Your view on male virginity vs male use of prostitution

[123321]

Like reseearchers do, Kathy likely ran a lit search to see what others in the field have published, then conducted her own in-person interviews.

That's hardly reading "a book."

 

She said she interviewed one (1) guy and read some testimonies. That's far from being an expert and the subject is highly political and otherwise prone to manipulation by people who wish to control or profit from controlling others. If you're really curious go have a look, you will not see what you expect to see, I'd wager.

[OnyxSnowfall]

It would seem that people from both sides here should "educate" themselves more.

[carhill]

Going back to the OP:

 

"It's two seperate themes i see alot here on LS. Men who are virgins are often shunned. However men who use prostitutes not so much."

 

It caused me to reflect a bit upon the anecdote I posted prior, about being a virgin working amongst prostitutes. No one knew I was a virgin. Ostensibly, no one other than the men and prostitutes knew those men were using prostitutes. Standing next to each other, one could not tell me, the virgin, from the prostitute user standing next to me. We were both men. Me, the greasemonkey running machines; them whatever they did. Me single, them unknown. Specifically drilling down to the OP's premise about shunning, perhaps more benignly, 'lack of attraction' - What about the unknown virgin was/is different from the unknown prostitute user to support or refute this assertion?

 

I can think of one main difference, relevant to psychology. As a virgin, whether voluntary or involuntary, I was actively choosing to not pursue all avenues of sexual relations open to me. Either I wasn't sufficiently 'driven' or I actively chose to suppress those drives. How does this compare to the unknown prostitute user? What is his psychology? What impels him to drive way out of his way to the quite unkempt part of town to get sex? How do those impulses permeate his psychology and affect perceptions of others? If the OP is correct, something about this dynamic and its perceptions by those 'shunning' moves them to their behaviors. Remember, no one who is shunning is aware of either man's 'proclivities', only how he behaves and appears to them.

[KathyM]

Originally Posted by KathyM

It's not safe enough, dear boy, and it never will be, even if it is legalized. Because there will always be perverts who want to abuse and degrade, or get it without paying for it.

 

It's much safer where it is legal & most prostitutes work mostly regulars where it's legal, & I'm NOT supporting prostitution here. And your right, there are still pimps who get their cut however in Vegas they are called agencies.

Here are some facts about legalized prostitution and the myth that it is safe and secure now. (Sorry that I can only cut and paste excerpts because of computer issues I'm having):

10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution

Janice G. Raymond

Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW)

March 25, 2003

The following arguments apply to all state-sponsored forms of prostitution, including but not limited to full-scale legalization of brothels and pimping, decriminalization of the sex industry, regulating prostitution by laws such as registering or mandating health checks for women in prostitution, or any system in which prostitution is recognized as sex work or advocated as an employment choice.

As countries are considering legalizing and decriminalizing the sex industry, we urge you to consider the ways in which legitimating prostitution as work does not empower the women in prostitution but does everything to strengthen the sex industry.

1. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.

2. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.

3. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it.

4. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.

5. Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry increases child prostitution.

6. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.

7. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.

8. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.

9. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.

10. Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.

Arguments to follow:

[AHardDaysNight]

Thanks for that, Kathy.

 

I guess virginity is better than losing it to a prostitute. I certainly don't want to get involved in an industry like that.

[KathyM]

1. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.

What does legalization of prostitution or decriminalization of the sex industry mean? In the Netherlands, legalization amounts to sanctioning all aspects of the sex industry: the women themselves, the so-called clients and the pimps who, under the regime of legalization, are transformed into third party businessmen and legitimate sexual entrepreneurs.

Legalization/decriminalization of the sex industry also converts brothels, sex clubs, massage parlors and other sites of prostitution activities into legitimate venues where commercial sexual acts are allowed to flourish legally with few restraints.

Ordinary people believe that, in calling for legalization or decriminalization of prostitution, they are dignifying and professionalizing the women in prostitution. But dignifying prostitution as work doesn't dignify the women, it simply dignifies the sex industry. People often don't realize that decriminalization, for example, means decriminalization of the whole sex industry not just the women. And they haven't thought through the consequences of legalizing pimps as legitimate sex entrepreneurs or third party businessmen, or the fact that men who buy women for sexual activity are now accepted as legitimate consumers of sex.

CATW favors decriminalization of the women in prostitution. No woman should be punished for her own exploitation. But States should never decriminalize pimps, buyers, procurers, brothels or other sex establishments.

2. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.

