6 years and now it's through...still stuck in the house!

[AllwaysBeDad]

My wife and I have been married for 6 years, we have 2 amazing children, oldest is 4. It's been a long time coming, and has happened many times before, but never before have I felt this strongly about the positives of not having a manipulative, malicious wife bearing down on my entire existence.

The issue I'm struggling with is my kids obviously, there's a strong possibility she will take them to the other end of the Country, away from my developing career, and our relatively healthy city life.

 

We are trying to remain amicable, but there is still a very strong connection between us, anger is at breaking point with every passing comment. It all came to blows yesterday with an argument, that developed into a lot of reality being spoken with regards to the misery we are both suffering. She assures me she will stay in the same city, but as a manic depressive who's not on medication, her mood changes..a lot. I've started to come to terms with how much I can afford, meaning a flatting life, something I detest, but it's better than slowly dying over a number of years in this relationship right!

It's going to take time to find a place, I have NO friends, she put an end to any developing friendship by accusing me of not balancing work and the children. True I guess, I don't really know, my thoughts haven't really mattered before.

 

I can't stand to even look at my children, the guilt and pain is too much to cope with, atop of everything that was going on prior to the end of my marriage. I'm neglecting them emotionally as I feel I have no capacity to engage on any level, I've never felt so drained. I want to be alone, noone near me, some time to think, grieve even. I know this will all come once I move out, but it's all so fresh and very hard to cope with.

Any suggestions, would be much appreciated. I'm sorry for turning here, and not to a good a friend, but now I have no-one.

I'm a good person, why is this happening?!

Edited September 25, 2011 by AllwaysBeDad
iPhone and it's silly word predictor!!

[Steen719]

Always...some questions for you...

 

• Have you tried counseling for the two of you and a Psychiatrist for her?
  
• Are you sure she can just up and take your kids across the country?
  
• Is she working?
  
• If she is truly bi-polar, can you feel safe leaving your children with her?
  
• Is there any family or old friend who could possibly help with your need to talk to someone?
  
• Have you tried Individual counseling to help YOU?
  
• Is there anything that could possibly happen that would make you want to stay in the marriage or do you feel just through?
  

[AllwaysBeDad]

Always...some questions for you...

 

• Have you tried counseling for the two of you and a Psychiatrist for her?
  
• Are you sure she can just up and take your kids across the country?
  
• Is she working?
  
• If she is truly bi-polar, can you feel safe leaving your children with her?
  
• Is there any family or old friend who could possibly help with your need to talk to someone?
  
• Have you tried Individual counseling to help YOU?
  
• Is there anything that could possibly happen that would make you want to stay in the marriage or do you feel just through?
  

 

Hey

Counseling? No, we have the ability to receive free sessions through my employer, the truth is, this is only considered during a reconciliation. As soon as we start over, we don't consider the the problems, they get brushed under the carpet.

 

Yes legally and vindictively she has the ability to move across Country, unfortunately it's to a terrible place, around terrible no hopers, not the life I want for my children, who are showing all the signs, of being nothing like their pathetic parents, at present at least.

 

She's not working, she used to do the odd couple of hours in the evening doing market research, but that ended when her relationship with management turning sour. Other than that, she hasn't worked since she was 6 months pregnant with our eldest. I've made many attempts to offer support, be it working or full time Mum. She showed an interest in working, so we gathered info on private kindergartens, or day care. That all fizzled away.

 

I don't think she is truly bipolar, a depression of sorts most definitely, but not the label as such. She has been on and off meds since she was young, and there was an incident merely months ago, when she made a feeble attempt at suicide. Considerably less than would be able to kill her, but plenty enough for the attention. I had to go to work, all that week and come home to feed the children, as she was passed out. I was an unsupportive jerk however, shes not all to blame of course.

Do I feel safe leaving my children with her? It makes my hairs stand up thinking about it. She's not mothering, nuturing, supportive, or in any way what a child needs from a mum. Lunch is often thrown on the table accompanied with a swear word of somekind. She has good moments of course, great moments in fact but they are very heavily weighted in the not so good.

 

Family, or a close friend, alas I have noone at all in this Country, and her only friend, is married to the lowlives I mentioned previously. I literally am completely alone very much a recurrent feeling throughout our marriage.

 

I've been through a lot of counselors in my time, beginning with the death of my Father at 18, I've never responded to them well, and being told, they can't do anything to help me, after a few sessions doesn't help the old self esteem much!

 

The only way I see this marriage possibly working is if she responds to me without thinking I'm attacking her, wakes up or grows up and realizes the responsibility of being a full time mum. And for once offer me something in the way of support. She needs to respect me, as a human being, and reciprocate my love. This is to her nothing but an "old record" I love her more than anything, and just wish she could find some-kind of low level happiness, to work towards a future together, where I'm certain we can be happy together. Perhaps I need to be out the way for that to happen, and ok it's heart breaking but if it's what she needs. But not at the cost of my precious children! I'm looking at flats, and Im the one leaving, not because I want to, but because I feel I have no choice, I will not slowly kill myself by suffering, I deserve more, don't I? What kind of example am I setting my ever emulating children, by staying in a relationship that she seems to have no interest in being a part of. But the cost to their lives is too much!!

