Your view on male virginity vs male use of prostitution

[KathyM]

The US is far from perfect, but we are sure a heck of a lot better than those who devalue and oppress women and children. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going for lunch.

[Wolf18]

Kathy has probably never been to New Yawk Shi-tty, where everywhere you go you see people laying in the street like they're garbage, and the homeless epidemic is getting worse by the minute. They're not all drug addicts who deserve it either, I've gotten to know quite a few.

 

Dare I say, America, out of all the nations I've been to, doesn't value people at all, instead everyone is valued based on how much money they can spend. Well unless you're a homosexual or some other attention grabber, then you get the stage all to yourself In the richest nation of the world, some dirt bag who manipulates capital and doesn't do any real work is eating caviar , while children in Appalachia starve and live in squalor.

 

In America prostitution is OK just as long as it's a high class escort and only really rich guys can afford it. What would make the sky fall would be if working class guys had access to sex on demand, ewww gross who do these plebians think they are.

[Floridaman]

So you don't watch pornography, and you don't have a girlfriend? So what do you do, meditate like a monk until your urges go away?

I'm not single.

No I'm trying to see what agenda you're pushing. I see it's not the feminazi one , since you oppose the murder of children.

At least you and I agree on believing abortion to be wrong though, like prostitution, pornography and all manner of other wrongs, we can't control what others do.

The reason is that they believe everything that benefits men and makes women insecure should be banned.

 

Men should be at the sole whim of women if they want their sexual needs met, so what if disabled, older virgins, ugly, or any other myriad of guys women cast out as untouchables have needs to, right?

Pretty selfish if you ask me.

I bet most women would support men dying without ever having sex even once before legalizing and regulating prostitution.

 

Know you were referencing Kathy there and in the earlier post I quoted above, and I can't comment on the feminazi angle or women's motives.

Clearly, you've been hurt by some women.

 

Yes, I know where that phrase originates and agree on some of it.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Floridaman

[Metis]

Well, this "feminazi" is in favor of legalizing prostitution. Nor do I see any problem with porn; to the extent that certain subgenres of porn are degrading to women, they are a reflection of certain societal attitudes, not the cause.

 

That said, I am always dismayed to see sex itself conflated with degradation as far as women are concerned. Being attractive or enhancing one's attractiveness isn't "self-objectification" or "self-commodification", just like looking at someone with lust isn't objectification; objectification and commodification involve the denial of a woman's personhood, lack of regard for her desires or pleasure, treating her as something that exists solely for someone, and basically just viewing her nothing other than a life support system for genitals. It is telling, indeed, that a number of men still cling to the idea that sex in and of itself is degrading for women; and that for a woman to be merely desired by a man is tantamount to complete dehumanization. The underlying reason there is the belief that sex, in all its expressions, is something that only men enjoy, desire and even have a moral right to; while at the same time something that only women provide, perform or "give up".

 

As to the subject of women supposedly dressing sluttily -- I really wish some of you gentlemen would educate me on this one. Stop saying what outfits you consider slutty. Instead, please give us some specifics on what women should be wearing in order to escape the shaming label, not send the message that we want to be "commodified", and at the same time, not send the equally harming message that we are slovenly "dykes". Please be specific. Is it okay to wear pants? If so, should these pants be loose and wide, or is it okay to have slim pant legs? Are jeans "sluttier" than dress pants? Is it acceptable to expose the ankle? What should a decent, self-respecting woman do about large breasts? Are they to be addressed with buttoned-up tops, binding or surgery? Are v-necks that don't show cleavage okay, or is the shape of the neck too suggestive? Please give me examples of outfits that aren't specifically designed to make a woman look unattractive, but don't send the message that she "wants to be commodified". Seems to me, the problem here isn't so much what women do or don't do, but how certain men see women in general.

[Wolf18]

I don't have a GF.

Am married. Have been for years.[/Quote]

 

 

So because you've climbed the mountain you're going to forget about your brothers? If I had a girl or wife I wouldn't watch porn or go to prostitutes either. In fact, I haven't watched porn for a while since I find it has a negative affect on me, and hookers well I don't have the money to afford anything resembling a human

 

I've had a couple of encounters with prostitutes in other countries and can say they were very positive experiences and a huge public service to the men in these nations, and no I'm not some degenerate sex fiend, I wouldn't go to those places if I had a woman waiting for me at home. Just a normal guy who thinks having a plan B after a night out of trying to pull some tail is a huge relief. Are there married men who use these services? Sure, but they're going to cheat on your anyway, whether prostitution is legal or not, it's a character flaw.

 

At least you and I agree on believing abortion to be wrong though, like prostitution, pornography and all manner of other wrongs, we can't control what others do.[/Quote]

 

I would support banning all of those things. But my issue is, it's all or nothing, not only banning things that are positive or good for men like we have in the USA.

