Your view on male virginity vs male use of prostitution

[Sanman]

Apparently no one has any interest or thoughts on this but us Oldguy. Funny how when the craziness abounds you get hundreds of posts, but when you try and make a rational argument you get crickets.

[AHardDaysNight]

Sure, but sexual slavery (which does exist) does not count as adults having sex because one is being coerced. It would properly be defined as rape and theft/slavery all of which are illegal as it is (with or without laws against prostitution). What I was trying to explain is that blaming prostitution as a whole for the existence of sexual slavery would be like blaming the cultivation of cotton and indigo as a whole for the existence of African slaves in the American South. Never mind the fact that in other parts of the world cotton and indigo were farmed without the use of slaves.

 

How do you assume that all prostitutes are forced into it?

[Queen Zenobia]

How do you assume that all prostitutes are forced into it?

 

I don't. Re-read my post. There are prostitutes forced into the business, however forcing someone into sex against their will is already a crime (rape) as are human trafficking and other such offenses. There are prostitutes who choose to rent out their bodies for sexual services. They should be free to do so if they want.

[AHardDaysNight]

I don't. Re-read my post. There are prostitutes forced into the business, however forcing someone into sex against their will is already a crime (rape) as are human trafficking and other such offenses. There are prostitutes who choose to rent out their bodies for sexual services. They should be free to do so if they want.

 

If it isn't a crime for them to rent out their bodies, then why should it be a crime for men to pay them for services?

 

This is where the law is fail. It protects women that sell sex because it's easy, but if men (who don't have it easy in getting it) take advantage of it, then suddenly it's illegal!

[somedude81]

If it isn't a crime for them to rent out their bodies, then why should it be a crime for men to pay them for services?

Neither should be crimes.

 

Prostitution should be decriminalized, taxed and regulated.

[Queen Zenobia]

If it isn't a crime for them to rent out their bodies, then why should it be a crime for men to pay them for services?

 

This is where the law is fail. It protects women that sell sex because it's easy, but if men (who don't have it easy in getting it) take advantage of it, then suddenly it's illegal!

 

Beats me. I can only make guesses as to why that is. One thing's for sure though, I'm definitely not an advocate of arresting men for having sex with prostitutes. The government screws up enough things already, I don't need them to try to be the moral police.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Truthfully spoken. Now give me around, say, 8 hours, for that's how long It'll take me to read all of the threads from guys who can't get laid because they try to have ''it'' emotionally, before trying to bed the woman. Be kind to me. Allow me some 10 hours more, for a good margin of movement. I still have to read all of the threads from women on dating, how to approach women, and how to befriend them.

 

And women don't understand why half of the men who struggle with women either turn completely to porn, and the other half transforms itself into puas and douchebags LOL!

 

Now it's my turn to speak truthly. I see a lot of emotional immaturity from a number of posts on this site. In the case we are talking about in regards of men struggling to relate to women, I see these men aren't really investing any time to get to know women instead of investing time in complaining about women and taking the advice they want instead of the advice that is best. Why do they do this, one might ask? Because they want to feed the conclusion they already made about women long before they came to this website. They don't want to admit that they could have made a mistake somewhere down the road. And they find like minded men that will only contribute in festering in the same attitude so that they can reinforce their already preconceived negative attitudes. Thus making women to blame, not them.

 

Just take your last paragraph. Which nicely highlights emotional immaturity. You've managed to turn it into women's fault. You're basic message being: Men are like this because of women. No. The men we speak of are like that because of the choices they made. Not becaue of anything women have done.

 

I have had some men not treat me so nicely. That doesn't mean that i get to act a certain way toward men and they say "this is why I am like that." That would be emotionally immature. So instead of looking within one self and not looking to women to validate a man's own worth, the men that don't get the answer they wrongly seek through women (the worth of their masculinity) become angry and bitter.

[somedude81]

In the case we are talking about in regards of men struggling to relate to women, I see these men aren't really investing any time to get to know women instead of investing time in complaining about women and taking the advice they want instead of the advice that is best.

And how exactly should a man invest time in getting to know women?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Read material other then Maxim and Playboy about women. Women are more likely to read material about how to better relate to men or themselves. (Self Help books). Men are less likely to engage in that kind of serious matarial and usually will spend more time looking at pictures of hot women .Which does nothing to help a man really understand a woman.