Legalized or decriminalized prostitution industries are one of the root causes of sex trafficking. One argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that legalization would help end the exploitation of desperate immigrant women trafficked for prostitution. A report done for the governmental Budapest Group* stated that 80% of women in the brothels in the Netherlands are trafficked from other countries (Budapest Group, 1999: 11). As early as 1994, the International Organization of Migration (IOM) stated that in the Netherlands alone, nearly 70 per cent of trafficked women were from CEEC [Central and Eastern European Countries] (IOM, 1995: 4).

The government of the Netherlands promotes itself as the champion of anti-trafficking policies and programs, yet cynically has removed every legal impediment to pimping, procurement and brothels. In the year 2000, the Dutch Ministry of Justice argued for a legal quota of foreign sex workers, because the Dutch prostitution market demands a variety of bodies (Dutting, 2001: 16). Also in the year 2000, the Dutch government sought and received a judgment from the European Court recognizing prostitution as an economic activity, thus enabling women from the EU and former Soviet bloc countries to obtain working permits as sex workers in the Dutch sex industry if they can prove that they are self employed. NGOs in the Netherlands have stated that traffickers are taking advantage of this ruling to bring foreign women into the Dutch prostitution industry by masking the fact that women have been trafficked, and by coaching the women how to prove that they are self-employed migrant sex workers.

In the one year since lifting the ban on brothels in the Netherlands, NGOs report that there has been an increase of victims of trafficking or, at best, that the number of victims from other countries has remained the same (Bureau NRM, 2002: 75). Forty-three municipalities in the Netherlands want to follow a no-brothel policy, but the Minister of Justice has indicated that the complete banning of prostitution within any municipality could conflict with the right to free choice of work (Bureau NRM: 2002) as guaranteed in the federal Grondwet or Constitution.

In January, 2002, prostitution in Germany was fully established as a legitimate job after years of being legalized in so-called eros or tolerance zones. Promotion of prostitution, pimping and brothels are now legal in Germany. As early as 1993, after the first steps towards legalization had been taken, it was recognized (even by pro-prostitution advocates) that 75 per cent of the women in Germany's prostitution industry were foreigners from Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and other countries in South America (Altink, 1993: 33). After the fall of the Berlin wall, brothel owners reported that 9 out of every 10 women in the German sex industry were from eastern Europe (Altink, 1993: 43) and other former Soviet countries.

The sheer volume of foreign women who are in the prostitution industry in Germany, by some NGO estimates now up to 85 per cent, casts further doubt on the fact that these numbers of women could have entered Germany without facilitation. As in the Netherlands, NGOs report that most of the foreign women have been trafficked into the country since it is almost impossible for poor women to facilitate their own migration, underwrite the costs of travel and travel documents, and set themselves up in business without outside help.

The link between legalization of prostitution and trafficking in Australia was recognized in the U.S. State Department's 1999 Country Report on Human Rights Practices, released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor. In the country report on Australia, it was noted that in the State of Victoria which legalized prostitution in the 1980s, trafficking in East Asian women for the sex trade is a growing problem in Australia. Lax laws, including legalized prostitution in parts of the country, make [anti-trafficking] enforcement difficult at the working level.

3. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it.

Contrary to claims that legalization and decriminalization would regulate the expansion of the sex industry and bring it under control, the sex industry now accounts for 5 percent of the Netherlands economy (Daley, 2001: 4). Over the last decade, as pimping became legalized and then brothels decriminalized in the Netherlands in 2000, the sex industry expanded 25 percent (Daley, 2001: 4). At any hour of the day, women of all ages and races, dressed in hardly anything, are put on display in the notorious windows of Dutch brothels and sex clubs and offered for sale -- for male consumption. Most of them are women from other countries (Daley, 2001: 4) who have in all likelihood been trafficked into the Netherlands.

There are now officially recognized associations of sex businesses and prostitution customers in the Netherlands that consult and collaborate with the government to further their interests and promote prostitution. These include the Association of Operators of Relaxation Businesses, the Cooperating Consultation of Operators of Window Prostitution, and the Man/Woman and Prostitution Foundation, a group of men who regularly use women in prostitution, and whose specific aims include to make prostitution and the use of services of prostitutes more accepted and openly discussible, and to protect the interests of clients (NRM Bureau, 2002:115-16).

Faced with a dearth of women who want to work in the legal sex sector, the Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking states that in the future, a proposed solution may be to offer [to the market] prostitutes from non EU/EEA countries, who voluntarily choose to work in prostitution. They could be given legal and controlled access to the Dutch market (NRM Bureau, 2002: 140). As prostitution has been transformed into sex work, and pimps into entrepreneurs, so too this potential solution transforms trafficking into voluntary migration for sex work.The Netherlands is looking to the future, targeting poor women of color for the international sex trade to remedy the inadequacies of the free market of sexual services. In the process, it goes further in legitimizing prostitution as an option for the poor.