 

[Downtown]

Dad, welcome to the the LoveShack forum. I'm so sorry you are in such pain. Would you please tell us more about why your W is "manipulative and malicious." Specifically, did you find that your W's anger is easily triggered, in ten seconds, by a minor event like some idle comment or minor infraction? Did you find that she is extremely controling, trying to isolate you away from friends and family members who would support you? Did you find that she frequently does black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as as "all good" or "all bad" -- and frequently uses terms like "always" and "never"? Did she often punish you by acting out with abusive language -- or by "acting in" by punishing you with icy withdrawal and passive-aggressive remarks?

 

I ask these questions because there is a good chance that your W's mood changes are due to BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), not bipolar. Indeed, BPD is about 4 times more prevalent than the bipolar disorder you mention. Moreover, BPD is strongly associated with the childhood abuse you mention. Bipolar is not. Significantly, most abused children grow up without either of those disorders but childhood abuse GREATLY raises the risk of developing BPD (and apparently has no effect on bipolar).

 

I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

 

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours).

 

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

 

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

 

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will. Yet, despite these six clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. The primary source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a significant portion of BPD sufferers (perhaps about 15%) also have the bipolar disorder.

 

If this discussion rings a bell, Dad, I suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- for at least a visit or two on your own -- to get a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with in your W. I also suggest that, while you are waiting for the appointment, you read a little about the nine BPD traits to see if they sound familiar. An easy place to start, here on LoveShack, are my four posts in GreenEyedRebel's thread about his W who exhibits strong BPD traits. My posts there begin at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3398735#post3398735. Take care, Dad.

[AllwaysBeDad]

Very useful information, I have tried to support her through many different phases in her life, I don't believe it is either of the 2 disorders, it's more of hatred for herself, she cannot let go of her past, and the wrongs she feels she must right. Either way, without sounding like a complete ass, I don't know what else to do for her.

I've tried for years, since we first met, to be her rock. And I was, but she's a tidal wave of projected hate, and I've been eroded to a measly pebble. I used to be overconfident, life of the party, cocksure in everything. These days I feel uncomfortable just sitting on the bus.

I've given my all, and she treated me like a child.

There's been a ridiculous amount if coincidences throughout our lives, although I've not by any stretch of the imagination reached a level of happiness, I can't help but feel like Ive outgrown her.

That sounds terrible, but no point beating about the bush right? I've known no life other than the one with my wife and kids, what I can't work out is...

Do I want her back, and to keep persevering, waiting for the next time in a month or so, while trying to keep helping?

Or am I clinging on to something that simply will never happen.

 

The only part of an answer to that question is that I have nothing left to offer, I'm completely void of any emotion, for anyone nowadays, especially the woman who treats me so badly!

 

[Downtown]

I don't believe it is either of the 2 disorders, it's more of hatred for herself.

Dad, I am not convinced your W has strong BPD traits. You have not provided enough detail to indicate that she does. On the other hand, nothing in your latest post indicates otherwise. Having a self hatred, for example, is one of the hallmarks of BPDers. They carry enormous anger and self-loathing inside from early childhood. The self hatred largely arises from their inability to know who they really are because they have such a fragile and weak self image.

She cannot let go of her past, and the wrongs she feels she must right.

Another hallmark of BPDers is their conviction that they are eternal victims -- always "the victim," which means they are always right and you are always the cause of whatever misfortune befalls them. Because their self image is fragile and unstable, this false notion of being "the victim" is the closest thing to a self image a BPDer usually has. She therefore will desperately seek to validate that false self image. During the honeymoon, she does it by perceiving her partner to be her savior on a white horse. By being the savior, he validates that she "needs saving" and thus must be a victim.

 

After the infatuation period fades away, she will start perceiving her partner as the "perpetrator," the cause of all her problems. That role, too, will validate her self image of being the victim. I learned the hard way that it is impossible to make an unhappy woman happy. She has to do that for herself. If she were capable of doing it, she likely would have done it before you married her. This is why I advise my younger family members to marry happy people.

Either way, without sounding like a complete ass, I don't know what else to do for her.

If she is a BPDer, there is nothing you can do to help her. The only way you could remain married to a BPDer is to always be walking on eggshells, allowing her to continue behaving like a child and getting away with it. Doing that, however, actually harms her by destroying her opportunity of having to confront her issues and learning how to manage them.

I've tried for years, since we first met, to be her rock.

BPDers need such a rock. Specifically, they hate to live alone because they need a man with a strong stable personality that will serve as their emotional anchor. If your W actually is a BPDer, her need for an emotional anchor would have been first apparent during the courtship period. Lacking a strong sense of who she is, she would have emulated all the best aspects of your personality -- to the point of enjoying nearly all your hobbies and friends. This process, called "mirroring," is so perfect that, for 3 to 6 months, both of you were convinced you had met your "soul mate." This need for an anchor also would be apparent in the way a BPDer tends to behave very differently around different sets of friends, taking clues from those people on how she should be acting. A BPDer does not do this to be manipulative. Rather, she has been doing it since early childhood as a way of being accepted and loved. It is necessary because she has no stable sense of who she is and what she wants to do in life.

she's a tidal wave of projected hate

BPDers rely heavily on projection to defend their weak egos from having to face too much of the truth. Because their emotional development stopped at about age four, they are stuck with the primitive emotional defenses available to young children. These include projection, denial, magical thinking, black-white thinking, and temper tantrums.

