"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[Nexus One]

You're not reading / processing what verhrzn is writing.

 

When you read the quote I posted from verhzn. It sounded like she was dating, if she's not then she worded that VERY poorly come one sjeez, but like I said, to the discussion about the ethics of it and the fact that she did want to do it and does have that attitude/intention, it doesn't make any difference.

 

The discussion and the arguments don't change in that regard.

 

You're on this illogical crusade and I am both somewhat fascinated and disturbed by it.

 

You're just trying to discredit me. I don't f*cking trust you, not after the things you said like "when lots of people cheat, then it's justified". Or that screwing with other guys while dating

"is not an issue"

.

 

Makes me think you worded your reply that you always played by the book very cleverly. I'm not sure you were truthful on that, because you seem to be very biased to the unethical side of this discussion.

 

What's right to someone can be wrong to another.

That's all I was trying to say.

 

Ethics are universal, because it deals with suffering and that too is a universal concept.

 

She is human and she has sexual needs and desires and can get lonely just like anyone else. Who are you to state she should suffer through all that whilst she seeks a better situation? UNTIL she's actually CLOSE to even finding the person to be in a relationship with, what "evils" are going on here? Is she deceiving lover(s)? No? Is she repeatedly seeing the same men and using them / etc etc etc? No? What are these evils you speak of.

 

Like I said, just because of those feelings, it doesn't mean it's justify it.

 

Also, people have different strengths and flaws.

 

True, some people kill, some people steal, some people cheat. That doesn't justify anything.

 

Damn, you really are something you know that? You call me illogical, but you say: "when lots of people cheat, then it's justified"

 

Yet I'm the illogical one. Play that game Onyx.

 

Also, I am well aware that just because the majority does something that doesn't mean it's right. But you're plastering your code of high moral grounds as black and white. To be honest, I was guilty of that in the past.

 

So I was right, you are biased because you did something like that. That's so f*cking unfair of you to downplay me, because you were involved in something like that.

 

Maybe in time you'll learn that things can be more complex, and there's a lot that one can never, ever know... nor should they presume to.

 

With that, I 100% agree. Like I said, I don't think I'm better than verhrzn or anyone else for that matter.

 

What I do account people with such attitude is their intentions to keep doing it and justifying it. THEN you see me posting like I'm now.

 

I tend to react the same way when people justify killing of other people to name an example. That's way worse of course and can't hardly be compared to this, but something in me just triggers when people justify hurting other people.

 

Yet the people who have the intention to do harm or justify the infliction of harm are often portrayed as the victim in threads like this. But the guy that calls them out on it (in defense of the REAL victims) is the illogical one, the one "to be worried about". Play that game.

[aj22one]

One is not obligated to tell someone (who they're not even sure they're going on a "date" with) that they have a FWB.

 

Sorry.

 

This is true. But, I have to wonder, is it really that hard to abstain from sex when you're not in a relationship? The only girls I've slept with were girls I was in a relationship with. After all, the OP is apparently looking for "relationship minded men". Being one myself I can tell you I'd be turned off by someone who had an ongoing FWB situation. Which IMO is very different from a ONS.

[OnyxSnowfall]

Damn, you really are something you know that? You call me illogical, but you say: "when lots of people cheat, then it's justified"

I never stated that. I never even answered your question there besides conceding that majority doesn't make something right.

 

You have a strange way of interpreting things.

 

 

Also:

 

"To be honest, I was guilty of that in the past.

So I was right, you are biased because you did something like that. That's so f*cking unfair of you to downplay me, because you were involved in something like that."

 

I MEANT that I used to view my "high morals" as BLACK AND WHITE. Silly.

[Nexus One]

One is not obligated to tell someone (who they're not even sure they're going on a "date" with) that they have a FWB.

 

Sorry.

 

You shouldn't be dating in the first place when you intend to keep f*cking someone else. But I already gathered from your previous posts that your ethical framework is different from mine. You're basically saying you're one of those people that justifies it in general and the obscuring of it.

 

If you made a mistake in the past, I can't judge you for that. But if you JUSTIFY it, then that's a whole different ballgame. Then you get me up in arms.

[OnyxSnowfall]

You shouldn't be dating in the first place when you intend to keep f*cking someone else. But I already gathered from your previous posts that your ethical framework is different from mine. You're basically saying you're one of those people that justifies it in general and the obscuring of it.

 

If you made a mistake in the past, I can't judge you for that. But if you JUSTIFY it, then that's a whole different ballgame. Then you get me up in arms.

 

The main difference between your ethical framework and mine is that I see the cracks in them. They otherwise look to be made out of similar material.

