"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[verhrzn]

Baka! (Sorry, I've been watching a lot of Soul Eater)

 

You are shooting yourself in the foot by doing that. You say you like awkward guys but don't give them a chance to warm up to you. Also the guys who would want a relationship aren't going to try to sleep with you right away.

 

I think you've turned away many men would have wanted a relationship with you but they moved too slow for you.

 

So you weeded them all out and left only the guys who just want sex.

 

I just wanted to make that point before I have lunch. I'll address the rest later.

 

I've never observed that it's shooting myself in the foot. If anything, I'm doing exactly what people on this thread are telling me to do... not waste time with someone who doesn't want me. If a guy doesn't make a move fairly early on, I have no way of gauging if it's shyness or platonic disinterest. I get real sick of sitting across a dinner table from someone date after date, whom I'm either losing attraction for, or is frustrating me to the point where I always burst out," Look, are we 'just friends' or what, cause you're sending really mixed signals!" Yeah. Awkward.

 

If guys don't want to sleep with me right away, what's the point of continuing to date them? I want a boyfriend who is really physically attracted to me... dating a guy who doesn't want to sleep with me right away is just a very expensive and confusing friendship.

 

If these guys have to warm up to me for longer than four dates, to the point where they can't do any more than HUG me, how desirable could they really find me? Call it the Ugly Girl Dilemma, but I'd rather have a guy think I'm super hot and then discover I also have an awesome personality, then have a guy decide I have an awesome personality and... eventually... want to sleep with me. The latter is just a very long "friend-zoning" process.

 

PS:

Okay, girl-nerd tip... Don't say "baka." Don't insert random Japanese words into your English conversations. I speak Japanese, and it drives me CRAZY, it's like holding up a big sign that says "I watch anime with subtitles cause I'm too pretentious for the dubbed but can't be bothered to learn more than a few catch phrases of the language!" If you're gonna speak Japanese... speak Japanese. It'll demonstrate you are cultured and interesting. Sorry-just BIG pet peeve of mine.

[aj22one]

I've never observed that it's shooting myself in the foot. If anything, I'm doing exactly what people on this thread are telling me to do... not waste time with someone who doesn't want me. If a guy doesn't make a move fairly early on, I have no way of gauging if it's shyness or platonic disinterest. I get real sick of sitting across a dinner table from someone date after date, whom I'm either losing attraction for, or is frustrating me to the point where I always burst out," Look, are we 'just friends' or what, cause you're sending really mixed signals!" Yeah. Awkward.

 

If guys don't want to sleep with me right away, what's the point of continuing to date them? I want a boyfriend who is really physically attracted to me... dating a guy who doesn't want to sleep with me right away is just a very expensive and confusing friendship.

 

If these guys have to warm up to me for longer than four dates, to the point where they can't do any more than HUG me, how desirable could they really find me? Call it the Ugly Girl Dilemma, but I'd rather have a guy think I'm super hot and then discover I also have an awesome personality, then have a guy decide I have an awesome personality and... eventually... want to sleep with me. The latter is just a very long "friend-zoning" process.

 

PS:

Okay, girl-nerd tip... Don't say "baka." Don't insert random Japanese words into your English conversations. I speak Japanese, and it drives me CRAZY, it's like holding up a big sign that says "I watch anime with subtitles cause I'm too pretentious for the dubbed but can't be bothered to learn more than a few catch phrases of the language!" If you're gonna speak Japanese... speak Japanese. It'll demonstrate you are cultured and interesting. Sorry-just BIG pet peeve of mine.

 

How long is "right away"? I mean I know I wouldn't sleep with a girl until 5-6 dates. Now, I agree there is a natural progression in terms of physical stuff (not hugging until the fourth date is moving incredibly slow). But expecting all men to want jump in the sack on the first date is a little extreme.

 

The thing about guys is that we're taught to respect women, so many guys are afraid of being too direct sexually, worried that they'll turn the girl off. This goes double for the awkward ones. Blame abstinence only sex education for that.

[Nexus One]

verhrzn, why not try dating Somedude? Perhaps you guys don't live that far away from each other. You both want a relationship and he seems to fit the description of what you're looking for.

[verhrzn]

How long is "right away"? I mean I know I wouldn't sleep with a girl until 5-6 dates. Now, I agree there is a natural progression in terms of physical stuff (not hugging until the fourth date is moving incredibly slow). But expecting all men to want jump in the sack on the first date is a little extreme.

 

The thing about guys is that we're taught to respect women, so many guys are afraid of being too direct sexually, worried that they'll turn the girl off. This goes double for the awkward ones. Blame abstinence only sex education for that.