I've been eroded to a measly pebble. I used to be overconfident, life of the party, cocksure in everything. These days I feel uncomfortable just sitting on the bus.

It is common for the spouses of BPDers to spend so much time walking on eggshells (to avoid triggering a rage) that they start to forget who they really are. That is, they can barely remember their "old selves." Living with a BPDer is very disorienting because the BPDer has a thought disorder that causes her to believe most of the outrageous claims (projections, actually) coming out of her mouth. This is why many of the BPD websites targeted to spouses are called things like "Out of the Fog" and "Welcome to Oz." Indeed, of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making a substantial share of the (nonBPD) partners and spouses feel like they may be going crazy.

She treated me like a child.

If she has strong BPD traits, that is not unexpected because she would have the emotional development of a four year old.

Am I clinging on to something that simply will never happen?

If your W has strong BPD traits, it is highly unlikely she will seek professional help and stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. There are excellent treatment programs available. I would be surprised, however, if 1 in 100 high functioning BPDers have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to actually take advantage of those programs.

I don't think she is truly bipolar, a depression of sorts most definitely.

Depression can be caused by any of several mental disorders, with BPD being one of them. Because BPDers suffer from self loathing, all of them have to deal with depression.

She has been on and off meds since she was young.

If she has strong BPD traits, the damage to her emotional core likely occurred before she was five. Although BPD itself cannot be treated with medication, it does cause side effects (e.g., anxiety and depression) that are often treated with meds.

she made a feeble attempt at suicide.

The suicide rate for low functioning BPDers is far above that of the normal population. For high functioning BPDers, threats of suicide are very common but usually are done only to seek attention and validate their mistaken notion that they are victims. My exW, for example, would get terribly depressed and then walk to a high bridge, knowing that I was following her a hundred feet behind. When I stopped following one day, she stopped going to the bridge. Instead, she started calling me from a phone on the platform of the subway. She said she was going to jump in front of the next train and then hung up. She did that on two occasions.

I have nothing left to offer, I'm completely void of any emotion, for anyone nowadays, especially the woman who treats me so badly!

As I said, I am not convinced that your W has a strong pattern of BPD traits. I still believe it will be worth your time, however, to follow the link I provided above to see if most of the nine BPD traits sound familiar. Indeed, given that your abusive W is raising your two precious children, BPD is the very first thing you should be considering. If most of the traits sound familiar, I would encourage you to see a clinical psychologist -- for at least a session or two -- to obtain a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.

 

If you do, please go by yourself because psychologists and therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer that she has that disorder. One reason is that she almost certainly will immediately quit therapy. Another is that insurance rarely covers much, if any, costs of BPD treatments because the carriers (mistakenly) claim it is untreatable.

 

If you like, Dad, I can point you to other excellent sources of online information. Moreover, I know of an excellent online forum where you can discuss these issues with dozens of spouses and ex-spouses who are raising children with a partner who has BPD.

[AllwaysBeDad]

You made a lot of points that suggest she is BPD but I don't think counsellors can help, it goes beyond what another human being could learn. A struggle to realize who she is, where she belongs. Our marriage needs to not be in the forefront of her mind to achieve that.

Our time together is a part of her life, and I must accept that she was just a part of mine also.

I've realized this for sometime, but I lived in hope, hope that one day it'll be over and we can be happy again

Everytime she told me she loved me, I'd said it first. It's been years since she was all snuggly and upbeat. I've created everything we've done, I feel like a puppet master, just for trying to do things. She'd tell me that I don't love her enough, well it's true in a way, but true love can't be all one way.

 

A week or so ago, we had a fight, however afterwards she actually suggested a babysitter and to go out. Being that it was only maybe the 4th time where I havent been the one to draw the reconciliation after a fight of various proportions, be it my fault or not, You'd think I would be pretty happy about it, my response was that I didn't feel like going to a bar (hard day at work, and er.. technically a recovering alcoholic..) she immediately turned again and decided it was all pointless, cue hang up and a barrage of horrible text messages about how I don't care about her.

She believes I go to work and sit in exuberant chairs made of wondrous fabrics, jam with Kieth Richards while being pleasured by numerous virgins.

I've spent a lot of time at home, I understand just how difficult being a sterotypical housewife is, but what I do isn't exactly a breeze either. Ever since my first nine to fivey job, I fall victim to sms abuse, to the point where when her name appears on my iPhone, I actually shudder as I drag me finger access the screen.

I have to smile at people, and pretend I'm fine continuously throughout my day. I want to enjoy coming home, spending quality time with her, I miss her, we where best friends once, what happened?!

 

[LifesontheUp]

You'd think I would be pretty happy about it, my response was that I didn't feel like going to a bar (hard day at work, and er.. technically a recovering alcoholic..) she immediately turned again and decided it was all pointless, cue hang up and a barrage of horrible text messages about how I don't care about her.

 

This stood out for me. All your posts are about your wife and how she is. Yet have you any idea what it is like to live with an alcoholic?

 

So what is YOUR contribution to the state of your marriage?

 

I want to enjoy coming home, spending quality time with her, I miss her, we where best friends once, what happened?!

