"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[ThsAmericanLife]

I never claimed double standards. I claim rigid morality.

 

For instance, this idea of "character." How is it "character" to act single when I am single? How is it "character" to sit at home and be alone, even though it hurts and affects absolutely NO ONE if I don't?

 

I've spent YEARS following your advice, being alone, "having character", and the "relationship minded guys" still pass me by.

 

And yes, that's YOUR experience, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but that we have different takes on it. Your idea of a "relationship minded man" is one who acts like you, aka no other prospects. I don't require that a guy not be sleeping with anyone... until I'm sleeping with him, until he's my boyfriend, I consider it none of my business, just like I consider the stranger on the bus next to me's sex life none of my business.

 

And if that's the ONLY kind of "relationship minded men" out there, then I'm not sure I want one, as I don't want a guy to demand I tie myself down to him sexually and emotionally before I even know him, and am ready to decide that I WANT to be tied to him.

 

This is actually quite funny, Verhzn.... Hilarious in fact.

 

You've simultaneously decided that people who CHOOSE not to have FWB while dating have no 'options'... and that ones who also make this choice have rigid morality, are possessive, hate sex... blah blah. Wow, your justifications never, ever stop.

 

I've turned down more offers in the past WEEK than you've probably had all year, sweetheart...

 

Why is that? Why do I have so many 'options' but turn them down? Do I have rigid morality? Do I hate sex? In your book, yea... In my book... I have the experience to know where these things end up if the man isn't 'free' and focused... But you choose to ignore this experience and the experience of others who have been down this path before so you can continue your current way of life.

 

And thanks for the insults. Not that it really bothers me. I really think it is quite funny.

 

Anyway, I'm done feeling sorry for your predicament... much as I'm done feeling sorry for men who engage in the same behavior here. It looks pretty much the same in my eyes...

[verhrzn]

With that attitude (what I bolded) you will never get into a relationship, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I mean jeez Louise, is it that hard to go a little while without sex while you focus on finding a relationship minded guy? Most of these types (myself included) would be completely turned off. If your focus is on your FWB than it can't be on finding a relationship because you aren't "technically" single. You're "sort of" single.

 

It's not just the sex, it's also the companionship and the sense that I am attractive.

 

Like I said, I've been single for years without resorting to an FWB (this is the first and only time I've done it knowingly.) And it didn't pay off in any way. If anything, it made it worse, because then I looked desperate, which as we're told over and over on these forums is like anti-relationship venom.

 

So, now I'm no longer desperate and spending all my time consumed with thoughts of why I'm not good enough for all these "relationship-minded men" that seem to be littering the ground everywhere else. I still want a relationship, but I am no longer pathetic over not having one.

 

Isn't that actually going to make me more attractive in the long run, that I'm not latching onto the first guy that gives me a scrap of attention?

[Mangomonkey]

Wait i think i contradicted myself in the last few sentences lol. What i meant by i encourage my female friends to whore around is that I'm still accepting of them. On a deep level. So i have love that. But the other women who i barely know who does that. Big no no. Idk if i made myself clear... Well your gonna get it. eventually

[Nexus One]

I have the experience to know where these things end up if the man isn't 'free' and focused...

 

That sums up my last point quite well.

 

a) He's not entirely free

b) He's focused on more than one woman

 

It makes sense that you'd end up in FWB's with such guys rather than a relationship. You're selling yourself short verhrzn.

[ThsAmericanLife]

The thing is that I have an equal relationship and I am happy with it but I am one of the rare ones. I don't know why all women divorce but it seems that the more enlightened men who make an effort to be equal partners end up getting the most grief.

 

My father who was in his mid 20s around the time of the 70s women's movement pointed out once that the men who genuinely did try to have equal relationships with liberated women are all divorced right now while the men who just went and married stepford wives for most part had marriages that lasted. If he could do it again he would have married a woman like that.

 

I prefer an equal partnership but it seems rare to have one and sustain attraction on the woman's part.

 

Sorry... you've just been hanging out with the wrong crowd. Most of my married friends (except the religious ones) are partnered with their 'equals'.

 

You wanna know where the highest divorce rate is? The Deep South. Bible Belt. So much for 'traditional' values and so-called Stepford Wives.

[aj22one]

It's not just the sex, it's also the companionship and the sense that I am attractive.

