123321 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Not everything is meant to be profited from. Who are you to decide that for others? Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 First, it opens women to be exploited BECAUSE it's illegal. If their work is legal they can then avail themselves of all the legal remedies available to other lines of work. Where it is illegal, they are second class citizens and cannot avail themselves of full legal protections like everyone else. Second, people are having SEX! Oh my word! Nothing you went on a diatribe about is unique to prostitution as opposed to the other rampant forms of promiscuity so unless you want to make sex outside marriage illegal your arguments are null and void. Finally, given the above, there is NO REASON it should be illegal to sell something it's legal to give away. People who are against prostitution are either really against extra-marital sex, are women who dislike the competition, or are bandwagoning with the opinion that will buy them the most pats on the head. Women are exploited, abused and degraded in prostitution in countries where it is legal as well. Do some research on the topic if you don't believe me. I'm not looking for pats on the head. I did the research for a project in a psychology class where the topic was sexual addiction. And the "competition" does not concern me. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) Who are you to decide that for others? I think your question is misdirected --- Who is ANYONE to decide what is legal and what isn't? I think I want to be under / in a rule where murder, rape, and serfdom are still lively, familiar and well :love: But. When I "create/make" something, I have a right to decide whether or not others are allowed to profit from it --- at least where I am from, it's called patent/copyright. If I want it to be FREE for others... it is well within my "right" to ensure others are not allowed to make profit from it either. But alas... this goes much much deeper... doesn't it... The concept of "meaning" may be lost upon you................... a pang of sorrow for your being comes from mineee.... Even still. It's for your own good when it's "protected". And it's for my own good when it's "profaned". Maybe cliche, but gosh... Edited October 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall Link to post Share on other sites
Cracker Jack Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 No, it's not wrong. Many people who are not especially religious go there to socialize with others and connect with others. You will find people there in all stages of their spiritual growth, and even people who have no spiritual beliefs but were prompted to go by someone they know. Go ahead and try it. Stick with it for awhile. Maybe try a few different places and see which places you feel most comfortable with. You could meet good friends, both male and female, as well as potential women to date, and you may even be inspired by the Word of God while you're there. Try it. Lots of people I know who didn't start out religious started going to such groups and met a lot of good friends there as well as people they later started to date. As far as other good places to meet single women, what has been successful for people I know is certain dating websites, like EHarmony and Plenty Of Fish. Also meet up groups for singles that focus on various activities. There are a lot of them. Lots of fun activities involved. Just google meet up groups and that will probably bring up some possibilities. Of course, taking classes, getting involved in volunteer opportunities, developing your own hobbies where you could join groups and clubs that would share those hobbies are good possibilities. I think Floridaman had some good suggestions earlier on this thread. Thanks for replying. I always assumed those who weren't very religious would annoy the others there. To be honest, I never even thought about religious events as a possibility to meet new people, so I'm glad you (and Floridaman) elaborated on it. It's worth a try. Link to post Share on other sites
123321 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 When I "create/make" something, I have a right to decide whether or not others are allowed to profit from it --- at least where I am from, it's called patent/copyright. If I want it to be FREE for others... it is well within my "right" to ensure others are not allowed to make profit from it either. Actually, no, as a person who has actually filed many patents and had some granted, a patent and a copyright are vastly different things, and neither one is what you described. The concept of "meaning" may be lost upon you................... a pang of sorrow for your being comes from mineee.... Even still. It's for your own good when it's "protected". And it's for my own good when it's "profaned". Maybe cliche, but gosh... Maybe a load of horseshit, more like. All it is is the last gasp of the Puritan Morality Police clinging to the last few straws of control over other peoples sexual lives. Not a nice look, I must say, but whatever. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) Actually, no, as a person who has actually filed many patents and had some granted, a patent and a copyright are vastly different things, and neither one is what you described. Wtf are you talking about? and I never suggested they were the same things --- that's what the slash is there for (and or). People can infringe upon them (just like they can break other laws ), but, they can also be held accountable for such --- they need "permission" if someone has claimed exclusivity, and that can be asserted over even "freeware" (among else). Edited October 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall Link to post Share on other sites