 

I do....

 

I take a guy not wanting to get intimate til the 5th or 6th date as evidence that my looks weren't enough, and that I had to win him over with my personality (the 2 boyfriends I've had who DIDN'T start out as FWBs both told me this, that my personality is what made me attractive. Ugh.)

 

I also take it that he's not a very sexual person, that our sexual compatibility wouldn't be there. Sex is very important to me, and a big part of what I'm looking for in a partner... if I'm more eager to jump in the sack that he is, it's probably not a good sign for our durability.

 

So, hey... maybe that's why I keep ending up with FWBs guys, because it's a pretty fast way to determine if you and the guy "match" in that area.

[Nexus One]

I do....

 

I take a guy not wanting to get intimate til the 5th or 6th date as evidence that my looks weren't enough, and that I had to win him over with my personality (the 2 boyfriends I've had who DIDN'T start out as FWBs both told me this, that my personality is what made me attractive. Ugh.

 

Personality is a huge factor of attraction. If you dismiss that as an invalid argument (from a guy), then you can miss out. An attractive personality can make a woman look physically more attractive too, because it can cause a man to view a woman from a different perspective or in a different "light" so to speak.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Women are going to get burned by men if they believe that. You can all believe what you want. I too thought the 50% cheating statistic was exaggerated, until I started talking about it to guys and I was shocked the percentage pretty much reflected reality if not worse. We're not talking about players here, this is across all layers of society. 50% of all men.

 

I'd be the first one to defend men if the truth of the matter was different, but it isn't.

 

In the past two years, I've had four married men proposition me. Oh wait. Five. I turned down the fifth because I wasn't attracted to him. I only found out later he was married. Good thing.

[torn_curtain]

I have a slightly different take on this from you.

 

I actually think men are more likely to be in relationships when they're very, very young -- like teenager to early twenties. And if they're not in a relationship at that stage then they're probably pining for one. But something happens to a lot of guys as they go from college to mid twenties. They harden.

 

I don't think it has that much to do with getting their hearts broken. After all, women get their hearts broken too just as often but they are less likely to harden and become relationship averse like guys. I think success too fast can harden people and destroy their innocence (in the same way that fame can ruin people). With a little ego boost a lot of former "nice guys" will turn into jerks.

 

Guys are less relationship inclined in general and get swept away by endless options when they gain a bit of confidence after college. Because nowadays there isn't the same pressure to marry young or marry at all, they are allowed to play out those options without guilt or consequence. That doesn't mean what they want is necessarily what they need. Sure, some of them would probably be happier if they eventually settled down but it's much easier to go with instant gratification.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I do....

 

I take a guy not wanting to get intimate til the 5th or 6th date as evidence that my looks weren't enough, and that I had to win him over with my personality (the 2 boyfriends I've had who DIDN'T start out as FWBs both told me this, that my personality is what made me attractive. Ugh.)

 

I also take it that he's not a very sexual person, that our sexual compatibility wouldn't be there. Sex is very important to me, and a big part of what I'm looking for in a partner... if I'm more eager to jump in the sack that he is, it's probably not a good sign for our durability.

 

So, hey... maybe that's why I keep ending up with FWBs guys, because it's a pretty fast way to determine if you and the guy "match" in that area.

 

You might need to revisit this.

 

It really is a myth that highly sexual people can't or won't wait. 5-6 dates is not long at all.

 

Here's the thing... the way you've been going along doesn't seem to be getting you what you want. Jumping into the sack gets you FWBs. Maybe you should try a different approach. You admit to having two boyfriends that didn't start out as FWBs... then you complain about guys who only want sex. Hmmm.

 

Make up your mind. Do you want a guy who wants a relationship, or do you want guys who just want you for sex?

 

Hey, if you just like sex, as you say, and don't want to wait and don't like guys who are willing to wait to develop a relationship, then you can't hardly complain about the outcome...

[AHardDaysNight]

I only know one man who has cheated, and it's not really cheating (since they're in an open relationship.)

 

Then again, I tend to surround myself with conservative Christians. Who knows what the atheists are up to?

 

This is not a dig at atheism, but I don't know a whole lot!

[Woggle]

I disagree that women are less likely to harden. You look at some women who have been through it with men and they have walls so thick you need an armored vehicle to get through them.

 

I also think that since women are encouraged to let their emotions hang out it is less traumatic for them when those emotions sometimes get played with. Men on the other hand are very much encouraged not to open up so when we do so for a woman and she betrays that trust it makes us harden. We see young girls lusting over the jerks and players and in many cases have had a woman catch GIGS and leave us for a jerk so we figure why not play for the winning team? Why not emulate the men who have the most success with women? Many men never fully regain their trust in women after their first betrayal.