 

You have to get that from yourself. Seriously, some guy (or guys) will pick up on that and take advantage. It's like blood in the water to a shark.

 

Like I said, I've been single for years without resorting to an FWB (this is the first and only time I've done it knowingly.) And it didn't pay off in any way. If anything, it made it worse, because then I looked desperate, which as we're told over and over on these forums is like anti-relationship venom.

 

So, now I'm no longer desperate and spending all my time consumed with thoughts of why I'm not good enough for all these "relationship-minded men" that seem to be littering the ground everywhere else. I still want a relationship, but I am no longer pathetic over not having one.

 

Isn't that actually going to make me more attractive in the long run, that I'm not latching onto the first guy that gives me a scrap of attention?

 

Being desperate has nothing to do with how many men are clamoring for your attention. I will give you the same advice I give to the guys on here: you have to have an internal sense of value. You must view yourself as attractive and worthy of someone else's time, love, and affection. That will make you more attractive in the long run.

[Woggle]

Sorry... you've just been hanging out with the wrong crowd. Most of my married friends (except the religious ones) are partnered with their 'equals'.

 

You wanna know where the highest divorce rate is? The Deep South. Bible Belt. So much for 'traditional' values and so-called Stepford Wives.

 

I agree on that last part. The Northeast by far has the lowest divorce rate in the nation.

[verhrzn]

This is actually quite funny, Verhzn.... Hilarious in fact.

 

You've simultaneously decided that people who CHOOSE not to have FWB while dating have no 'options'... and that ones who also make this choice have rigid morality, are possessive, hate sex... blah blah. Wow, your justifications never, ever stop.

 

I've turned down more offers in the past WEEK than you've probably had all year, sweetheart...

 

Why is that? Why do I have so many 'options' but turn them down? Do I have rigid morality? Do I hate sex? In your book, yea... In my book... I have the experience to know where these things end up if the man isn't 'free' and focused... But you choose to ignore this experience and the experience of others who have been down this path before so you can continue your current way of life.

 

And thanks for the insults. Not that it really bothers me. I really think it is quite funny.

 

Anyway, I'm done feeling sorry for your predicament... much as I'm done feeling sorry for men who engage in the same behavior here. It looks pretty much the same in my eyes...

 

Where did I say you hate sex? And perhaps "prospects" was the wrong word to use... I just couldn't think of a better one to try to conceptualize what you're saying, which is that you don't date around. Would it be more accurate to say you choose to have no other prospects, in that you want to focus on one dating partner at a time?

 

If I insulted you, I apologize, as it's more my intention to just to try to understand where you're coming from, but the concept is foreign to me and thus I'm not verbally capturing it well.

 

I'm well aware you've had more offers. That was my entire point... That I have an FWB because I have no other offers.

 

And perhaps that's why we come at the same problem from opposite angles. As you stated, you can pick and choose... Nexus said the same thing, that he purposefully chooses a girl. I do not choose. Nor am I chosen. So I take what I can get, and I cling to it, because it's all very well for the rich man to tell the poor man his luck will turn around, but that doesn't mean he has a feast in his future.

 

I did say possessive and insecure, because that's how it strikes me. Shouldn't I be offended that you claimed I have no character because I act single when I am single? Why is my judgment of the attitude (that even though we're not committed, I should be sexually exclusive to a guy/celibate) any worse than your judgment?

[Nexus One]

It's not just the sex, it's also the companionship and the sense that I am attractive.

 

If I'm not mistaking you once posted a photo of yourself on LS, correct? You were wearing some cosplay outfit, am I right? If that was indeed you, then you have nothing to worry about at all in the looks department. Several other male forum members stated the same to you back then if I remember correctly.

 

You seem to have a low opinion of yourself in terms of looks. I can tell you that that opinion is not justified.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Nexus One

[ThsAmericanLife]

I still want a relationship, but I am no longer pathetic over not having one.

 

Isn't that actually going to make me more attractive in the long run, that I'm not latching onto the first guy that gives me a scrap of attention?

 

Do I sound pathetic for not having a relationship? I have a life and developed hobbies and interests. I enjoy my friendships with both men and women.

 

I just told you that I'm batting men away... It isn't bragging. It is kind of sad. Most of these men are doing the 'expedient' thing by f-ing other women while pursuing me, doing the FWB thing, or are even married. Won't touch 'em with a 10 foot pole. For some reason, they think I should be flattered since they have a) looks b) money c) prestige and titles. Still won't touch 'em.

