"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[Woggle]

It is hard for anyone to find a healthy relationship where both are appreciated for their God given talents... whatever they happen to be.

 

I'd like you though Woggle, and other well-meaning gents, to quit saying 'women' this and 'women' that... and in the same breath... barking about 'man-haters'.

 

For the record, please observe that I was 'cheated on'... and also given the bait and switch in my former marriage.

 

Do you see me drafting threads constantly saying "why do all men cheat?" or... "Why can't men live up to their promises?"

 

No, I don't do that. Waste of time.... because I know damn well I had something to do with picking him. You picked yours. There are other women here who have had it worse than me... and aren't going on tirades either.

 

My ex was one person. Your ex-wife was ONE person. The fact that you picked better this time... good for you! Now just enjoy it and stop living in your past already...

 

You are right. There certainly are women who don't fit the stereotype but there are trends that can't be ignored.

[ThsAmericanLife]

In my world, I guess I don't consider being respectful (Carhill) and helpful (Thatone) to be either 'leading' or 'taking control'.

 

To the extent that when men practice good behavior they are considered 'leaders' and women... what are they? Not leaders? Whatever.

 

I get really tired of the labels and such that some men need to place on their actions to feel 'one over' the women in their lives. Its as if, you can't feel like a man unless you are 'leading' or 'controlling' and she is following. Or you 'grant' her the right to um, 'lead' in an area that women are, well, granted. Like the 'emotional' sphere.. Jeez Louis...

 

... and in my world, I don't use those terms... and I wouldn't be in a relationship framed in those terms either. Both help. Both 'lead'. Who cares...

[ThsAmericanLife]

...but there are trends that can't be ignored.

 

Sure they can. I do it everyday. Ignore trends that don't suit my life or serve any purpose....

[Feelsgoodman]

I see that as well. I know men who act like the old school king of the castle and what they say goes yet they are treated like kings yet the men who truly do listen to their wives and try hard to be equal partners get crapped on. I don't know why that is.

It's actually very simple. A girl once told me that women ultimately want to be treated...like children. That girl is a foreigner, and you wouldn't expect to hear something so frank form a western woman, but her statement strikes me as fundamentally true.

 

It explains why women like men who are strong, decisive, take the initiative, etc. In every woman, no matter how "independent", hides a little girl that wants to be taken by the hand and guided through confusing and scary world...women call this "security" (and yes, I realize that I'm not winning any points with LS resident feminists with this statement...)

[ThsAmericanLife]

It's actually very simple. A girl once told me that women ultimately want to be treated...like children. That girl is a foreigner, and you wouldn't expect to hear something so frank form a western woman, but her statement strikes me as fundamentally true.

 

It explains why women like men who are strong, decisive, take the initiative, etc. In every woman, no matter how "independent", hides a little girl that wants to be taken by the hand and guided through confusing and scary world...women call this "security" (and yes, I realize that I'm not winning any points with LS resident feminists with this statement...)

 

There is a place for men who share your philosophy. It is called 'Taken in Hand'. Check it out. Might work for you.

 

None of my happily married female friends act like this.

 

And as far as the "King of the Castle" syndrome... I think the guys here are focusing on the kind of relationships they WANT and justifying it... not necessarily reality either.

[carhill]

When married, I tended to look at the dynamic of synergistic leadership; recognizing each others strengths and respecting them for the good and success of the team. The example I gave was indicative of that. I had the experience, expertise and success in that one area so it was natural that I lead. OTOH, my exW was a gifted natural designer, so I respected and relied on her for input and decision on color, texture, design and implementation of how we would furnish and decorate the home I expertly chose. To me, this is how a team operates, playing to the strengths of the team members for the overall success of of the team. I saw it in action growing up and saw how healthy the environment was that such a system created. I certainly don't want a 'team' where I'm relegated to the garage or basement while the woman 'owns' the house. That ain't never gonna happen in my natural life.

[Nexus One]

I'm just going to dish it out.

 

verhrzn doesn't get some basic concepts when it comes to love between a man and a woman. And she'll keep working against herself until she does.

 

She dates men of which she knows they are relationship oriented, but keeps sleeping around with other men while she dates them.

 

1. Her focus is off. She's not focused 100% on getting into a real relationship.

2. She hopes her FWB will turn into something.

3. She sabotages the potential with the FWB by dating other guys, while at the same time f*cking her FWB while dating relationship oriented guys.

