Am I the only one who finds the comparison between EA/PA to be offensive/insensitive?

[angie2443]

I guess the title says it it all. I don't see how anyone has the right to say that another person's pain is less or their situation is better because they "only" experienced an EA or they only experienced a PA.

[Snowflower]

angie, could you please point me to where posters were specifically saying that?

 

My thoughts were that the general consensus was that any type of A was an equal betrayal and that the type of affair really didn't matter...it was all betrayal.

[carhill]

OP, I know plenty of people personally who sincerely do not believe that an EA is an affair/infidelity/betrayal. A number of the MW's in my past life believed/believe this way. Their beliefs are valid for themselves. In the final analysis, they are responsible for their beliefs and behaviors, as am I. If their partner/spouse concurs, they do; if not, not. I have no control over that, only my own behaviors and boundaries.

[angie2443]

I didn't mean that the majority here did the comparison. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. There is a thread here in which one poster ask if he's the only one that thinks a PA is worse. I've seen other posters state that they don't think EA's are real, or that the damage done by a one night stand is much less than a long term EA. I understand that these things effect each person differantly and I don't have a problem when one person states that one situation (be it the EA or PA) would be worse for them than the other. It's one thing to say that a PA is more hurtful to me than an EA. It's another thing to say that PA's are worse.

[carhill]

Here's the thread in question

 

The OP was expressing his personal opinion as a man, apparently a man who has yet to experience either an EA or PA from any side. Was his opinion offensive? To me, no. I've had different life experience, markedly with affairs, so my opinion is different. It is what it is.

[angie2443]

Here's the thread in question

 

The OP was expressing his personal opinion as a man, apparently a man who has yet to experience either an EA or PA from any side. Was his opinion offensive? To me, no. I've had different life experience, markedly with affairs, so my opinion is different. It is what it is.

 

I didn't want to bring up this thread because I wasn't responding specifically to this thread. The title and some of what was said in the thread made me think of many threads I've read here that have dealt with the EA/PA comparison.

[Snowflower]

I was thinking about this thread-and the other thread which is active right now on this topic while on my run this morning.

 

I think the comparisons or the quantifying is really just a way for someone to deal with the pain of being a betrayed spouse.

 

Most BS really don't have anything else in their lives to which to compare their pain so they look to places like LS-and the stories here to compare and quantify what they are feeling.

 

I have to admit, I have read stories/threads here that have made me think, "well wow, I wish that was all I had had to deal with instead of my own situation with my H." I would never say anything publicly of course.

 

In the end, it is part of the healing process.

[carhill]

The realm of comparison and feelings surrounding that dynamic (EA versus PA) are as many-fold as there are unique and singular relationships and marriages in the world.

 

As an example, would my exW have been more 'offended', comparatively, if I would have had a one-night sexual experience with a stranger versus a multi-year EA with someone I had loved? Or the reverse, with myself as the BS? Hard to know. I really don't know. I could offer nearly any opinion from my perspective and it might be/likely would be offensive to someone. In the final analysis though, IMO, the person hurt is the final arbiter of offense regarding any comparison. In the example, if my exW was more offended/hurt by the ONS versus the EA, that's her truth, regardless of what I might think or feel.

 

As a topic of discussion, without involving personal examples or experience, I don't have strong feelings about others making comparisons. Their comparisons are valid, for them, and not binding upon you (OP) or I. If you find their comparisons offensive, you do. I respect that.

[Owl]

The only time that I've found such comparisons offensive is when a certain group of posters attempted to discredit my advice or to tell me that I had no business posting to certain threads because my wife's affair was "only EA".

 

Please note...all of those particual posters are now banned (sometimes repeateadly)...which speaks volumes about their posts/intent/mindset/etc...

 

I don't have an issue with the comparison...I take issue when the comparsion is used AGAINST someone in some fashion.

 

Haven't seen that happen so far in the "current thread".

[freestyle]

The only time that I've found such comparisons offensive is when a certain group of posters attempted to discredit my advice or to tell me that I had no business posting to certain threads because my wife's affair was "only EA".