 

I'm quite happy knowing that when a truly available guy comes my way... I won't screw it up by having to do lots of 'splainin about my sexual situation. Nor will he look at me askance for having a full life in spite of not being in a relationship right now. Just the opposite in fact.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Where did I say you hate sex? And perhaps "prospects" was the wrong word to use... I just couldn't think of a better one to try to conceptualize what you're saying, which is that you don't date around. Would it be more accurate to say you choose to have no other prospects, in that you want to focus on one dating partner at a time?

 

If I insulted you, I apologize, as it's more my intention to just to try to understand where you're coming from, but the concept is foreign to me and thus I'm not verbally capturing it well.

 

I'm well aware you've had more offers. That was my entire point... That I have an FWB because I have no other offers.

 

And perhaps that's why we come at the same problem from opposite angles. As you stated, you can pick and choose... Nexus said the same thing, that he purposefully chooses a girl. I do not choose. Nor am I chosen. So I take what I can get, and I cling to it, because it's all very well for the rich man to tell the poor man his luck will turn around, but that doesn't mean he has a feast in his future.

 

I did say possessive and insecure, because that's how it strikes me. Shouldn't I be offended that you claimed I have no character because I act single when I am single? Why is my judgment of the attitude (that even though we're not committed, I should be sexually exclusive to a guy/celibate) any worse than your judgment?

 

You were posting while I was posting... so I'll try to respond.

 

Alright, if I used your logic. That I had no other 'options' and I should take what I can get, then I would be the OW about four times over right now. Wait. Five times. I recently turned down an 'opportunity' to be a FWB with a man I really like and thought had potential. The fact that he wanted a FWB was an insult to me, frankly. He isn't even a 'friend' anymore because he was using my friendship with him as leverage to get FWB from other women and make it look like he was super sought after. Done.

 

But back to you... If you have a FWB, you aren't 'single' to many, many men. That is all we are trying to say.

 

And yes, I do think it is a matter of convenience that you choose to keep your sex life to yourself when accepting a date. If it wasn't about character, why not just put your cards on the table within the first few dates? If his values really are similar to yours, then no harm is done.

[verhrzn]

Do I sound pathetic for not having a relationship? I have a life and developed hobbies and interests. I enjoy my friendships with both men and women.

 

I just told you that I'm batting men away... It isn't bragging. It is kind of sad. Most of these men are doing the 'expedient' thing by f-ing other women while pursuing me, doing the FWB thing, or are even married. Won't touch 'em with a 10 foot pole. For some reason, they think I should be flattered since they have a) looks b) money c) prestige and titles. Still won't touch 'em.

 

I'm quite happy knowing that when a truly available guy comes my way... I won't screw it up by having to do lots of 'splainin about my sexual situation. Nor will he look at me askance for having a full life in spite of not being in a relationship right now. Just the opposite in fact.

 

I'm not pathetic for not having a relationship, I'm pathetic for wanting one so badly.

 

I have hobbies and friends, but it doesn't make a dent. I volunteer, I work out, I jam-pack my schedule with classes and activities, and yet at the end of the day I come home to an empty apartment, and I'm sad, and I'm lonely, and I'm tired of BEING sad and lonely.

 

And if a guy comes along and looks askew at me for making myself happy before I was even aware of his existence, at the expense of no one else, then is he really worth it?

[verhrzn]

You were posting while I was posting... so I'll try to respond.

 

Alright, if I used your logic. That I had no other 'options' and I should take what I can get, then I would be the OW about four times over right now. Wait. Five times. I recently turned down an 'opportunity' to be a FWB with a man I really like and thought had potential. The fact that he wanted a FWB was an insult to me, frankly. He isn't even a 'friend' anymore because he was using my friendship with him as leverage to get FWB from other women and make it look like he was super sought after. Done.

 

But back to you... If you have a FWB, you aren't 'single' to many, many men. That is all we are trying to say.

 

And yes, I do think it is a matter of convenience that you choose to keep your sex life to yourself when accepting a date. If it wasn't about character, why not just put your cards on the table within the first few dates? If his values really are similar to yours, then no harm is done.

 

That isn't my logic, my logic is that you don't NEED to. Even if you didn't have "options," you have a lifelong experience of knowing there's another one around the corner somewhere. I don't. Your years of experience are nice, but only if we're in similar situations, which we're not.