 

Don't you see you are perpetuating this. She was putting out an olive branch to you, to go out and spend time together to try and connect. Yet you threw it back in her face? No wonder she was upset. Sounds like she is very frustrated about it all too.

[AllwaysBeDad]

This stood out for me. All your posts are about your wife and how she is. Yet have you any idea what it is like to live with an alcoholic?

 

I think being one, would give me a bit of an idea, the reason why I said technically, is because I can't actually be, there's no support for me to be, it's one of those things that I deal with. When I gave up, my focus was on rebuilding our marriage, not on the drink, I had a sort of awakening, and realized I need to be sober to do it right, so I was...At all times fully aware of not daring to let out any of the side effects, it's easy to do something with a gun pointed to your head because your whole existence depends on it, this was no different.

 

With regards to the olive branch, yes it was, I almost needed to pinch myself. One week before, we where out at a casino, having a great time, if it's an olive branch to attempt to smooth things over then I'm making a lot of cooking oil.

 

If you think I believe this is all her fault, you have severly misjudged me, although I can see why from my previous posts. I'm not here to tell tales, I'm not here to defend myself, for the first time in my life, I feel as though I have a voice. It may seem as though I'm using that to avoid my own responsibility in the unravelling of our bond, but I assure you I am more aware than I've ever been, of where I went wrong. After the last time she disappeared, I've made every effort possible, fully aware of the importance (..my children's future) to change my bad ways, I'm doing pretty well and nothing has changed.

[Downtown]

You made a lot of points that suggest she is BPD but I don't think counselors can help, it goes beyond what another human being could learn.

Like you, I don't think counselors can help her if she has strong BPD traits. Although excellent treatment programs are available, they are worthless if the individual is too afraid to confront her illness and learn to control it. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a high functioning BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Moreover, even when they do stay at their spouse's insistence, they often refuse to do the necessary work and, instead, will just play mind games. I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and two MCs. She did that in weekly visits for 15 years -- all to no avail.

 

Hence, I was not bringing BPD traits to your attention because I thought you could change HER. Rather, I was trying to help you understand that, if you continue walking on eggshells to remain married to a BPDer, you are not helping her. Rather, you would be harming her by allowing her to continue behaving like a spoiled child and get away with it. That destroys any chance she has of having to confront her illness and learn how to manage it.

 

Significantly, if your W is a BPDer, knowing this information will help you by freeing you from the guilt and overpowering sense of obligation that keeps spouses stuck in toxic relationships with BPDers. Hence, I am trying to help you leave her, if you decide that is in the best interests of your children.

A struggle to realize who she is, where she belongs. Our marriage needs to not be in the forefront of her mind to achieve that.

I agree. As I just said, if she is a BPDer, her only chance of having to confront her illness and do something about it will occur when you have stopped protecting her from the logical consequences of her own harmful and selfish behavior. That means you have to stop walking on eggshells.

 

Although a divorce may be best for the both of you, it certainly won't end your problems if she is a BPDer -- because she will have at least partial custody of your children. I therefore urge you, again, to seek professional advice so you know what it is you are dealing with, i.e., so you know what sort of woman is "caring" for your children when they are not with you. If she is a BPDer, there is a world of information available from therapists and online to help you deal with all the nasty, vindictive issues that will arise.

 

At BPDfamily.com, for example, there are 8 message boards targeted solely to spouses and ex-spouses of BPDers. One of those boards is "Leaving a BPDer" and another is "Raising Children with a Parent Having BPD." There, you could benefit from the shared experiences of hundreds of folks going through the very same painful experiences you have now. There also are excellent books available. The best selling BPD book targeted to spouses is Stop Walking on Eggshells. And, just three months ago, the author of that book released another called "Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist."

 

But first things first. The first thing to do is to figure out whether she likely has strong BPD traits. If not, find out whether she is a narcissist or has some other disorder. There is a reason for her dysfunctional behavior. That is why I am suggesting you read about BPD and consult with a psychologist. There is simply too much at stake -- even after you divorce -- for you to be dealing with her in blindness. By understanding her motivations, you will be better positioned to protect yourself and your children.

[AllwaysBeDad]

Downtown

 

Whoever you are in real life, You seem to know my life so well, and it's the first time where I've felt like I haven't been alone in this, I always thought I was just an arsehole. So thankyou, there will always be someone who has never met you but will remember this moment always!

 

Without picking on the negatives, I'm afraid to call it that, BPD it's like putting a label on her, she's a lovely, caring, warm, and kind person, I just can't find her, or help her anymore. She's so close to finding the importance of finding herself it's agonizing to see.

 

I was trying to help you understand that, if you continue walking on eggshells to remain married to a BPDer, you are not helping her. Rather, you would be harming her by allowing her to continue I just said, if she is a BPDer, her only chance of having to confront her illness and do something about it will occur when you have stopped protecting her from the logical consequences of her own harmful and selfish behavior. That means you have to stop walking on eggshells.

.

 

That really resonates, It hurts that I can't protect her anymore, I sadly have little faith in her ever truly being just 'happy enough' I've wanted nothing less true un-nurtured happiness for her since the day we met. When she smiles, she lights up the room, it's like an oasis, a small trickle of energy, before it turns back to sand.