4. She's disrespectful to her dates when she does that.

5. She acts indecent, she values sex above loyalty and values sex above focusing on finding the love of her life.

6. She acts egoistic in the sense that she only thinks about her own needs and wants instead of that of her dates.

7. She looks down on a guy when he crushes on her personality. (such a huuuge mistake)

 

And then she wonders why she hasn't been able to get into a relationship and posts on LS asking herself what could be the problem.

 

Really verhrzn? Really?

 

I genuinely wanted to help you out, but no longer. I thought you were some geeky girl having a hard time getting a boyfriend. But you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

 

You'd date your potential future husband and f*ck other men while you're dating him. Mark my words, you will not care that you're going to do that, but if he ever finds out, he will care. Then you can cry him a river here on LS once he's gone.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Nexus One

[verhrzn]

I'm just going to dish it out.

 

verhrzn doesn't get some basic concepts when it comes to love between a man and a woman. And she'll keep working against herself until she does.

 

She dates men of which she knows they are relationship oriented, but keeps sleeping around with other men while she dates them.

 

1. Her focus is off. She's not focused 100% on getting into a real relationship.

2. She hopes her FWB will turn into something.

3. She sabotages the potential with the FWB by dating other guys, while at the same time f*cking her FWB while dating relationship oriented guys.

4. She's disrespectful to her dates when she does that.

5. She acts indecent, she values sex above loyalty and values sex above focusing on finding the love of her life.

6. She acts egoistic in the sense that she only thinks about her own needs and wants instead of that of her dates.

7. She looks down on a guy when he crushes on her personality. (such a huuuge mistake)

 

And then she wonders why she hasn't been able to get into a relationship and posts on LS asking herself what could be the problem.

 

Really verhrzn? Really?

 

I genuinely wanted to help you out, but no longer. I thought you were some geeky girl having a hard time getting a boyfriend. But you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

 

You'd date your potential future husband and f*ck other men while you're dating him. Mark my words, you will not care that you're going to do that, but if he ever finds out, he will care. Then you can cry him a river here on LS once he's gone.

 

Yes yes, you think I'm a manipulative whore, and since it wasn't enough to say it in a PM, you decided you'd share with the whole thread as well. Are we happy now?

[Nexus One]

Yes yes, you think I'm a manipulative whore, and since it wasn't enough to say it in a PM, you decided you'd share with the whole thread as well. Are we happy now?

 

I never said you were a manipulative whore. I never used the word whore. I said that some things you said made me suspect you were manipulative. And you saying that I called you a whore does kind of seems to support that theory don't you think?

 

I never mentioned our PM conversation here. Everything I said can be found in this thread. I just listed things comprehensively that have already been said in this thread, because the majority didn't see what your were doing, only a fraction of posters commented on some of those things.

 

You yourself are the first one to mention that PM exchange. I never did, because I respected your privacy, so I kept things limited to what you already said in this thread.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Nexus One

[verhrzn]

She dates men of which she knows they are relationship oriented, but keeps sleeping around with other men while she dates them.

 

She sabotages the potential with the FWB by dating other guys, while at the same time f*cking her FWB while dating relationship oriented guys.

She's disrespectful to her dates when she does that.

She acts indecent, she values sex above loyalty and values sex above focusing on finding the love of her life.

 

I was being flippant about you calling me a whore because it's true, you don't call me a whore... directly. You just say I **** other guys while I'm dating someone else (ignoring our WHOLE PM conversation in which I tried to get you to qualify what exactly you mean by "dating" and "relationship oriented") which is usually considered whoreish. You say I value sex above other values (like loyalty... to the near stranger who asked me out for coffee that one time), that I act indecent, and that I'm disrespectful. You really think calling me disloyal, having no respect for men, valuing sex above everything else, and "f*cking around on guys" isn't calling me a whore? And you said I'm the manipulative one?

 

I brought up the PM conversation because you essentially copied and pasted your last message, ignoring the context of my responses to your previously stated questions, none of which appear in the thread. (For example, when I asked you, several times, why exactly a guy gets rights to tell me who I get to sleep with when he is not in a committed relationship with me.)

 

Additionally, it's completely out of left field. The thread has moved 5 or 6 pages beyond that. So why the need to "dish it out"?

[Nexus One]

I was being flippant about you calling me a whore because it's true, you don't call me a whore... directly. You just say I **** other guys while I'm dating someone else (ignoring our WHOLE PM conversation in which I tried to get you to qualify what exactly you mean by "dating" and "relationship oriented") which is usually considered whoreish. You say I value sex above other values (like loyalty... to the near stranger who asked me out for coffee that one time), that I act indecent, and that I'm disrespectful. You really think calling me disloyal, having no respect for men, valuing sex above everything else, and "f*cking around on guys" isn't calling me a whore? And you said I'm the manipulative one?

