had her co-habiting with her new BF in the nice house I fixed up with those blue collar hands and white collar mind before we were divorced. Like I said, men like to fµck women like her. The reverse, not so much. It is what it is. I accept it now. I've found what I want and it doesn't require conforming or contorting to what society decries to be the ordained path.

 

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

 

You are ahead of your time. I know that is small consolation.

[thatone]

I agree. For all the talk we here about how men need to accept changing roles if a man steps outside the gender box just a tiny bit many women will lose attraction for him.

 

so logically, a man should ignore those suggestions and write them off as fantasy or grandstanding on the part of women.

 

glad we're on the same page .

[Woggle]

so logically, a man should ignore those suggestions and write them off as fantasy or grandstanding on the part of women.

 

glad we're on the same page .

 

Yes. Look at what a woman does.

[Woggle]

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

 

You are ahead of your time. I know that is small consolation.

 

Meanwhile men who are behind their time get treated great in their marriages.

[ThsAmericanLife]

thatone makes a really good point with his example. I watch my male friends 'dismiss' their wives like he describes and sometimes it frankly shocks me, yet they remain attracted and in loving relationships/marriages for decades. I just can't bring myself to treat people that way. Perhaps that's what I'm talking about regarding ignoring society's ordained path. For most men, like he exemplifies, this kind of discourse is normal and they feel nothing about it.

 

As an example, in MC, we were discussing the stresses of buying a new home (the one I mentioned upthread). At one point I had my fill and, based on the decades of real estate experience I have, proclaimed 'someone has to lead' and I thought it eminently reasonable that I do so, given my greater experience and expertise. Shortly thereafter, my exW filed for divorce. If fact, that MC session was the last we attended. Most men I know would simply have told their wives to STFU. And they would have. EOS.

 

I wouldn't have (STFU that is). Shortly before my divorce, my now ex-H told me he was "calling the shots" from now on.

 

He wanted me to quit grad school. Me going to grad school was something we agreed to before we even got serious, much less married. I waited five years to attend... and supported him for his.

 

I said no to quitting. He had an affair with a co-worker. We went to counseling and tried to work things out, but I learned during that time that he apparently thought I was going to turn into Betty Crocker after I agreed to marry him. Not sure why.

 

I did give him a choice at one point though... I told him, sure, I'll quit grad school. I'll do anything you want.. If you agree to ****ing a dead body (dead, meaning, dead spirit... not literally dead). He didn't like that choice.

 

So there are plenty of false expectations to go around.

Edited September 20, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife

[ThsAmericanLife]

Meanwhile men who are behind their time get treated great in their marriages.

 

No offense... I'm starting to believe you only THINK you treated your wife great.

 

That 75% of the guys ending up divorced? You mean, all those guys are ahead of their time? Hardly.

 

The article I attached was all about men's efforts being misdirected... and I would say intentionally misdirected because they are scared sh*tless at appearing 'feminine'.

 

yet, according to Carhill's example, when women take on more masculine qualities, that makes her more attractive to men?

 

Something isn't adding up here fellas...

[AHardDaysNight]

Nevermind all the guys that treat women with respect and dignity. We're considered "nice guys", too nice to date but nice enough to talk to and keep as friends, I suppose?

[thatone]

thatone makes a really good point with his example. I watch my male friends 'dismiss' their wives like he describes and sometimes it frankly shocks me, yet they remain attracted and in loving relationships/marriages for decades. I just can't bring myself to treat people that way. Perhaps that's what I'm talking about regarding ignoring society's ordained path. For most men, like he exemplifies, this kind of discourse is normal and they feel nothing about it.

 

As an example, in MC, we were discussing the stresses of buying a new home (the one I mentioned upthread). At one point I had my fill and, based on the decades of real estate experience I have, proclaimed 'someone has to lead' and I thought it eminently reasonable that I do so, given my greater experience and expertise. Shortly thereafter, my exW filed for divorce. If fact, that MC session was the last we attended. Most men I know would simply have told their wives to STFU. And they would have. EOS.

 

i'm not really dismissive, that's not what i meant. i can give an example recently with my gf over such issues...

 

a) the man side

 

she tells me one day when i call that she has "a problem" with a class she is supposed to be taking (going back to school post 30, don't get me started on that...) this semester in a text message after not taking the call. i find out later the next day that the reason she didn't take the call was she was crying on the phone to her mother at the time about the class being cancelled and the school not informing her of the cancellation. well, i quickly pointed out that if she had simply answered the phone, i would have told her that a business associate of mine is a donor to another university in the same city, and this being an undergrad class that's just a pre-req, i could have gotten her into the exact same class down the street at an equivalent university the next day with a single phone call. my exact words were "all problems have solutions, but it helps if you answer the phone".

 

b) the woman side

 

after our first few dates she got suddenly apprehensive, we were long distance technically (i split my time between two cities and she lives in one of them), but due to me traveling she felt like she owed me more dates in a given week due to me coming from out of town to meet her at that point and that coupled with working 9 days straight kinda ran her ragged over that first couple of weeks. sensing that, i brought up the conversation and let her vent, agreed with her, and reassured her that she didn't have to worry about it, her willingness to accommodate me told me all that i needed to know, and i was willing to work with whatever her schedule was able to provide, date-wise.