 

As far as me keeping my sex life to myself, it's again a moot point as I haven't BEEN asked out on a date in at least a year. And no where did I say I would hide my cards. If a guy asked, I'd tell him. If he didn't ask, I'd assume he doesn't want to know. If he never asks, how can I know he wants to know... I'm not a mind-reader, and I wouldn't go volunteering the information because even for guys who are cool with it in theory may be uncomfortable hearing about it. I would be, as it'd seem out of left field if I hadn't asked.

[thatone]

I'm not pathetic for not having a relationship, I'm pathetic for wanting one so badly.

 

I have hobbies and friends, but it doesn't make a dent. I volunteer, I work out, I jam-pack my schedule with classes and activities, and yet at the end of the day I come home to an empty apartment, and I'm sad, and I'm lonely, and I'm tired of BEING sad and lonely.

 

And if a guy comes along and looks askew at me for making myself happy before I was even aware of his existence, at the expense of no one else, then is he really worth it?

 

 

you have multiple people telling you that if most people knew you were sleeping with someone else they would not date you. men and women both. is that not evidence enough that a significant portion of the dating population is not ok with your situation, and you are therefore limiting your prospects by doing so?

[Sanman]

Being desperate has nothing to do with how many men are clamoring for your attention. I will give you the same advice I give to the guys on here: you have to have an internal sense of value. You must view yourself as attractive and worthy of someone else's time, love, and affection. That will make you more attractive in the long run.

 

 

I agree with what the others here are saying. You clearly have a low opinion of yourself given the fact that you have repeatedly mentioned that you are not good looking and doubt whether you are worthy of a relationship. It is clear that a large part of the problem is that you use sex not just as intimacy, but as a way to feel like an attractive and worthwhile person.

 

As for the fwb, multi-dating stuff, I will say that I stopped all of that in my life and finally found a woman worth being in a relationship when changed my ways. I was never all that comfortable that stuff anyway. I am in no way conservative, but I see it this way. When I was dating many people and had fwb, I found it really difficult to nurture a connection. You are supposed to be excited to see the other person and not feel conflicted. Additionally, I asked myself with question... If this is my future wife sitting across the table, how do I want to look back and remember the start of this relationship? Do I want it to be that I was sleeping with someone else without her knowledge when I met her? That I met three other women in the same week and can't remember what she said to me? No, when I started my current relationship nether I or my gf was seeing anyone else. I like that about us. I also don't feel disposable to her and I know she ins't disposable to me. Something to consider...

[verhrzn]

you have multiple people telling you that if most people knew you were sleeping with someone else they would not date you. men and women both. is that not evidence enough that a significant portion of the dating population is not ok with your situation, and you are therefore limiting your prospects by doing so?

 

Except as I said, I've done what they're suggesting (this is my first time having an FWB), and it didn't make any difference. So if we're doing the whole costs/benefits analysis, giving up the FWB doesn't really gain me anything, because people didn't want to date me either way, but it DOES lose me the few things I AM getting from an FWB.

[thatone]

Do I want it to be that I was sleeping with someone else without her knowledge when I met her? That I met three other women in the same week and can't remember what she said to me? No, when I started my current relationship nether I or my gf was seeing anyone else. I like that about us. I also don't feel disposable to her and I know she ins't disposable to me. Something to consider...

 

that's it precisely. my gf and i are the same way. when we're not together she's with her family, or home. when i'm not with her i'm with my family, or home. there's nothing to worry about, nothing to second guess or prejudge.

 

look at all of the threads on this forum verhrzn. 90+% of them are about people who won't, can't, or don't say what they really think or have bfs/gfs that won't, can't, or don't say what they really think. that's the very first thing that will kill any relationship, dishonesty or distrust. and your situation is inherently dishonest, because, as we're telling you, no one is going to date you knowing that you're having sex with someone else.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Even if you didn't have "options," you have a lifelong experience of knowing there's another one around the corner somewhere. I don't. Your years of experience are nice, but only if we're in similar situations, which we're not.

 

Our situations aren't so different. I don't know for a FACT that another one is around the corner. Not at all. I'm lonely too. And kind of laugh at myself about my dog buddy being the only one in my bed these days no noo... It's ok to love your pets... just not LUV your pets. ha ha.