Legalization of prostitution in the State of Victoria, Australia, has led to massive expansion of the sex industry. Whereas there were 40 legal brothels in Victoria in 1989, in 1999 there were 94, along with 84 escort services. Other forms of sexual exploitation, such as tabletop dancing, bondage and discipline centers, peep shows, phone sex, and pornography have all developed in much more profitable ways than before (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001).

Prostitution has become an accepted sideline of the tourism and casino boom in Victoria with government-sponsored casinos authorizing the redeeming of casino chips and wheel of fortune bonuses at local brothels (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001). The commodification of women has vastly intensified and is much more visible.

Brothels in Switzerland have doubled several years after partial legalization of prostitution. Most of these brothels go untaxed, and many are illegal. In 1999, the Zurich newspaper, Blick, claimed that Switzerland had the highest brothel density of any country in Europe, with residents feeling overrun with prostitution venues, as well as experiencing constant encroachment into areas not zoned for prostitution activities (South China Morning Post: 1999).

4. Legalization/decriminalzaton of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.

Legalization was supposed to get prostituted women off the street. Many women don't want to register and undergo health checks, as required by law in certain countries legalizing prostitution, so legalization often drives them into street prostitution. And many women choose street prostitution because they want to avoid being controlled and exploited by the new sex businessmen.

In the Netherlands, women in prostitution point out that legalization or decriminalization of the sex industry cannot erase the stigma of prostitution but, instead, makes women more vulnerable to abuse because they must register and lose anonymity. Thus, the majority of women in prostitution still choose to operate illegally and underground. Members of Parliament who originally supported the legalization of brothels on the grounds that this would liberate women are now seeing that legalization actually reinforces the oppression of women (Daley, 2001: A1).

The argument that legalization was supposed to take the criminal elements out of sex businesses by strict regulation of the industry has failed. The real growth in prostitution in Australia since legalization took effect has been in the illegal sector. Since the onset of legalization in Victoria, brothels have tripled in number and expanded in size; the vast majority having no licenses but advertising and operating with impunity (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001). In New South Wales, brothels were decriminalized in 1995. In 1999, the numbers of brothels in Sydney had increased exponentially to 400-500. The vast majority have no license to operate. To end endemic police corruption, control of illegal prostitution was taken out of the hands of the police and placed in the hands of local councils and planning regulators. The council has neither the money nor the personnel to put investigators into brothels to flush out and prosecute illegal operators.

5. Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry increases child prostitution.

Another argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that it would help end child prostitution. In reality, however, child prostitution in the Netherlands has increased dramatically during the 1990s. The Amsterdam-based ChildRight organization estimates that the number has gone from 4,000 children in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001. The group estimates that at least 5,000 of the children in prostitution are from other countries, with a large segment being Nigerian girls (Tiggeloven: 2001).

Child prostitution has dramatically risen in Victoria compared to other Australian states where prostitution has not been legalized. Of all the states and territories in Australia, the highest number of reported incidences of child prostitution came from Victoria. In a 1998 study undertaken by ECPAT (End Child Prostitution and Trafficking) who conducted research for the Australian National Inquiry on Child Prostitution, there was increased evidence of organized commercial exploitation of children.

6. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.

The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) has conducted 2 major studies on sex trafficking and prostitution, interviewing almost 200 victims of commercial sexual exploitation. In these studies, women in prostitution indicated that prostitution establishments did little to protect them, regardless of whether they were in legal or illegal establishments. The only time they protect anyone is to protect the customers.

In a CATW 5-country study that interviewed 146 victims of international trafficking and local prostitution, 80% of all women interviewed suffered physical violence from pimps and buyers) and endured similar and multiple health effects from the violence and sexual exploitation (Raymond et al: 2002).

The violence that women were subjected to was an intrinsic part of the prostitution and sexual exploitation. Pimps used violence for many different reasons and purposes. Violence was used to initiate some women into prostitution and to break them down so that they would do the sexual acts. After initiation, at every step of the way, violence was used for sexual gratification of the pimps, as a form of punishment, to threaten and intimidate women, to exert the pimp's dominance, to exact compliance, to punish women for alleged violations, to humiliate women, and to isolate and confine women.

Of the women who did report that sex establishments gave some protection, they qualified it by pointing out that no protector was ever in the room with them, where anything could occur. One woman who was in out-call prostitution stated: The driver functioned as a bodyguard. You're supposed to call when you get in, to ascertain that everything was OK. But they are not standing outside the door while you're in there, so anything could happen.

