Civility

[SoMovinOn]

Fair enough, SMO, but not sure how to connect your new examples to the example being discussed. Not sure which "knuckleheads" or "morons" you thought Tami was responding to - such that, on second thought, ignoring them would be better than a jab. As I've mentioned previously, the more generic jabs could be meant for most posters or just for a few posters. It isn't clear.

 

The "Who" doesn't really matter. Trying to discuss in more general terms, knowing my knuckleheads and morons may be different from your knuckleheads and morons (and I have no doubt *I* am viewed as the knucklehead or moron by some people). All the more reason why ignoring them is the best answer in most cases, especially if the goal is to maintain some semblance of civil discussion.

[SoMovinOn]

I really do see a lot of support offered to people here who are trying to deal with the reality of an EMA.

 

So do I. I would say most posters here, maybe 99% of them do a fine job of managing civil and helpful discussions, in spite of the fact that many are or have been suffering in some way themselves.

 

It really only takes one really bad poster to bring a forum down and send most everyone running for somewhere else. I've seen it happen more than once. Unfortunately, here, we probably have at least two or three who seem bent on simply cutting and pasting their own message of anger and hate into pretty much every reply and every thread.

 

 

"Affairs" is a supercharged subject.

"Support" is subjective.

 

On the other hand, though, when people come here looking for "support" in viallinizing the clueless ("nonsexual" , shrewish, fat, boring) wife at home, or in implications that their love exists in a somehow higher realm that can only be comprehended by other women who are involved with a man who's married to someone else …

 

and maybe most of all, in justifying dishonesty,

 

That's usually when the hackles and claws come out.

 

I think you're hitting pretty close to my OP here, especially with the latter half of that paragraph. Affairs *is* a supercharged subject. Affairs involve being in love - and love is never rational. Love is blind. One can pretty safely assume most people "in love" will feel their love exists on a somewhat higher realm that can only be understood by those who have known the experience.

 

Of course, if that love exists in an affair, there will be justifying. Most people don't get involved in an affair with no concept of it being wrong. Most people involved in affairs *do* care that there is the potential for someone, or everyone, to get hurt - emotionally and possibly physically. That is exactly why most affairs are kept secret.

 

I think those concepts are a given, with only a rare instance where they might need to be pointed out again. Pointing them out repeatedly would seem to almost never be needed. Certainly, pointing out "The married man you are involved with is married and has a wife" could never possibly be needed unless we somehow came across a new poster who had never heard of marriage and didn't understand what it was.

 

That the basic premise of an affair - dating a married person and justifying it, would raise your hackles, might indicate this is not a good place for you to be, right? This *is* a place where people who *are* involved in affairs come to discuss them.

[SoMovinOn]

When a poster responds with a post that shakes up their perception of their reality or they point out something that they have buried or not acknowledged, people tend to get defensive and sometimes assume wrongly that it's not support that is offered. A lot of people in affairs want to keep the blinders on and when something is said that hits a sore point, they get defensive.

 

Clarification, I am not talking about posts that break the TOS by rudeness or name calling.

 

IMO, those in affairs, (been there too) can have tunnel vision and tend to have a limited vision as to what the reality of the affair really is vs what they want it to be and sometimes when something said threatens that reality, the reaction is over the top.

 

I agree. My OP had nothing to do with tough love posts, harsh reality posts, posts which are difficult for the OP the read/hear, posts with which the OP (or others) might disagree... those are all very much expected on a forum like this.

 

I was most assuredly referring to posts which violate the TOS, but, even more so, posts in which the user has managed to skirt the TOS, while still having the purpose of being intentionally hateful, mean, inflammatory or degrading. In some cases, you can almost see the poster patting themselves on the back for being so amazingly clever and witty. There is no place for such posts here.

[Mme. Chaucer]

That the basic premise of an affair - dating a married person and justifying it, would raise your hackles, might indicate this is not a good place for you to be, right? This *is* a place where people who *are* involved in affairs come to discuss them.

 

Very archly put, for a civil guy.

 

Hackles and all, I think this is a great place for me to be.

 

I have been on every side of the equation. I lived for years with a chronic cheater. I cheated. I messed around with a married man. And, now I am married to a man who was divorced from his first wife as a result of his own cheating.

 

I am completely in touch with my various states of mind from all of those phases, including how I justified what I was doing, and, in fact, I have a very keen perspective on how all those roles I held are related to each other in my life.