 

I am not saying I agree with this approach but it is what many men are thinking.

[AHardDaysNight]

I agree with Woggle, kind of.

 

I see the types of men that women go for, and I am jaded by it. I thought I could be my kind, sweet nerdy self...nope! That doesn't go down well with women.

 

It seems like most women love drama, and they love men that destruct their lives so that they can rage at them...or throw a hissy fit. '

 

Instead of asking "what do men want?", maybe women should ask themselves, "what do I want from my man?" Because the players and a-holes are winning, and the good guys (unless they're drop dead attractive physically) are losing.

[torn_curtain]

I think a substantial number of these commitment phobic men WILL happily settle into a relationship if they meet the right woman, give her a chance and the timing is right. But these factors so rarely align. It's all psychological, but the guy has to either consciously change his way of thinking or a psychologically safe situation has to find him (less likely). So much depends on how a relationship starts. Once a guy opens himself up at all, he's yours.

 

My current 25-year-old boyfriend had never committed to anyone before and he's now very committed to me. I think it's because of those variables aligning. The natural barrier between us (we're long distance temporarily) allowed for a situation where he was able to get to know me really well beyond just intimacy at the beginning. We also started as friends so that alleviated some of the pressure.

 

If we had hooked up first in person and quickly fallen into a sexual relationship, he might have boxed me into **** buddy like the girls from his past. When sex happens too early it's not just that a guy starts to see you as primarily a sexual object but sex also creates pressure for a guy to decide what you're going to be to him. If you're having sex and he's not sure yet whether he wants a relationship with you, treading into emotional, really getting to know you territory is scary to him in that it might send you the wrong message.

 

In a way many guys have to be 'tricked' into committing to a girl because it's not their MO. You can't push them into a relationship. It's gotta happen without them knowing it. My bf jokes with me that I put him under a spell and got through his defenses before he was even aware of it because he's never this into anyone.

 

So if you can find a way of getting a guy comfortable enough to give you a chance and you're the kind of girl he's looking for, it can work. But I think once a guy's boxed you into FWB the chances of him seeing you in a different light are slim to none. Sometimes men can be so rigid-minded in this regard. I think men generally evaluate women in a more subjective way in that they'll let random factors taint their impression of a woman. I've seen a lot of men pass up on really great women because of how quickly she had sex with him or because he's still pining away for some unavailable chick.

Edited September 18, 2011 by torn_curtain

[torn_curtain]

I disagree that women are less likely to harden. You look at some women who have been through it with men and they have walls so thick you need an armored vehicle to get through them.

 

I also think that since women are encouraged to let their emotions hang out it is less traumatic for them when those emotions sometimes get played with. Men on the other hand are very much encouraged not to open up so when we do so for a woman and she betrays that trust it makes us harden. We see young girls lusting over the jerks and players and in many cases have had a woman catch GIGS and leave us for a jerk so we figure why not play for the winning team? Why not emulate the men who have the most success with women? Many men never fully regain their trust in women after their first betrayal.

 

I am not saying I agree with this approach but it is what many men are thinking.

 

I disagree with most of this. Some women do harden, but most don't harden to the point that they no longer want a real relationship.

 

The bit of your post I kind of agree with is that men partly harden because society encourages them to store up their emotions. But I don't think it's that they get trampled on by women and push their emotions down for that reason. I know this has been your personal experience Woggle, but from speaking to a number of commitment phobic or ex commitment phobic men (like my boyfriend) they rarely talk about heartbreak being a motivating factor in their hardening.

 

I think this is what happens for a lot of guys. Society pressures men to be more jaded and they start aping jaded successful men around them (not just romantically but socially and professionally). Also, being jaded probably does help them get more interest from women in sheer numbers if they simply want to get laid. That doesn't mean it makes them more interesting to relationship-minded, higher quality women (probably has the opposite effect), but these guys aren't generally interested in relationships. Even if they NEED a relationship, it doesn't look as enticing to them as commitment free sex. It's hard to resist that temptation.

 

I think the most dangerous guys are the "nice guys" who are insecure and have never sowed their wild oats, because give them a bit of confidence and they'll probably ditch their committed, loving girlfriend. The last thing I want is to be with a guy who is only with me because he's too insecure to play the field (what he really wants).

Edited September 18, 2011 by torn_curtain

[torn_curtain]

I agree with Woggle, kind of.

 

I see the types of men that women go for, and I am jaded by it. I thought I could be my kind, sweet nerdy self...nope! That doesn't go down well with women.

