Your view on male virginity vs male use of prostitution

[Nexus One]

That's not Checkpoint is it? It was the biggest coffeeshop in the Netherlands. It had to close down a few years ago, and was the owner was fined 10 million Euros last year for overstepping the boundaries/being involved in a criminal organisation.

 

While that name sounds familiar, I have no idea if it was. As far as I know the one I'm referring to is still in business.

 

It's the big problem with the coffee shops. Yes, the law permits people to partake of a limited amount in a coffee shop, and it's all very open...but the difficulty relates to how the coffee shop owners get their supplies. If their suppliers were Joe Bloggs making a tidy sideline growing a few cannabis plants in his spare room then fine. Unfortunately, cultivation for commercial purposes seems to be largely in the mafia's hands...hence the clamping down on coffefe houses.

 

From what I know many coffee shop owners grow it themselves, in their houses and yards. Of course for the really big ones that's not enough and they'll have to get more of it from somewhere else. They probably get it from clandestine sources, but those sources are often regular people growing it in their basements to make an extra buck.

 

So for me, the better solution is where prostitutes know their clients and have regular dealings with them. Friends With Benefits who happen to pay the woman for sex because that is the business she's running.

 

In an ideal world, yes. But then you only see it from the perspective of women. Single men come home from work alone and there's usually not an FWB waiting for them there. So take a guess what some of them are going to do? There will always be people that will see business opportunities in that. Besides, there are brothels owned and run fully by women. They hire security firms to protect "their flock", so that also puts a dent in criminal organisations dominating the market, limiting their income and power/influence.

 

Thanks Onyx. Prostitution is a major moneyspinner for some terrible organisations....so when people are actively promoting it as a positive thing, like you a big part of me wonders at their priorities.

 

When it comes to priorities, then in my opinion the safety and wellbeing of those women is most important. I think that tends to be somewhat better in a legalized and regulated environment rather than in countries where it's unlawful and fully run by criminal organisations. If you make it unlawful, the only direction it will be pushed into is the criminal sector. In my opinion that's a consequence of making it unlawful.

 

However, I realise a lot of people take the view of Nexus...that they would hope that in time prostitution will be a business that is most usually controlled by the direct participants, rather than something in which they're being exploited by crime syndicates.

 

There are women who consciously choose the career of becoming a prostitute and there are also women that run brothels as a business themselves, creating a relatively mild environment for the women to work in.

 

In my opinion it is a choice between two evils, except what can you do other than choosing the lesser evil of the two? If there was a perfect solution I'd be all for it, but there simply isn't one (yet). So what else can you do but make the best of it?

Edited October 22, 2011 by Nexus One

[123321]

Actually, I've dated quite a few women LOL... and they actually do come onto me semi frequently

 

I admit, I assume(d) he was interested in dating straight women, until I hear otherwise I'll go with that. Who would be best suited to give advice on fishing, the experienced fisherman or the bucket of fish he's got beside him?

 

 

 

 

The main situation is when a woman decides to sell her body for a profit.

 

....

 

Wish someone would coerce me into that kinda work. Not bad if you can get it.

 

Most people who are commenting on this are pretty much talking out their ass, they have no experience to base their opinions on and their only sources of information are popular portrayals, "news" articles, and an occasional sound bite from a politician. I have known literally hundreds of prostitutes (no, not in the Biblical sense, just socially) and not a single one was forced into it except by financial pressure, much like a young boy might feel the Army is his only chance to better his life.

 

Many of the girls I have known were paying for themselves or their siblings to get an education, and many eventually took the windfall from their lucrative work and used it to buy a business or otherwise actually improve their station in life.

 

The ones who didn't have that as a goal can best be summed up by what one woman told me: "I don't mind this work, I go out dating every night, when I find a customer I sell my *****, wash it, and I can sell it again if I like".

 

In short, people who don't know what they are talking about should probably STFU and mind their own business.

 

 

 

 

Human trafficking is not a reason to ban prostitution completely. Thats a logical fallacy. Its like saying the existence of child pornography is a reason to ban the internet altogether.

