convince spouse to goto marriage counseling?

[jake999]

I normally don't seek outside help for problems but I cannot figure out what to do so I am hoping that some opinions from you all would help me.

 

I have been married to my wife for 8 years. We have gone through a lot together, including having more money than we know what to do with and not having enough for too long. We have 2 wonderful kids together. One child she had before we met and I fully legally adopted. I am especially thankful I did that now since our marriage seems to be ending and the adoption will help protect my rights to the child.

 

I have been the sole financial provider to our family for the whole time. This is partly because my earning potential was higher, and partly because we both agreed that having a stay-at-home mother would be beneficial for our children.

 

Now that our kids are growing older (13 & 9), she wants to attend college to get on a good career path. I am fully supportive of this and actually wish she had been more dedicated to that previously. She has completed one semester so far.

 

My job normally allows me to be home or in our city 95% of the time. However, about 3 months ago I was forced to begin traveling out of town a lot more (4 days per week). I took the family with on two of the trips and we had a great time since one of them was in a very fun area.

 

About a month ago I took one of my child's privileges away and my wife got very mad. I thought the punishment was justified but she said that I cannot just come home after being gone and start disciplining the children as if I never left. In hindsight, I agree that I was too strict and too reactionary. That night she slept in our guest bedroom. Unfortunately, I had to travel again the next night so I didn't even really try to reconcile with her.

 

She has been sleeping in that guest room ever since then. I requested to my work that my travel be cut down and I have been home the last 4 out of 6 weeks. She informed me 3 weeks ago that she was on the fence about splitting up and would be making her decision soon. I tried my best to remain positive and encouraged her that we should go to a marriage counselor.

 

She has been going out almost every night with two friends that she barely hung out with before. She has been friends with them for years but really only hung out with them once a month. Last week she confronted me about seeing a counselor and said, "if you are going to be traveling next week, how can we even see a counselor?" I was frustrated that I had been home this whole time and now that I had a trip coming up that she was going to blame not seeing a counselor on me. I told her that and she said basically that she wanted to see a counselor but based on my response she is no longer interested.

 

Two days ago she informed me that she saw a divorce attorney and that she wants to split. I really don't want that to happen. Her most common response is that it's time for her to do things for herself and stop putting me first, and the only way she can do that is on her own since she says I don't support her.

 

I feel that a counselor could help us tremendously and save the marriage but I cannot get her to go. Any suggestions?

[tojaz]

Its a hard spot Jake, there are lots of things you could say in order to get her into the counselors office, but if her heart isn't in it, then the counselor can't really help your marriage unless your wife opens up to the idea of reconciliation.

 

Right now shes looking for ammunition, things to use against you to make you the bad guy. She didn't sleep in the guest room over you disciplining your child and she didn't turn down counseling just because of your response. Those were just incidents used to set the D in motion.

 

Your best course right now is to look up the 180 on this board and see if you think it might help and to take a long hard look at what shes telling you both to see if there is any truth to it and to be sure you do nothing to reinforce her negative views of you, just becomes more ammunition.

 

Pay close attention to the changes shes making, theres more to this story.

 

TOJAZ

[Steen719]

 

Pay close attention to the changes shes making, theres more to this story.

 

TOJAZ

 

^^^^^^

I agree with this. Sorry.

[carhill]

I feel that a counselor could help us tremendously and save the marriage but I cannot get her to go. Any suggestions?

 

Accept that and file before she does. There are advantages to being petitioner.

 

If you want some definitive answers to the odd turn of events, have a PI tail her. Then, move forward.

 

I recognize some of what you shared as the classic marital rewrite with a sprinkle of mind-fµcking thrown in. That's not an accident.

 

My sympathies.

[Duckduckgoose]

Oh I hate to be the one to say this, but I smell an OM...

[jake999]

Thank you for the quick and insightful replies. I haven't talked to anyone about this because my support circle is very small and not that good. Just typing out my original post gave me a feeling of relief. I think I should see a counselor even if it's only to have a safe place to express myself without worrying about their reaction. My wife has been my sole confidant for many years and I can't rely on that anymore.

 

I have read some really good posts on the 180 and found it pretty interesting. I have been doing a lot of the items the past few weeks and they have felt good. I am very confident in myself, I have accomplished much more than I ever thought I would and I believe that all my arrows are still pointing up.

 

If I continue the 180 what kind of reaction should I expect from my wife? What is most typical? I work in a very structured industry so my thought process has been altered to not really do things "by the seat of your pants" or by "gut", so I'm looking for a little guidance on what to expect. She continues to engage me in previously-normal conversations about things going on with her friends and family. Based on the 180 I should be short with those kinds of things, but wouldn't that give the illusion that I am no longer interested myself? Or is that the point?