 

different approaches, but gaining points with each. there's a time and place for discussing feelings (in which case i will listen and honestly consider what she's saying, since it's usually pretty accurate) and a time and place for taking control and telling her what she should do (because that's what men do, we solve problems).

 

she listens to my practical advice, i listen to her emotional advice.

 

what's wrong with that?

[carhill]

I see that as well. I know men who act like the old school king of the castle and what they say goes yet they are treated like kings yet the men who truly do listen to their wives and try hard to be equal partners get crapped on. I don't know why that is.

I only make that assertion because I've seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears right in my presence. This isn't 'behind closed doors' stuff and it isn't just one or two male friends. These are successful men; leaders. King of the Castle might be a good descriptor of them. Granted, we are all older and most of my male friends are older than myself, so we're talking about a different generation here, although an even older generation, probably acting in similar ways, never socialized or role-modeled myself in that way. My dad respected my mom and treated her well always, but he did 'lead' and she respected and valued that leadership. In public, that was reinforced by the behaviors of other men towards their 'women' (wives, mothers, daughters), though I would see domestic violence rear its ugly head in some marriages as I grew into adulthood.

 

When a man settles on what he naturally wants and goes after it and finds pushback and ignoral at every turn, the journey can become confusing and disappointing, creating the appearance of him not knowing what he wants. I don't think it's really that. He knows, but has forgotten due to the process. Once he reclaims himself, his authentic self, he can move forward with more clarity.

 

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

 

Thank you and I would extend that sentiment to my exW as well. I think the whole thing was as confusing for her as it was disappointing to me. I think she wanted to be attracted but it just wasn't working for her and it came to a point, as another LS'er mentioned, that she just didn't want to be married to me. Fair enough. I'm glad she owned that part. She got what she wanted and, upon reflection, so did I; markedly, the freedom to be myself, without reservation. It's a good day

[Woggle]

No offense... I'm starting to believe you only THINK you treated your wife great.

 

That 75% of the guys ending up divorced? You mean, all those guys are ahead of their time? Hardly.

 

The article I attached was all about men's efforts being misdirected... and I would say intentionally misdirected because they are scared sh*tless at appearing 'feminine'.

 

yet, according to Carhill's example, when women take on more masculine qualities, that makes her more attractive to men?

 

Something isn't adding up here fellas...

 

I did treat her great and even her sister says she ruined the best thing that ever happened to her. I was very much a feminist man until my divorce. Even now I prefer an equal relationship and have one but I know it is not easy for a man to find one. Much of the time they start looking at you as a brother or a very good friend they have no attraction to. Luckily my wife is much more mature than that.

[ThsAmericanLife]

i'm not really dismissive, that's not what i meant. i can give an example recently with my gf over such issues...

 

a) the man side

 

she tells me one day when i call that she has "a problem" with a class she is supposed to be taking (going back to school post 30, don't get me started on that...) this semester in a text message after not taking the call. i find out later the next day that the reason she didn't take the call was she was crying on the phone to her mother at the time about the class being cancelled and the school not informing her of the cancellation. well, i quickly pointed out that if she had simply answered the phone, i would have told her that a business associate of mine is a donor to another university in the same city, and this being an undergrad class that's just a pre-req, i could have gotten her into the exact same class down the street at an equivalent university the next day with a single phone call. my exact words were "all problems have solutions, but it helps if you answer the phone".

 

b) the woman side

 

after our first few dates she got suddenly apprehensive, we were long distance technically (i split my time between two cities and she lives in one of them), but due to me traveling she felt like she owed me more dates in a given week due to me coming from out of town to meet her at that point and that coupled with working 9 days straight kinda ran her ragged over that first couple of weeks. sensing that, i brought up the conversation and let her vent, agreed with her, and reassured her that she didn't have to worry about it, her willingness to accommodate me told me all that i needed to know, and i was willing to work with whatever her schedule was able to provide, date-wise.

 

different approaches, but gaining points with each. there's a time and place for discussing feelings (in which case i will listen and honestly consider what she's saying, since it's usually pretty accurate) and a time and place for taking control and telling her what she should do (because that's what men do, we solve problems).

 

she listens to my practical advice, i listen to her emotional advice.

 

what's wrong with that?

 

Whatever works for you. I'm saying it isn't gender specific.

 

People like to come up with these 'rules' rather than just realize that everyone is an individual.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I did treat her great and even her sister says she ruined the best thing that ever happened to her. I was very much a feminist man until my divorce. Even now I prefer an equal relationship and have one but I know it is not easy for a man to find one. Much of the time they start looking at you as a brother or a very good friend they have no attraction to. Luckily my wife is much more mature than that.

 

It is hard for anyone to find a healthy relationship where both are appreciated for their God given talents... whatever they happen to be.

 

I'd like you though Woggle, and other well-meaning gents, to quit saying 'women' this and 'women' that... and in the same breath... barking about 'man-haters'.

 

For the record, please observe that I was 'cheated on'... and also given the bait and switch in my former marriage.

 

Do you see me drafting threads constantly saying "why do all men cheat?" or... "Why can't men live up to their promises?"

 

No, I don't do that. Waste of time.... because I know damn well I had something to do with picking him. You picked yours. There are other women here who have had it worse than me... and aren't going on tirades either.

 

My ex was one person. Your ex-wife was ONE person. The fact that you picked better this time... good for you! Now just enjoy it and stop living in your past already...