 

Human trafficking as a problem that's fueled by prostitution is overblown by "Christian" NGOs looking for funding; unbiased research into trafficking shows (1) it is a problem and (2) the most common by far offenses are against young MEN who are destined for use as farm equipment.

 

But you don't hear that so much. No one cares about them.

 

 

 

 

So all laws are evil because they prevent people from doing what they want to do? So we'd all be better off without any laws ...

 

Again, either willfully or intrinsically obtuse.

 

If it's legal to go to the store on a Sunday morning to shop for the old lady next door, then it should be legal to shop for the old lady next door for a fee. If it's illegal to kill someone in a given circumstance, it should be illegal whether the killer is being paid, or not.

 

To make something illegal without justification is evil.

 

Now, if you wanted to make extra-marital sex illegal, most would disagree, but at least your view would be logically consistent. As it is, not so much.

[somedude81]

Ugh, I'm horny. Anybody want to buy me a hooker?

 

Me love you long time.

[Taramere]

Most people who are commenting on this are pretty much talking out their ass, they have no experience to base their opinions on and their only sources of information are popular portrayals, "news" articles, and an occasional sound bite from a politician. I have known literally hundreds of prostitutes (no, not in the Biblical sense, just socially) and not a single one was forced into it except by financial pressure, much like a young boy might feel the Army is his only chance to better his life.

 

Many of the girls I have known were paying for themselves or their siblings to get an education, and many eventually took the windfall from their lucrative work and used it to buy a business or otherwise actually improve their station in life.

 

The ones who didn't have that as a goal can best be summed up by what one woman told me: "I don't mind this work, I go out dating every night, when I find a customer I sell my *****, wash it, and I can sell it again if I like".

 

In short, people who don't know what they are talking about should probably STFU and mind their own business.

 

So does this mean that your anecdotal evidence gleaned through knowing girls who turn tricks to earn extra cash trumps evidence of widespread human trafficking collected by police forces and intelligence agencies? If you've met lots of girls who run a bit of a sideline in prostitution, does this mean that the police forces and intelligence agencies are just talking out of their asses, and should STFU and mind their own business?

 

I'm sure there are a lot of criminal organisations that would stand up and applaud you for that. However, if it's a choice between the anecdotal evidence of 123321 from Loveshack, and the word of organisations that investigate organised crime for a living, I'm going to give more weight to the professional organisations. If they say that, for example, the Albanian Mafia now control more than 70% of the massage parlours in Soho then I believe them.

 

I've no reason to disbelieve that socially you know hundreds of women who are prostitutes. It suggests a social circle that isn't really the norm, perhaps, but I don't have a problem believing it.

 

Do you have some insider knowledge that puts you in a position to pooh pooh the findings of police forces and intelligence agencies?

 

Human trafficking as a problem that's fueled by prostitution is overblown by "Christian" NGOs looking for funding; unbiased research into trafficking shows (1) it is a problem and (2) the most common by far offenses are against young MEN who are destined for use as farm equipment.

 

In South Africa. I agree that transporting young men, against their will, to labour as slaves on the farms and in the mines of South Africa is a heinous crime against them and against humanity.

 

But you don't hear that so much. No one cares about them.

 

Most probably because it's in Africa, and when people hear of the hellish practices on that continent there tends to be a reaction of total helplessness. People tend to shift their focus away from horror stories that they feel powerless to do anything about...and when it comes to horror stories taking place on the African continent, I think the sense of powerlessness is multiplied.

 

You can't compare the worst of what happens to what goes on there. However, does that make it acceptable to pooh pooh human rights breaches taking place on your own doorstep as "overblown. Far worse things are going on in Mozambique"?

 

I think it's an admirable (though probably futile) exercise for anybody to commit themselves to trying to address human rights breaches on the African continent....but if they're less concerned about actually trying to improve people's lives there, more concerned with using the example of Africa as a reason for people to "STFU" about organised crime on their own doorstep, then that's something else altogether.

 

And this is what often bothers me about libertarianism. That when it comes down to it, libertarianism would demand that people butt out...not only out of the arrangements of consenting adults, which don't harm any third party (which I agree with butting out of), but out of situations where there is not real consent, and where a person's human rights are being criminally breached.