123321 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Wtf are you talking about? and I never suggested they were the same things --- that's what the slash is there for (and or). Neither of them are germane to the issue; they are both cases of specialize rights being assigned creators for a limited time to ensure the public at large can continue to enjoy the benefits. Copyright law has concepts like "fair use" that just don't apply to this discussion. The question was simply how is it OK for a girl to ask a guy to buy her some drinks and then have sex with him but not OK for her to ask him for $200 for the same thing? Link to post Share on other sites
Queen Zenobia Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Neither of them are germane to the issue; they are both cases of specialize rights being assigned creators for a limited time to ensure the public at large can continue to enjoy the benefits. Copyright law has concepts like "fair use" that just don't apply to this discussion. Basically a government granted monopoly. The question was simply how is it OK for a girl to ask a guy to buy her some drinks and then have sex with him but not OK for her to ask him for $200 for the same thing? Yup, essentially the same thing. Besides, a woman (or I suppose a man) should have the right to sell her own body for sexual services and people should have the right to buy said services. Who are we to say they can't? Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Actually, if a woman did say, "I'll have sex with you if you buy me a drink" that is prostitution. Prostitution is exchanging sex for money, goods or services. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) Neither of them are germane to the issue; they are both cases of specialize rights being assigned creators for a limited time to ensure the public at large can continue to enjoy the benefits. Copyright law has concepts like "fair use" that just don't apply to this discussion. The question was simply how is it OK for a girl to ask a guy to buy her some drinks and then have sex with him but not OK for her to ask him for $200 for the same thing? Sure, but I stated *everything* I don't think EITHER of your examples are "okay", but I don't even know where to begin with explaining the differences to you... it's not going to be articulate. Bear with me or not. In your first example, a person is not depending upon the act to "survive" or even to just "benefit" their resources (which normally motivate people to do things they don't want to do etc). The person could still be emotionally/mentally unwell, without self-esteem (like several prostitutes and hookers) etc, and not even be genuinely interested in sharing mutual sexual pleasure........ it's ultimately their choice and responsibility. In your second example, the most I can relate the two is if a female does this UNcommonly and with someone she knows (to at least some extent). It is still unsound to me, but surely many "common" scenarios through people are the same thing under a different guise. A big difference comes in when it's a profession nonetheless ----------- when people MECHANICALLY do this with multiple people. Multiple strangers. And allow their body to be excessively "abused" and exposed to repeated hollow or twisted acts --- not just exposed, but by PARTICIPATING in them, and for what and why exactly?! Because they cannot COME up with some other way to live...? I think it goes beyond that even........ What do you think those experiences accumulate into, and what do you think it takes for the person to allow them to? IF they're even allowed the choice fully --- EVEN in regulated brothels and prostitution industries (Such as in the Netherlands), there are men and women and CHILDREN who've been forced / feel pressured... and if they're *raped*, do you think they're taken seriously when they come forward with that? A prostitute getting raped and speaking out against it is often accused of lying or just trying to swindle more money. EVEN if they were genuinely raped --- people just think, "what's the big deal?" --- as if they ONLY care about the money and they don't have any feelings anyway, right? Their "freewill" is NOT respected....... And then there are men and women and who are so messed up that they are pretty much dead and or dark inside, but continue using their vessels for "profit" --- or rather, profit for the "pimps" --- because, some set-ups really do rip off the "sex laborers". I don't think sex was intended to be a "profession", I don't think "human trafficking" is RIGHT... regardless, it HAS been around for a long time, but that doesn't mean it's right!....... a LOT of things have gone on for a long time.............. like slavery, and plenty of "nobles/those who've ascended in power" have long felt entitled to them. And entitled to living off of people's labor etc. Who knows exactly where someone's sense of right and wrong comes from but............. It's obvious people have differing ones. People also don't know what's best for them or others... Edited October 21, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks for replying. I always assumed those who weren't very religious would annoy the others there. To be honest, I never even thought about religious events as a possibility to meet new people, so I'm glad you (and Floridaman) elaborated on it. It's worth a try. Worth a try, for sure. It will give you the opportunity to meet new friends and explore your spirituality at the same time. It may take trying a few different places or religious groups to determine which you would feel most comfortable with, but keep with it. There's a good chance it will have good results for you. Just don't get disappointed if there are some people there who have some negative things about them. Some might. You'll find all types there. Church or religious groups is not a country club for saints. It's a hospital for sinners who are human, many of whom are struggling with various issues and are there to seek guidance and meaning in their lives. Some are there for the social aspects of it. You'll find all types. But there will be some quality people there and potential for some good friendships. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yup, essentially the same thing. Besides, a woman (or I suppose a man) should have the right to sell her own body for sexual services and people should have the right to buy said services. Who are we to say they can't? Yes, because it's so easy to make prostitution "safe" Especially when the ones (including those behind the scenes) running such industries are so full of honesty, integrity and compassion towards others... lol. Link to post Share on other sites