CATW's studies found that even surveillance cameras in prostitution establishments are used to protect the establishment. Protection of the women from abuse is of secondary or no importance.

7. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.

With the advent of legalization in countries that have decriminalized the sex industry, many men who would not risk buying women for sex now see prostitution as acceptable. When the legal barriers disappear, so too do the social and ethical barriers to treating women as sexual commodities. Legalization of prostitution sends the message to new generations of men and boys that women are sexual commodities and that prostitution is harmless fun.

As men have an excess of sexual services that are offered to them, women must compete to provide services by engaging in anal sex, sex without condoms, bondage and domination and other proclivities demanded by the clients. Once prostitution is legalized, all holds are barred. Women's reproductive capacities are sellable products, for example. A whole new group of clients find pregnancy a sexual turn-on and demand breast milk in their sexual encounters with pregnant women. Specialty brothels are provided for disabled men, and State-employed caretakers who are mostly women must take these men to the brothels if they wish to go (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001).

Advertisements line the highways of Victoria offering women as objects for sexual use and teaching new generations of men and boys to treat women as subordinates. Businessmen are encouraged to hold their corporate meetings in these clubs where owners supply naked women on the table at tea breaks and lunchtime.

A Melbourne brothel owner stated that the client base was well educated professional men, who visit during the day and then go home to their families. Women who desire more egalitarian relationships with men find that often the men in their lives are visiting the brothels and sex clubs. They have the choice to accept that their male partners are buying women in commercial sexual transactions, avoid recognizing what their partners are doing, or leave the relationship (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001).

Sweden's Violence Against Women, Government Bill 1997/98:55 prohibits and penalizes the purchase of sexual services. It is an innovative approach that targets the demand for prostitution. Sweden believes that by prohibiting the purchase of sexual services, prostitution and its damaging effects can be counteracted more effectively than hitherto. Importantly, this law clearly states that: Prostitution is not a desirable social phenomenon and is an obstacle to the ongoing development towards equality between women and men.**

8. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.

A legalized system of prostitution that mandates health checks and certification only for women and not for clients is blatantly discriminatory to women. Women only health checks make no public health sense because monitoring prostituted women does not protect them from HIV/AIDS or STDs, since male clients can and do originally transmit disease to the women.

It is argued that legalized brothels or other controlled prostitution establishments protect women through enforceable condom policies. In one of CATW's studies, U.S. women in prostitution interviewed reported the following: 47% stated that men expected sex without a condom; 73% reported that men offered to pay more for sex without a condom; 45% of women said they were abused if they insisted that men use condoms. Some women said that certain establishments may have rules that men wear condoms but, in reality, men still try to have sex without them. One woman stated: It's regulation to wear a condom at the sauna, but negotiable between parties on the side. Most guys expected blow jobs without a condom (Raymond and Hughes: 2001).

In reality, the enforcement of condom policy was left to the individual women in prostitution, and the offer of extra money was an insistent pressure. One woman stated: ;I'd be one of those liars if I said "Oh I always used a condom." If there was extra money coming in, then the condom would be out the window. I was looking for the extra money. Many factors militate against condom use: the need of women to make money; older women's decline in attractiveness to men; competition from places that do not require condoms; pimp pressure on women to have sex with no condom for more money; money needed for a drug habit or to pay off the pimp; and the general lack of control that prostituted women have over their bodies in prostitution venues.

So called "safety policies" in brothels did not protect women from harm. Even where brothels supposedly monitored the "customers" and utilized "bouncers," women stated that they were injured by buyers and, at times, by brothel owners and their friends. Even when someone intervened to control buyers' abuse, women lived in a climate of fear. Although 60 percent of women reported that buyers had sometimes been prevented from abusing them, half of those women answered that, nonetheless, they thought that they might be killed by one of their "customers (Raymond et al: 2002).

9. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.

Most women in prostitution did not make a rational choice to enter prostitution. They did not sit down one day and decide that they wanted to be prostitutes. Rather, such choicesare better termed survival strategies. Rather than consent, a prostituted woman more accurately complies to the only options available to her. Her compliance is required by the very fact of having to adapt to conditions of inequality that are set by the customer who pays her to do what he wants her to do.

Most of the women interviewed in CATW studies reported that choice in entering the sex industry could only be discussed in the context of the lack of other options. Most emphasized that women in prostitution had few other options. Many spoke about prostitution as the last option, or as an involuntary way of making ends meet. In one study, 67% of the law enforcement officials that CATW interviewed expressed the opinion that women did not enter prostitution voluntarily. 72% of the social service providers that CATW interviewed did not believe that women voluntarily choose to enter the sex industry (Raymond and Hughes: 2001).