 

That's your interpretation. Just because I'm listing the arguments of why I think what you're doing is unethical, doesn't mean I think you're a whore.

 

I'll tell you what I did think at some point though. After you ignored nearly all the arguments I listed, and those were A LOT of arguments in some very lengthy replies to your PM's, about why I thought you were going to hurt a guy by doing what you do, I started to think you were a sociopath. But just on this issue, not on other things.

 

A sociopath is basically someone who is capable of hurting others, while at the same time not being able to register that he/she is actually inflicting any hurting.

So they keep doing it over and over again.

 

But then you said, you don't tell the guys you're dating that you sleep with other guys while you date them. So that then made me think you DID know what you were doing, but you just chose to obscure it to the guys you were dating, because you'd know what the consequences would be.

 

 

I brought up the PM conversation because you essentially copied and pasted your last message,

 

That is such bullsh*t. Everything I listed can be found in this thread. That I had similar points in my PM is to be expected. But I didn't copy and paste anything. I could do that to make my point, but like I said, I actually value your privacy. You brought it up yourself, yet you're now trying to shift the blame for it onto me. How again does that not support my theory that you on some points seem to be manipulative.

 

ignoring the context of my responses to your previously stated questions, none of which appear in the thread. (For example, when I asked you, several times, why exactly a guy gets rights to tell me who I get to sleep with when he is not in a committed relationship with me.)

 

I did answer that, but you were the one who ignored the answer.

 

I said and I quote now directly from the PM, because you specifically press on this point:

 

Of course a guy doesn't get to dictate unilaterally that you both are immediately in a relationship when you start dating. That would be ridiculous. (And you know that's not the point I was trying to make. You're playing dumb on that point in my opinion.)

 

YOU said yourself that you were looking to date relationship oriented guys next to your FWB. Those are your words, not mine. You said it both in PM and on the forum.

 

Most dating profiles show what a person is looking for. I might not have actively online dated, but I have created test profiles on some of the largest dating websites and they ask you to meticulously fill out what you're looking for. (questionnaires)

 

...

 

So you're f*cking bullsh*tting here about how things are not clear and how a guy supposedly tries to dictate your sexual life. No verhrzn, you go on dates with guys you think that want a relationship, yet you keep f*cking your FWB anyway. So you do purposefully disrespect the guys you date. That's one point. And you know that your potential future boyfriend/husband can be one of those guys. That's why you date them. So disloyalty is a second point.

 

There.

 

Additionally, it's completely out of left field. The thread has moved 5 or 6 pages beyond that. So why the need to "dish it out"?

 

Like I said, only a fraction of the posters in this thread pressed on the points I listed. The majority kept assuming you were this helpless geeky girl that has a hard time getting a boyfriend, just like I did initially. So they tailor their answers to that perception of you, just like I did initially.

 

So that's why nobody, not the majority of posters and thus not you are getting anywhere. And that's why I listed those things comprehensively on the previous page.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Nexus One

[Disillusioned]

I know what I want. I've known what I want since I was a teenager, and what I want hasn't changed.

 

Men who don't know what they want, are more likely to be players and PUAs. They might even play the whole field and still not make up their minds what they want.

 

Men who DO know what they want are more likely to be keepers, but they're only compatible with women who have what's on these guys' laundry lists, and you'll likely have to do some breaking through when you find one.

 

I hate to rain on your picnic, but that's the way the singles world is looking more and more. The internet made some of the old rules obsolete. Jerks will always pick women, but women will have to take the lead to pick the decent guys.

 

Is it worth it? I can't answer that for you. It's totally against our natural wiring, but hey, I didn't invent the internet, and I didn't invent dating.

[OnyxSnowfall]

I'm just going to dish it out.

 

verhrzn doesn't get some basic concepts when it comes to love between a man and a woman. And she'll keep working against herself until she does.

 

She dates men of which she knows they are relationship oriented, but keeps sleeping around with other men while she dates them.

 

1. Her focus is off. She's not focused 100% on getting into a real relationship.

2. She hopes her FWB will turn into something.

3. She sabotages the potential with the FWB by dating other guys, while at the same time f*cking her FWB while dating relationship oriented guys.

4. She's disrespectful to her dates when she does that.

5. She acts indecent, she values sex above loyalty and values sex above focusing on finding the love of her life.

6. She acts egoistic in the sense that she only thinks about her own needs and wants instead of that of her dates.

7. She looks down on a guy when he crushes on her personality. (such a huuuge mistake)

 

And then she wonders why she hasn't been able to get into a relationship and posts on LS asking herself what could be the problem.