 

It seems like most women love drama, and they love men that destruct their lives so that they can rage at them...or throw a hissy fit. '

 

Instead of asking "what do men want?", maybe women should ask themselves, "what do I want from my man?" Because the players and a-holes are winning, and the good guys (unless they're drop dead attractive physically) are losing.

 

Eh. This is reminding me of the disconnect in that thread "bad boys with a heart of gold" in how men and women interpreted the quote.

 

It all depends on what you mean by "kind, sweet nerdy." If you're talking unassertive, insecure, eager to please, plays a lot of video games, then you probably will have trouble attracting women.

 

It always seems like an exercise in futility when I try to explain to men what women like but here's another shot.

 

Everyone has different turn ons but this is probably closest to the type that most healthy women fancy. I think women like a guy who on the surface is cool and confident and CAN play the social game if he wants to. In other words he's presentable and has enough social sense and street smarts to be successful, someone she's proud to be seen with. But around her he really opens up and shows some vulnerability, without being a pushover. He has to be a good person who doesn't mistreat her. The problem is it's hard from a distance to tell the douchebags from the guys who are basically good but guarded on the surface. So a lot of women fall for douchebags hunting for a heart of gold they'll never find. And of course there are also crazy women who go for guys who abuse them, but I'm assuming you don't want to attract crazies.

 

That said if forced to choose most women will probably pick the confident, successful douchebag over the weak, pushover, "nice" guy. Hell, I'd probably pick the former assuming he wasn't abusive or unfaithful because I can't stand pushovers and at least the other guy would turn me on. I also wouldn't trust that the "nice guy" was really nice as opposed to simply insecure and spineless.

Edited September 18, 2011 by torn_curtain

[Sanman]

So many interesting and differing thoughts in this thread. First off, I will say that I think that part of the reason dating is so hard is the expectations that we all have going into it. I find that most of the women I date lack patience and understanding to really make a relationship work. However, I find that true of many of my male friends as well. People, nowadays, come into dating expecting the total package and are rarely willing to compromise to make it work. As another poster stated, guys want the model and women want the hot successful guy. Few will ever turn inward and honestly look at what they have to offer. Even then, You see who will not give otherwise good guys time to sort out their career and prove themselves. Likewise many guys dismiss a woman who may not be their physical ideal even if she needs to only lose a few pounds, grow her hair out, or dress differently. Of course, what they want often does not want them. It is the quandary of the average person; is settling for than the perfection our heads, parents, and societal pressures dictate of us realistic or the path to unhappiness? This is nothing new really. It seems to me that many more people entered college with dreams of being a lawyer or doctor and many more push paper years later than achieve their dreams.

 

As for the OP, you are complaining men want FWB, but you admit sex is the most (or one of the most) important aspects of being in a good relationship. Sure, it is great (I love it!) but just because someone wants to jump you or is good in the sack does not mean that they are a good relationship prospect. By your own admission, your dating pool is limited to those you are immediately sexually compatible with. How about finding someone who fulfills you personality-wise, who you can live with on a daily basis (after all most of a relationship is liking the same food and entertainment), and then working on a fulfilling sexual relationship with that person. IME, a pleasurable sex life is largely about finding a partner with a willingness to please you and open communication. The rest can be taught with a little practice and sex is not rocket science.

 

Personally, I think torn curtain is onto something. My current gf (and the best relationship I have ever had thus far) and I met online and since we were long distance and ended up talking and e-mailing for 3 months before we ever met. I already knew I liked her personality and values. She is pretty, but a few dress sizes bigger than I usually date. I didn't let that stop me from seeing her and I am happy about that. Had I just met her immediately, I probably would have dismissed her as heavier than I prefer. However, I realize now that she is trying to lose the weight she gained in graduate school and working 60 hrs/wk on an internship. I also know that had she been a size 4 or 6, with her gorgeous face, amazing personality, and her accomplishments...she may have been out of my league. She likely would have dated someone out in their career with the fancy car and large bank account rather than someone just starting their career (albeit a fairly lucrative one).

 

In the end, it is up to each individual whether they want to free themselves of their preconceptions and expectations for a chance at happiness or if they want to allow their expectations of what want and deserve shackle them to a life they are unhappy with.

[aj22one]

Eh. This is reminding me of the disconnect in that thread "bad boys with a heart of gold" in how men and women interpreted the quote.

 

It all depends on what you mean by "kind, sweet nerdy." If you're talking unassertive, insecure, eager to please, plays a lot of video games, then you probably will have trouble attracting women.

 

It always seems like an exercise in futility when I try to explain to men what women like but here's another shot.