If I'm not there to protect her, I'm afraid she'll get hurt further....but she's hurting so much now, and I can't protect her.

Is there anyway that I can stop walking on eggshells and still be there for her?

 

[Downtown]

I always thought I was just an arsehole.

Dad, you may well be for all I know, LOL. You have said little about yourself. Yet, if your W is a BPDer as I suspect, you almost certainly are not. Arseholes typically don't date BPDers very long, much less marry them.

 

Indeed, even the good guys -- those with strong self esteem and personal boundaries -- won't date BPDers very long either. Typically, they enjoy the 3 to 6 months of adoration and passionate sex during the infatuation period and then are willing to spend up to 12 months trying to restore that wonderful "soul mate" they saw at the beginning. Then they bail.

 

The only guys hanging on for over six years like you -- or for 15 years like me -- are almost certainly "excessive caregivers" like us. (Therapists often call us "codependents," a term I don't like because it is so badly and inconsistently defined -- the result of its being excluded from the Diagnostic Manual.) Our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

The result is that we have difficulty feeling loved if the woman does not desperately need us. This is why, when we are looking for a mate, we walk right past all the stable, emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who, being convinced she is an eternal victim, projects gobs of vulnerability ("catnip" to us). I mention this because, if it accurately describes your nature, you are at risk of leaving your W only to run into the arms of another woman just like her. It therefore is important to be able to recognize the nine red flags, as well as getting a better understanding of what motivates you.

Without picking on the negatives, I'm afraid to call it that, BPD it's like putting a label on her, she's a lovely, caring, warm, and kind person.

The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning and most of the HF BPDers I've met are immediately very likeable individuals and above average in intelligence. Typically, they have a childlike warmth of expression. Due to their being extremely uncomfortable with mixed feelings, they tend to really like you or really dislike you, viewing you as "all good" or "all bad." This means that their faces have a purity of expression that otherwise is seen only in the faces of children who -- like BPDers -- are in touch with only one set of emotions at a time. This is why you do not see conflicted expressions, where the smile says "I love you" and the eyebrows and eyes say "I'm not so sure." Instead, you see very pure and wonderful expressions if the BPDer is splitting you white.

 

This is why going home to a BPDer W can be such a joy. It is the equivalent of a father going home to see, on opening the front door, his four year old daughter running toward him with her arms outstretched and a face full of unmitigated adoration. Yet, as time goes by, the BPDer will increasingly split you black instead of white. So going home eventually becomes a game of Russian roulette -- with the odds stacked heavily against you.

When she smiles, she lights up the room, it's like an oasis, a small trickle of energy, before it turns back to sand.

My BPDer exW is the same way. She has the ability to put complete strangers completely at ease in a few minutes and, within a half hour, make them feel like they've known her for months. It is not manipulation on her part but, rather, a genuine caring and interest in others. She is a beautiful woman who has the grace and charm that Princess Diana was renown for. In the book, Diana in Search of Herself, biographer Sally Smith claims that Diana suffered from BPD.

 

Whether or not that is true, it would not surprise me because HF BPDers can be extremely generous and caring to casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. Those people pose no threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy that would trigger the engulfment. Heaven help those folks, however, if they decide to draw closer and become a close friend. Then they will start triggering the two fears. This is why it is common for a BPDer to be generous and caring to strangers all day long and then go home to abuse the very people who love her. And this is why BPDers typically have no long term close friends (unless they live a long distance apart).

I just can't find her, or help her anymore.

If she is a BPDer, you never could help her. Instead, you were trying to do the impossible for six years, as I tried for 15.

She's so close to finding the importance of finding herself it's agonizing to see.

Yes, to me it's like standing on a boat dock and watching your loved one flailing about in the water just three feet away. Although you know how to pull her to safety and are pleading with her to grab your hand, she is unwilling to do so. It's not that she is blind and can't see your arm. It's not that she is deaf and can't hear your pleas. No, it's none of those things. Rather, it's that she is incapable of trusting anyone. She therefore refuses to believe you -- choosing instead to remain "the victim" for the rest of her life.

 

To caregivers like us, it is agonizing to watch a sick loved one slipping away like that. The reason that we stay so many years in the toxic relationship is that the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to us. Doing so goes against our family values, our religion, our sense of commitment -- indeed, against every fiber of our being.

If I'm not there to protect her, I'm afraid she'll get hurt further....but she's hurting so much now, and I can't protect her. Is there anyway that I can stop walking on eggshells and still be there for her?

If there is, I was unable to find it in 15 years. Throughout that period, I struggled to find the "Goldilocks position" that was far enough away to avoid triggering her engulfment fear -- yet close enough to avoid triggering her abandonment fear. It took me 15 years to realize that such a midway solution does not exist. The problem is that, because the twin fears are polar opposites on the same spectrum, the solution to avoiding one fear is the very thing that triggers the other.

 

If your W's BPD traits are only mild, however, you may find that you can reduce the triggering to an acceptable level. Yet, from what you've been saying, you already find her traits to be at an unacceptable level and she shows no interest in seeking therapy to learn how to manage them.

 

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are healthy. Splitting, for example, is something that you do many times a day -- every time you daydream or get startled. These BPD traits become a problem only when they are strong enough to undermine the person's ability to sustain close friendships and a marriage -- as you are describing here.