Edited September 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

[Nexus One]

I never stated that. I never even answered your question there besides conceding that majority doesn't make something right.

 

You have a strange way of interpreting things.

 

You used the following as an argument:

 

People get into relationship all the time, ones that last probably longer than they should, while sleeping with all kinds of other people (even simultaneously).

 

And now suddenly you never stated that?

 

It's possible that I misinterpreted it, but then you(like verhrzn) should word certain critical things better. However, parts of your follow-up replies indicated that I didn't misinterpret you there at all.

 

In the end. You're justifying this thing. You're defending it. You, not me.

[somedude81]

Oh come on, that would make for a great first "date" conversation.

 

"So, I really have no idea if you're even romantically interested in me, but I just wanted to make it clear that until you agree to be my serious committed boyfriend I am totally humping this guy over here, even though it is none of your business and there's a very good chance that even if you are interested in getting to know me as a potential girlfriend, you are doing the exact same thing."

Actually it is the most important first date conversation. It's already been brought up before. But I'll say it again.

 

If I'm on a date with a girl, I will ask her if she is seeing anybody. That's basically code for, are you already having sex with a guy? If her answer is anything but no, I will walk away. I do not want to share a girl with somebody else.

 

Likewise, I would not already be sleeping with a girl while looking for a new one.

[OnyxSnowfall]

You used the following as an argument:

 

 

 

And now suddenly you never stated that?

 

It's possible that I misinterpreted it, but then you(like verhrzn) should word certain critical things better. However, parts of your follow-up replies indicated that I didn't misinterpret you there at all.

 

In the end. You're justifying this thing. You're defending it. You, not me.

 

Nexus...

 

This: "People get into relationship(s*) all the time, ones that last probably longer than they should, while sleeping with all kinds of other people (even simultaneously)."

 

is to indicate that

 

the main problem is NOT because she has a FWB. I am not claiming those things are admirable / justified. JUST that relationships happen despite things like FWB and more than just FWB.

 

I feel people are trying to state her main issue is the FWB --- I think relationships (for better or WORSE) frequently occur, despite such things and more.

[Nexus One]

The main difference between your ethical framework and mine is that I see the cracks in them. They otherwise look to be made out of similar material.

 

As if I don't know that I'm not perfect or would never fail or would never make a mistake.

 

Sure Onyx, play that game.

 

I'm not up in arms against people's mistakes. I'm up in arms against people's intentions and justifications of doing harm upon others.

 

The attitude we're discussing is so widespread, that dating is just becoming skewed by it. Things that are unethical have become the norm, have become the standard and perhaps even culture.

 

I say, f*ck everything about that.

[Nexus One]

Actually it is the most important first date conversation. It's already been brought up before. But I'll say it again.

 

If I'm on a date with a girl, I will ask her if she is seeing anybody. That's basically code for, are you already having sex with a guy? If her answer is anything but no, I will walk away. I do not want to share a girl with somebody else.

 

Likewise, I would not already be sleeping with a girl while looking for a new one.

 

Thanks Somedude. At least someone who gets it. I would react exactly the same way. I would just leave the moment I know she's involved with someone else.

 

Lots of people are not seeing the issue though and that has me worried.

[thatone]

Oh come on, that would make for a great first "date" conversation.

 

"So, I really have no idea if you're even romantically interested in me, but I just wanted to make it clear that until you agree to be my serious committed boyfriend I am totally humping this guy over here, even though it is none of your business and there's a very good chance that even if you are interested in getting to know me as a potential girlfriend, you are doing the exact same thing."

 

it is their business, because it's a sign of character. i'm with nexus on this.

 

i'm not approaching, date planning, paying, driving, and any and everything else that goes along with even a first date for a woman who is actively having sex with some other guy.

 

i don't care what your explanation is, it isn't good enough.

 

so while we can discuss the reasons why you don't find relationships til we're blue in the face, having a FWB arrangement means that you start off every first date with a lie. any man willing to go on that first date will assume, and rightfully so, that you are not having sex with someone else at the same time. if he knew the truth he wouldn't date you.

 

just because you are lying by omission doesn't make it any less lying.

 

and no, people who are looking for relationships are not doing the exact same thing. your assumption is wrong on that.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Verhzn,

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I hope there was some value to you in terms of what men/women want.

 

To interject here... in a way that is hopefully not disrespectful to anyone.

 

There is something you might be missing here...or choose to ignore.

 

When I go out with a guy, I can figure out pretty quick if he has a FWB or is dicking some other woman while going on dates with me. I won't make a big deal of it... I just won't see him again or I will FZ him. And he won't get a second chance. In my mind, I've already put him in a spot where I've come to the conclusion that our values don't align. and it is permanent.