 

Everyone has different turn ons but this is probably closest to the type that most healthy women fancy. I think women like a guy who on the surface is cool and confident and CAN play the social game if he wants to. In other words he's presentable and has enough social sense and street smarts to be successful, someone she's proud to be seen with. But around her he really opens up and shows some vulnerability, without being a pushover. He has to be a good person who doesn't mistreat her. The problem is it's hard from a distance to tell the douchebags from the guys who are basically good but guarded on the surface. So a lot of women fall for douchebags hunting for a heart of gold they'll never find. And of course there are also crazy women who go for guys who abuse them, but I'm assuming you don't want to attract crazies.

 

That said if forced to choose most women will probably pick the confident, successful douchebag over the weak, pushover, "nice" guy. Hell, I'd probably pick the former assuming he wasn't abusive or unfaithful because I can't stand pushovers and at least the other guy would turn me on. I also wouldn't trust that the "nice guy" was really nice as opposed to simply insecure and spineless.

 

It really is a vicious cycle. A lot of (mostly inexperienced) men see the women dating the douchebags and assume that they intentionally chose to date a douchebag rather than it simply being them looking for a non-existent heart of gold as you depict. Then, these same guys get all bitter and mad about it and start to feel resentment toward women. The women in turn see the "nice guys" as just "bitter sexually inexperienced guys" and conclude that all men are either douchebags or bitter (or taken). Thus it's a self-perpetuating cycle that only gets broken once people are old/mature enough to see what's really going on. For some people that maturation process never happens.

[Sanman]

That said if forced to choose most women will probably pick the confident, successful douchebag over the weak, pushover, "nice" guy. Hell, I'd probably pick the former assuming he wasn't abusive or unfaithful because I can't stand pushovers and at least the other guy would turn me on. I also wouldn't trust that the "nice guy" was really nice as opposed to simply insecure and spineless.

 

I'm not sure about that. While you're worried about the weak nice guy, the raging douchebag will probably ruin your life. There are plenty in the middle to choose from if you are so inclined.

[torn_curtain]

I'm not sure about that. While you're worried about the weak nice guy, the raging douchebag will probably ruin your life. There are plenty in the middle to choose from if you are so inclined.

 

Right, but I meant if forced to choose between the two. Also, I was using douchebag in a looser sense, like somebody who is commitment phobic, not someone who would ruin my life.

 

I'd probably rather be in a FWB situation with a guy I found sexy who wasn't committed to me (assuming he wasn't screwing around while we were having sex for health reasons) than in a full blown relationship with a guy I didn't find at all attractive. Of course, I wouldn't want to be in either scenario, but I can understand why a woman who isn't able to find a more balanced guy who will commit to her might get involved with the sexy commitment phobe who at least turns her on.

[Sanman]

Right, but I meant if forced to choose between the two. Also, I was using douchebag in a looser sense, like somebody who is commitment phobic, not someone who would ruin my life.

 

I'd probably rather be in a FWB situation with a guy I found sexy who wasn't committed to me (assuming he wasn't screwing around while we were having sex for health reasons) than in a full blown relationship with a guy I didn't find at all attractive. Of course, I wouldn't want to be in either scenario, but I can understand why a woman who isn't able to find a more balanced guy who will commit to her might get involved with the sexy commitment phobe who at least turns her on.

 

 

I see this as a big problem with modern dating. Like it or not, doing this can often hurt your dating life. Whether conscious or not, the biggest mistake I see people make is setting a bar they have no interest in setting. All of a sudden, all the guys are compared to the fwb. Do I want to go out with guy x or stay in with the fwb? Well, guy x is not really doing it for me, so I will stay in. Meanwhile, you forget that guy x is a good relationship catch and guys like the fwb have no interest in really dating you and want someone hotter, better in some other way, etc. The same goes for men. I often see guys saying this girl isn't as hot as girl x I dated. Yeah, but girl X dumped your ass after 1-2 months of you buying her stuff and taking her out on dates moron.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Sanman

[ThsAmericanLife]

I see this as a big problem with modern dating. Like it or not, doing this can often hurt your dating life. Whether conscious or not, the biggest mistake I see people make is setting a bar they have no interest in setting. All of a sudden, all the guys are compared to the fwb. Do I want to go out with guy x or stay in with the fwb? Well, guy x is not really doing it for me, so I will stay in. Meanwhile, you forget that guy x is a good relationship catch and guys like the fwb have no interest in really dating you and want someone hotter, better in some other way, etc. The same goes for men. I often see guys saying this girl isn't as hot as girl x I dated. Yeah, but girl X dumped your ass after 1-2 months of you buying her stuff and taking her out on dates moron.

 

My original point exactly. Decide what your relationship goals are in the beginning and stick to that.