The distinction between forced and voluntary prostitution is precisely what the sex industry is promoting because it will give the industry more security and legal stability if these distinctions can be utilized to legalize prostitution, pimping and brothels. Women who bring charges against pimps and perpetrators will bear the burden of proving that they were forced. How will marginalized women ever be able to prove coercion? If prostituted women must prove that force was used in recruitment or in their working conditions, very few women in prostitution will have legal recourse and very few offenders will be prosecuted.

Women in prostitution must continually lie about their lives, their bodies, and their sexual responses. Lying is part of the job definition when the customer asks,did you enjoy it? The very edifice of prostitution is built on the lie that women like it. Some prostitution survivors have stated that it took them years after leaving prostitution to acknowledge that prostitution wasn't a free choice because to deny their own capacity to choose was to deny themselves.

There is no doubt that a small number of women say they choose to be in prostitution, especially in public contexts orchestrated by the sex industry. In the same way, some people choose to take dangerous drugs such as heroin. However, even when some people choose to take dangerous drugs, we still recognize that this kind of drug use is harmful to them, and most people do not seek to legalize heroin. In this situation, it is harm to the person, not the consent of the person that is the governing standard.

Even a 1998 ILO (UN International Labor Organization) report suggesting that the sex industry be treated as a legitimate economic sector, found that prostitution is one of the most alienated forms of labour; the surveys [in 4 countries] show that women worked "with a heavy heart,""felt forced,"or were ";conscience-stricken" and had negative self-identities. A significant proportion claimed they wanted to leave sex work [sic] if they could (Lim, 1998: 213)."

When a woman remains in an abusive relationship with a partner who batters her, or even when she defends his actions, concerned people don't say she is there voluntarily. They recognize the complexity of her compliance. Like battered women, women in prostitution often deny their abuse if provided with no meaningful alternatives.

10. Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.

In a 5-country study on sex trafficking done by the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women and funded by the Ford Foundation, most of the 146 women interviewed strongly stated that prostitution should not be legalized and considered legitimate work, warning that legalization would create more risks and harm for women from already violent customer and pimps (Raymond et al, 2002). "No way. It's not a profession. It is humiliating and violence from the men's side. Not one woman interviewed wanted her children, family or friends to have to earn money by entering the sex industry. One stated: Prostitution stripped me of my life, my health, everything.

CONCLUSION

Legislators leap onto the legalization bandwagon because they think nothing else is successful. However, as Scotland Yard's Commissioner has stated: 'You've got to be careful about legalizing things just because you don't think what you are doing is successful.

We hear very little about the role of the sex industry in creating a global sex market in the bodies of women and children. Instead, we hear much about making prostitution into a better job for women through regulation and/or legalization, through unions of so-called sex workers,and through campaigns which provide condoms to women in prostitution but cannot provide them with alternatives to prostitution. We hear much about how to keep women in prostitution but very little about how to help women get out.

Governments that legalize prostitution as sex work will have a huge economic stake in the sex industry. Consequently, this will foster their increased dependence on the sex sector. If women in prostitution are counted as workers, pimps as businessmen, and buyers as consumers of sexual services, thus legitimating the entire sex industry as an economic sector, then governments can abdicate responsibility for making decent and sustainable employment available to women.

Rather than the State sanctioning prostitution, the State could address the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution, and support the development of alternatives for women in prostitution industries. Instead of governments cashing in on the economic benefits of the sex industry by taxing it, governments could invest in the futures of prostituted women by providing economic resources, from the seizure of sex industry assets, to provide real alternatives for women in prostitution.

[joystickd]

NOt to be mean Kathy but you lost a lot of credibility when you kept talking about reading testimonies

[AHardDaysNight]

NOt to be mean Kathy but you lost a lot of credibility when you kept talking about reading testimonies

 

Huh?

[Queen Zenobia]

Legislators leap onto the legalization bandwagon because they think nothing else is successful. However, as Scotland Yard's Commissioner has stated: 'You've got to be careful about legalizing things just because you don't think what you are doing is successful.

We hear very little about the role of the sex industry in creating a global sex market in the bodies of women and children. Instead, we hear much about making prostitution into a better job for women through regulation and/or legalization, through unions of so-called sex workers,and through campaigns which provide condoms to women in prostitution but cannot provide them with alternatives to prostitution. We hear much about how to keep women in prostitution but very little about how to help women get out.

Governments that legalize prostitution as sex work will have a huge economic stake in the sex industry. Consequently, this will foster their increased dependence on the sex sector. If women in prostitution are counted as workers, pimps as businessmen, and buyers as consumers of sexual services, thus legitimating the entire sex industry as an economic sector, then governments can abdicate responsibility for making decent and sustainable employment available to women.