 

Engage with women for purely the joy of learing what women are about instead of it being about what you can get from a woman (I.E. Sex). Talk to other men about women in other terms then T&A. Talk to your mother's and sisters about women. Learn about women instead of just trying to figure out how to get what you want from women.

[AHardDaysNight]

I guess I am emotionally immature.

 

But the question is, what came first? The rejection or the insecurity?

 

The only difference between me, and someone who's a player, is A.) I refuse to give in to something fake, and pretend to be something I'm not, in order to impress and win over women, and B.) they ask out women, and I wait to be asked out.

 

I am not some ugly looking person. I've seen uglier people than me in relationships. I am an accomplished musician, I am writing two novels and a book of poems, I am a straight A student at college, I have a love of music, movies, books, and the arts, I am intelligent and creative.

 

In fact, listing all that, I am someone who's a pretty good catch. However, the players have an advantage, because, since they've done this before (and been successful), they know exactly what to say to women to get their panties wet.

 

I'd say that it's more experience, rather than what you bring to the table, that makes you attractive in the eyes of women. You can have everything working against you, but if you've had a girlfriend already, you're better off than the guy who has everything going for him except his dating life.

[ChessPieceFace]

Now it's my turn to speak truthly. I see a lot of emotional immaturity from a number of posts on this site. In the case we are talking about in regards of men struggling to relate to women, I see these men aren't really investing any time to get to know women instead of investing time in complaining about women and taking the advice they want instead of the advice that is best.

 

Doesn't take much time to type up a couple posts. I don't see how "investing that time in getting to know women" would have helped.

 

Also, what's to know? I've been around women my whole life and it never helped; in fact it did the opposite. Listening to most womens' advice on what men should do to get women is a huge mistake, because most women do not understand their own motivations. They will usually tell you to do a bunch of idealistic nonsense which reflects what they BELIEVE they want, not what actually attracts them. More to the point, they're telling you to do all the things their piggish boyfriends DON'T do, what they WISH their piggish boyfriends did, without realizing that the lack of doing said things is part of the reason they are with said pigs.

 

You want to know what women REALLY want? Ask them to describe their ex-boyfriends. Many of the qualities they describe (complain about) are what they go after. Piggish qualities they claim to hate.

 

They don't want to admit that they could have made a mistake somewhere down the road. And they find like minded men that will only contribute in festering in the same attitude so that they can reinforce their already preconceived negative attitudes. Thus making women to blame, not them.

 

Wrong again. Women are to blame; but that is to say, the human genome in relation to the pre-wiring of womens' brains to be attracted to pigs, is to blame. It's not like most women CONSCIOUSLY go out and date pigs. So in that sense, since it isn't a conscious choice, you can't blame the womens' conscious minds or believed intentions. Yet, it is their fault all the same. It is their fault insofar as they are unable or unwilling to rise above their own nature, unable or unwilling to take a rational look at their own actions and choices and psyche and set themselves on a better course.

 

There's plenty of worthwhile men out there. If a woman isn't hideously ugly (in that case you can blame mens' genome for wanting good looks) then in most cases she shouldn't have any problem finding a worthwhile man. It is her fault that she is unhappy, dating piggish men, and it is her fault that whatever worthwhile guy she should be dating is alone.

 

Several of my female facebook friends like to rant about men and say "all men are pigs" or that same thing in many different ways. They believe that, because it is only the pigs that they go after. (And also because they are misandrists. That means man-haters.)

 

You will undoubtedly try to equivocate or turn the argument around, and I'll tell you in advance that you're dead wrong. There is little or no equivalence here (the main valid one being mens' attraction to good looks, which I already mentioned.) How often do you know of guys turning down women, vs. women turning down men? That shows you who is in control of the choice, and that shows you where the blame squarely lies -- with womens' poor choices, with women being wired to be attracted to the worst qualities in a mate (in terms of modern/civilized society.)

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Being rejected sucks HardDayNight. And when you are younger, it's devastating because you take it as a response to who you are. You personlize it and internalize it. But being emotionally sound means not finding your worth through the often flinty approvel of others anyway. This means that when someone makes a bad comment about you, not letting it bother you. It also means that when someone gives you a compliment, it's nice but it also can't be the sum of your worth either. I've been rejected before, plenty! It use to devastate me when I was younger. But now? I'm way more comfortable with who I am. I even feel blessed to be who I am. And when I get rejected, I jsut take it as a sign that that guy wasn't for me after all and that his rejection of me means nothing more then that. It doesn't mean I wasn't smart enough or pretty enough or funny enough. Guys forget that women get rejected too. At least us regular girls.