 

To me, FWB is nothing BUT a time-waster... not a means to an end.

[torn_curtain]

I see this as a big problem with modern dating. Like it or not, doing this can often hurt your dating life. Whether conscious or not, the biggest mistake I see people make is setting a bar they have no interest in setting. All of a sudden, all the guys are compared to the fwb. Do I want to go out with guy x or stay in with the fwb? Well, guy x is not really doing it for me, so I will stay in. Meanwhile, you forget that guy x is a good relationship catch and guys like the fwb have no interest in really dating you and want someone hotter, better in some other way, etc. The same goes for men. I often see guys saying this girl isn't as hot as girl x I dated. Yeah, but girl X dumped your ass after 1-2 months of you buying her stuff and taking her out on dates moron.

 

I agree with you, and this is why I've stopped selling myself short with the FWB arrangements. My point is I can understand why some women make these choices but I don't really think it's healthy.

[Ayla]

I agree with some of th OPs points and disagree with some of the points.

 

I know at least 2 guys that have been burnt so badly that they don't want a relationship. One of them really really likes a girl (it is obvious for all of us-friends to see) but is so scared that he doesn't know whether he wants to get into a relationship. So instead he unintentionally goes hot and cold with her. He has even openly said to me and numerous other friends, that he doesn't know what he wants. She knows this as well, and instead they are just friends. We can all see how much they like each other, he watches her every move when they are together, but at this point he is just too scared and confused to make that step into a relationship. He knows (and we all agree) that she is a great girl and they would be perfect together.

 

The other friend of mine-he doesn't want a relationship ...period. Again because of past relationships.

 

FWB - unless both parties agree on the fact that it is just sex, generally leads no where. I used have a FWB, and that was exactly what it was-just sex with no ulterior motive from either of us.

 

IMO real friends can't be FWB either-that is just to risky on the friendship part.

[quietGuy13]

I know what i want: HOt sex and a wonderful relationship.

[GivenUp0083]

I'm in my mid twenties (26), and I'm starting to be convinced the reason we keep running into guys who don't want a relationship, or isn't sure what he wants, or only wants friends-with-benefits is because they're so prevalent in our generation. Over the last year, I've gone out on dates only to be told that the guy wasn't sure what he wants, isn't "ready" for a relationship, only wants friends with benefits. Every single one.

 

As a 28 year old man, I've struggled through many relationships and the dating process. I will be as honest as possible when I say this: If a guy is unsure or only wants FWB, you should run if you have any emotional attachment or hopes for something more. It means he does not like you, he does not love you. Some men do have a need to find a companion in life, but all men have a need to get off.

 

I'm in an FWB situation right now. A few days ago I told him, calmly, that I 'd prefer he not mention other women he was (I assumed) sleeping with, as I'm not allowed jealousy in an FWB but I would like some boundaries. He responded that there was no one else he was interested in, that he focusing only on me... And that he'd been seriously considering how to bring up the topic of dating again, but was unsure how to broach it, or even how to begin. He has so little experience in relationships, and so many of them ending badly, he really isn't even sure how it should all go.

 

Look, if he wants to be with you, he'll ask if you can go back to dating. I don't buy this "inexperienced" excuse. He's using that as a reason to keep you around by giving you hope because if you knew how he really felt, you would be hurt and you would stop sleeping with him.

 

Having boundaries and whatever is noble and all, but you can't trust someone who is only using you for sex. There's no consequence for him if he ends up getting it from someone else because if he loses you, he won't care since he has another woman.

 

It got me thinking about whether this whole idea of discarding "uncertain" guys, guys who seem to want just rebounds or FWBs, while having some wisdom, is actually based on a misunderstanding of guys my age.

 

I don't understand this statement. Guys know right away if they really like you vs if they just want to eff you.

 

The cynical side of me says it's because men are pigs, and just want to use us without the commitment (FWBs) and for the ego rub (guys not over their exes.)

 

To defense of men (including myself), but society is lessening the value of a man in a relationship/marriage/provider role. Have you ever asked yourself this: What does a man have to gain or benefit from in a marriage? Think long and hard about that question. Ask yourself that without the consideration of just having a loved one to spend time with. Think of how many unhappy people (not just men) are married. Look at the divorce rate. Think about what a man risks to lose in a divorce. He stands to lose income, his home, his children. The wedding day is all about the bride, the engagement parties, the bridal showers, the ring....women have all these reasons other than "love" to get married and they rely much more on the emotional security of a man then men do of women.

 

Just some food for thought as I respect your desire to understand.