 

Really verhrzn? Really?

 

I genuinely wanted to help you out, but no longer. I thought you were some geeky girl having a hard time getting a boyfriend. But you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

 

You'd date your potential future husband and f*ck other men while you're dating him. Mark my words, you will not care that you're going to do that, but if he ever finds out, he will care. Then you can cry him a river here on LS once he's gone.

 

You're really exaggerating this Nexus.

 

I do agree that she'd probably be happier if she overcame the desire for her body to be passionately lusted for as opposed to her personality.

 

But it hardly sounds like she's sleeping around with tons of men. Also, the "dates" she's been describing do not even sound like dates --- but potentially platonic outings. It's NONE of those guy's business who she's sleeping with anyway... they've never agreed to anything exclusive. IF she found someone she saw as a potential long-term romantic prospect and slept with them, as well as her FWB again --- and the former was completely unaware --- that would be one thing...

 

Not to mention that you have no idea if she's considering the needs of the men she's been going out with and or the needs of her FWB... if she's paying for things, listening to them etc --- how is that using them and being inconsiderate of them?

 

But seriously... "dating" people you're not even having sex with, and having one FWB... ... . is not the issue.

 

People get into relationships all the time, ones that last probably longer than they should, while sleeping with all kinds of other people (even simultaneously).

Edited September 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

[thatone]

Whatever works for you. I'm saying it isn't gender specific.

 

People like to come up with these 'rules' rather than just realize that everyone is an individual.

 

that completely depends on the people involved.

 

the vast majority of women are more emotional than rational.

 

the vast majority of men are more rational than emotional.

 

can the opposites be true? sure. but most of the time that's how it is.

 

and there's nothing inherently right or wrong about either. both have their time and place. only when people don't accept, see, or appreciate what their S/O is are there insurmountable problems. 'is' bolded because people so often see what they want, and not reality.

[Nexus One]

But it hardly sounds like she's sleeping around with tons of men.

 

As if it matter with how many men she sleeps when she dates a relationship oriented guy. Whether it's one or five, it doesn't change the principle.

 

 

Also, the "dates" she's been describing do not sound even like dates --- but potentially platonic outings. It's NONE of those guy's business who she's sleeping with anyway... they've never agreed to anything exclusive. IF she found someone she saw as a potential long-term romantic prospect and slept with them, as well as her FWB again --- and the former was completely unaware --- that would be one thing...

 

I already answered that in my previous reply. (the PM part)

 

Not to mention that you have no idea if she's considering the needs of the men she's been going out with and or the needs of her FWB... if she's paying for things, listening to them etc --- how is that using them and being inconsiderate of them?

 

From her replies I gathered she doesn't give a damn.

 

People get into relationship all the time, ones that last probably longer than they should, while sleeping with all kinds of other people (even simultaneously).

 

So that lots of other people cheat, that justifies it for anyone else? Is that what you're saying? Because I don't know how else to interpret what you said there.

 

Let me ask you a question Onyx. Have you done similar things? Not that it's any of my business, but the way you're replying is so similar to what all the women who are doing this have said. That makes me think you're biased, because you've done/do such things yourself and thus you try to downplay it as if I'm exaggerating and that "it's not an issue" and that "lots of people do it too".

[verhrzn]

I'll tell you what I did think at some point though. After you ignored nearly all the arguments I listed, and those were A LOT of arguments in some very lengthy replies to your PM's, about why I thought you were going to hurt a guy by doing what you do, I started to think you were a sociopath. But just on this issue, not on other things.

 

A sociopath is basically someone who is capable of hurting others, while at the same time not being able to register that he/she is actually inflicting any hurting.

So they keep doing it over and over again.

 

But then you said, you don't tell the guys you're dating that you sleep with other guys while you date them. So that then made me think you DID know what you were doing, but you just chose to obscure it to the guys you were dating, because you'd know what the consequences would be.

 

I did answer that, but you were the one who ignored the answer.

 

I didn't ignore it, that's just a BS-answer. I asked "What qualifies as dating?" "What qualifies as 'relationship-oriented?" Your answer was "Of course a guy doesn't get to dictate unilaterally that you both are immediately in a relationship when you start dating. That would be ridiculous."

 

Except, me being sexually exclusive to that single guy without discussing it with me first, and just assuming we're committed, is exactly what they call dictating unilaterally.

 

And no where do you say what your definition of "dating" is. Me and a guy get coffee... is that considered "dating"? Me and a guy to a movie, where he talks constantly about other girls and we individually pay for our own dinner and tickets, is THAT dating? What the heck IS dating to you?