 

 

The only difference between me, and someone who's a player, is A.) I refuse to give in to something fake, and pretend to be something I'm not, in order to impress and win over women, and B.) they ask out women, and I wait to be asked out.

 

Never pretend you are someone you aren't. But part of dating is winning over your potential partner and doing things for them that might impress them to show them you care.

 

I am not some ugly looking person. I've seen uglier people than me in relationships. I am an accomplished musician, I am writing two novels and a book of poems, I am a straight A student at college, I have a love of music, movies, books, and the arts, I am intelligent and creative.

 

It sounds like you have some wonderful qualities and interests.

 

In fact, listing all that, I am someone who's a pretty good catch. However, the players have an advantage, because, since they've done this before (and been successful), they know exactly what to say to women to get their panties wet.

 

This sentence alone tells me you know very little about women. It's still about "getting their panties wet" instead of seeing women as people with a unique set of needs, you've still turned it into how best to make women wet so you can best get in there. And I'm sorry but that has nothing to do with really getting to know women.

 

I'd say that it's more experience, rather than what you bring to the table, that makes you attractive in the eyes of women. You can have everything working against you, but if you've had a girlfriend already, you're better off than the guy who has everything going for him except his dating life.

 

Women want to know that a man knows how to relate to women. If a man is having trouble getting a girlfriend, he might be having a hard time relating to women. So he needs to invest some time in learning about women. This will give him confidence. And if he is confidence in the presence of a woman and knows how to treat her, it won't matter what his sexual status is.

[AHardDaysNight]

I know how to relate to women. I can make female friends easily. In fact, most of my friends are women.

 

That doesn't mean jack when it comes to getting a girlfriend, though, because whatever these guys (that are good with women) have, I don't.

[Queen Zenobia]

I guess I am emotionally immature.

 

But the question is, what came first? The rejection or the insecurity?

 

The only difference between me, and someone who's a player, is A.) I refuse to give in to something fake, and pretend to be something I'm not, in order to impress and win over women, and B.) they ask out women, and I wait to be asked out.

 

I'd say that it's more experience, rather than what you bring to the table, that makes you attractive in the eyes of women. You can have everything working against you, but if you've had a girlfriend already, you're better off than the guy who has everything going for him except his dating life.

 

Interesting points. I'd have to agree with you about the wide public perception about virginity and inexperience. There's a reason why the 40 Year Old Virgin starred a man and not a woman, and that's because the public feels better about laughing at a man in that predicament than a woman. This isn't to say that female virgins aren't stigmatized in their own way (viewed as clingy, etc.) but they are viewed differently than male virgins.

 

Now on the issue of rejection vs insecurity and which came first. I think that's one of the fundamental problems facing the men on this forum in your shoes (like 49322 or Somdedude81). Everyone experiences external and internal validation, and having a balance of the two is key to having a healthy sense of self. Too much internal validation and one becomes a narcissist, too much external validation and one becomes a basket case who continually needs to fish for compliments and/or becomes too reliant on others. I'd imagine being late to the relationship party has greatly disrupted that balance and caused secondary issues that only feed the insecurity.

[AHardDaysNight]

Interesting points. I'd have to agree with you about the wide public perception about virginity and inexperience. There's a reason why the 40 Year Old Virgin starred a man and not a woman, and that's because the public feels better about laughing at a man in that predicament than a woman. This isn't to say that female virgins aren't stigmatized in their own way (viewed as clingy, etc.) but they are viewed differently than male virgins.

 

You make a good point, in that male virginity is seen as different to female virginity. Sure, people laughed at Susan Boyle, but after they stopped laughing, they went out and bought both of her studio albums (me included) and saw her on tour.

 

Plus, Andy wasn't that unattractive. He was socially awkward. He was actually the most mentally healthy person in the movie, listening to a great classic rock band (yeah, I like Asia), having an interest in collectables, and not letting his virginity destroy him.