 

And yes, there is truth to some of what she is saying. I have been selfish in my pursuits because I thought the decisions were for the best of the family and that she was on-board. Her flaw in it is that she didn't express her frustration clearly or I didn't listen well enough to it. Either way, I know it can be fixed if she has interest. It seems like I need to find out what the interest level is or proceed onward assuming that it truly is over like she says. Any thoughts on how to do that?

 

I guess it's confusing to me because it was so sudden, her behavior is so different, and she was on the fence recently but not anymore.

 

It's ironic to me that I am extremely good at solving very complicated problems at work but I can't grasp this.

[Steen719]

Since you don't mention it, I just wondered if you have considered another man?

[jake999]

An OM is a possibility due to the frequent going out at night and sudden change. I've been looking at the cellphone records and I don't see anything on it other than a million texts and calls to her two female friends and an occasional family member.

 

The bank statements all line up with her being where she says she is going, but obviously doesn't tell who was there.

 

I don't want to take the easy way out and blame it on an OM without any proof.... but other than phone calls there is no proof I will likely ever find even if there was an OM.

[Steen719]

Well, some people think it is an easier way, but I am not so sure about that. In my way of thinking, there is never an excuse for cheating. All marriages have problems, but that is not the way to handle those problems and it causes so much pain for families. Anyway, there are other ways to find out if it is going to matter to you one way or another if she has someone else. Carhill suggested a PI and that is a good idea if you think that it is a real possibility and you want to know for sure. I think for a lot of us who found ourselves in your unfortunate situation, we needed to know.

 

Good luck to you.

[ThreeLegDog]

Accept that and file before she does. There are advantages to being petitioner.

 

Can you elaborate?

[carhill]

Better for a lawyer licensed to practice in the OP's jurisdiction to explain, as parameters vary. IME, the petitioner 'drives' the process and the respondent is forced to file a response with the court, 'contesting' the divorce, or faces a default judgment path. Also, the petitioner can file a number of motions with the court in the initial filing, regarding relevant issues, driving the motion process as well. For example, spousal support and custody parameters. The respondent must respond or the court can rule summarily. On and on. In our case, uncontested, the petitioner was the only party who could utilize the court's 'self-help' desk and could have filed for default summary judgment, though we utilized mediation and settlement in our case.

 

A lawyer can explain more thoroughly.

[bigmomma1974]

where is this 180 at?

[carhill]

Try the marriage builders site for more info on the 180. Type 'marriage builders 180' into Google.

[itllgetbetter]

Just to be clear, the 180 list is for you and it's not meant to win your spouse back.

 

 

180 List:

• Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.No frequent phone calls.
  
• Do not point out good points in marriage.
  
• Do not follow him around the house.
  
• Do not encourage talk about the future.
  
• Do not ask for help from family members.
  
• Do not ask for reassurances.
  
• Do not buy gifts.
  
• Do not schedule dates together.
  
• Do not spy on spouse.
  
• Do not say "I Love You".
  
• Act as if you are moving on with your life.
  
• Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
  
• Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
  
• When home with your spouse (if you usually start the conversation), be scarce or short on words.
  
• If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, do not ASK
  
• You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
  
• Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realizes what he will be missing.
  
• No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
  
• All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
  
• Never lose your cool.
  
• Don't be overly enthusiastic.
  
• Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
  
• Be patient
  
• Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
  
• Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
  
• Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
  
• Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
  
• Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
  
• Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
  
• Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
  
• Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared.
  
• Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
  
• Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
  

Edited September 23, 2011 by itllgetbetter

[Linda9999]

My first thought while reading your post was that there's another guy in the picture too. I am sorry, I hope that's not the case.

 

As for counseling, like someone already said, if she isn't into it it's a waste of time for her, but if you feel you would benefit then by all means go yourself. IC gave me clarity when I needed it last year.

[jake999]

I'm starting to lean towards there being an OM as well. I looked up some average PI rates and I think it's out of my budget.

 

However, I went to see a divorce attorney today. I was really happy with what he had to say and his rates were reasonable. I have used him in the past for some unrelated matters so I trust him as well. He said that in my state there is no reason to file first based on my situation, and that we are a no-fault state.

 

The attorney said it would be a good idea to open a new bank account without my spouse and have my paychecks deposited in there. That way I am in control of the finances (which I am not now, other than earning the paycheck). Since my wife is planning on leaving in the next few months he thinks this would help ensure that I can afford my own place and protect me from having her pay her attorney and move out on my dime. I also know that he is interested in ensuring that I have the money to pay him if and when the time comes, so he is biased.