Queen Zenobia Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yes, because it's so easy to make prostitution "safe" Especially when the ones (including those behind the scenes) running such industries are so full of honesty, integrity and compassion towards others... lol. I would say the trend nowadays for prostitutes is self employment. You set your own wages and keep 100% of the profits. No middle man and you're your own boss. And as for making it safe, well that's just a risk people should be allowed to take. I don't think mommy and daddy government need to protect people from themselves (that's the road to serfdom). Prostitution would never be a line of work I would pursue nor would I ever encourage anyone else to pursue it. But, a person has a right to do with their own body what they want without someone else telling them not to. Link to post Share on other sites
Nexus One Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yes, because it's so easy to make prostitution "safe" Especially when the ones (including those behind the scenes) running such industries are so full of honesty, integrity and compassion towards others... lol. In The Netherlands and Germany prostitution is legalized. Which means the people who run things need to register as a company and pay taxes. You know what that did to criminals who used to run the show there? They got outcompeted by the regular population on price, quality and availability. The same happened with drugs in The Netherlands. Once businesses were allowed to develop, grow and sell the stuff the criminals got outcompeted by pretty much every metric. The governments there also regulate things there. Women get medical check ups and they get visits from government officials to check on them and ask them if they're being pressured by anyone to do that work. For example, prostitution in Amsterdam is very public. In the Red Light District you can literally go window shopping for women. What do you think will happen once they make prostitution and drugs unlawful again there? Bingo. It will once again be pushed into the influence of criminal organisations who then will keep things out of the hands of government and out of the public eye. They will once again raise prices to compensate for the wars they have to wage against police to keep their "business" alive. Prostitution has always been there, whether legal or not and it will always be there. You can either legalize it and control it that way or you can make it unlawful and push it into the hands of criminals. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I would say the trend nowadays for prostitutes is self employment. You set your own wages and keep 100% of the profits. No middle man and you're your own boss. The problem with that is that prostitutes can be even more easily taken advantage of --- and prostitutes that do try to go without the middle man will run into people who would be less deterred to rape them and or harm them and or kill them. A big reason there is a middle man is for the perceived "protection" (although, in reality, they can be the biggest threat). It's really just a gamble one way or the other. And that's fine if you want to live and let live, but the world will unfold around you REGARDLESS... and in the end, it can decide whether or not *you* get to choose how to live... I would be astonished if everyone on the world followed the live and let live philosophy. Too many people seek wealth, status and power. And too many people need help in defining boundaries etc....... the really crazy people will aspire as high as they can, some even seem to thoroughly revel in the natural morbidity and grimness that follows. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 In The Netherlands and Germany prostitution is legalized. Which means the people who run things need to register as a company and pay taxes. You know what that did to criminals who used to run the show there? They got outcompeted by the regular population on price, quality and availability. The same happened with drugs in The Netherlands. Once businesses were allowed to develop, grow and sell the stuff the criminals got outcompeted by pretty much every metric. The governments there also regulate things there. Women get medical check ups and they get visits from government officials to check on them and ask them if they're being pressured by anyone to do that work. For example, prostitution in Amsterdam is very public. In the Red Light District you can literally go window shopping for women. What do you think will happen once they make prostitution and drugs unlawful again there? Bingo. It will once again be pushed into the influence of criminal organisations who then will keep things out of the hands of government and out of the public eye. They will once again raise prices to compensate for the wars they have to wage against police to keep their "business" alive. Prostitution has always been there, whether legal or not and it will always be there. You can either legalize it and control it that way or you can make it unlawful and push it into the hands of criminals. Have you been to the Netherlands, Nexus? Have you been inside of the brothels there? Have you seen what the "taxes" are used for? Do you know that it's "controlled"? No system is ever fully "controlled"... even when it's regulated. I do agree that the sexual diseases are regulated fairly well --- I already mentioned that in another thread... but that is ONE aspect. Where are you getting your other "facts" from, if I might ask............. By the way, the "lesser" criminals were getting out competed. The more intelligent ones were behind the "legal competition" that surpassed them. They just "ceased" being "criminals" by the superficial definition of the word. Link to post Share on other sites