Rather than the State sanctioning prostitution, the State could address the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution, and support the development of alternatives for women in prostitution industries. Instead of governments cashing in on the economic benefits of the sex industry by taxing it, governments could invest in the futures of prostituted women by providing economic resources, from the seizure of sex industry assets, to provide real alternatives for women in prostitution.

 

Except the government doesn't have responsibility to make decent and sustainable employment for women. Women have that responsibility for ourselves. Sorry, but I really don't welcome mommy and daddy government stepping in to protect people from themselves. Community activists and parents can do a much better job at getting women to voluntarily eschew the sex industry but it's ridiculous to use the coercive power of the state to do so. Make sexual slavery illegal (because slavery is illegal) but banning prostitution is not the answer.

 

If you're so against the legalization of prostitution, should we also make casual sex and premarital sex illegal? It's the same principle.

[somedude81]

Here are some facts about legalized prostitution and the myth that it is safe and secure now. (Sorry that I can only cut and paste excerpts because of computer issues I'm having):

10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution

Janice G. Raymond

Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW)

Obviously an impartial source.

[KathyM]

Wow "read testimonies". Well I guess you're an expert and the literally hundreds of prostitutes I've known were just putting up an act. The countless times I've watched them kissing guys to "seal the deal" were apparently all just in my imagination.

 

Or you still don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm gonna go with option 'B' on that one since I still believe my own eyes over what you read. Here is what *I* have actually observed:

 

• The women I have known in the business didn't have to "go with" (this is the common phrase, BTW) anyone they didn't want to. Of course there is a strong financial incentive but I have seen many many guys turned down. It's seldom about looks, generally it was a matter of being too drunk, an ass, or a simple matter of hygiene. A few girls I know in the biz have very specific requirements for customers, but of course they don't go with as many guys. I assume they earn less but never asked. One for instance would only "go with" young good looking guys under about 30, she was certainly just using the place as a boyfriend hunting ground.
  
• Not a single one (did I mention I know hundreds?) will go for 30 minutes. That's not even time enough to get to a room and undressed, I don't see how it's even possible. Typically they go for the entire evening but sometimes shorter, I've seen them go out in the early afternoon and return later in the evening, for instance. They always have to have a few drinks or otherwise socially interact with the guy to decide if he's OK to go with; it's just common sense. Usually they go for the evening, and they go out bar hopping or shoot pool or whatever for a bit and then when the evening is getting late they accompany the guy home or whatever.
  
• Many of the women end up leaving the work and in relationships with guys they met as customers or socially in the house. This is one reason the turnover rate is high. In fact, I have dated a few myself although I only bought drinks and such, and waited for their work shift to be over. Why pay more than you have to when a little charm and patience will work just as well?
  
• Kissing is common, in fact, I would wager that the only time it doesn't happen is at the customers request. Think about it; building an emotional bond is a great tool for getting return business and, if possible, into an LTR and out of the brothel.
  

So in other words you are a pimp, or work in a brothel or for an escort service. That would cast doubt on anything you say here, since you obviously want to paint a rosy picture about the whole thing. I imagine those full evenings out are pretty costly. Prostitutes charge $100 per hour minimum, sometimes that rate is for the half hour. Oftentimes, it's $200 for the half hour. Pretty expensive stuff. And yes, I know some of the more expensive escort services do offer the "girlfriend experience" *rolls eyes* if the customer requests it, but for the most part, there is no kissing involved unless you pay the extra price for the *girlfriend experience*. A lot of prostitutes will not kiss their customers and do not offer that.

[KathyM]

Like reseearchers do, Kathy likely ran a lit search to see what others in the field have published, then conducted her own in-person interviews.

That's hardly reading "a book."

I've read a lot of articles about the subject from a variety of sources, as well as several testimonies and conducted the one in person interview. This guy may have worked at an escort agency and may know about the agency he worked for, but can only comment on that form, and of course, his opinions are biased based on his background. I have no stake in this, and am just putting forth the facts that I have found through my research on the subject.

[KathyM]

Thanks for that, Kathy.

 

I guess virginity is better than losing it to a prostitute. I certainly don't want to get involved in an industry like that.

You seem like a nice guy. Don't let these losers to corrupt you.

[KathyM]

NOt to be mean Kathy but you lost a lot of credibility when you kept talking about reading testimonies

Reading testimonies was only a part of my research. I've read a lot of published articles about it, and used material from a wide variety of sources for my project.