 

I am more than willing to pay the rent on my wife's next place. My income is high enough that my roughly calculated child support alone would be above her likely rent amount.

 

I am still attempting the 180 process and bought the Divorce Remedy book and have been reading it. I still want reconciliation and I still think that our problems could be fixed with a positive mutual approach to marriage counseling. Having said that, if I open a new bank account and have my checks deposited there I am sure that it will cause an immediate rift between us.

 

What do I do??? One course of action is to open the new account, have my checks deposited into it, and let her know that I can and will pay for her rent. She expressed desire last week to have me assist her in finding a place since we live in my hometown and I know the area much better than her. I am fearful of her returning to her hometown which is what all of her friends and family want. That would cause her to move the kids out of their school and they would be further from me.... I really really don't want that. My attorney said there is nothing I can do to prevent that other than trying to negotiate it with her.

 

Oh yea, our 8yr married/10yr together anniversary is Monday. She is planning a day trip with her old female friend... I don't want her to go but that is the against the 180 theory and I don't think she'll goto dinner or anything like that with me. Ideas?

 

Argh! I'm confused, frustrated, and hurt!

[carhill]

Unless your jurisdictions laws and the expedience of the court in enforcing them are markedly different than Cali, I have a bad feeling about this.

 

Will your wife qualify for legal aid to prosecute this? Sometimes people who have amicable relations choose for the low/no income spouse to prosecute the lawsuit so as to qualify for certain aid in the legal process in order to cut costs.

 

My lawyer quoted ~50K for a strongly contested divorce. As it was, uncontested, mediated and settled, filing and lawyers fees cost me a bit under 2K. I have no idea what my exW spent.

 

With your exW possibly thinking about moving 'home', especially with the specter of an OM lurking about, and taking the kids unilaterally, I'd interview another couple lawyers for consistency.

 

TBH, unless there is 'bend' from her, I wouldn't be nice about this at all. So far, what bend has there been from her? She refused to attend counseling based on your one conflict with work. She's essentially living a single life while enjoying the security and lifestyle of being married to you.

 

I'd consider being more assertive. The one thing I learned from my D is how to get used to a woman being angry at me all the time. That really bugged me in the beginning. Now I just expect it from any woman. It is what it is. Water off a duck's back. Accept it and don't let it interfere with your path. Good luck

[itllgetbetter]

Carhill: Not ALL women are angry.

 

jake999: I wouldn't give up on your W not wanting to go to MC. Eight months ago, my H refused to go. After he moved out of our home almost four months ago, he still refused to go because, as he put it, his "heart wasn't in it." HOWEVER, about two weeks ago, he suggested that we go - each of us by ourselves, then a session together.

 

About your anniversary, it strikes me that many of these situations happen just before anniversaries.

 

I'd suggest dinner on your anniversary. If she says no, it's her loss, but at least that way you'll know you tried and were the bigger person about it.

[carhill]

Carhill: Not ALL women are angry.

 

Absolutely correct. Example... when my best friends wife called me an hour ago to tell me she was cancer-free, she was quite happy.

 

OTOH, in my own D and any of my male friend's D's, anger was a marked feature of their wives demeanor throughout. In fact, my best friend advised me often, when I was feeling down about my exW's attacks upon me, that 'she's angry'. He had been through it before, so was wise. Me, not so much.

[teerockness]

Oh yea, our 8yr married/10yr together anniversary is Monday. She is planning a day trip with her old female friend... I don't want her to go but that is the against the 180 theory and I don't think she'll goto dinner or anything like that with me. Ideas?

 

Okay... I mean, realistically, do you think this is a sign that reconciliation is imminent or even possible? This to me is basically a straight up "eff you" type move. I hate to give you the hard medicine, but you need to start protecting yourself.

 

Furthermore, if there is an OM - do you want to reconcile?

 

Do you have access to her cell phone records? If you have a shared phone account, you can look up the record of who she called online. That's how I snagged my ex-wife cheating.

 

Finally, I will also say that this anniversary, incredibly, might be the best time to have somebody see what she is up to. I'm pretty damn sure my ex-wife cheated on me the night of a special anniversary - not our wedding anniversary but the day we bought our house, which was a holiday and a special day for us until, well, you know. My take is that it's part of the re-writing process - they sometimes try to undo things that are special; remove their significance in the context of dismantling the relationship.

 

TR

[tojaz]

 

Pay close attention to the changes shes making, theres more to this story.

 

TOJAZ

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Just to be clear and to avoid creating to much suspicion on anyones part, I'm not referring to anything in particular. There are many people who are far too quick to beat the OM/OW drum.