 

Also, I believe with all of my heart that needing to justify things that we inherently believe are wrong in order to keep on doing what we "want" is extremely toxic. I'm not talking specifically about EMA's here, either. I'm talking about the damage done to ANYONE who needs to create a shield of lies, rationalization, and justification to keep on living the life that they have.

 

 

If you DON'T think that your affair is wrong (and I haven't read all your posts, but I believe you are in this category) I might have a moral beef with you, and I might choose to express that. What I really feel strongly about, though, is when people are turning from their own value system and jeopardizing their own self-worth because they need to have what they want.

[SoMovinOn]

You can always use the ignore button.

You can report the offending posts and, in time, the offender gets banned.

You can leave LS.

Several options that accomplish what you seek.

 

All very true, but not as black and white as they may seem. While there may be one or a few posters whom should clearly be ignored in entirety, ignoring someone based on one or even a number of inflammatory posts might mean I'd miss something helpful they'd say in other posts. Everyone has their moments, right? (including me)

 

Reporting? Honestly, I'd rather deal with someone myself. Admittedly, that is more the culture/circles I tend to live in, so, it's my issue. However, in a broader sense - reporting someone only changes who gets to offer their opinion. It works fine for clear and blatant violations of the TOS, but, even then, some bias will come into play, but it does little for those posts which are crafted to skirt the TOS, but whose meaning is pretty clear.

 

Leave LS? I have considered that, but, there are times when I feel like doing so would leave newcomers among a pack of rabid wolves. It is exactly the response the few worst offenders would like to see.

 

 

Better yet, do nothing. Because acting in anger gets one bottle busted and "escorted" out by Guido, who is 6'4" and can bench press a Volkswagen.

 

Unless you're 6'7" and can bench press a Bentley. ... or, 4'8" and you're packing a 9mm.

 

 

Yup. Ignore them. Because to "return fire" immediately makes YOU one of THEM - no longer part of the solution but part of the problem.

 

In most cases, yes.

 

 

Its an inherent risk in public forums on inflammatory topics. The alternative? A closed board where everyone speaks in unison and in harmony. While "civil" (as everyone agrees) I question how anyone can grow if only faced with like-minded posters. I call it dogma - a refuge for the simple-minded.

 

That point keeps coming up, and I totally disagree with it. It's not a black and white thing where either everyone agrees or disagrees. People *can*, and do, have different viewpoints, while also sharing some commonalities, and still manage to be civil and respectful of each other. I have never suggested, nor would I ever suggest, that the best thing for anyone here would be to simply get a bunch of responses which agree with them or simply support their OP.

 

We only learn from disagreement, or, at least, something which is counter to or new to what we already know or believe.

 

 

My .02 if its worth even that.

 

I thought it was pretty good. I might go as high as a nickel!

[whichwayisup]

So do I. I would say most posters here, maybe 99% of them do a fine job of managing civil and helpful discussions, in spite of the fact that many are or have been suffering in some way themselves.

 

It really only takes one really bad poster to bring a forum down and send most everyone running for somewhere else. I've seen it happen more than once. Unfortunately, here, we probably have at least two or three who seem bent on simply cutting and pasting their own message of anger and hate into pretty much every reply and every thread.

If each person, before hitting that reply button would stop and think first (maybe ask themselves is this a catty/rude/intentional shot) before posting and not just react and hit reply asap, then maybe some of the in fighting and pot shots would be less. Each person IS capable of policing themselves.. And yes, all it takes is one person to make a snide comment and then all the reaction follows.. It really isn't a big effort to stop and think first..

[SoMovinOn]

Very archly put, for a civil guy.

Hackles and all, I think this is a great place for me to be.

 

I had to look up "archly"...

 

I am sorry you misunderstood the spirit in which I asked the question. I was sincerely asking. I was looking at what you offered - the basics of an affair get your hackles up, and this is a place where affairs are discussed.

 

I don't like my hackles up. I don't like being angry. I have various ways of avoiding being angry - the first and foremost being avoiding things or people which are likely to make me angry. If I can't do that, then I have to change my perspective and attitude.

 

 

Also, I believe with all of my heart that needing to justify things that we inherently believe are wrong in order to keep on doing what we "want" is extremely toxic. I'm not talking specifically about EMA's here, either. I'm talking about the damage done to ANYONE who needs to create a shield of lies, rationalization, and justification to keep on living the life that they have.

 

I know there is a different option here. First of all, I think most people don't do things they think are wrong. I think most people don't continue to do things they think are wrong. If they do either, I think it's possible they do so without attempting to justify it - they accept that it is wrong and they choose to do it in spite of that.