[Metis]

While many women in poor countries do indeed willingly enter prostitution and sign up with outfits that transport them to the West, none of them, as far as I know, consent to beatings, working round the clock, being forced to service sadistic or diseased customers, serial abortions, slave wages, and having virtually no freedom of movement. Perhaps in a broad philosophical sense, that makes them no different than any other worker who is dissatisfied with his or her working environment, as opposed to the profession itself, but in terms of realities, trafficked prostitutes have the worst working conditions in the West (and indeed, most of the world) than any other occupation.

 

Besides, legality is one thing, ethics is another. I support legalizing prostitution, and I think that hunting down prostitutes and johns is silly and counter-productive. In my personal life, however, a man's history of using prostitutes would be a huge turn-off. For one thing, one's regular use of prostitutes raises the strong possibility that commodifying women is that man's kink, and while he may eventually succumb to social pressures to enter a more conventional arrangement, he may not be able to have a sexually satisfying relationship with a willing and enthusiastic partner. STD's are another concern. In general, the idea of a man knowingly "using" a woman who would not be willing to sleep with him except for the money or because she's afraid of her boss beating her (the fact that it may be a female boss makes no difference whatsoever) -- it's extremely unsettling. I suppose there are some situations in which male virginity is a turn-off, as well, but as far as turn-offs go, it's not even in the same ballpark.

 

To the person who said that "prostitution is the oldest profession": I'm sorry to have to say this, but "clever" one-liners invariably make very silly arguments. What does its age matter? Besides, it's not even true. Prostitution is not the oldest profession. Being a slave is the oldest profession. Do you think that's enough of a reason to bring back slavery?

[carhill]

Reflecting upon the history of a particular part of society does not imply any sort of argument. Where you got that was out of your ass. That's all I'll say to you.

[fortyninethousand322]

I love how everyone here has gotten caught up in the "prostitution" part of this thread and not the "virginity" part. I guess one is easier to deal with than the other.

[Taramere]

In my personal life, however, a man's history of using prostitutes would be a huge turn-off. For one thing, one's regular use of prostitutes raises the strong possibility that commodifying women is that man's kink, and while he may eventually succumb to social pressures to enter a more conventional arrangement, he may not be able to have a sexually satisfying relationship with a willing and enthusiastic partner.

 

Agreed. I suspect that men who have used prostitutes at some point (stag party, holiday, curious "one off" situation) are most probably in the majority. Similarly, loads of people out there have dabbled with drugs at some point. People go through an experimental stage...or for some people, they maybe hit a low point where they do something they wouldn't normally do.

 

I'd see the "regular John" in a totally different category from "regular guy who has dabbled". I think the only way a woman could really cope in a relationship with a regular consumer of prostitutes would be if she were the type who could completely turn a blind eye....or if she had a history of prostitution herself and would therefore be able to understand him. Either be the "happy hooker" he expected or play a good imitation of it.

 

ETA re last post by 49k. I don't think virginity in itself is a turn off. It doesn't mean he's not going to be able to have sex when it comes down to it. Personality traits or circumstances contributing to the virginal state might be a problem though, though. Merging the two together...the man whose only sexual experience is derived from encounters with prostitutes is sort of like a virgin in terms of really not having a clue about women beyond interacting with those who have a professional duty to play a certain role he's comfortable with.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Taramere

[ascendotum]

I have known literally hundreds of prostitutes (no, not in the Biblical sense, just socially) and not a single one was forced into it except by financial pressure, much like a young boy might feel the Army is his only chance to better his life.

 

Many of the girls I have known were paying for themselves or their siblings to get an education, and many eventually took the windfall from their lucrative work and used it to buy a business or otherwise actually improve their station in life.

 

I agree prostitiution is not so B&W evil as a number of the commentators here have portrayed. A brothel run by Albanians in macedonia or moldovia (where you can probably buy a bag of smack + an AK47 downstairs as well) is hardly the typical establishment that some men on this forum are going to frequent. The trafficking of women for prostitution is terrible (as is men for labourers as the above poster pointed out), but its not the normal case for hookers in countries where it is legal. Yes, girls from asia still get trafficked in my country by scumbag operators, but the numbers are small, but it makes headlines. It gets much bigger news coverage than the fact that the majority of women who do the profession are students and single mothers (welfare support for SMs is quite good, they just want the nicer things in life).