 

In fact, it was his friends who had the biggest issue with him being a 40 year old virgin. Andy just felt a bit uncomfortable, but was coping well with it.

 

Now on the issue of rejection vs insecurity and which came first. I think that's one of the fundamental problems facing the men on this forum in your shoes (like 49322 or Somdedude81). Everyone experiences external and internal validation, and having a balance of the two is key to having a healthy sense of self. Too much internal validation and one becomes a narcissist, too much external validation and one becomes a basket case who continually needs to fish for compliments and/or becomes too reliant on others. I'd imagine being late to the relationship party has greatly disrupted that balance and caused secondary issues that only feed the insecurity.

 

I think part of the problem is that I was fed external validation from girls that was negative early on. In that sense, I've always felt like a loser, no matter what I have done or what I could do.

 

It's like playing sports. I get made fun of when I play touch football. The solution? Never play touch football, and hate football with a passion. Oh yeah, I really don't dislike football THAT much, but I dislike it, because I get made fun of for playing it.

 

Back in junior high, I was called a pathetic weakling by the gym teacher, while trying to do chin ups. You know how I yo-yo back and forth when trying to lose weight and exercise? That's because I hate exercise, and it all goes back to 6th grade gym and the gym teacher yelling at me and telling me that I was a no-good nerd.

 

This all makes me jealous when it comes to other guys, because A.) they're good at sports and exercise, B.) they're socially skilled, and C.) they use A and B to attract good looking girls. Doesn't matter if they're a skinny nerd; they use their assets to their advantage.

 

I actually have a fear of playing my music (that I write) outside of my apartment, room, whatever. Why? Because I feel like I'll be laughed at, and called no good. All of that hard work, writing all those albums and riffs and putting it all together...that would be all erased if I was told that I was a waste of space and that I shouldn't give up my day job.

 

You see, I'm like Marty McFly in that Back To The Future movie, although I'm that way with girls, too. I have plenty of demo cds, but don't send them in to record co's because I'm afraid of rejection. I get plenty of pretty girls smiling at me, even today, but I don't approach or ask out because I'm afraid of rejection.

 

In that sense, I am taking solace in the comfort of making friends with girls, because I get to experience femininity without having to panic about kissing, having sex, and having a bunch of firsts...all late in life. All of this is tied together with early negative external validation, where I feel like a pathetic no-good loser nerd who will never get a girl. No matter how much I exercise, no matter how much I play rock on my guitar, no matter how much I push myself in my college classes.

 

This is what has fueled my two suicide attempts. And I suppose I get the same feeling from here, when I'm told by guys who are good with women, that I should give up my value system, become an a hole, and read a bunch of pickup books so that I can become something I'm not...because of course, I am a no-good loser nerd as I am, and don't deserve love.

[fortyninethousand322]

This all makes me jealous when it comes to other guys, because A.) they're good at sports and exercise, B.) they're socially skilled, and C.) they use A and B to attract good looking girls. Doesn't matter if they're a skinny nerd; they use their assets to their advantage.

 

I wish. I play on a co-ed basketball team and I'm easily the best guy on the team (everyone else is pretty good too though), and I've been playing basketball and other sports for years. And while I'm horrible with girls I do pretty well making friends so I'm "socially skilled" but NO GIRL has ever thought my social skills and basketball talents justified wanting to date me.

 

If you want to be self conscious about something, find something else because the sports guys have no intrinsic advantage. If we did, I wouldn't be on LS.

[somedude81]

Read material other then Maxim and Playboy about women. Women are more likely to read material about how to better relate to men or themselves. (Self Help books).

And what material are men supposed to read about women?

Engage with women for purely the joy of learing what women are about instead of it being about what you can get from a woman (I.E. Sex).

I engage with plenty of women. Learning about women that way is, complicated. Women shift a lot and can respond very differently based on who they are interacting with and even that varies at different times.

 

I actually haven't learned that much about women from my female friends I've had.

Talk to other men about women in other terms then T&A.

That's what I'm trying to do. But T&A is really the only thing that's complicated.

Talk to your mother's and sisters about women. Learn about women instead of just trying to figure out how to get what you want from women.

I don't have any sisters but I've talked to my grandmothers, mother and step-mother about women.

 

I've basically been told to be a gentleman, have good manners and be respectful.

 

None of that would actually help with getting a woman to date me.