 

Significantly, you are capable of recognizing strong BPD traits in a woman you've been living with for at least six years. Indeed, before you left high school, you already could spot girls who were too selfish and grandiose to be good marriage candidates -- and you did so without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You already could spot girls who were too shy for you to date -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. And you already could spot the class drama queens -- without having a clue about diagnosing Histrionic PD.

 

Similarly, it will be easy for you to spot a strong occurrence of BPD traits because you know what they feel and look like. You exhibited such traits 24/7 when you were a child and still do so occasionally as an adult. What you cannot do is determine whether those traits are so severe and persistent that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can do that. Yet, for the purposes of deciding whether to remain in a marriage, such a diagnosis does not establish a useful threshold test because, even when the traits fall well short of that diagnostic threshold, they can render your marriage toxic and miserable.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Downtown

[Tayla]

Diagnosis class 101 is cancelled! See the secretary for a refund

 

OP, May I inquire if you have sought proper judicial advisal in the country you reside? Secondly I stand agasp that a Gent of your nature remains in that environment. Take your children and move on with life. Single Dads are just as competant to raise children. You are an adult with all the resources available , you just need the support to take that first step. You are in a fog to make a fair accessment of your marriage, its hard to see the forest thru the trees. You need to stabilize your life and that of your children. This cannot be healthy for them....

[trippi1432]

Diagnosis class 101 is cancelled! See the secretary for a refund

 

OP, May I inquire if you have sought proper judicial advisal in the country you reside? Secondly I stand agasp that a Gent of your nature remains in that environment. Take your children and move on with life. Single Dads are just as competant to raise children. You are an adult with all the resources available , you just need the support to take that first step. You are in a fog to make a fair accessment of your marriage, its hard to see the forest thru the trees. You need to stabilize your life and that of your children. This cannot be healthy for them....

 

Amen..but that is NOT a 10 character response...so Amen again.

[Downtown]

Diagnosis class 101 is cancelled!

Nobody has claimed to be capable of making a diagnosis. On the contrary, I said several times that only a professional can do that. Recognizing a strong pattern of BPD traits, however, is easy when you are living with someone. Dad would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not to see -- for six years -- behavioral traits like verbal abuse, fragile sense of self, controlling behavior, constant blaming, and black-white thinking. Indeed, that behavior is exactly what he is here complaining about.

 

If such strong traits are present, it is important to identify them for the reasons I've given. Further, even if his W has full-blown BPD at the diagnostic level, it would be near impossible to get a psychologist to testify to that in court. Absent such evidence -- or even with it -- getting sole custody of the children would be very difficult. Moreover, because such traits are believed to be largely hereditary, Dad would want to know which traits to look for so he can monitor the health of his children.

[AllwaysBeDad]

Downtown,

Do you really exist? Are you a real person, it's like you're a version of me, it's hard to write down, I don't know how to deal with this mate.

I don't know what I want, It's like I'm BPD too, we've been so destructive to each other, but undeniably connected. I don't like the word soul, it carries baggage! but we are like 'soul'mates, there's a reason we met. What do I do next.. I'm not this perfect gent lol, I'm mental too! We help each other, I didn't use the past tense there because even through the all this, we compliment each others craziness. Tornado and volcano, we are!

Im afraid of slipping back, we're already starting to fall back into it, it's just a matter of time before we start the whole circle again.

I don't want to move out, she doesn't want me to move out, so why must I? 15 years? What was it that made enough really be enough? I've felt that way before, I feel that way now, This must be the last time. Already this time doesn't feel like the last time. I dont want to feel this way in another 9 years..

[Downtown]

I don't know what I want, It's like I'm BPD too.

Whoa! Not so fast. As I cautioned, we all occasionally exhibit the nine BPD traits all through adulthood. They become a problem only when they are so strong as to undermine your LTRs with loved ones.

 

A second caution is that, if you really suffer from BPD, it is very unlikely you would aware of such traits. They are ego-syntonic, i.e., invisible usually to the person suffering from BPD traits. Granted, there are a few BPDers who are self aware and have sufficiently strong egos to seek treatment. Online, I have communicated with nearly a hundred self aware BPDers. In my private life, however, I've never knowingly met one. It is very uncommon. So it is unlikely that, if you really have strong BPD traits, you would be willing to talk to me about it.

 

A third caution is that it is common for the nonBPD spouses to become so disoriented by the BPDer's gaslighting that they start feeling like they may be going crazy -- and many start reacting to the BPDer's verbal abuse by become very abusive themselves.

 

A fourth caution is that, so far, you have not described your own behavior as exhibiting strong BPD traits. Indeed, the only indication you've given us of your having mental problems is your statement:

"I've been through a lot of counselors in my time, beginning with the death of my Father at 18, I've never responded to them well, and being told, they can't do anything to help me."

Significantly, strong BPD traits do not arise from abandonment at age 18 by a dying father. Rather, they are believed to arise from damage to the emotional core in early childhood, at the time a person is trying to form an integrated sense of who he is. Granted, the BPD traits themselves usually do not surface strongly until the mid-teens -- when the person is trying to form LTRs outside the family. But the damage is caused much earlier, in early childhood.

we've been so destructive to each other, but undeniably connected.