 

... or maybe it's just me that can do that. As a matter of fact, that is the *only* reason I accept for me doing something wrong - is because I want to.

 

I speed, almost always. Not 5 or 10 over the limit, I mean like, triple digit speeds. It's illegal, and, therefore, wrong. Sometimes I get pulled over. Sometimes, I get a ticket (although, that is oddly rare). I never offer an excuse to the cop - I pull over immediately (sometimes before the cop is even behind me - I know when I'm nailed), I admit to speeding, I admit I had no reason to be doing so, other than that I enjoy it. It's a risk I take. Most times I get away with it, sometimes I don't.

 

I do, or have done a number of other things, which I won't get into here, that are wrong, usually illegal, but sometimes just morally. I only ever do them because I choose to do them. I don't need any other "justification".

 

 

If you DON'T think that your affair is wrong (and I haven't read all your posts, but I believe you are in this category)...

 

I totally think my affair is wrong. I very much wish we could do it "the right way" (i.e., she and I get D, then we date). Early in our relationship, she and I both planned to wait until we both got D. Looking at the reality of the situation and all factors involved, we realized that could be some number of years, at the very least, a year or two. At that point, we made a choice to be involved in an A, because we didn't want to way years to enjoy our relationship. No justifications to make it right - we simply chose to do what is wrong, because we want to.

 

Do I feel bad about that? Yes.

I would feel worse missing out on the relationship she and I have.

[fooled once]

Hi SoMovinOn,

I really like your posts, but I hope you don't mind if I take issue with this one.

 

I think it gets problematic when anyone wants civility, but accepts jabs as they feel appropriate. It becomes problematic because different people have different ideas on what a jab is, and if it was really called for. I feel that my threads were littered with several uncalled for jabs. Obviously the people that posted them felt differently. Very differently.

 

What I am trying to say is we are to be civil to each other, jabs are never appropriate.

 

Thank you for reading, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.

I hope everyone has a restful weekend.

 

I agree with your post.

[pureinheart]

"Affairs" is a supercharged subject.

 

"Support" is subjective.

 

I really do see a lot of support offered to people here who are trying to deal with the reality of an EMA. I don't mean only for those who are trying to get out of one, either. I see honest reaching out often met with honest efforts to support and help.

 

On the other hand, though, when people come here looking for "support" in viallinizing the clueless ("nonsexual" , shrewish, fat, boring) wife at home, or in implications that their love exists in a somehow higher realm that can only be comprehended by other women who are involved with a man who's married to someone else …

 

and maybe most of all, in justifying dishonesty,

 

That's usually when the hackles and claws come out.

 

We all at times have instances of claws coming out. I think a lot more than I actually post because what purpose would it really serve. We can state the facts_ period (our facts BTW), it is up to the individual to listen and make their own decisions from there.

[Owl]

As you may have seen, I have pondered that stance further. In my original thoughts, I was applying to concept to RL. Thinking about a social gathering where everyone is civil. Some drunk dude shows up and starts being rude to some of the women. I will always be civil at first... something like "Hey dude, she's not interested in talking to you. Why don't you go sit over there?"

 

... and you can continue on that way, to a point, but, there are some knuckleheads who just refuse to get it. They don't want to be civil. They *want* to be rude and obnoxious. In that case, it may get to the point where physically helping him to relocate becomes the best option, possibly, completely relocating him to somewhere other than the entire social gathering.

 

It's not something that happens often, but, the few times it does, meeting force with force *is* the most appropriate response. The other option would be, the knucklehead becomes such a disruption, everyone else leaves the social event, leaving knucklehead there alone. ... but why should everyone else leave because of one moron?

 

So... applying that same logic here - if there is one, or if there are a few, posters whose *only* purpose here is to be rude and disruptive, then it might be possible the best way of dealing with them is to meet force with force.

 

However, as I have said, I have further pondered that original line of thinking. Here in a forum, where we have only the written word, acknowledging a moron seems to more often just further inspire them. The best answer then for someone like that is to simply ignore them. If no one responds to them, they have no fuel for their fire and, eventually, just go away (or, fall into line with more civil postings).

 

Again...the only person that anyone can truly control (and many fail here from what I've seen) is themselves.

 

I can decide if Owl is going to be civil or not...whether or not anyone else will be is quite simply outside of my scope of influence and control.

 

IF I encounter someone on this site that I feel is NOT being civil (one of the knuckleheads you described, perhaps), THEN the ONLY POSSIBLE METHOD I HAVE TO ATTEMPT TO CORRECT THIS ISSUE IS TO PLACE IT IN THE HANDS OF THE MODERATOR.