[AHardDaysNight]

I wish. I play on a co-ed basketball team and I'm easily the best guy on the team (everyone else is pretty good too though), and I've been playing basketball and other sports for years. And while I'm horrible with girls I do pretty well making friends so I'm "socially skilled" but NO GIRL has ever thought my social skills and basketball talents justified wanting to date me.

 

If you want to be self conscious about something, find something else because the sports guys have no intrinsic advantage. If we did, I wouldn't be on LS.

 

Thanks for this.

 

I suppose I just get jealous. But I suppose the sports guys are just as jealous towards the artistic guys.

[udolipixie]

I don't. Re-read my post. There are prostitutes forced into the business, however forcing someone into sex against their will is already a crime (rape) as are human trafficking and other such offenses. There are prostitutes who choose to rent out their bodies for sexual services. They should be free to do so if they want.

 

If it isn't a crime for them to rent out their bodies, then why should it be a crime for men to pay them for services?

 

This is where the law is fail. It protects women that sell sex because it's easy, but if men (who don't have it easy in getting it) take advantage of it, then suddenly it's illegal!

 

I haven't seen a situation where a town that stated it was legal for someone to sell their body for sex also stated it was illegal for the guy to pay to use the body. Not sure what state tells women it's okay to sell their body yet prosecutes the men who pay to use their bodies.

 

As for the law failing it's that the laws are different one place may consider prostitution not a crime so it doesn't arrest the men while the other considers it a crime so the men are arrested.

 

Go to places were it isn't a crime for someone to sell their body and it won't be a crime to pay them to use their body.

[AHardDaysNight]

^ You obviously don't realize that prostitution is a crime only for the johns. The men will be arrested, but the women will be given a free pass.

 

It is that way in my state, and I'm sure it's that way in other states that frown on prostitution.

 

Not that I would engage in prostitution, even if it were legal. I want a relationship. I just got into debating the logic of this with you and other posters.

[udolipixie]

^ You obviously don't realize that prostitution is a crime only for the johns. The men will be arrested, but the women will be given a free pass.

 

I thought you were talking about it when it's legal for the woman to sell her body but illegal for the man to pay to use it.

If it isn't a crime for them to rent out their bodies, then why should it be a crime for men to pay them for services?

 

This is where the law is fail. It protects women that sell sex because it's easy, but if men (who don't have it easy in getting it) take advantage of it, then suddenly it's illegal!

 

So did you meant...?:

1. prostitution when it's illegal

2. that it's not a crime for her because it doesn't get treated like one

 

I didn't get that since I have a different view of crime just because you didn't get punished for it doesn't mean it's not a crime to do it. So when you said not a crime for her to sell her body I got legal to do.

 

If prostitution is illegal then it's a crime for all both parties. More men who pay for sex get punished for committing the crime then the woman selling it. It's some bias that if she's selling it then she must disadvantaged and that it would be more stress to punish her...blahing.

 

At least the protecting bit makes sense now. I thought you were applying the protecting bit to QZ's trafficking & forcing into business.

 

I was just ignoring my wow to type yes there should be laws to protect these women and the guys who force/trackiff are not doing a brush off like taking advantage.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

ChessPieceFace

Doesn't take much time to type up a couple posts. I don't see how "investing that time in getting to know women" would have helped.

 

You entirely miss the point. Typing up posts isn't the problem. It's the festering in complaining about women that is. If you hold all this bitterness to women it's going to hold you back from relating to them or from them wanting to relate to you. You can't sit and complain about women but expect a good one to come your way.

 

Also, what's to know?

 

That's your issue right there.

 

I've been around women my whole life and it never helped; in fact it did the opposite. Listening to most womens' advice on what men should do to get women is a huge mistake, because most women do not understand their own motivations.

 

This is completely condsending and a popular attitude around men that don't have much of a good opinion on women. Which again goes back to the not being able to hold a negative opinion with women while at the same time desiring a romantic relationship. Those two just don't go together. You don't outwardly even need to say to a woman your real thoughts on them. They will pick it up in one way or another.

 

I bet you would expect women to take advice about men from men. The fact that you don't think women are capable of knowing themselves is ridiculous.

 

Of course, not every woman does. Just like not every man does. Thats why it's important to talk to members of the opposite sex you respect. Further, you can read books by real professionals that don't include how to pick women up for cheap sex or the little awfully bain articles there are in Maxim.