 

I love how everyone here has gotten caught up in the "prostitution" part of this thread and not the "virginity" part. I guess one is easier to deal with than the other.

That's easy...a hooker is the answer silly. Edited October 23, 2011 by ascendotum

[123321]

So does this mean that your anecdotal evidence gleaned through knowing girls who turn tricks to earn extra cash trumps evidence of widespread human trafficking collected by police forces and intelligence agencies? If you've met lots of girls who run a bit of a sideline in prostitution, does this mean that the police forces and intelligence agencies are just talking out of their asses, and should STFU and mind their own business?

 

Typically, here's how it goes. An NGO pressures a police dept to bust a brothel. During the bust the women try to escape, and those who do try to find work in other brothels. Those who get caught end up being interviewed by NGO and police personnel. They can either admit to being there of their own will and be charged with a crime, or claim to be a victim of human trafficking and not be charged.

 

Do the math.

 

This is where the "official" statistics largely come from.

 

In fact some of the worst abuses come during the bust when cops rape the women on site, sometimes even captured on CCTV, and afterwards when corrections officers rape them in jail.

 

 

 

In South Africa. I agree that transporting young men, against their will, to labour as slaves on the farms and in the mines of South Africa is a heinous crime against them and against humanity.

 

Also in SEA.

 

 

 

I support legalizing prostitution, and I think that hunting down prostitutes and johns is silly and counter-productive. In my personal life, however, a man's history of using prostitutes would be a huge turn-off.

 

I would say that's a completely reasonable stance.

[Taramere]

Typically, here's how it goes. An NGO pressures a police dept to bust a brothel. During the bust the women try to escape, and those who do try to find work in other brothels. Those who get caught end up being interviewed by NGO and police personnel. They can either admit to being there of their own will and be charged with a crime, or claim to be a victim of human trafficking and not be charged.

 

Do the math.

 

This is where the "official" statistics largely come from.

 

I'm open to the possibility that a woman might lie about having been coerced into prostitution in order to avoid a criminal charge. If she says she's been coerced, then there are steps to take. For example

 

1. Medical examination (eg signs of bruising or weals on the body that would be consistent with claims of physical abuse. Bones that have been broken in the past. Signs of drug abuse. Poor state of health indicating sleep deprivation.

 

2. Psychological assessment (bearing in mind that a psychologist's report could be invaluable evidence in a later trial)

 

3. Communication with the woman's family to find out what sort of contact - if any - they have been having with her. Whether they have had concerns about her safety and wellbeing.

 

4. Investigation of the circumstances by which she travelled to the UK.

 

I don't think it's wise to make any assumptions about whether or not a woman is lying or telling the truth in that situation. Further investigation is required...particularly where there are allegations of human trafficking and violent coercion into prostitution. If members of an organised group are going to be charged with that, there needs to be evidence.

 

What I'm consistently getting from your comments here is that the only prostitutes whose word you trust are those whose statements conform to your existing beliefs about prostitution.

 

I used to work in residential settings with teenagers who couldn't (for whatever reason) live with their families. Prostitution was a regular issue. I really don't think those kids were smart and sussed businesspeople who were operating in a fully consensual way, free of exploitation.

 

Some woman who's talking about her fabulous experience of working in the industry to fund her way through university may well feel be a babe in total control of herself. She might be impressively articulate. A good businesswoman. Does that make her the all-knowing spokeswoman for prostitutes and others in the sex industry? Do her experiences have anything to do with the experiences of women further down the socioeconomic ladder? Do her opinions and her positive experience of the sex industry negate their experiences? Or do they only count if they conform to your own world view?

 

Your comment again...

 

They can either admit to being there of their own will and be charged with a crime, or claim to be a victim of human trafficking and not be charged.

 

You've already formed, in your mind, a picture of what the truth of the situation is. Where's the objectivity in that? Is there a possibility that some of the hundreds of prostitutes you've discussed these issues with might get an inkling of what your belief set is, and present accordingly? "What's your name?" "Whatever you want it to be."