 

The thing I saw in your story was mainly her new friends that raised my eyebrow, for many in a rocky spot of their lives, they look for guidance where ever they can find it (by the way welcome to LS ) unfortunately what they find isn't always as positive as it may seem but sure looks like rainbows and lollipops when they have a cheering section touting its praises. If her new friends are single/divorced/in legit bad marriage, what kind of picture do you think they would paint?

 

If you are going to stand for this marriage, you need to keep a cool head and that means not letting jealousy and suspicion take old. Don't be blind, but don't put her on trial either, there are lots of triggers for the situation you find yourself in, and they all have their own way of treating them and they rarely overlap.

 

Right now your job is to educate yourself on those triggers and get ahead of the curve.

 

TOJAZ

[robf1971]

I wouldn't give up on your W not wanting to go to MC. Eight months ago, my H refused to go. After he moved out of our home almost four months ago, he still refused to go because, as he put it, his "heart wasn't in it." HOWEVER, about two weeks ago, he suggested that we go - each of us by ourselves, then a session together.

 

About your anniversary, it strikes me that many of these situations happen just before anniversaries.

 

I'd suggest dinner on your anniversary. If she says no, it's her loss, but at least that way you'll know you tried and were the bigger person about it.

 

Same here, my wife took me to MC just to explain to me in front of the marriage counsellor how over our marriage was and how I just didn't "Get it". I then kept begging her to go back to work things out, her reply being the standard "It's a waste of time"

 

OnceI stopped the begging, I didn't mention MC to her again and just left it alone, and one day out of the blue she asked me to book an MC. Turns out the MC worked wonders for us.

 

When I think of how she ignored our 6th anniversary in 2010 and compare it with the wonderful 7th anniversary we've just celebrated, I think it goes to show it ain't over till the fat lady sings.

[robf1971]

. There are many people who are far too quick to beat the OM/OW drum.

 

True, but the OP needs to find this out before anything. Sadly a very high %age of these situations involve an OM/OW.

[robf1971]

Having said that, if I open a new bank account and have my checks deposited there I am sure that it will cause an immediate rift between us.

 

What do I do??? One course of action is to open the new account, have my checks deposited into it, and let her know that I can and will pay for her rent. She expressed desire last week to have me assist her in finding a place since we live in my hometown and I know the area much better than her. I am fearful of her returning to her hometown which is what all of her friends and family want. That would cause her to move the kids out of their school and they would be further from me.... I really really don't want that. My attorney said there is nothing I can do to prevent that other than trying to negotiate it with her.

 

Oh yea, our 8yr married/10yr together anniversary is Monday. She is planning a day trip with her old female friend... I don't want her to go but that is the against the 180 theory and I don't think she'll goto dinner or anything like that with me. Ideas?

 

Argh! I'm confused, frustrated, and hurt!

 

Yep, you are acting scared and indecisive, how do you think that looks in your wife's eyes? Do you think that makes her respect you more?

 

As someone who's reconciled my marriage I can tell you that playing Mr nice guy will not work ever, it just makes you a pushover. There's no need to be a jerk either. Just take strong,quiet and decisive actions.

 

She's bailing out on you and your scared to protect your bank account?, you need to man up. Just change the damn thing, then tell her you've done it .

[jake999]

Update on recent events since last posting.

 

I have been doing things on my own and not interacting much with her. But, today was our kids' sports day. We sat by each other for 4 hours and had normal observational conversations about the games and the kids. We didn't discuss anything about our relationship, plans, etc.

 

In reference to the day trip with her friend. It is something that she has been planning for the last month or so. It was supposed to happen last week but a scheduling problem came up. The timing is not indicative of anything to me since even on a perfect year it would be acceptable for one of us to delay an anniversary celebration by a day or two if something significant was occurring.

 

I told her that I would like to have dinner with her when she returns the next day and she agreed. (no begging). In sticking with the 180 concept, what do I do if she brings up the separation or moving out during dinner? One idea I had is that I can avoid it by cooking a really good home dinner for the whole family and celebrating it as a family instead of as a couple? I don't think she'll bring it up in front of the kids.

 

I know that the two friends of hers that she is leaning on are definitely biased. I had a personality conflict with one of them when we first met that played a major part of their friendship deteriorating until recently. The other friend divorced a physically abusive husband a couple years ago and generally dislikes me, although I do get along well with her boyfriend.

 

The problem I have with making bold moves like changing my bank account is because of fear of what she will do with our kids. I fear her packing up and moving them to go live with her mother in a different town and different school. The attorney said I'm powerless to prevent that.

 

I love the different viewpoints I get from you all on this forum. Thank you for the insight!