I agree that the toxicity in your marriage is not something your W is doing to you. Rather, it is harm that you both are doing to each other. As the stable one in the relationship, you are the glue holding it together. Not knowing anything about your past emotional problems, my guess (expressed above) was that you are an excessive caregiver ("codependent") like me -- because those are the type of people who usually will stay in a LTR with a BPDer exceeding 18 months. (Narcissists also will sometimes remain for years but they are far less common than the caregivers.) If you agree that you are an excessive caregiver like me, your contribution to the toxicity is your walking on eggshells, enabling your W to avoid suffering the logical consequences of her own bad behavior -- thereby blocking her path to recovery (in the unlikely event she would go down that path) .

 

If that is not true, however, please tell me more about your emotional problems that were so strong as to send you to several therapists starting at age 18. I would be glad to discuss it with you. What are your symptoms? Did you get an actual diagnosis by a clinical psychologist? Why did the therapists say they cannot help you? If you are reluctant to discuss your issues here on the open forum, feel free to PM me, Dad.

We compliment each others craziness.

Yes, absolutely. It takes two willing people to create a toxic marriage lasting six years. Technically, however, it is highly unlikely that either of you is "crazy," which denotes a loss of touch with the physical world (e.g., thinking the newscaster on TV is addressing you personally). The most likely explanation, if your W has strong BPD traits, is that your codependency compliments those traits.

15 years? What was it that made enough really be enough?

Caregivers like me are loath to walk away from a sick loved one. So it is rare for a caregiver to ever willingly leave. Certainly, that was true for me. What typically happens is that, after 12-15 years, the BPDer will leave the caregiver. As each year goes by, the BPDer (always thinking she is a victim) grows increasingly resentful of the caregiver's failure to make her happy or fix her. That is, she increasingly blames him for all of her unhappiness, seeing him more and more as the "perpetrator." Of course, that is a far cry from the "savior" she thought she saw in the courtship period.

 

In my case, I had been taking my exW to therapists every week for 15 years, to no avail. However, I did keep building my personal boundaries higher and higher, to the point that I rarely walked on eggshells anymore. Nothing will end a relationship quicker with a BPDer than to stop being the doormat.

 

If you think your W really loves you for who you are -- rather than the attributes she projects onto you -- just start acting yourself all the time and see how long she stays with you. When I did it, my exW called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge so she could kick me out of my own home (by getting a restraining order, which courts hand out like candy when one partner has been arrested).

[AllwaysBeDad]

Was your wife ever aware of any of this? I read out one of your posts, shes really taken it on board, she said she's always been acutely aware, is there anything we can do? We could try counselling but what you've said before, that seems like a path that that won't lead anywhere.

I don't want to abandon her, I need her too, we are each others poison and antidote.

Why can't we find a way around it, maybe a holiday, complete lifestyle change, throw some more money at it? We will do what ever it takes!

[AllwaysBeDad]

The last time I acted like myself, I gained a sense of individuality, I was sick of being treated like a step, so I was myself, made a vast number of casual friendships, felt amazing... A week, maybe 2 into it, there was a suicide attempt, and the police where called. A week after that, the police where called again after I came home to find she'd packed everthing and was leaving for her only real longterm friend (on the other side of the Country)

She's left me for a women's refuge before, I can't actually count the number of times we've 'split' only to dramatically and poetically reconcile. It's happening again now! Although I'm trying very hard for everyone's sake to not fall back into the same routine, it's taking a lot of energy and strength that Ive only just acquired!

 

I think I definitely show some traits of narcissism, not dangerous levels, but I do like people to like me, and certainly made up a few things to accomplish that. I have an uncanny ability to adapt to people's personalities, I could have coffee with CEO's at lunch and smoke crack with gang bangers at dinner, all the time though fully aware of what I'm doing to 'fit in'

I was treated for bipolar, although I believe this to be off track somewhat, I discontinued treatment when I felt as though I could take the world on (over a year now), and I'm doing alright with that in most areas.

I'm by no means 'stable' more aware, and therefore able to understand the grey between the black and white, enabling a level of 'coping'

I used to be a significantly shallow person, I would treat women the worst, no deep connection was ever established previously, just an abundance of pointless sex, although as I child I dreamed of marriage.

I'm very prone to addictions, and self destructive, felt as though I deserved to be hurt more than I was, so made it happen.

Money was atop of my importance list, material objects, and too influenced by music..

There!

[Downtown]

The last time I acted like myself, I gained a sense of individuality, I was sick of being treated like a step, so I was myself, made a vast number of casual friendships, felt amazing... A week, maybe 2 into it, there was a suicide attempt, and the police where called.

Why are you convinced that your W loves the real you when she cannot stand being around the real you, who is no longer walking on eggshells to appease her?

I came home to find she'd packed everything and was leaving for her only real long term friend (on the other side of the Country).

Typically, a BPDer is unable to retain long term friends unless they live a long distance away.

She's left me for a women's refuge before,

Does she claim you abused her as an excuse for seeking "refuge"? Did you ever abuse her?

I can't actually count the number of times we've 'split' only to dramatically and poetically reconcile. It's happening again now!

This push-away and pull-back cycle is one hallmark of BPDer behavior. As I explained, it arises from the twin fear of abandonment and engulfment.