 

They will usually tell you to do a bunch of idealistic nonsense which reflects what they BELIEVE they want, not what actually attracts them. More to the point, they're telling you to do all the things their piggish boyfriends DON'T do, what they WISH their piggish boyfriends did, without realizing that the lack of doing said things is part of the reason they are with said pigs.

 

This shows your complete lack of understanding about good women. And your hung-up on the kind of women that might not be best matches for you.

 

 

Wrong again. Women are to blame; but that is to say, the human genome in relation to the pre-wiring of womens' brains to be attracted to pigs, is to blame.

 

Thank you for continually proving my point. You don't understand anything about women or how to relate to them or what they are about. So you will continue to fester in your own bitterment of them while expecting one to connect with you. Perhaps your the one living in Lala land.

 

Women are not wired to be attracted to "pigs" . Women are wired to be attracted to strong men that can protect them...HOWEVER, that doesn't JUST mean brute force in our modern world. That definintion has expanded to many other wonderful qualities a man can have.

 

 

It's not like most women CONSCIOUSLY go out and date pigs.

 

They don't. But some do due to their own issues. Healthy women don't date men that treat them badly. Some men also date bad women. They don't consciously do that. But "she is so pretty" sometimes trumps common sense. Stop pretending that men don't do this as well. Do I focus on those men? No. I look for men that know themselves well enough and don't have those kind of issues instead of complaining about the men that do.

 

 

 

So in that sense, since it isn't a conscious choice, you can't blame the womens' conscious minds or believed intentions. Yet, it is their fault all the same. It is their fault insofar as they are unable or unwilling to rise above their own nature, unable or unwilling to take a rational look at their own actions and choices and psyche and set themselves on a better course.

 

Your attitude toward women is completely condesending and shows how little you really know about women.

 

There's plenty of worthwhile men out there. If a woman isn't hideously ugly (in that case you can blame mens' genome for wanting good looks) then in most cases she shouldn't have any problem finding a worthwhile man. It is her fault that she is unhappy, dating piggish men, and it is her fault that whatever worthwhile guy she should be dating is alone

.

 

Ohhh I see..a man's nature to want good looks is something men shouldn't be expected to rise above but what *you* (not me) describe as being part of a woman's nature is something worthy of your contempt and bitterment about how they should "rise above it".

 

I just feel sorry for you. You seem like a very unhealthy individual.

 

Several of my female facebook friends like to rant about men and say "all men are pigs" or that same thing in many different ways. They believe that, because it is only the pigs that they go after. (And also because they are misandrists. That means man-haters.)

 

You've attracted female friends that don't have a good opinion of men because you are a man that doesn't have a good opinion of woman. You've made generalization after generalization about women and it's all been pretty hateful and full of contempt. You can see the misandrists lurking in their comments but yet you can't see the misogony lurking in yours.

 

 

You will undoubtedly try to equivocate or turn the argument around, and I'll tell you in advance that you're dead wrong. There is little or no equivalence here (the main valid one being mens' attraction to good looks, which I already mentioned.)

 

I don't have to try to turn this argument around. It wasn't a very good argument to begin with on your part.

 

But again, i like how you excuse men's "nature" but women are suppoes to "rise above theirs. That's about as hypocritical as they come.

 

 

How often do you know of guys turning down women, vs. women turning down men?

 

I've been turned down by men. And I've turned men down. It's a back and forth and thats what you and some other men here fail to realize. That women are in it just like you. Human beings. Human beings that don't get treated well sometimes and get turned down or rejected just like a man can. But admitting that means relating to women on a level that would require you to see women in a more human light and not the enemy you really want to see them as. Because if you can keep blaming women for everything they you don't have to take any responsibility of yourself about what you may do that causes women to not want to relate to you.

 

My suggestion that the men here get to know women, through many different avenues isn't that hard of a task. The fact that it's been met with so much confrontation astounds me but goes to prove why you won't ever be able to relate to women if you stay on this current path.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Somedude81

And what material are men supposed to read about women?

 

Go to Barnes and Noble and figure it out Somedude. Usually women are more likely to read books on relationships. I don't think it would hurt men to do some relationsihp reading. And not fluff books about how to put the game on a woman to pick her up. Books by educated professionals. \

 

I engage with plenty of women. Learning about women that way is, complicated. Women shift a lot and can respond very differently based on who they are interacting with and even that varies at different times.