 

I do know for a FACT that being unfocused and shortchanging myself with someone who can't give me his full attention is creating a habit I really can't afford. Sure, I could choose to numb myself emotionally. Go for F-buddy status and turn myself off to real intimacy. Settle for being a FWB.

 

It isn't clear to me how being or having a FWB makes anyone feel valued. I just don't get it.

[OnyxSnowfall]

I feel like I'm the only one who remotely GRASPS that the OP is RESORTING TO A FWB.

 

THAT EVEN PRIOR TO THE FWB SHE HASN'T BEEN ASKED OUT ON REAL AND PLENTIFUL DATES ---

 

I.E

 

THE FWB IS NOT WHY SHE IS NOT GETTING DATES!!!

 

And of the COUPLE of the very CONFUSING "outings" she went on --- THE GUYS didn't KNOW she had a FWB --- hence, they didn't JUDGE her about what they didn't know... HENCE... it's NOT 'CAUSE OF THE FWB they didn't want to pursue her further.

 

OTHER GUYS DON'T KNOW IF SHE HAS A FWB BEFORE PURSUING HER EITHER. WHY AREN'T THEY AT LEAST MAKING EFFORT TO FIND OUT?

 

Yes she could continue waiting around by her lonesome... but something else needs to be done in the meantime, if she's going to find a respectable man to have a relationship with... and it may need to be about her working on her self-perception. Maybe she just needs to get angry at what most men seem to want and say screw them for awhile, they don't deserve me and then pamper herself and love herself instead.

 

It's easy to tell someone "just deal with it and work on yourself"... but when someone is actually in the throes of loneliness / faced with their romantic solitude etc, that's a whole 'nother story.

 

verhrzn - many men like "feminine". I think I read somewhere in the back that you stated you're not really domestic etc (some men don't care about that though too). Regardless, it's at least intoxicating to some of them. It may be worth working on, if you don't mind striving to attract men for the sake of attracting more of them.

 

(by the way, I had one too many glasses of wine so I'm not taking responsibility for any errors / retardation I may have blathered).

[somedude81]

I haven't BEEN asked out on a date in at least a year.

And we're back to this point again.

 

You seem to have very rigid views on what constitutes a date, what is being asked out and what they are not. All this is playing into your belief that you are undesirable. Because you tell yourself, "oh that wasn't a date because X happened or didn't happen, so I haven't been on a date in a year, I have no options."

 

it's NOT 'CAUSE OF THE FWB they didn't want to pursue her further.

No, it's not that they didn't pursue her further, it's that she stopped responding to them and disappeared.

[OnyxSnowfall]

No, it's not that they didn't pursue her further, it's that she stopped responding to them and disappeared.

 

Because she has experience in knowing it doesn't otherwise go anywhere?

 

Unless she develops a safeguard against emotionally investing into people that will not reciprocate... then I am not sure the risk is worth the "reward"...

 

It could be. Perhaps she just needs to learn to overcome potential rejection. And if some jerk tries to tell her it has to do with her looks, then she would do well to dust their comments off and grin knowing that she's worth far more,

 

because such men are blatantly not worth heeding in the first place.

[Titania22]

I am starting to find this whole thread quite depressing.

 

It would be great if it were true.

 

"just don't have sex with anyone for x period of time and a man will turn up who is actually interested."

 

I just don't buy it.

 

It's like when a male friend said. "it's because you don't have a job, get a job and then men will want you."

 

It was just after i quit a job, no man had showed me the slightest bit of attention while i had the job, so I don't get how that one is supposed to work.

 

The thing is you can always come up with an excuse why someone is getting passed over, but even you changed all the things that could reasonably be changed (no such thing as the fountain of youth yet), I don't think there is any guarantee it will work, especially if the individual changed was made miserable by the process.

 

And I get the whole be happy in yourself and by yourself thing, I really do. But the two things that relationships have over being single is "sex" and "someone to help carry the load when you get sick".

 

I get it verhrzn and onyx, I really do.

[Nexus One]

I feel like I'm the only one who remotely GRASPS that the OP is RESORTING TO A FWB.

 

THAT EVEN PRIOR TO THE FWB SHE HASN'T BEEN ASKED OUT ON REAL AND PLENTIFUL DATES ---

 

I.E

 

THE FWB IS NOT WHY SHE IS NOT GETTING DATES!!!