 

But my observations don't necessarily support this. Sure, some men are that way, just as some women really do just want to use a guy for his money, or just to have a ring on her finger and a kid in her lap, irregardless of the actual man she married. My observation, in real life, and reading forums like this, are that men are just as desperate for relationships as women... maybe even more so. Studies demonstrate married men fare far better in life than unmarried men... they're happier, they're healthier, they're wealthier. (Tellingly, married and unmarried women were virtually identical.)

 

I think, from observation, that men are desperate for a relationship until a certain breaking point. They are burned enough times, used to being single, self reliant.....they hit their 30's and realize they are happy as a single man, they enjoy having full control over their income, they like the freedom to do what they want whenever they feel like it without having to answer to anyone. Women go into their 40's and 50's still seeking marriage where I think men give up after a certain age.

 

So the majority of men want, need, relationships... but they don't know how to get them. They seem paralyzed by fear, by the inability to determine what it is they want precisely, and how to get it. Men are not taught to verbalize their feelings, they are not taught to examine their feelings. The last decade of changing gender roles has opened up more opportunities for women, which I LOVE, but it's also taken away some of the definitions of what it means to be a man, and there's been nothing to replace them.

 

Now you're catching on.

 

There's a phenomenon in Japan, where young men (and it effects only young men) feel so confused and socially alien from the people around them, that they literally lock themselves in their rooms for years at a time. They paper over their windows, "to shut out the sun." The author tastefully suggests that some of this might have to do with young women's total rejection of men. Young women no longer want to get married... they don't want to lose their economic independence and confirm to rigid gender roles of wife and mother. The men react to this rejection by literally removing themselves from society.

 

I've never heard of this but I find this interesting. Japan is literally on the other side of the world and their culture has far deeper history than that of ours here in America. Japan also has extremely high suicide rates which is not shared by the rest of the world. I don't know if I would compare Japan to our culture and relationships. Interesting though at the very least.

Perhaps there is a lesson in that for young American men as well. We see FWBs and rebounds as manipulative tools for men to get sex (and again, for some, they are), but maybe it's a lot less cynical than that, maybe it's that an FWB is easy, and young men don't know how to go from point A (an easy FWB, something safe that is comfortable and familiar) to point B (a committed relationship.)

 

Men have needs, they want sex. I think men have realized in this era that there are mind-games and things that can be said or done to fool a woman into sleeping with him by playing to certain emotional hot-buttons. It's like telemarketers: if no one bought from telemarketers, companies would stop investing in that sales strategy. Same goes for men who play these games: if they didn't work, men would stop doing it.

 

I'm not saying we should let guys off the hook. Women shouldn't sacrifice their want of a serious relationship because men are slow on the uptake. However, maybe it's time to approach these men with a little more understanding, give them a chance, not turn them away as soon as they utter that they're "not sure what they want."

 

I think that if you are searching for something in terms of a serious relationship, you need to learn to weed out those who are seeking something else. You do this with time. Go out on dates with men, but don't have sex with them until he's shown you that he is seeking a committed relationship. This is what dating is all about, and I consider both men and women at fault when I say that we have sex too early in the dating process.

 

I know why we do it... self-protection. Put our heart on a line with a guy who's not sure? It MUST mean he's not into me, it must mean he's a pig and a manipulator. It's a lot easier to brush off a guy who's unsure, but otherwise a genuine, kind-hearted, compatible guy, and move onto the next, then to open your heart and take that risk.

 

I personally just look for a connection. If there's something more there than just sexual attraction. You learn to do this with experience and time.

Maybe it's a perfect storm of mis-communication. He doesn't want to risk his heart, so he keeps it casual, tries to satisfy his relationship desire without really putting himself on the line. She doesn't want to risk her heart, brushes him off, and moves to the next. But where is this getting us? To forums full of angry young men, and lonely young women.

 

You're overanalyzing based on a few bad apples. Just move on from this. If you want to give a FWB situation a chance for something more that's your decision and I hope it works out for you. But typically it's best to move on and not waste your time on these guys. Life is short, and if you're sleeping with a dude, other dudes can sense that and aren't going to pursue you. I don't know what it is, but "slutty" girls or girls that have casual sex (not criticizing) typically have a hard time finding guys for relationships. I don't know what it is, they just do.

 

I won't tell anyone to risk your heart on a guy that would just use you for sex. It seems that anything less than a "yes I want a relationship with you" within a short time frame, without any sexual contact of any kind, will be enough to doom your future (and put out a "vibe," apparently) in the same philosophy vein of "He's Just Not That Into You."

 

Just cut out sexual contact early in the dating process. It's not that complicated.