 

And yeah, websites have places where you can list that you want a relationship. That's beside the point. It doesn't mean you want a relationship with every person you run across. It doesn't mean the guy wants a relationship with me.

 

The real kicker to all of this is that all of your rules and ways I'm screwing things up complete ignore the reality that I'm not going on any dates. There is not a single guy in the whole time I've had an FWB (my first and only, btw, of two months) that has asked me out on a date. I've stated that several times in this thread alone... that guys don't seem to want a relationship with me. WHICH IS WHY I GOT AN FWB.

 

So all of this is pure hyperbole and make-believe on your part. About how I'm disrespecting guys' feelings (imaginary guys), how I'm disloyal (to people I'm not in any kind of relationship with), and even now, that I'm a sociopath???

 

You are basing ALL of these assumptions about me on nothing but speculation about how I might act, in some imaginary world where guys want to date me.

 

You talk about ethics, but then come on here and call me manipulative and socipathic (in one area, you're so generous to explain... how the heck can someone be a socipath in one area?) about things that I haven't even done.

[OnyxSnowfall]

So that lots of other people cheat, that justifies it for anyone else? Is that what you're saying? Because I don't know how else to interpret what you said there.

 

I mean to state that the reason she isn't finding herself in a relationship is not because she's "dating" people / interested in dating them while having a FWB. I'm not even necessarily referring to cheating --- "open" relationships apply. There's a lot more to a relationship than the sexual dynamics of one...

 

Let me ask you a question Onyx. Have you done similar things? Not that it's any of my business, but the way you're replying is so similar to what all the women who are doing this have said. That makes me think you're biased, because you've done/do such things yourself and thus you try to downplay it as if I'm exaggerating and that "it's not an issue" and that "lots of people do it too".

 

I do not personally multi-date / have FWB. Granted, when I was teenager, I had a couple FWB and discovered that such set-ups were not to my personal liking. The same goes for ONS --- I find sex while in an exclusive relationship with someone I love to be the most fulfilling and I haven't had sex with anyone outside of an exclusive relationship (I won't have sex with someone until I can believe we both love one another) for most of my (consensual) sexually active life.

 

I rather value monogamy to extreme degrees --- my own romantic ideals are generally scoffed at by most people. I don't expect others to appreciate them / find them to their liking. I realize there's all kinds of people. What works for many cannot work for me and vice versa.

 

I still draw a general line in regards to what I find ethical / moral within my own self and from what I can see of others, but even those can curve here and there depending upon details. Your assertions that she's lacking there is more concerning to me than what your assertions are, in regards to what she's posted...

Edited September 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

[Nexus One]

I didn't ignore it, that's just a BS-answer. I asked "What qualifies as dating?" "What qualifies as 'relationship-oriented?" Your answer was "Of course a guy doesn't get to dictate unilaterally that you both are immediately in a relationship when you start dating. That would be ridiculous."

 

Except, me being sexually exclusive to that single guy without discussing it with me first, and just assuming we're committed, is exactly what they call dictating unilaterally.

 

And no where do you say what your definition of "dating" is. Me and a guy get coffee... is that considered "dating"? Me and a guy to a movie, where he talks constantly about other girls and we individually pay for our own dinner and tickets, is THAT dating? What the heck IS dating to you?

 

I'd say it's pretty f*cking obvious that when you go to an online dating website and plan a date with a guy through that website, that you then are dating. Doesn't matter if it's just coffee or a movie. When I would sign up on an online dating website and I meet a girl/woman through that website, then I assume it's a date. How can there be any confusion about that?

 

And yeah, websites have places where you can list that you want a relationship. That's beside the point. It doesn't mean you want a relationship with every person you run across.

 

Again, you're just viewing this from your side, not the side of your date.

 

It doesn't mean the guy wants a relationship with me.

 

No, but that's besides the point, because you can never know that in the very beginning of the date. Like I said so many times before. It's not about what he wants. It's about your own behavior and how you relate to your dates.

 

It's so simple. You can just isolate the time period where you're dating for a relationship and then simply don't f*ck any guys during that time period. That way you solve the entire ethical issue. But lots of girls/women(and men) refuse this and they refuse it because the choose sex over respect and loyalty and decency.

 

The real kicker to all of this is that all of your rules and ways I'm screwing things up complete ignore the reality that I'm not going on any dates. There is not a single guy in the whole time I've had an FWB (my first and only, btw, of two months) that has asked me out on a date. I've stated that several times in this thread alone... that guys don't seem to want a relationship with me. WHICH IS WHY I GOT AN FWB.