 

Please note...all of those particual posters are now banned (sometimes repeateadly)...which speaks volumes about their posts/intent/mindset/etc...

 

I don't have an issue with the comparison...I take issue when the comparsion is used AGAINST someone in some fashion.

Haven't seen that happen so far in the "current thread".

 

Well said, Owl.

 

I'm only offended when the comparison is used to trivialize/minimize/invalidate someone's pain.

 

If someone's hurting, they're hurting.And invalidation can cause more pain.

[Snowflower]

Well said, Owl.

 

I'm only offended when the comparison is used to trivialize/minimize/invalidate someone's pain.

 

If someone's hurting, they're hurting.And invalidation can cause more pain.

 

I think we are getting back to the point the OP was trying to make in this thread.

 

There was a comparison made in that other thread that guys often find the PA worse than an EA. Does that invalidate the effects of an EA? There was even a mention that an EA is like a flirtation or a HS crush.

 

Anyone who has been through an EA knows that is so far from the truth and it could be looked at as an invalidation of someone's experience.

 

Again, the least-painful way to look at these types of comparisons is to realize that the poster who is making the judgment is trying to get a handle on what has happened to them.

[bentnotbroken]

I don't find it offensive. I just believe that some people don't think an EA is really an affair. I see them both as breaches of trust which usually illicit the same emotions from the one betrayed.

[Steen719]

OP, I know plenty of people personally who sincerely do not believe that an EA is an affair/infidelity/betrayal.

 

Yes Sir, that would be my H! He did both AP (first) and EA many years apart and it is too difficult to determine which hurt worse. They both hurt like hell and that would be the truth.

[carhill]

That's a great example and an equally good example of why and how you would find comparisons of and minimizing of an EA to be offensive.

 

Our psychologist called the LS EA an 'inappropriate emotional relationship'. It really helped me to focus on 'inappropriate' versus 'affair'. Behaviors can be inappropriate and unhealthy. My exW got to decide the depth and breadth of those parameters. That was the functionality of MC; clarity.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

That outside the MOST intense of EA's, that anything compares to a PA.

 

Unless it is an EA that has progressed to hours of calls/texts/emails, planning/scheming a PA and completely withdrawing from your spouse I find it laughable the comparison.

 

I also find the idea of soulmates so trite and contrived.

 

Men & women, Husbands & Wives are different. We may not share everything and have the same interests and openness in our relationships. You should have tried (and hard) to engage your spouse in conversations and thoughts and if they have told you they won't go there, not because they don't love you, just because it is not in them, then what is wrong with sharing them or discussing with others.

 

Women can share with sisters, friends & mothers. Men sometimes (almost always actually) can only share many emotional thoughts with women, so unless they want to make it physical, what is the big deal?

 

And if the woman is sharing/listening to the man and it doesn't progress further, again why is it a problem?

 

Yes an old boyfriend/girlfriend that you have an EA with could be an issue, but many many times what I have read here are blown out of proportion and yes there is a huge difference.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I don't find it offensive. I just believe that some people don't think an EA is really an affair. I see them both as breaches of trust which usually illicit the same emotions from the one betrayed.

 

In my experience women tend to feel strongly about an EA.

 

Think about it from a biological standpoint. It's important for a woman to keep the guy around.... an EA cuts to the very heart of that. For a man its important to make sure you are the father of the kid you are raising.

[Snowflower]

That outside the MOST intense of EA's, that anything compares to a PA.

 

Unless it is an EA that has progressed to hours of calls/texts/emails, planning/scheming a PA and completely withdrawing from your spouse I find it laughable the comparison.

 

I have found that most of these relationships outside of a marriage usually do progress to hours of calls/texts/emails. I read about them all the time here in the Infidelity forum and in the OW/OM board. Usually it is something along the lines of, "I found a cellphone bill with over 900 texts between my spouse and their coworker."

 

Or, "MM and I talk all day at work via email and phone calls. Since we both work for the same company, this is easy to do."