 

Women can be complicated but there is a base foundation on how we operate. Learn to enjoy are differences instead of berating us for them.

 

I actually haven't learned that much about women from my female friends I've had.

 

Okay. Yeah. You are right. Men learn nothign from the women in their lives. Everything you've learned about women has nothing to do with your actual interaction with them.

 

That's what I'm trying to do. But T&A is really the only thing that's complicated.

 

Refering to women as T&A is condesending. You wouldn't like it if/when a woman refers to men in terms of their d8cks or just amounting to being d8cks. Extend the same kindness to women and refer to them as women instead of snarky little immature jibs and refering to them as T&A.

 

I don't have any sisters but I've talked to my grandmothers, mother and step-mother about women. I've basically been told to be a gentleman, have good manners and be respectful.None of that would actually help with getting a woman to date me.

 

Why should it? Being nice alone isn't enough to get anyone. I'm a very nice person. I open doors for men just like I do women. It doesn't mean every man wants to date me. Being a gentlemen is a positive. Having good manners and being respectful are key. But if this is all you expect to have to relate to woman you are in trouble. Because despite my good manners and respectful way I treat men, I don't expect this to be the only thing that draws a man to me. Perhaps you need to dig deeper into your conversations with your grandmother or mother. As them things about their relationships. How they met your father and grandfather. What kind of things these men did to impress them..yada yada...

[somedude81]

Go to Barnes and Noble and figure it out Somedude. Usually women are more likely to read books on relationships. I don't think it would hurt men to do some relationsihp reading. And not fluff books about how to put the game on a woman to pick her up. Books by educated professionals. \

There are plenty of books on relationships but virtually all books for men on how to get into a relationship, are pick up stuff.

 

I haven't seen anything like a Communicating with Women 101.

 

Women can be complicated but there is a base foundation on how we operate. Learn to enjoy are differences instead of berating us for them.

There are many things to enjoy about women.

 

But after being continually rejected for my entire life, it's hard to think that everything is rainbows and butterflies.

 

Okay. Yeah. You are right. Men learn nothign from the women in their lives. Everything you've learned about women has nothing to do with your actual interaction with them.

My point was that what I've learned so far hasn't really helped me.

 

I'm 30 years old and I've never been in a relationship. So there is obviously something I've missed.

 

Refering to women as T&A is condesending. You wouldn't like it if/when a woman refers to men in terms of their d8cks or just amounting to being d8cks. Extend the same kindness to women and refer to them as women instead of snarky little immature jibs and refering to them as T&A.

You're the one who first used T&A. Look it up, I quoted you.

 

 

 

Why should it? Being nice alone isn't enough to get anyone.

I didn't say it should.

 

But that is the only advice I've gotten from the women in my family.

 

Perhaps you need to dig deeper into your conversations with your grandmother or mother. As them things about their relationships. How they met your father and grandfather. What kind of things these men did to impress them..yada yada...

My mom married my dad to spite her father. Little rich white girl goes after a dark Cuban boy because he's nothing like her father. She told me that.

 

I don't exactly know why my Stepmother married my dad. He was several years older than her and had two little kids. Though he is very outgoing.

 

My grandmother married my grandfather because he had money. He turned out to be an abusive alcoholic and everybody left him.

 

My other grandmother started dating my grandfather when she was 16. And they just stuck together till he died.

 

None of that can really help me.

[fortyninethousand322]

This sentence alone tells me you know very little about women. It's still about "getting their panties wet" instead of seeing women as people with a unique set of needs, you've still turned it into how best to make women wet so you can best get in there. And I'm sorry but that has nothing to do with really getting to know women.

 

 

 

Women want to know that a man knows how to relate to women. If a man is having trouble getting a girlfriend, he might be having a hard time relating to women. So he needs to invest some time in learning about women. This will give him confidence. And if he is confidence in the presence of a woman and knows how to treat her, it won't matter what his sexual status is.

 

I will submit the "sexual tension thread" to refute this post.(http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299729)

 

I think getting to know and understand women is wonderful, but it's not the single most important thing in getting women to be attracted to a man. Lots of guys can be great around platonic female friends/acquaintances but have real trouble when it comes to creating attraction.