 

You said you were dating for a relationship next to your FWB situation. You said so in this thread yourself. And suddenly you aren't?

 

Let me qoute you:

 

So several posters (NexusOne, This American Life) argue that instead of wasting my time on an FWB I should be looking for "relationship-minded" men.

 

My question is, what makes you assume I'm not? I'm still going out, I'm still looking online and open to the idea of meeting someone.

 

Your words verhrzn.

 

So all of this is pure hyperbole and make-believe on your part. About how I'm disrespecting guys' feelings (imaginary guys), how I'm disloyal (to people I'm not in any kind of relationship with), and even now, that I'm a sociopath???

 

You are basing ALL of these assumptions about me on nothing but speculation about how I might act, in some imaginary world where guys want to date me.

 

You talk about ethics, but then come on here and call me manipulative and socipathic (in one area, you're so generous to explain... how the heck can someone be a socipath in one area?) about things that I haven't even done.

 

Yeah play that game. I'll quote you again:

 

So several posters (NexusOne, This American Life) argue that instead of wasting my time on an FWB I should be looking for "relationship-minded" men.

 

My question is, what makes you assume I'm not? I'm still going out, I'm still looking online and open to the idea of meeting someone.

 

And about the sociopath thing. Yeah I thought that for a while, but trash-canned that theory after your said you purposefully do not tell to your dates that you sleep with another guy.

 

Like I said, it made me think you DID know what you were doing.

 

I admit though. I think the women and men that pull this kind of sh*t are sociopaths. They keep doing it over and over again and simply do not see what they're doing. They all seem to use the same arguments too, but those arguments never hold, they all collapse under ethical arguments, arguments of respect, arguments of loyalty, arguments of decency.

 

But that does not matter to those people, they'll downplay it and justify it for themselves with broken arguments. They see only themselves and what they themselves want, ethics be damned.

[Nexus One]

I mean to state that the reason she isn't finding herself in a relationship is not because she's "dating" people / interested in dating them while having a FWB. I'm not even necessarily referring to cheating --- "open" relationships apply. There's a lot more to a relationship than the sexual dynamics of one...

 

 

 

I do not personally multi-date / have FWB. Granted, when I was teenager, I had a couple FWB and discovered that such set-ups were not to my personal liking. The same goes for ONS --- I find sex while in an exclusive relationship with someone I love to be the most fulfilling and I haven't had sex with anyone outside of an exclusive relationship (I won't have sex with someone until I can believe we both love one another) for most of my (consensual) sexually active life.

 

I rather value monogamy to extreme degrees --- my own romantic ideals are generally scoffed at by most people. I don't expect others to appreciate them / find them to their liking. I realize there's all kinds of people. What works for many cannot work for me and vice versa.

 

I still draw a general line in regards to what I find ethical / moral within my own self and from what I can see of others, but even those can curve here and there depending upon details. Your assertions that she's lacking there is more concerning to me than what your assertions are, in regards to what she's posted...

 

So technically you're playing it by the book (you're saying). Yet you said you don't see it as an issue when someone screws around when he/she is dating relationship oriented people.

 

Seems somewhat contradictory to me to be honest. Especially when I take your following quote into consideration. You knew this wasn't about open relationships and you used the words "I'm not even necessarily referring to cheating", which makes me think I interpreted what you said correctly. I find an argument like "lot's of people do it, so that justifies it" to be one of the weakest arguments ever. Lots of people kill and steal, but the fact that there are many people who do that doesn't make it right. (Did I just really have to explain that to you?)

 

People get into relationship all the time, ones that last probably longer than they should, while sleeping with all kinds of other people (even simultaneously).

So that lots of other people cheat, that justifies it for anyone else? Is that what you're saying? Because I don't know how else to interpret what you said there.

 

So I stay with my initial understanding that I did interpret correctly what you said. Which was:

 

So that lots of other people cheat, that justifies it for anyone else? Is that what you're saying? Because I don't know how else to interpret what you said there.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Nexus One

[verhrzn]

I'd say it's pretty f*cking obvious that when you go to an online dating website and plan a date with a guy through that website, that you then are dating. Doesn't matter if it's just coffee or a movie. When I would sign up on an online dating website and I meet a girl/woman through that website, then I assume it's a date. How can there be any confusion about that?

 

It's so simple. You can just isolate the time period where you're dating for a relationship and then simply don't f*ck any guys during that time period. That way you solve the entire ethical issue. But lots of girls/women(and men) refuse this and they refuse it because the choose sex over respect and loyalty and decency.