 

This is what relationship minded men are doing to you. The fact that some of these relationship minded men are friends of friends means you are depleting your pool. BIG TIME. Please don't tell me that women my age don't know what you are going through... or that things are different these days. We spent the first few pages of this thread talking about all the ways things are the same when it comes to people who want relationships vs those that don't.

 

You start a thread saying "men don't know what they want'.

 

I'm sorry, but it appears that YOU don't know what you want... and that is ok. I/we here would just like you to see... for your own benefit... that YOU have the power to change this. But it means probably doing some things that aren't fun or convenient.

 

Like so many things in life... the things really worth having requires effort. Real effort.

[verhrzn]

Actually it is the most important first date conversation. It's already been brought up before. But I'll say it again.

 

If I'm on a date with a girl, I will ask her if she is seeing anybody. That's basically code for, are you already having sex with a guy? If her answer is anything but no, I will walk away. I do not want to share a girl with somebody else.

 

Likewise, I would not already be sleeping with a girl while looking for a new one.

 

Why in the world are you asking that on a first date? Or even the first few dates? The first few dates are to determine if you even want to see this person again; why pull the discussion of commitment and monogamy into it when you yourself are not ready to "go the distance" on those topics? Unless I'm mistaken, and you already decide on the first date that this is the girl you want to commit yourself to? If that's how you approach dating, then fine.... but it's a bit too speedy for me.

 

And what the hell is this "share" business? Until you're her boyfriend, what claim do you have over her? Why should she forsake everyone else for you, when you're not offering her a relationship?

 

You're honestly going to tell me that, hypothetically, if there was a girl you found really attractive but didn't want to date for whatever reason, you would turn down no-strings sex with her OR not continue looking for a girl you DID want to date while enjoying some perks?

[Woggle]

Sure they can. I do it everyday. Ignore trends that don't suit my life or serve any purpose....

 

You can choose not to follow them but it doesn't mean it isn't a trend. Look at how most men on this board have the same story and go to any relationship board and they say the same thing. Go ask a group of men about relationships and you also get the same thing. Are all these men just making this stuff up?

[Nexus One]

Nexus...

 

This: "People get into relationship(s*) all the time, ones that last probably longer than they should, while sleeping with all kinds of other people (even simultaneously)."

 

is to indicate that

 

the main problem is NOT because she has a FWB. I am not claiming those things are admirable / justified. JUST that relationships happen despite things like FWB and more than just FWB.

 

I feel people are trying to state her main issue is the FWB --- I think relationships (for better or WORSE) frequently occur, despite such things and more.

 

Ok fair enough, that was some major mis-communication(or misinterpretation) then, because that basically had me thinking you were batsh*t insane.

 

Doesn't take away from the fact that you are defending/justifying this whole thing, as you said that this is an "illogical crusade" of mine.

 

I'm sure you women have it wrong on this issue, I really do. This whole thing seems so counter-intuitive in to begin with and then I'm not even talking about the ethics of it. I think Somedude illustrated it in his example quite well. I don't see how a guy looking for a monogamous relationship can keep dating a woman that's already involved with someone else. It just doesn't make sense.

[Nexus One]

Why in the world are you asking that on a first date?

 

Good grief, this just keeps getting worse verhrzn.

 

I even ask that BEFORE the first date, because I cannot in good conscience date a girl/woman that's already involved with someone. Not for me and not for them.

[ThsAmericanLife]

... and I need to add Verhzn... that it might be convenient to think that the men posting to you here are applying double standards... ie, the old 'it's ok if men have sex but not women'... but they aren't.

 

Neither am I.

 

We are all saying the same thing. I won't date a man who is actively having sex with another woman. A relationship minded man won't date a woman is actively having sex with another man.

 

See... it actually IS consistent. The fact that this advice is spanning one to three decades of relationship experience should tell you something. Maybe you could trust us on this one??

 

I'm sorry you feel lonely. I really think you can do better than a FWB though.

 

There is an old saying... "Character is what you do when noone is looking"

[verhrzn]

Verhzn,

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I hope there was some value to you in terms of what men/women want.

 

To interject here... in a way that is hopefully not disrespectful to anyone.

 

There is something you might be missing here...or choose to ignore.

 

When I go out with a guy, I can figure out pretty quick if he has a FWB or is dicking some other woman while going on dates with me. I won't make a big deal of it... I just won't see him again or I will FZ him. And he won't get a second chance. In my mind, I've already put him in a spot where I've come to the conclusion that our values don't align. and it is permanent.