[KathyM]

Except the government doesn't have responsibility to make decent and sustainable employment for women. Women have that responsibility for ourselves. Sorry, but I really don't welcome mommy and daddy government stepping in to protect people from themselves. Community activists and parents can do a much better job at getting women to voluntarily eschew the sex industry but it's ridiculous to use the coercive power of the state to do so. Make sexual slavery illegal (because slavery is illegal) but banning prostitution is not the answer.

 

If you're so against the legalization of prostitution, should we also make casual sex and premarital sex illegal? It's the same principle.

Well, I'd like to keep it illegal in this country (the U.S.). I only posted this article because it was good at outlining the negatives associated with legalizing prostitution, which I thought was good to dispell some of the opinions flying around on here that legalizing it would make it safe, disease-free, and not exploitative. Premarital sex and casual sex is between willing partners where there is no coertion, no abuse, no exploitation, no degradation, and no persons who are dealing with hundreds of customers and more likely to spread disease. I'd hardly consider that comparable.

[Queen Zenobia]

Well, I'd like to keep it illegal in this country (the U.S.). I only posted this article because it was good at outlining the negatives associated with legalizing prostitution, which I thought was good to dispell some of the opinions flying around on here that legalizing it would make it safe, disease-free, and not exploitative. Premarital sex and casual sex is between willing partners where there is no coertion, no abuse, no exploitation, no degradation, and no persons who are dealing with hundreds of customers and more likely to spread disease. I'd hardly consider that comparable.

 

So, out of principle, you believe that if person A pays person B for sexual intercourse, that act is fundamentally something that the government should arrest one or both parties for? Is it not person B's right to sell sexual services that they own (their own body)? I understand concerns for health and whatnot, but it's really not my nor the government's business what people do with themselves so long as they don't harm other people.

[Metis]

I understand concerns for health and whatnot, but it's really not my nor the government's business what people do with themselves so long as they don't harm other people.

 

Well, wait a minute. I am all for legalizing prostitution, but I'm not sure I accept this overarching rationale. The government quite often tells people what they may or may not do with themselves. You can't sell your organs. You can't marry your father. You can't put alcohol in your body and then get behind the wheel of a car (the purpose of the law is clear, but the point is that it's illegal regardless of whether or not you end up harming other people). I think it's better to take a piecemeal approach to this issue.

[Queen Zenobia]

Well, wait a minute. I am all for legalizing prostitution, but I'm not sure I accept this overarching rationale. The government quite often tells people what they may or may not do with themselves. You can't sell your organs. You can't marry your father. You can't put alcohol in your body and then get behind the wheel of a car (the purpose of the law is clear, but the point is that it's illegal regardless of whether or not you end up harming other people). I think it's better to take a piecemeal approach to this issue.

 

Just because the government frequently tells people what to do doesn't make it right. Drunk driving is a more complicated issue since driving is technically a privilege and not a right. But you should be allowed to sell your organs if you so wish. You should also be allowed to use drugs if you so choose, or work for below minimum wage, etc.

 

The question you should ask yourself is: do you or do you not own yourself?

[Wolf18]

Well, I'd like to keep it illegal in this country (the U.S.). I only posted this article because it was good at outlining the negatives associated with legalizing prostitution, which I thought was good to dispell some of the opinions flying around on here that legalizing it would make it safe, disease-free, and not exploitative. Premarital sex and casual sex is between willing partners where there is no coertion, no abuse, no exploitation, no degradation, and no persons who are dealing with hundreds of customers and more likely to spread disease. I'd hardly consider that comparable.

 

 

So there is no exploitation, degradation , disease, or abuse outside of the John-Hooker realm?

 

It's possible, but not as likely as you'd think (or rather, want people to think) to catch a STD from regulated hookers. A woman who doesn't use condoms loses her license and they get checked frequently for STD's. Can I say the same about the average woman? No. You're way more likely to catch something with a girl who has casual sex for free then from a hooker.

 

In fact, judging from the type of man I see women have casual sex with, sometimes without a condom (especially those who use birth control), I think the chances of getting something from the average woman are far greater than from a regulated, licensed prostitute in Germany or the Netherlands.

 

The higher rate of disease among street walkers can be attributed to lifestyle as much as the fact that they have sex for a living.

 

Stop the hypocrisy. If you're against prostitution because you believe in sexual morals, i can respect that and would agree. But if you want to argue that having casual sex for money is worse than getting wasted, forgetting to use a condom and having a one night stand with some womanizer, then you are not arguing with logic. Just admit that this is about woman privilege and maintaining their sexual dictatorship to get men to do their bidding, rather than for any higher or moral reason.