 

 

You said you were dating for a relationship next to your FWB situation. You said so in this thread yourself. And suddenly you aren't?

 

I said I wasn't going on any dates, not that I wasn't looking. I AM looking... just nobody is BUYING. No one is ASKING me on dates. Thus, I am not going on any dates.

 

You alone made the assumption that I was going out with guys I met online... hell, going out with guys period.

 

The few situations I mentioned, they were both guys I met through friends/activities, so there's no handy little box I can reference that says "Hey I'm looking for a friend/relationship." Online has been a ghost town... I've tried messaging guys, and while they respond, it's weeks between responses (one guy was 3 months), or they always have some excuse for why they can't meet up yet.

 

Here's a scenario for you. 1 guy, and only 1 guy, responds to my message. However, he takes two weeks to respond each time, and says he doesn't want to meet up for a while cause he "has a stuffy nose." Are you honestly saying I should forsake my FWB/any other guy that might ask me out for HIM? If no, then why not? Because in your arrangement of non-multi-dating, who exactly do I choose to "commit" myself to?

 

You say it's SO simple, don't have sex when you're dating for a relationship. Except it's not that simple... I went months with no physical contact of any kind with anyone, I was lonely, I felt defeated, and no "relationship-minded" guy seemed to want me. If I were to give up my FWB, all it would accomplish is yet more months of being lonely and unwanted, BECAUSE NO GUY WANTS TO DATE ME.

 

Why is it so unreasonable to have an FWB but also want a relationship? Until I FIND an actual RELATIONSHIP, why is it bad to get at least some of my needs met? There is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE except myself who this decision impacts. How is a non-existent guy getting his feelings hurt, what "ethics" are being ruined here, that I get some needs met UNTIL I find someone who is actually worth committing to??

[Nexus One]

I said I wasn't going on any dates, not that I wasn't looking. I AM looking... just nobody is BUYING. No one is ASKING me on dates. Thus, I am not going on any dates.

 

You alone made the assumption that I was going out with guys I met online... hell, going out with guys period.

 

The few situations I mentioned, they were both guys I met through friends/activities, so there's no handy little box I can reference that says "Hey I'm looking for a friend/relationship." Online has been a ghost town... I've tried messaging guys, and while they respond, it's weeks between responses (one guy was 3 months), or they always have some excuse for why they can't meet up yet.

 

Then you worded that very poorly. But whether you are dating or not is irrelevant to the ethical issue of it. You'd still do it if you were dating. That's what I understood you said.

 

Sigh. I'm kind of getting tired of this. You damn well know what the point is.

 

Here's a scenario for you. 1 guy, and only 1 guy, responds to my message. However, he takes two weeks to respond each time, and says he doesn't want to meet up for a while cause he "has a stuffy nose." Are you honestly saying I should forsake my FWB/any other guy that might ask me out for HIM? If no, then why not? Because in your arrangement of non-multi-dating, who exactly do I choose to "commit" myself to?

 

Answer: You shouldn't be dating while f*cking another guy.

 

You say it's SO simple, don't have sex when you're dating for a relationship. Except it's not that simple... I went months with no physical contact of any kind with anyone, I was lonely, I felt defeated, and no "relationship-minded" guy seemed to want me. If I were to give up my FWB, all it would accomplish is yet more months of being lonely and unwanted, BECAUSE NO GUY WANTS TO DATE ME.

 

I too have been feeling lonely at times lately (and without physical contact). But I didn't give up my principles and ideals despite that.

 

I'm not saying I'm better than you. I'm saying those arguments don't justify the whole 'dating relationship oriented people while messing around with someone else at the same time' thing.

 

Why is it so unreasonable to have an FWB but also want a relationship? Until I FIND an actual RELATIONSHIP, why is it bad to get at least some of my needs met? There is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE except myself who this decision impacts. How is a non-existent guy getting his feelings hurt, what "ethics" are being ruined here, that I get some needs met UNTIL I find someone who is actually worth committing to??

 

FWB --> No ethical issues when all sides agree to the terms of the FWB agreement and keep their word.

 

Multi-Dating for a relationship --> No ethical issues if everyone involved is notified that you are dating multiple people, but not fooling around with any of them or any other people outside the dating pool. So no making out, no blow jobs and no sex with any of the people you're dating simultaneously.