 

He's the one charged with enforcing the TOS, and has the tools (and more importanly, the authority) to do so.

 

From my perspective...it's a waste of time trying to convince others to be more civil.

 

Those that aren't civil, aren't BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BE.

 

Let the authority designated to manage those situations handle them appropriately.

 

There's no value in complaining, or attempting to change or chastize those that don't conform to your perception of civility. You have no authority or ability to change them...you can only change yourself.

 

I don't get it...what's really left to say on the subject?

[whichwayisup]

Great post Owl! I think pretty much everyone would have to agree with you on this.

 

Especially:

 

Again...the only person that anyone can truly control (and many fail here from what I've seen) is themselves.

 

I can decide if Owl is going to be civil or not...whether or not anyone else will be is quite simply outside of my scope of influence and control.

 

 

Those that aren't civil, aren't BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BE.

 

 

There's no value in complaining, or attempting to change or chastize those that don't conform to your perception of civility. You have no authority or ability to change them...you can only change yourself.

[stillafool]

As others have pointed out on a number of occasions, there are forums for pretty much anything. If all you wish to do is spew vile and venom and degrade others, believe it or not, there are places for that.

 

 

Are you the new moderator? BTW there are also forums that do nothing but support cheating and cheaters. One wishing to discuss their marital affairs can also visit those forums and get all the sympathy and support they wish with other cheaters as well.

[SoMovinOn]

There's no value in complaining, or attempting to change or chastize those that don't conform to your perception of civility. You have no authority or ability to change them...you can only change yourself.

 

That is never an approach I would take anywhere in life. We all *can* change things. We can influence people and events. We can point out the negative and ask for something better. We can't *make* anyone do anything, but we can certainly point them in a positive direction and hope they take it, knowing most won't.

 

Yes, there are some people, when you ask if the glass is half empty of half full, will dump out the glass and toss the empty glass on the floor - then tell you it's empty and broken. There are some who will fill it up an place a full pitcher next to it and tell you it is full and it will remain full for as long as you like it.

 

So what? I just can't buy into the idea that everyone should do nothing based on the false premise they cannot possibly ever have a positive influence. I can't buy into the idea that only the designated "police" can provide guidance on positive changes.

 

Not me man. I ain't buying it.

[SoMovinOn]

Are you the new moderator?

 

Why do you ask? Are only moderators allowed an opinion here?

 

BTW there are also forums that do nothing but support cheating and cheaters. One wishing to discuss their marital affairs can also visit those forums and get all the sympathy and support they wish with other cheaters as well.

 

Yes. And there are forums specifically for BS's, where they can get all the sympathy and support they wish. There are even forums where BS's can vent their anger and spend their lives berating the evil "hoorz" that forced their H into an affair with them. There are forums where Corvette enthusiasts can talk about how much they love Corvettes and hate Mustangs. There are forums for pretty much anything you can imagine.

 

This forum, however, particularly, this section of this forum is for;

"The Other Man / Woman The other side of the story: Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner."

 

There are other sections of this forum appropriate for those dealing with other potential aspects of affairs, such as;

 

"Infidelity - In an affair or suspect your significant other? Share your experiences and concerns here."

 

"Breaks and Breaking Up - It happens to most everyone at some point in life! Share your experiences!"

 

"Separation and Divorce - Considering ending your marriage? Going through a divorce? Let us know!"

 

"Second Chances - Called it off but doubting the decision now? Someone wants you back? Let us know about it!"

 

"Coping - Learning to deal with one's emotions and loss."

 

Clearly, it makes no sense for one who is not interested in "Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner." to spend time in this section of the forum. It makes even less sense for anyone who finds such support and discussion offensive.

[whichwayisup]

That is never an approach I would take anywhere in life. We all *can* change things. We can influence people and events. We can point out the negative and ask for something better. We can't *make* anyone do anything, but we can certainly point them in a positive direction and hope they take it, knowing most won't.

 

Yes, there are some people, when you ask if the glass is half empty of half full, will dump out the glass and toss the empty glass on the floor - then tell you it's empty and broken. There are some who will fill it up an place a full pitcher next to it and tell you it is full and it will remain full for as long as you like it.

 

So what? I just can't buy into the idea that everyone should do nothing based on the false premise they cannot possibly ever have a positive influence. I can't buy into the idea that only the designated "police" can provide guidance on positive changes.

 

Not me man. I ain't buying it.