 

This is what relationship minded men are doing to you. The fact that some of these relationship minded men are friends of friends means you are depleting your pool. BIG TIME. Please don't tell me that women my age don't know what you are going through... or that things are different these days. We spent the first few pages of this thread talking about all the ways things are the same when it comes to people who want relationships vs those that don't.

 

You start a thread saying "men don't know what they want'.

 

I'm sorry, but it appears that YOU don't know what you want... and that is ok. I/we here would just like you to see... for your own benefit... that YOU have the power to change this. But it means probably doing some things that aren't fun or convenient.

 

Like so many things in life... the things really worth having requires effort. Real effort.

 

Perhaps we just disagree on "relationship-minded men" and how we deal with dating.

 

I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but I go into a first date automatically assuming that the person I'm sitting across with is seeing/having sex/possibly even ready to commit to someone else. And I don't mind. After all, it's just a coffee. It's just one person sitting down with another person to get to know them. No need to attach all these BIG RELATIONSHIP discussions onto it already. Talk about pressure...

 

I think I do know what I want. I do want a relationship. The only caveat is I don't want to sacrifice some of my needs until I get one... if nothing else, because there's a possibility I never WILL get a relationship. There are people out there nobody wants to date. Should I be one of those people, I don't see why it's an issue to find a substitute. I could sit here, not getting my needs met, for months, YEARS, and still never find a "relationship minded guy."

 

And ya know what, if a guy friend-zones me for dating around when I am SINGLE, when I have no COMMITMENT to him, and when he himself hasn't even made it clear what his expectations are (no dating other people even though we're not in a serious relationship), then I'm not sure I want that "relationship-minded guy." Because that smacks to me, of insecurity, possessiveness and a tendency to judge others without looking at it from their perspective.

 

I wouldn't judge a guy for not knowing right away if he wants to commit (aka, not sleep around, ie be single and unattached) to me. I only ask the same in return.

[somedude81]

Why in the world are you asking that on a first date? Or even the first few dates? The first few dates are to determine if you even want to see this person again; why pull the discussion of commitment and monogamy into it when you yourself are not ready to "go the distance" on those topics? Unless I'm mistaken, and you already decide on the first date that this is the girl you want to commit yourself to? If that's how you approach dating, then fine.... but it's a bit too speedy for me.

It doesn't have anything to do with commitment. I simply don't want to put any time or energy into a woman who is already getting her rocks off from somebody else. It just makes things way too complicated.

 

And what the hell is this "share" business? Until you're her boyfriend, what claim do you have over her? Why should she forsake everyone else for you, when you're not offering her a relationship?

No one should have any claim over her. And that is essentially what sleeping with somebody does.

You're honestly going to tell me that, hypothetically, if there was a girl you found really attractive but didn't want to date for whatever reason, you would turn down no-strings sex with her OR not continue looking for a girl you DID want to date while enjoying some perks?

There are two answers.

 

At this point I'm not looking for no-strings sex. If she's not good enough for a relationship, she's not good enough for sex.

 

But lets say that for whatever reason I was in a FWB with a girl that I didn't to see a future with and wanted a girlfriend. I would end it with her before I start looking for a woman to have a relationship with. If I was just looking for another sex buddy, then I wouldn't end it with the first one.

[verhrzn]

... and I need to add Verhzn... that it might be convenient to think that the men posting to you here are applying double standards... ie, the old 'it's ok if men have sex but not women'... but they aren't.

 

Neither am I.

 

We are all saying the same thing. I won't date a man who is actively having sex with another woman. A relationship minded man won't date a woman is actively having sex with another man.

 

See... it actually IS consistent. The fact that this advice is spanning one to three decades of relationship experience should tell you something. Maybe you could trust us on this one??

 

I'm sorry you feel lonely. I really think you can do better than a FWB though.

 

There is an old saying... "Character is what you do when noone is looking"

 

I never claimed double standards. I claim rigid morality.

 

For instance, this idea of "character." How is it "character" to act single when I am single? How is it "character" to sit at home and be alone, even though it hurts and affects absolutely NO ONE if I don't?

 

I've spent YEARS following your advice, being alone, "having character", and the "relationship minded guys" still pass me by.

 

And yes, that's YOUR experience, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but that we have different takes on it. Your idea of a "relationship minded man" is one who acts like you, aka no other prospects. I don't require that a guy not be sleeping with anyone... until I'm sleeping with him, until he's my boyfriend, I consider it none of my business, just like I consider the stranger on the bus next to me's sex life none of my business.