 

(Multi-)Dating for a relationship while messing around with other people while nobody knows you're doing that --> Unethical. Because people can get hurt and they had no chance to disagree with what you're doing and leave to prevent themselves from getting hurt by you.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Nexus One

[ThsAmericanLife]

When married, I tended to look at the dynamic of synergistic leadership; recognizing each others strengths and respecting them for the good and success of the team. The example I gave was indicative of that. I had the experience, expertise and success in that one area so it was natural that I lead. OTOH, my exW was a gifted natural designer, so I respected and relied on her for input and decision on color, texture, design and implementation of how we would furnish and decorate the home I expertly chose. To me, this is how a team operates, playing to the strengths of the team members for the overall success of of the team. I saw it in action growing up and saw how healthy the environment was that such a system created. I certainly don't want a 'team' where I'm relegated to the garage or basement while the woman 'owns' the house. That ain't never gonna happen in my natural life.

 

Well, hallejuh!! We really are on the same page then...

[OnyxSnowfall]

So technically you're playing it by the book (you're saying). Yet you said you don't see it as an issue when someone screws around when he/she is dating relationship oriented people.

 

Seems somewhat contradictory to me to be honest. Especially when I take your following quote into consideration. You knew this wasn't about open relationships and you used the words "I'm not even necessarily referring to cheating", which makes me think I interpreted what you said correctly. I find an argument like "lot's of people do it, so that justifies it" to be one of the weakest arguments ever. Lots of people kill and steal, but the fact that there are many people who do that doesn't make it right. (Did I just really have to explain that to you?)

 

So I stay with my initial understanding that I did interpret correctly what you said. Which was:

 

My goodness.

 

There's a huge failure of communication going on in this thread.

 

You're not reading / processing what verhrzn is writing.

 

You're on this illogical crusade and I am both somewhat fascinated and disturbed by it.

 

Sigh... I don't know where to start.

 

What's right to someone can be wrong to another.

That's all I was trying to say.

 

Also, you're not addressing the point.

 

From what I can tell, the point is that verhrzn is "settling" for a FWB because she can't find someone she wants to be in a relationship with and someone who wants to be in one with her. This dilemma was before she gained her current FWB. It's NOT because of the FWB...

 

She is human and she has sexual needs and desires and can get lonely just like anyone else. Who are you to state she should suffer through all that whilst she seeks a better situation? UNTIL she's actually CLOSE to even finding the person to be in a relationship with, what "evils" are going on here? Is she deceiving lover(s)? No? Is she repeatedly seeing the same men and using them / etc etc etc? No? What are these evils you speak of.

 

Also, people have different strengths and flaws.

 

FOR myself, it was EASY for me because I just preferred to be alone as opposed to having FWB / ONS --- masturbating was more sexually satisfying. Not everyone's like that. I'm not gonna say they're wrong. It could be 20 times harder for them than it was for me. I simply just didn't like it, but if I did, what would I have done? It's not saying much for me, I wasn't resisting some kind of "temptation" etc.

 

Also, I am well aware that just because the majority does something that doesn't mean it's right. But you're plastering your code of high moral grounds as black and white. To be honest, I was guilty of that in the past. Maybe in time you'll learn that things can be more complex, and there's a lot that one can never, ever know... nor should they presume to.

 

I unfortunately have nothing I can really offer by way of helping the OP. I think there's probably a LOT of factors that are taking place... but many people have found the "one" while multi-dating etc... and yes, sleeping with others --- many of those have CEASED sleeping with other people when they meet the "one" too (and of course I wanted to account for the ones that don't... but still manage to find a relationship wherein there is mutual attraction and deep investment).

Edited September 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

[OnyxSnowfall]

 

FWB --> No ethical issues when all sides agree to the terms of the FWB agreement and keep their word.

 

Multi-Dating for a relationship --> No ethical issues if everyone involved is notified that you are dating multiple people, but not fooling around with any of them or any other people outside the dating pool. So no making out, no blow jobs and no sex with any of the people you're dating simultaneously.

 

(Multi-)Dating for a relationship while messing around with other people while nobody knows you're doing that --> Unethical. Because people can get hurt and they had no chance to disagree with what you're doing and leave to prevent themselves from getting hurt by you.

 

One is not obligated to tell someone (who they're not even sure they're going on a "date" with) that they have a FWB.

 

Sorry.

[verhrzn]

One is not obligated to tell someone (who they're not even sure they're going on a "date" with) that they have a FWB.

 

Sorry.

 

Oh come on, that would make for a great first "date" conversation.

 

"So, I really have no idea if you're even romantically interested in me, but I just wanted to make it clear that until you agree to be my serious committed boyfriend I am totally humping this guy over here, even though it is none of your business and there's a very good chance that even if you are interested in getting to know me as a potential girlfriend, you are doing the exact same thing."