I think I definitely show some traits of narcissism, not dangerous levels, but I do like people to like me, and certainly made up a few things to accomplish that.

Wanting "people to like me" describes every person on the planet. As to your having fabricated a few accomplishments, that is a sign of low self esteem and insecurity. Narcissism goes way beyond that. Whereas a BPDer knows that the self image she shows to other people is not her true self, a narcissist is so completely out of touch with her true self that she believes the false self is true. If you suspect you have strong NPD traits, I encourage you to read more about it. So far, you are not describing such traits (although the using women only for meaningless sex, done years ago, is going down that path).

I have an uncanny ability to adapt to people's personalities, I could have coffee with CEO's at lunch and smoke crack with gang bangers at dinner, all the time though fully aware of what I'm doing to 'fit in'

Yes, that is one of the traits of BPDers. But one strong trait does not constitute a pattern of BPD, which requires at least five strong traits.

I was treated for bipolar, although I believe this to be off track somewhat, I discontinued treatment when I felt as though I could take the world on (over a year now), and I'm doing alright with that in most areas. I'm by no means 'stable' more aware,

Earlier above, I described five differences between BPD and bipolar behavior. Which was closest to your behavior? If you experience rages, for example, are they event-triggered or do they come in waves only several times a year? How often are your mood changes?

I used to be a significantly shallow person, I would treat women the worst, no deep connection was ever established previously, just an abundance of pointless sex,

This describes nearly every teenage boy. How old were you at the time?

too influenced by music..

What does that mean?

Was your wife ever aware of any of this?

No, she was never aware of having BPD. Yet, like most BPDers, she always had a deep awareness that something was wrong, that she didn't know who she really was, and that there was a terrible emptiness inside that could not be filled up. She felt somewhat "fake" because she knew the image she presented to others was false. She nonetheless did not know who her true self was. When I finally told her about BPD, and explained that she likely got it from years of sexual abuse by her dad when she was a child, she refused to believe it.

We could try counseling but what you've said before, that seems like a path that that won't lead anywhere.

On the contrary, there are excellent treatment programs available in many countries. The problem is not a lack of treatment but, rather, the unwillingness of BPDers to stop believing they are victims and instead start accepting responsibility for their own actions. Once that is achieved -- meaning that they have become self aware -- they are still not home free. I've met many who have achieved that on Internet forums and they still will not do the years of work necessary to learn how to manage and control their fears, how to trust, how to do self soothing, and how to intellectually challenge their intense feelings. Learning those things requires ego strength that few of them have.

 

Moreover, the BPDer has to go to someone trained in treating BPDers. Most psychologists don't specialize in it and therefore refer clients to a colleague who does. I doubt that many therapists having a masters degree are qualified to diagnose BPD, much less treat it. And marriage counselors, IME, are totally useless because -- until the underlying personality issues are under control -- learning better communication skills just makes the BPDer better at controlling her spouse.

Why can't we find a way around it, maybe a holiday, complete lifestyle change, throw some more money at it? We will do what ever it takes!

No, you are not doing what it takes. If either of you has strong BPD traits, what "it takes" is professional guidance for several years (at least) from a psychologist. Of course, by reading and working at it, a BPDer can make a little progress on her own. But she won't get very far because BPD creates thought distortions about other peoples' intentions. The BPDer therefore needs professional guidance to help her realize what is an accurate perception and what is a distorted perception. If you think you can accomplish that on your own, just consider the fact that when psychologists work on their own issues, they invariably go to another psychologist for guidance. It is impossible to step outside yourself to get an objective view of your own thinking process.

[Drewau2005]

Hi Downtown,

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this subject. I was just wondering how the BPD person gets over the 'voctim status'? When often it seems they are doing things rather than things being done to them. An example I know of is someone who claimed they had were kicked out of home and forced to live in a refuge when in reality Herculean efforts were tried to encourage this person to come home and no one wanted them to leave in the first place. It went, oh someone is disagreeing with me, I take that as a threat, I have to go and live in a refuge.

Interested in your thoughts.

Many thanks

Drew

[Downtown]

I was just wondering how the BPD person gets over the 'victim status'?

If the person has strong BPD traits, it is very unlikely she will let go of her false self image of being the "perpetual victim." A BPDer maintains a death grip on that false image for many reasons, one of which is the terrible sense of shame suffered when acknowledging mistakes and taking responsibility for her own actions.

 

Although there are excellent treatment programs available, few BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength to seek therapy and stay in it long enough to make a difference. Are you thinking of this victim mentality in the context of your second wife? I ask because, after reading about your first W in your 2006 thread and your second W in your 2009 thread, I started finding you to be a very interesting man.

 

Well, I should say "potentially interesting" because you reveal so little about yourself and, except for the last thread, generally reveal little emotion at a time when your personal life was in utter turmoil. What fascinates me is your intellectualizing, combined with an optimistic, confident attitude that you can figure out what is wrong with your marriage and try to fix it. Have you read anything about Avoidant PD?

 

If you would like to discuss any issues with me further, feel free to PM me. Alternatively, you could start a new thread (or revisit your 2009 thread) to discuss it there. I don't want to hijack this one which Dad started. Keep in mind, however, that moving to another thread will prove unproductive unless you are comfortable revealing a lot more information than you have been willing to share so far. Take care, Drew.