 

My FWB is sweet, supportive, respectful and genuine. All my friends tell me to give him a chance. I'm choosing to take a risk, to open up my heart until I can't take it any more. Maybe it'll work, and maybe it'll fail. But I can't bring myself to brush off a guy I am so compatible with because he doesn't have the tools to go from point A to point B just yet.

 

If you have something great, no matter what the situation, go with it.

[somedude81]

It's not the 1st time somedude, I expressed that months ago.

Really? I must have missed that. So that's two women that are too far away

 

To me this is the problem. You guys wanting the challenge, when the fact is the girls who are hard to get, don't like sex, which is why they are hard to get.

 

That's why when I was younger I had guys all interested. And that is also why even a few years back I had guys friends who I wasn't interested in, trick themselves into believing I was just waiting for them to prove their worth.

 

Also I agree with the OP, it sucks being really attracted to someone and then having to pretend you aren't really interested. Personally I can't do it. If I am feeling it, I want to go with that, rather then suppressing my desires.

 

If you guys want to have a healthy amount of sex in your relationships, she should stop rejecting women who aren't being all chaste and coy with you.

 

I personally don't sleep around with tons of guys, if I do have an attraction to someone I am seeing and follow that through, it is incorrect to assume I am doing that with hundreds of other men too.

There is a difference between making a guy wait and being hard to get.

 

I don't see why a girl can't be into but still tell him, not until we're in a relationship. What ever happened to having willpower?

 

Once the relationship is going, lots 'o sex please.

Perhaps the OP should be happy that she is "screw-able"... and screw-able multiple times and routinely. I think most youngsters (sorry Disenchantedly Yours... anyone under 30 is a youngster to me)... start out wanting to be screwable, and then realize that's not quite enough.

That's one think I've never known about myself. If I actually am screwable. So far the survey's have said no.

 

This is dead on. and I agree completely.

 

I'm looking for a relationship, and I weed out guys who hit on me hard right away because they aren't usually looking for a serious relationship. Mostly just sex and 'see where it goes' kinda guys. Not what I'm looking for.

Yeah, that's how you do it.

 

But then this

I've never observed that it's shooting myself in the foot. If anything, I'm doing exactly what people on this thread are telling me to do... not waste time with someone who doesn't want me. If a guy doesn't make a move fairly early on, I have no way of gauging if it's shyness or platonic disinterest.

Sounds like you need to figure this out, or start going after a different type of men.

 

I get real sick of sitting across a dinner table from someone date after date, whom I'm either losing attraction for, or is frustrating me to the point where I always burst out," Look, are we 'just friends' or what, cause you're sending really mixed signals!" Yeah. Awkward.

How about taking charge? Drop some hints that you want him to make a move.

If guys don't want to sleep with me right away, what's the point of continuing to date them? I want a boyfriend who is really physically attracted to me... dating a guy who doesn't want to sleep with me right away is just a very expensive and confusing friendship.

Wow, you seem to not understand awkward guys at all.

 

A guy can have a really strong desire to have sex with you, but be too afraid to try and kiss you on the second date. Some guys need to be encouraged that they are on the right track.

 

 

 

where they can't do any more than HUG me, how desirable could they really find me? Call it the Ugly Girl Dilemma, but I'd rather have a guy think I'm super hot and then discover I also have an awesome personality, then have a guy decide I have an awesome personality and... eventually... want to sleep with me.

Yeah, you don't get it at all.

 

It has nothing to do with how you look. The guys were afraid. They've probably been rejected by a lot of girls. They needed time to loosen up and you didn't give it to them.

PS:

Okay, girl-nerd tip... Don't say "baka." Don't insert random Japanese words into your English conversations. I speak Japanese, and it drives me CRAZY, it's like holding up a big sign that says "I watch anime with subtitles cause I'm too pretentious for the dubbed but can't be bothered to learn more than a few catch phrases of the language!" If you're gonna speak Japanese... speak Japanese. It'll demonstrate you are cultured and interesting. Sorry-just BIG pet peeve of mine.

I took Nihongo for one and a half years, so I know more than just random anime words.

 

I said it because I know you know the language and it fit perfectly with how I felt about your previous post.

 

And no, I don't throw random Japanese words into talking with people, expect for one or two individuals I know in person.

I also take it that he's not a very sexual person, that our sexual compatibility wouldn't be there. Sex is very important to me, and a big part of what I'm looking for in a partner... if I'm more eager to jump in the sack that he is, it's probably not a good sign for our durability.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Just because I don't want to have sex right a way doesn't mean I don't want it.

 

I would absolutely love to have sex 2-3 times a day, every day. I just need to find a girl who thinks I'm screwable for once and who actually has a sex drive.