Queen Zenobia Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The problem with that is that prostitutes can be even more easily taken advantage of --- and prostitutes that do try to go without the middle man will run into people who will rape them and or harm them and or kill them. A big reason there is a middle man is for the perceived "protection" (although, in reality, they can be the biggest threat). It's really just a gamble one way or the other. And that's fine if you want to live and let live, but the world will unfold around you REGARDLESS... and in the end, it can decide whether or not *you* get to choose how to live... I would be astonished if everyone on the world followed the live and let live philosophy. Too many people seek wealth, status and power. And too many people need help in defining boundaries etc....... the really crazy people will aspire as high as they can, some even seem to thoroughly revel in the natural morbidity and grimness that follows. Perhaps if you believe in the theory of the Hobbsian jungle, where humans are by their very nature hostile to the idea of law and order, I guess you could feel that way. I don't so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And I think you confuse the philosophy of "live and let live" with the idea of individual isolationism. I don't think people should be an island unto themselves, people should work together and cooperate for mutual benefit (people frequently do). However, I don't like the idea of the government (any government) having the power to say what someone should or should not be allowed to do with their own body. Governments are by their very nature corrupt, and fundamentally against individual liberty. Limiting its power can only be a good thing. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Perhaps if you believe in the theory of the Hobbsian jungle, where humans are by their very nature hostile to the idea of law and order, I guess you could feel that way. I don't so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And I think you confuse the philosophy of "live and let live" with the idea of individual isolationism. I don't think people should be an island unto themselves, people should work together and cooperate for mutual benefit (people frequently do). However, I don't like the idea of the government (any government) having the power to say what someone should or should not be allowed to do with their own body. Governments are by their very nature corrupt, and fundamentally against individual liberty. Limiting its power can only be a good thing. I don't agree with much in regards to the government. I tend to agree there's a lot of corruption. But such will result when people with "power" fuse together... intended or otherwise. However, I think you're putting too much faith in the "good will" of humanity (also, I meant nothing by way of individual isolationism heh). Education is crucial............ but experience will convey much more to you. Vicariously living through the hardships of others is not a substitute for being subjected to your own........... Nonetheless, I would say the faith you have in "humanity" is a nice innocence... but most people in the world are not pampered and well-educated. And they lack the drive, the "nature", the desire, to want to work together in some fluffy harmony. Selfishness is paramount. Just look at how people destroy the world's resources in order to appease their "present"........ What do you propose, though, then? What would you call an established "order"? Because people, when left to their own devices, create chaos Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 What do you think will happen once they make prostitution and drugs unlawful again there? Bingo. It will once again be pushed into the influence of criminal organisations who then will keep things out of the hands of government and out of the public eye. They will once again raise prices to compensate for the wars they have to wage against police to keep their "business" alive. Prostitution has always been there, whether legal or not and it will always be there. You can either legalize it and control it that way or you can make it unlawful and push it into the hands of criminals. Also, I think it's ironic you are comparing HUMAN beings being regulated to drugs being regulated... lol. Things go out of the "public eye" anyway... MUCH like they do in "our" regulated and legal systems. Best place to hide things are out in the open anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Nexus One Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Have you been to the Netherlands, Nexus? Yes. Have you been inside of the brothels there? Have you seen what the "taxes" are used for? I didn't go inside myself, never had sex with a prostitute and never plan to either. But I know people who did. In Amsterdam it was literally window shopping, you walk by the windows and choose a woman, then you go inside and have sex with that woman after which you check out and pay. In