 

 

The vast majority of women of my generation have had a one night stand with some frat boy or womanizer at some point, if you want to ban prostitution you better support laws banning this activity too. Those are the only logical terms you can work with.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Wolf18

[Mrlonelyone]

Remember, no one who is shunning is aware of either man's 'proclivities', only how he behaves and appears to them.

 

I feel where you were coming from oh wise one, but I think the OP was getting at reactions women have once they are told.

 

i.e. Tell many women you are a virgin after a certain age and they freak out.

 

i.e. Tell many women you have seen hookers at some point ( that stop over in Thailand on leave from Afganistan) they may not like it, but they don't freak either.

 

For that matter look at how our pop culture treats it. Does anyone think less of Joker for wanting to get loved long time?

 

Compare that to a movie about a 40 year old virgin.

 

Clearly allot of older virgin males in USA 2011 feel very judged for their situation with some reason.

[carhill]

So, reading further, and especially the comments of those very much against prostitution, it would appear to be a slam dunk that the man using prostitutes would overwhelmingly be shunned by more women than the virgin.

 

How does internet discussion translate to real life? I await the verdict.

 

I wonder how things worked out for that married Aussie millionaire who bid on the virginity of the young lady? Did his wife shun him for seeking out a virgin prostituting herself to the highest bidder? News at 11; don't wait up.

[Metis]

The question you should ask yourself is: do you or do you not own yourself?

 

Well -- whether or not I own myself, no man is an island all onto itself. We are members of a society, and that membership confers certain benefits. Incidentally, why is driving a privilege whereas selling one's organs should be a right?

[AHardDaysNight]

This just stands by my assertion that you should never be honest about your sexual experience.

 

Lie your ass off, because no woman is going to appreciate honesty!

[Floridaman]

This just stands by my assertion that you should never be honest about your sexual experience.

 

Lie your ass off, because no woman is going to appreciate honesty!

I Saw Her Standing There,

Don't lie, but don't be so forthcoming about it.

 

If someone you date asks about your experience early on, just say you'd rather not talk about it until we're closer.

That kind of information shouldn't really come up early anyway.

 

Think how she'd react if you peppered her with questions about her sexual past.

 

When you get emotionally closer to a woman, say after a couple of months of dating, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable explaining about your past in small detail. My future wife and I didn't discuss our pasts until our first sexual encounter, and that was @ 4 mos.

 

You did nothing wrong and actually lived responsibly.

Just say you had your reasons, were waiting for the right one, wanted to make it special for her, etc.

 

The reason I say wait on that is bec. as she may be falling in love with you, it may be harder for a woman to come down hard on you for that.

 

Personally, I don't think you'd want to date a woman that would think less of your life choices.

Just as someone who had a lot of sex outside of marriage might not want to be with a partner who condemned the other for having that past....

[123321]

Except the government doesn't have responsibility to make decent and sustainable employment for women. Women have that responsibility for ourselves.

 

Just swap in 'people" for "women" and I'm on board.

 

 

 

If you're so against the legalization of prostitution, should we also make casual sex and premarital sex illegal? It's the same principle.

 

Agreed, I wouldn't promote hooking as a career choice, in fact i would discourage it but I'd never contemplate using force to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body, and I wouldn't say it's OK to kill someone, but only if you do it for free. Such thinking is broken.

 

 

 

Obviously an impartial source.

 

That.

 

Also we really need to stop conflating different things. Kidnapping and so on are vile things, in fact they are a form of using force to tell someone what they can and cannot do, something I've been arguing against for this entire thread.

 

 

 

So in other words you are a pimp, or work in a brothel or for an escort service.

 

No, :LOL: I'm just a guy who had some free time and went out to a few of those places for a while in my life. What I painted looks rosy to you? Well great, I was waiting for you to say so and make my point, because that's what prostitution looks like in a place where it's legal or defacto legal.

 

 

 

The question you should ask yourself is: do you or do you not own yourself?

 

Concise. i like it.

 

 

 

The higher rate of disease among street walkers can be attributed to lifestyle as much as the fact that they have sex for a living.

 

That is a fact, and no one has said that blatant public solicitation should be made legal anyway, that's a different discussion with a lot more nuances in my opinion.

 

 

 

Stop the hypocrisy. If you're against prostitution because you believe in sexual morals, i can respect that and would agree. But if you want to argue that having casual sex for money is worse than getting wasted, forgetting to use a condom and having a one night stand with some womanizer, then you are not arguing with logic. Just admit that this is about woman privilege and maintaining their sexual dictatorship to get men to do their bidding, rather than for any higher or moral reason.

 

Bears repeating.