 

Just take a browse around these boards...it's all here.

 

And yes, the WS does usually completely withdraw from the spouse.

 

Not that it matters, but in my own situation my H pretty much became a stranger to me and when I looked, the evidence was all right there on our family calling plan. I know they talked at work on the company phones and emailed each other via company email a lot...more than I will probably ever know.

 

Nope, EA's are alive and well and all too common.

 

I also find the idea of soulmates so trite and contrived.

 

Yes, so do I! The phrase makes me want to puke!

Men & women, Husbands & Wives are different. We may not share everything and have the same interests and openness in our relationships. You should have tried (and hard) to engage your spouse in conversations and thoughts and if they have told you they won't go there, not because they don't love you, just because it is not in them, then what is wrong with sharing them or discussing with others.

 

Oh, I agree that men and women are very different in terms of how they view and handle relationships.

 

I also agree that women would be much more content in romantic relationships if we would stop expecting men to be like women and converse and share everything we are feeling.

Women can share with sisters, friends & mothers. Men sometimes (almost always actually) can only share many emotional thoughts with women, so unless they want to make it physical, what is the big deal?

 

I absolutely agree that men will usually only share emotions with women. It's hard to imagine two guys having a deep conversation about their feelings on a hunting trip, lol!

 

Men should share their feelings (if they wish to) with their SO. That is part of the bonus of having a relationship with a woman as far as a guy is concerned.

And if the woman is sharing/listening to the man and it doesn't progress further, again why is it a problem?

 

What "woman" are you talking about here? The man's wife or SO? No problem. Barring that, if he can't talk to his SO for some reason...then how about a female family member?

 

There is no reason for a committed man to be sharing on a deep emotional level with another woman.

 

Wait, unless his SO is aware of these conversations. I get that some would be okay with this.

Yes an old boyfriend/girlfriend that you have an EA with could be an issue, but many many times what I have read here are blown out of proportion and yes there is a huge difference.

 

Not my observation here on LS or IRL because many times this emotional sharing with another woman is a big problem...usually because it is kept a secret from the BS.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Snowflower

[DarkPrince]

Here's the thread in question

 

The OP was expressing his personal opinion as a man, apparently a man who has yet to experience either an EA or PA from any side. Was his opinion offensive? To me, no. I've had different life experience, markedly with affairs, so my opinion is different. It is what it is.

 

Ive actually experienced both. Thats why I made the thread. I dont mean to down play EA's at all. I realize that to some people they are extremely painful. I apologize if I made it seem that they weren't. I was just stating how they effected me. Everyone is different. To me a PA is the ultimate act of betrayal and disrespect. Others merely view it as an extension of the EA.

[carhill]

I was out of town on business and had sex with a hooker. She's a regular I see when I'm visiting that city.

 

I reconnected with an old love long distance and we rekindled our past emotional bond and discourse, though we haven't yet pressed flesh in the real and current. We're talking about that.

 

These are scenarios. Who decides which is more 'offensive'? IMO, the spouse/partner of the person engaging the scenarios.

 

As an individual man, you apparently find the realm of the sexual fluid swap to be more offensive. That's valid. Other people may feel similar, or different. Equally valid.

 

These days, women, including wives and girlfriends, have sex with other men whom they do not love nor have an attachment to. They like sex. My exW called it 'sport-fµcking'. It's actually not that new but we talk about it more openly now. To you, that sport-fµcking evidently is more offensive than a woman who has an emotional connection to another man, whether short or long term, and one where she de-prioritizes your primary relationship. Many of the MW's I've known even share their private marital business with me, like your performance in the bedroom. Hmm...

 

IMO, it's really hard to make blanket generalizations. People and relationships are so individual, even crossing gender lines. To date, I've seen no relevant commonalities. Of course, I'm not dead yet so am open to new potentials.

 

I personally find the whole gamut inappropriate and injurious to healthy relationships and regret my historical participation in any of it, even incidentally. Others will have their own perspectives. Thanks for sharing yours.