 

And of the COUPLE of the very CONFUSING "outings" she went on --- THE GUYS didn't KNOW she had a FWB --- hence, they didn't JUDGE her about what they didn't know... HENCE... it's NOT 'CAUSE OF THE FWB they didn't want to pursue her further.

 

OTHER GUYS DON'T KNOW IF SHE HAS A FWB BEFORE PURSUING HER EITHER. WHY AREN'T THEY AT LEAST MAKING EFFORT TO FIND OUT?

 

Yes she could continue waiting around by her lonesome... but something else needs to be done in the meantime, if she's going to find a respectable man to have a relationship with... and it may need to be about her working on her self-perception. Maybe she just needs to get angry at what most men seem to want and say screw them for awhile, they don't deserve me and then pamper herself and love herself instead.

 

It's easy to tell someone "just deal with it and work on yourself"... but when someone is actually in the throes of loneliness / faced with their romantic solitude etc, that's a whole 'nother story.

 

verhrzn - many men like "feminine". I think I read somewhere in the back that you stated you're not really domestic etc (some men don't care about that though too). Regardless, it's at least intoxicating to some of them. It may be worth working on, if you don't mind striving to attract men for the sake of attracting more of them.

 

(by the way, I had one too many glasses of wine so I'm not taking responsibility for any errors / retardation I may have blathered).

 

Whether you understand her or not, whether the guys know about her FWB's or not, that doesn't ethically justify it. And that's why I think our ethical systems are different.

 

You justify something that is ethically wrong, while I do not justify it.

 

And that being said. Since she says guys can be involved with other women when she dates them, do you find it surprising she ends up in FWB's rather than relationships? I don't. Her tending to attract FWB oriented guys is possibly a consequence of allowing those guys to be involved with other women from the get-go. And then she says: "I tell him I'd rather not hear about it when he had sex with other women". She's shooting herself in the foot and you're enabling her by saying you don't see an issue with it.

[Nexus One]

I am starting to find this whole thread quite depressing.

 

It would be great if it were true.

 

"just don't have sex with anyone for x period of time and a man will turn up who is actually interested."

 

I just don't buy it.

 

It's like when a male friend said. "it's because you don't have a job, get a job and then men will want you."

 

It was just after i quit a job, no man had showed me the slightest bit of attention while i had the job, so I don't get how that one is supposed to work.

 

The thing is you can always come up with an excuse why someone is getting passed over, but even you changed all the things that could reasonably be changed (no such thing as the fountain of youth yet), I don't think there is any guarantee it will work, especially if the individual changed was made miserable by the process.

 

And I get the whole be happy in yourself and by yourself thing, I really do. But the two things that relationships have over being single is "sex" and "someone to help carry the load when you get sick".

 

I get it verhrzn and onyx, I really do.

 

That you don't buy it a that a guy doesn't "show up" to sweep you off your feet, that doesn't justify this whole thing ethically.

 

I get it verhrzn and onyx, I really do.

 

Like I said to Onyx, you can get it, but that still doesn't justify it. It does not change the ethical basis.

 

Besides, what is so hard to understand about that a relationship oriented guy doesn't want to even date a woman who's already involved with another man?

 

I really don't know what f*cking planet you people are living on. I really don't.

 

I know where this stems from. It stems from valuing sex over ethics, respect, loyalty and decency. Women who justify this only care about THEIR feelings and THEIR needs.

 

Like I said. I don't personally use arguments like "I have needs" or "I am lonely" to throw my ethics in the trashcan. You women are looking at this only from your own perspective. To illustrate the point. Following the logic of you women someone is justified to rob another person because "they need money". And yeah you can understand that need for money, but that doesn't justify robbing the person.

 

It's an egoistic attitude.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Nexus One

[Titania22]

Besides, what is so hard to understand about that a relationship oriented guy doesn't want to even date a woman who's already involved with another man?

 

And what is so hard to understand, that just because a woman isn't involved with a man, doesn't mean a relationship oriented guy is going to be interested in her.

 

The question is, at what point is it acceptable to give up the dream of a relationship, and just accept what you can get?

 

Disclaimer: I get your point Nexus One, and I don't sleep around myself. But I am wondering about these things. The idea that I will never ever have sex again is very upsetting to me. So I can really sympathize that verhrzn has made the choice she has. And I wonder what choice I would be willing to make when I become desperate enough.