 

This theory works great off line and out in the World. But, online? NO way. Tony has suspended and banned people, yet they still come back and post snarky and bitchy comments. Why? Because they have no desire to change, to be the first one to suck it up and shut up, let things go, make amends, choose to ignore. Some LIKE to stir it up and see reactions. Is it wrong? Of course! But, it doesn't stop people from saying whatever they feel like saying.

[SoMovinOn]

This theory works great off line and out in the World. But, online? NO way. Tony has suspended and banned people, yet they still come back and post snarky and bitchy comments. Why? Because they have no desire to change, to be the first one to suck it up and shut up, let things go, make amends, choose to ignore. Some LIKE to stir it up and see reactions. Is it wrong? Of course! But, it doesn't stop people from saying whatever they feel like saying.

 

That some people choose to remain the same doesn't mean everyone does. I have seen a positive impact since I started this thread.

[Mme. Chaucer]

That is never an approach I would take anywhere in life. We all *can* change things. We can influence people and events. We can point out the negative and ask for something better. We can't *make* anyone do anything, but we can certainly point them in a positive direction and hope they take it, knowing most won't.

 

Hey! That's just EXACTLY what some of the people who come to THIS forum and make posts AGAINST participating in affairs feel! Some of us see extramarital affairs as inherently negative, and ask for something better! We can't *make* anyone do anything, but we can certainly point you in a positive direction and hope that you take it, knowing that most won't.

 

So, you have explained exactly why some people come right here to this forum, even though it's "for" those in affairs, who don't support affairs and who want to try to influence people who are in them.

[NoIDidn't]

That some people choose to remain the same doesn't mean everyone does. I have seen a positive impact since I started this thread.

 

Positive impact on whom? The entire board or a few posters?

 

I think you are seeing the impact of a couple of people put on time out.

 

[NoIDidn't]

Let's not forget that the OP himself called posters here rabid wolves, those that don't ascribe to his way of thinking I assume is what he meant by it.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I read the exchange between a former, but pro-A, OW poster, the OP and Mme. And it was telling.

 

I fail to see any positive impact. I see the same old swiping, but some is apparently approved, and even considered "deserved", by the OP.

 

Some just want those that disagree with what they post and have the temerity to post it to leave this forum, when they themselves are also quite free to take their own advice.

 

It does seem, though, that quite a few posters are on a break of sorts.

[pureinheart]

Are you the new moderator? BTW there are also forums that do nothing but support cheating and cheaters. One wishing to discuss their marital affairs can also visit those forums and get all the sympathy and support they wish with other cheaters as well.

 

SMO should be:D:D:D

[betterdeal]

http://xkcd.com/386/

[whichwayisup]

That some people choose to remain the same doesn't mean everyone does. I have seen a positive impact since I started this thread.

 

Very true..Some will change, and some won't. Not sure if I've seen positive impact, but i guess time will tell..in other threads if people make an effort to stop and think first before hitting that reply button.

 

SMO should be:D:D:D

 

Nah, a Mod has to be someone completely detached and not friends with anybody on this site. (no offense to SMO)

 

http://xkcd.com/386/

 

?? Too scared to click on that link incase it's spam.. (what is it though?)

[SoMovinOn]

Let's not forget that the OP himself called posters here rabid wolves, those that don't ascribe to his way of thinking I assume is what he meant by it.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Just saying that assuming is bad? I never responded to the question of my "rabid wolves" comment to clarify it any further. I certainly did not say they were merely people whom don't ascribe to my way of thinking. As has been one of the points of this discussion recently, people who don't want to change, won't. I have clarified my lack of opposition to those who think differently than I do more than once in this thread. People who don't want to accept that, won't.

[SoMovinOn]

Nah, a Mod has to be someone completely detached and not friends with anybody on this site. (no offense to SMO)

 

None taken. Not a job I'd care to have.

 

 

 

?? Too scared to click on that link incase it's spam.. (what is it though?)

 

It's safe. A one panel comic about a guy who won't go to bed because he has to stay online because someone is wrong.

[SoMovinOn]

It's obvious you have a lowly opinion of some posters here as calling people rabid wolves is quite inflammatory. Which is an example of the kind of remarks that you are trying to discourage others from. So, I don't get your point when you are doing the very thing that you are complaining about.

 

As many others have pointed out, sometimes the truth is not so pretty. There were a few posters here who seemed to have a standard response, no matter what the topic of the thread. It was those few posters to whom I was referring. As I mentioned, it only takes one to destroy a board.