[DarkPrince]

Here's 2 scenarios I will use

 

1) EA:Everyday I go off to work and my wife calls her ex and spends hours each day rekindling the old flame they had. They reminisce, joke, and flirt about old time. They laugh and cry and share intimate thoughts and details of their lives. They live 1200 miles away and there is no chance that they will ever be in contact with each other, and it ends up just being a phone relationship.

 

2) PA:My wife and I have a big fight. I storm out and leave for the night. She gets drunk, and one of the male neighbors who overheard the fight comes over to comfort her.. They end up having a night of passionate sex, and when the night is over she is overcome with guilt and never speaks to the guy again, and erases the incident from her mind.

 

The first scenario would annoy me, but I would be fine with it since it never turns physical.

 

The second one would devastate me to the point of me doing something stupid and ending up in jail. If I managed to restrain my anger I would never be able to look at her with anything but contempt. I would leave her and never contact her again.

 

I understand the significance of the EA, but it doesnt bother me if it stays an EA. A PA on the other hand, even if its a one night stand is 1000x more devastating to me. I dont know why that is, but thats the way Ive always felt.

Edited September 23, 2011 by DarkPrince

[Circular]

Here's 2 scenarios I will use

 

1) EA:Everyday I go off to work and my wife calls her ex and spends hours each day rekindling the old flame they had. They reminisce, joke, and flirt about old time. They laugh and cry and share intimate thoughts and details of their lives. They live 1200 miles away and there is no chance that they will ever be in contact with each other, and it ends up just being a phone relationship.

 

2) PA:My wife and I have a big fight. I storm out and leave for the night. She gets drunk, and one of the male neighbors who overheard the fight comes over to comfort her.. They end up having a night of passionate sex, and when the night is over she is overcome with guilt and never speaks to the guy again, and erases the incident from her mind.

 

The first scenario would annoy me, but I would be fine with it since it never turns physical.

 

The second one would devastate me to the point of me doing something stupid and ending up in jail. If I managed to restrain my anger I would never be able to look at her with anything but contempt. I would leave her and never contact her again.

 

I understand the significance of the EA, but it doesnt bother me if it stays an EA. A PA on the other hand, even if its a one night stand is 1000x more devastating to me. I dont know why that is, but thats the way Ive always felt.

 

I think most if not all men have this point of view, as stated by many who posted in the thread. This is very much the 'norm' and a major difference between how men and women view relationships.

 

The thing I'd like you to think about though is that your assumption is that in scenario #1 that all things remain constant. That is, you never move, he never moves, he never travels to where you live and vice versa. The problem with #1 is that it's like a tumbleweed, willing to look dead and remain dormant until the water comes around. It paves the road for opportunity, the bond is built and being reinforced every conversation she has. The stronger that bond the higher propensity for something to happen when the opportunity arises. Which is worse is in the mind of the SO.

[carhill]

Here's a scenario, drawing from personal experience:

 

My exW and I flew about 2500 miles across country to go to a concert. Unbeknown to her, my EA partner happened to be visiting family in the same area. I arranged things so I could meet up with that person subsequent to my exW's departure, the first time I had seen that person in nearly a generation. We never had sex, neither in the past nor subsequently. We weren't 'ex'es'. She was a past MW, someone with who I had been very involved with long ago and whose marriage had nearly been destroyed as a result of our decade long EA.

 

Now, by your criteria, my exW should have been 'annoyed' but not 'devastated', since it was only an EA. I could have said 'she's only an old friend and we were just catching up' but that would have been a lie. Once I realized the *feelings*, I told her immediately. She was angry and hurt and, as the reality sunk in, devastated, as much about the *feelings* as about the *deception*.

 

The lesson in this isn't that you're right or she's right. The lesson is that both of you are right for yourselves and neither of your perspectives, even as a comparison, are offensive nor insensitive. They are what they are, your perspectives. I respect both as valid.