Edited October 23, 2011 by Taramere

[AHardDaysNight]

I love how everyone here has gotten caught up in the "prostitution" part of this thread and not the "virginity" part. I guess one is easier to deal with than the other.

 

It's because people want to pretend virgins don't exist.

 

Then when they find out their mate is a 40 year old virgin, there is nothing but shock. "But...but...but I thought you were gay!"

 

<EPIC FAIL>

[KathyM]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, either willfully or intrinsically obtuse.

 

If it's legal to go to the store on a Sunday morning to shop for the old lady next door, then it should be legal to shop for the old lady next door for a fee. If it's illegal to kill someone in a given circumstance, it should be illegal whether the killer is being paid, or not.

 

To make something illegal without justification is evil.

 

Now, if you wanted to make extra-marital sex illegal, most would disagree, but at least your view would be logically consistent. As it is, not so much.

Where's the inconsistency in what I am saying? Laws are created to control the behavior of others. If a behavior is deemed harmful to others, it is made illegal. Just like making it illegal to take certain drugs because it harms the person and potentially those they come in contact with, or making it illegal to smoke in public places because it harms others, society has determined that prostitution is harmful to society. It harms the women who engage in it, it harms the patrons and their families, and it puts money into the hands of criminals who do all kinds of damaging things to society. That is the justification for making it illegal. It's harmful to people, and to society. The money you spend supports a lifestyle that is harmful to people and harmful to society, just like if you were to buy drugs from some guy on the street or some guy in your community. You may think that should be just a transaction between two adults, but by doing that, you are supporting his damaging lifestyle, your own damaging lifestyle, and all the criminal activities that are tied into that illegal business.

[AHardDaysNight]

Where's the inconsistency in what I am saying? Laws are created to control the behavior of others. If a behavior is deemed harmful to others, it is made illegal. Just like making it illegal to take certain drugs because it harms the person and potentially those they come in contact with, or making it illegal to smoke in public places because it harms others, society has determined that prostitution is harmful to society. It harms the women who engage in it, it harms the patrons and their families, and it puts money into the hands of criminals who do all kinds of damaging things to society. That is the justification for making it illegal. It's harmful to people, and to society. The money you spend supports a lifestyle that is harmful to people and harmful to society, just like if you were to buy drugs from some guy on the street or some guy in your community. You may think that should be just a transaction between two adults, but by doing that, you are supporting his damaging lifestyle, your own damaging lifestyle, and all the criminal activities that are tied into that illegal business.

 

What about men becoming 30 year old virgins?

 

I'd say that's miles more harmful than prostitution. You know the guy who killed himself because he had never been kissed, and he was 40 years old? That kind of guy never makes the news.

[KathyM]

What about men becoming 30 year old virgins?

 

I'd say that's miles more harmful than prostitution. You know the guy who killed himself because he had never been kissed, and he was 40 years old? That kind of guy never makes the news.

It's not harmful to virgins or society to be a virgin. The guy you are referring to felt so emotionally unloved and worthless that he felt he had no choice but to put an end to his pain. Going to a hooker is devoid of emotion, caring or love. Like having sex with an empty shell, as the man put it whom I interviewed.

[AHardDaysNight]

It's not harmful to virgins or society to be a virgin. The guy you are referring to felt so emotionally unloved and worthless that he felt he had no choice but to put an end to his pain. Going to a hooker is devoid of emotion, caring or love. Like having sex with an empty shell, as the man put it whom I interviewed.

 

I think the typical virgin male would disagree with you.

[Floridaman]

I think the typical virgin male would disagree with you.

But that may be a perception, not reality

[KathyM]

I think the typical virgin male would disagree with you.

What is harmful to a male virgin, assuming it's one who considers his status to be a negative, is that he is feeling rejected by women and unloveable. Buying sex is not going to make him feel accepted by women or loved. It's an empty experience devoid of love or caring. A very impersonal monetary transaction.

[Wolf18]

What is harmful to a male virgin, assuming it's one who considers his status to be a negative, is that he is feeling rejected by women and unloveable. Buying sex is not going to make him feel accepted by women or loved. It's an empty experience devoid of love or caring. A very impersonal monetary transaction.