Germany it was a little bit different, they rebuilt a large factory there into a brothel. I didn't go inside myself, but from what I heard they lined up 300 women from 18 to 65 of every type, shape and race for "the customers" and men walked by to pick a woman after which they retreated to a private room to have sex. It was also possible to do it in public, like in a bar area or in a pool. Prostitutes tend to come out of the brothels and police talked to them as they patrol the Red Light District. I also know they get visits from government officials. Do you know that it's "controlled"? No system is ever fully "controlled"... even when it's regulated. True, but you can either legalize it and keep it out of the hands or the real hardcore criminal organisations or you can make it unlawful and completely lose control over it. Where are you getting your other "facts" from, if I might ask............. Which "other facts" do you mean exactly? Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I believe that prostitution should be legalized. Prostitutes should have a business license and have to pay taxes. Then they would get assess to medical checkups. They'd also have the nice benefit of being able to go to the police if something goes wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
Queen Zenobia Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 What do you propose, though, then? What would you call an established "order"? Because people, when left to their own devices, create chaos Well I'm not an anarchist, I'm not advocating for the abolition of the government (perhaps someday, when you and I are long gone that might happen). The only purpose of a just and legitimate government is to protect life, liberty and property. Is someone violates someone else's rights to those things that's when the government has to intervene to apply justice and/or recuperation of those losses. Certainly there are other things that people have entrusted the government with servicing (like roads and schools) which may or may not be a good idea depending on who you ask, and certainly there are some issues that are incredibly complicated and don't fit into neat little boxes. So on that I suppose I could agree with you. But I'd prefer to keep this discussion limited to the actual issue at hand (prostitution) since there is a political section of LS where one could properly expound upon the intricacies of libertarian philosophy. On prostitution though, do you honestly think that anti-Prostitution laws actually help keep people from being prostitutes? Do you think that if Prostitution were to become legal today, that there would be a dramatic increase in the number of abused or assaulted prostitutes? Would there be a huge uptick in the amount of men who use prostitutes? I don't. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yes. I didn't go inside myself, never had sex with a prostitute and never plan to either. But I know people who did. In Amsterdam it was literally window shopping, you walk by the windows and choose a woman, then you go inside and have sex with that woman after which you check out and pay. In Germany it was a little bit different, they rebuilt a large factory there into a brothel. I didn't go inside myself, but from what I heard they lined up 300 women from 18 to 65 of every type, shape and race for "the customers" and men walked by to pick a woman after which they retreated to a private room to have sex. It was also possible to do it in public, like in a bar area or in a pool. Prostitutes tend to come out of the brothels and police talked to them as they patrol the Red Light District. I also DO know they get visits from government officials. True, but you can either legalize it and keep it out of the hands or the real hardcore criminal organisations or you can make it unlawful and completely lose control over it. Which "other facts" do you mean exactly? Ah, well I admit I'm impressed you've at least been there If their police and security is anything like America's, I've little faith in it though... The facts I mean are: --- that people are not being abused and or harmed and or forced into things against their will and or silenced and or feared. That they're getting their "rightful" profits (and that pimps are not siphoning them and doing harmful things to them etc) ------------ some do NOT care to recruit children etc, they do NOT typically see their "products" as "people". Unfortunately prostitution isn't the only form of human trafficking, nor the only profession wherein others reap of the "rewards" of the "laborers"... or hurt them etc. It's just messed up all across the board... I could bitch about a myriad of "structures", but what good does it do. People will find ways to feel better about the way things are because they feel helpless to change them --- that, or they just aren't willing to risk what it takes to even attempt to plant the seed to. Link to post Share on other sites
Nexus One Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Also, I think it's ironic you are comparing HUMAN beings being regulated to drugs being regulated... lol. No I'm comparing government regulation of drugs to government regulation of prostitution. I in no way want to dehumanize those women. If there's any injustice and exploitation involved rather than those women choosing to do it themselves, then that very much upsets me. Link to post Share on other sites
OnyxSnowfall Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 "(and that pimps are not siphoning them and doing harmful things to the "employees" etc) ------------ some do NOT care to not recruit children etc"*** also, isn't it dehumanizing to behave like a mannequin... waiting to be "used" and then put back for some more? Link to post Share on other sites
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