 

Oh, one last thought.... I've flown over 6000 miles in the past to be with a woman I loved and I've seen plenty of examples of the reverse. In this day and age, distance is not an inhibition for both appropriate and inappropriate romantic/emotional/sexual relations. An 'innocent EA' with a distant old ex can quickly blow up into a full-on PA. Mine didn't because that was my boundary. It could have, as quickly as my exW had boarded the plane. Others have different boundaries. Good luck.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Here's 2 scenarios I will use

 

1) EA:Everyday I go off to work and my wife calls her ex and spends hours each day rekindling the old flame they had. They reminisce, joke, and flirt about old time. They laugh and cry and share intimate thoughts and details of their lives. They live 1200 miles away and there is no chance that they will ever be in contact with each other, and it ends up just being a phone relationship.

 

2) PA:My wife and I have a big fight. I storm out and leave for the night. She gets drunk, and one of the male neighbors who overheard the fight comes over to comfort her.. They end up having a night of passionate sex, and when the night is over she is overcome with guilt and never speaks to the guy again, and erases the incident from her mind.

 

The first scenario would annoy me, but I would be fine with it since it never turns physical.

 

The second one would devastate me to the point of me doing something stupid and ending up in jail. If I managed to restrain my anger I would never be able to look at her with anything but contempt. I would leave her and never contact her again.

 

I understand the significance of the EA, but it doesnt bother me if it stays an EA. A PA on the other hand, even if its a one night stand is 1000x more devastating to me. I dont know why that is, but thats the way Ive always felt.

 

 

But you really stretched the envelope with it being an old flame & hours upon hours each day..... Talk share ideas, talk family and ups and downs..... But an adult knows the line not to cross.

 

A PA crosses that line no ifs ands or buts......

[Owl]

OK, let's use the EA that my wife had as a point of dicussion.

 

Started out simply as an "in game friendship" where they talked online while playing an MMORPG. Theoretically no chance they'd ever meet in person.

 

Started "crossing that line" in discussing personal issue, emotional issues, etc...

 

Expanded from game to IM/email sessions for several hours a day OUTSIDE of the "in game" interface.

 

Then crossed the line further into several phone conversations for multiple hours/week.

 

Got to the point of exchanged "I love you's" and the "what if we were together" fantasies.

 

When d-day arrived about 3-5 months into all of this, they were planning on meeting (wife had even suggested to me that we meet him at an upcoming event within the next few weeks), and discussing "where all of this was going". The fantasy aspect in all of this was ENORMOUS by this point.

 

When confronted, the wife was "in love with him, falling out of love with (me)". His immediate response was to buy her plane tickets so that she could go live with him...although they'd never met in person.

 

From my perspective...I can't minimize this. It was huge. It was way, way beyond some petty flirting, spending too much time talking to someone, a 'crush', etc...

 

Worse than a PA? Probably not. Less than one? Don't know...haven't experienced the latter. But frankly, unless you've had to deal with both at a similar "level"...I don't think anyone CAN truly make a comparison and/or call one worse than another.

 

Like I said before...I typically don't care unless someone tries to complain that those that EA just are somehow dealing with something less traumatizing or can't understand.

[Sweetgold]

I agree with OWL post.

 

I feel that while yes a PA is more heartbreaking when discovered but you also need to understand that an EA can be just as heartbreaking because most of them lead to a PA. If the two people involved are living close by or feel that they have to get together ALONE for what ever reasons they come up with they can and in a lot of cases end up in a PA.

 

The EA is almost a build up to a PA. The EA sometimes gets the ball rolling. Two people talk to each other often enough that eventually they both start to have so called feelings for they're so called friend and then conversations that lead to sex. Then they start fantasizing about being together sexually based on the flirting and "what if" conversations. Then they start to feel like they have to be with this person and the rest is history. This is the reason that most woman are hurt by an EA.

Also every woman married or not, if she is in a committed relationship does not want to feel like her husband or boyfriend may or may not have romantic feelings for someone else. A friendship even though there may be some flirting involved does not get to the point where you hide the calls and whatever your conversation was about from you SO.