 

 

So what, who is pretending you can buy love or care? A rich guy whose ugly but has a girlfriend is devoid of love and care too. There are a thousand different scenarios where you experience women devoid of love and care, prostitution is the only one that's closest to the intimacy someone who loves and cares for you will give you. Definitely get a lot more than I or any man has gotten from his female "friends" who don't think I'm good enough.

 

Legalize prostitution, it's a mental health issue.

[Floridaman]

Originally Posted by AHardDaysNight

 

I think the typical virgin male would disagree with you.

What is harmful to a male virgin, assuming it's one who considers his status to be a negative, is that he is feeling rejected by women and unloveable. Buying sex is not going to make him feel accepted by women or loved. It's an empty experience devoid of love or caring. A very impersonal monetary transaction.

Beatles Fan (very good group, BTW),

Why are you so hung-up on what women might think of your experience?

 

Kathy stated it well earlier. Did you not read what she said?

 

Good sex is a skill that can be learned, and I would much rather enjoy the learning process with a man who valued it as much as I did, than some guy who would do it with any hoe that he came across. I'd rather have the virgin who valued sex and was careful about who he had it with, instead of some player who was more experienced.

....

I'd much rather have the virgin.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3680195&postcount=322

 

Maybe I'm operating in fantasy land, but I don't think most women would hold a guy's inexperience against him, especially the Christian women or ones that may not have that much experience themselves.

 

How many times do we need to say it?

You should be proud of who you are.

 

Say you dated a woman that would belittle you for being a virgin.

Would you just sit there and take it?

Or get up and walk away?

 

Just like anything else, you gonna let someone belittle your views or life?

[Floridaman]

Originally Posted by AHardDaysNight

 

I think the typical virgin male would disagree with you.

What is harmful to a male virgin, assuming it's one who considers his status to be a negative, is that he is feeling rejected by women and unloveable. Buying sex is not going to make him feel accepted by women or loved. It's an empty experience devoid of love or caring. A very impersonal monetary transaction.

Beatles Fan (very good group, BTW),

Why are you so hung-up on what women might think of your experience?

 

Kathy stated it well earlier. Did you not read what she said?

 

Good sex is a skill that can be learned, and I would much rather enjoy the learning process with a man who valued it as much as I did, than some guy who would do it with any hoe that he came across. I'd rather have the virgin who valued sex and was careful about who he had it with, instead of some player who was more experienced.

....

I'd much rather have the virgin.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3680195&postcount=322

 

Maybe I'm operating in fantasy land, but I don't think most women would hold a guy's inexperience against him, especially the Christian women or ones that may not have that much experience themselves.

 

How many times do we need to say it?

You should be proud of who you are.

 

Say you dated a woman that would belittle you for being a virgin.

Would you just sit there and take it?

Or get up and walk away?

 

Just like anything else, you gonna let someone belittle your views or life?

[KathyM]

So what, who is pretending you can buy love or care? A rich guy whose ugly but has a girlfriend is devoid of love and care too. There are a thousand different scenarios where you experience women devoid of love and care, prostitution is the only one that's closest to the intimacy someone who loves and cares for you will give you. Definitely get a lot more than I or any man has gotten from his female "friends" who don't think I'm good enough.

 

Legalize prostitution, it's a mental health issue.

All you're getting is 1/2 hour of physical contact from someone who is desperate or damaged enough to resort to that line of work, who doesn't care about you, only wants your money, who won't even kiss you and most likely thinks you are pathetic and repulsive, but she forces herself to pretend because she wants your money. If that makes you feel good about yourself, then you are not emotionally healthy. And neither is she.

[Floridaman]

double post above. Oops. Wireless card and browser not working so well today.

[Floridaman]

Kathy,

As you've posted you're in the psychology field, are there any studies or surveys out there that show women's views toward virgin or inexperienced men?

 

As there are studies on seemingly everything, thought you might know of some research conducted in that field -- or related research involving older virgins and societal attitudes and peer pressure.

[AHardDaysNight]

The problem is finding a woman who is 29, and still a virgin.

 

A unicorn would exist before I would find one who's that age.

 

I would definitely prefer a virgin, too, or even someone who has never dated before. But I have never found someone like that, either.