 

And if that's the ONLY kind of "relationship minded men" out there, then I'm not sure I want one, as I don't want a guy to demand I tie myself down to him sexually and emotionally before I even know him, and am ready to decide that I WANT to be tied to him.

[aj22one]

 

I think I do know what I want. I do want a relationship. The only caveat is I don't want to sacrifice some of my needs until I get one... if nothing else, because there's a possibility I never WILL get a relationship. There are people out there nobody wants to date. Should I be one of those people, I don't see why it's an issue to find a substitute. I could sit here, not getting my needs met, for months, YEARS, and still never find a "relationship minded guy."

 

And ya know what, if a guy friend-zones me for dating around when I am SINGLE, when I have no COMMITMENT to him, and when he himself hasn't even made it clear what his expectations are (no dating other people even though we're not in a serious relationship), then I'm not sure I want that "relationship-minded guy." Because that smacks to me, of insecurity, possessiveness and a tendency to judge others without looking at it from their perspective.

 

I wouldn't judge a guy for not knowing right away if he wants to commit (aka, not sleep around, ie be single and unattached) to me. I only ask the same in return.

 

With that attitude (what I bolded) you will never get into a relationship, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I mean jeez Louise, is it that hard to go a little while without sex while you focus on finding a relationship minded guy? Most of these types (myself included) would be completely turned off. If your focus is on your FWB than it can't be on finding a relationship because you aren't "technically" single. You're "sort of" single.

[ThsAmericanLife]

You can choose not to follow them but it doesn't mean it isn't a trend. Look at how most men on this board have the same story and go to any relationship board and they say the same thing. Go ask a group of men about relationships and you also get the same thing. Are all these men just making this stuff up?

 

I think we've hijacked Verhzn's thread enough.

 

If you want a 'traditional' woman and found one, then good for you.

 

The 75% rate of divorce that women are applying seems to indicate that most aren't happy with that arrangement though...

[Nexus One]

I don't require that a guy not be sleeping with anyone... until I'm sleeping with him, until he's my boyfriend, I consider it none of my business, just like I consider the stranger on the bus next to me's sex life none of my business.

 

That might be a MAJOR part of why you've been unsuccessful in getting a relationship. By allowing that you'll tend to attract guys that only want sex with you.

 

You have a very low standard in that sense, as you don't mind dating a guy that's already involved with someone.

 

No wonder you've been failing in getting into a relationship, yet ended up in FWB's.

[Woggle]

I think we've hijacked Verhzn's thread enough.

 

If you want a 'traditional' woman and found one, then good for you.

 

The 75% rate of divorce that women are applying seems to indicate that most aren't happy with that arrangement though...

 

The thing is that I have an equal relationship and I am happy with it but I am one of the rare ones. I don't know why all women divorce but it seems that the more enlightened men who make an effort to be equal partners end up getting the most grief.

 

My father who was in his mid 20s around the time of the 70s women's movement pointed out once that the men who genuinely did try to have equal relationships with liberated women are all divorced right now while the men who just went and married stepford wives for most part had marriages that lasted. If he could do it again he would have married a woman like that.

 

I prefer an equal partnership but it seems rare to have one and sustain attraction on the woman's part.

[Mangomonkey]

I'll just throw my 4 cents in there.

 

To the OP. Ima ignore everything else about how you date and whatever. Its your business. I will address your insecurities tho. In my personal belief. Relationships are worthness. The movies and media glamorize it but in all honesty it is completely worthless. I have a personal belief that we shouldn't strive for a relationship but a relationship is something we endure for someone who is worth it. And in order to be with someone who is worth the trouble. We have to be worth it also.

 

You seriously need to learn to start valuing and loving yourself more as a person. Learn to be content with yourself. After that everything else will fall into place. I will tell you this now. Whether you consider yourself ugly (as you stated something close to that in an earlier post. idk.) or other people do. Someone will find something special about you. I know some of the most gorgeous women in the world. And All they get are FWBs and are all lonely.

 

Partially if not entirely their own fault. But for whatever reason that should be an indicator its not all about looks. I have had friends who screwed gorgeous women but marry ugly fiends. But they love them. Even for me. I like sexy women. But I'll only love a beautiful one. And the word beautiful have many scopes.

 

Now to go against you for a bit. I actually made a thread before about a woman (actually a few) who did to me what you do to other guys. It pissed me off to have a woman talk to me about relationships to find out their screwing the guy down the street. it REALLY pissed me off. I dont jump on women sexually. Too many diseases floating around. And until you had a STD or a pregnancy scare. Its gonna be hard to swallow that for those "its none of your business" type women. I dont mess with them. Period. And trust me. I encourage my female friends to whore around. at least to get it out their system.