 

My ideal society would be a monogamist one, where there is 1 woman for every 1 man, like in the 1950's. Back then, virtually every decent guy had a guarantee of a good wife. But there's no chance women would support such a society today.

 

Know you were referencing Kathy there, and I can't comment on the feminazi angle or women's motives. Clearly, you've been hurt by some women.

Yes, I know where that phrase originates and agree on some of it. [/Quote]

 

 

Hurt by who? We've all been burned by women at some point , so my experience is no more unique than perhaps yours. My opinions have nothing to do with women "Hurting" me, and everything to do with hypocrisy and the matriarchal dictatorship in America that is intruding on my right to pursue happiness.

[Mrlonelyone]

The idea that porn and prostitution are bad goes back to the bible, and the puritanical nature of the founders of the USA (of all colors in Massachusets bay, and the Chesapeake/Virginia).

 

The problem is what do all the single, undatable men do to relieve their sexual tensions and pressures of the day?

 

Porn is bad.

Prostituion is bad.

Male homosexuality (even situationally) is bad.

Masturbation is bad (just ask Pee Wee Herman).

 

What should an involuntarily celibate male do?

 

You didn't answer my question about men who will never have sex in their life without paying for it.

 

And no, there is no such thing as a half-way Christian. If you believe in a religion, you follow the rules. Having premarital sex is not the same as telling a fib or some other minor sin, you can't pick and choose the aspects of theology you want. If you are going to be religious, you better be a zealot, if not it's pointless.

 

Practicing one type of sexual immorality and then speaking against sexual immorality is indeed hypocrisy. Kind of like an alcoholic arguing to keep cocaine illegal because of how addictive or life ruining potential it has.

 

Wolf, after reading this I must say I like you. If your open to new experiences and happen to be in Chicago call me and we can hang out. J/K

[joystickd]

One of the good things about this country is that we value people.

 

As you can see in the media this country doesn't really value the average working class citizen. Government are the biggest criminals let really look at it

1. Numbers racket it eventually becomes the lottery

2. Prohibition on alcohol. Due to the amount of money in organized crime government legalizes it.

 

Its only in the modern era that prostitution was looked down on. Even certain terms derive from prostitution. Lesbian originally was a woman from the island of Lesbos mainly prostitute widely regarded for her skill in fellatio. The ancient Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, the sky god sent Enkidu to rid Gilgamesh of his arrogance. Enkidu was wild until he spent six days and seven nights and was "civilized" by Shamhat. Shamhat more than likely a prostitute. In my opinion the only reason prostitution is looked down upon is because it no longer was just a thing for the elite and also other people used this vice to be able to move upward in social class.

 

I agree there are some bad things about it, but not everyone in it is exploited. There are willing participants in this. A pimp is not exploiting someone when he says I'm a pimp and you get out on the track break a trick and give me all the money and she agrees. Its like women looking for a contract marriage with a military man for benefits. They are both willing participants.

[ascendotum]

The US is far from perfect, but we are sure a heck of a lot better than those who devalue and oppress women and children. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going for lunch.

Do you think countries like Germany, Australia, UK, Finland, Japan, Canada, Poland, Switzerland and Argentina for instance that their societies have all gone into moral decay? That the men there treat their women worse compared to the US or that these countries have higher levels of family breakdown or deviant behaviour by men because of their liberalised laws on prostitution?

[Floridaman]

So because you've climbed the mountain you're going to forget about your brothers?

I escaped singleness in my early 30s.

Anyone who reads my posts sees I haven't "forgotten" about single, older virgin or inexperienced men who feel desperate for love and physical affection.

Was once like them and know where they're coming from.

I try to give them tips on meeting women and forming relationships.

 

Like this thread I created.

_For those who can't get dates in their late 20s, 30s and 40s http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t269779/

 

If I had a girl or wife I wouldn't watch porn or go to prostitutes either.

In fact, I haven't watched porn for a while since I find it has a negative affect on me, and hookers well I don't have the money to afford anything resembling a human

Good that you're not using porn and I totally understand where you're coming from.

As a former porn user, I know why men view pornography.

I used it to excess -- and became addicted -- to cope with a witholding wife, though abusing porn didn't help me any. So no throwing stones there.

 

It's not up to me to tell someone what to do or not do in terms of dating, sex or prostitution or any number of other things.

Personally feel visiting a prostitute to lose one's virgniity is a horrible idea.

Will argue my case as best I can, however.

 

Hurt by who? We've all been burned by women at some point , so my experience is no more unique than perhaps yours. My opinions have nothing to do with women "Hurting" me, and everything to do with hypocrisy and the matriarchal dictatorship in America that is intruding on my right to pursue happiness.

Your post about "feminazis" wanting to control men and when they had sex... that sounds like some women have burned or hurt you.

Again, I know where you're coming from on that one.

 

On Christians having premarital sex, I get what you're sayin' too.

On the grounds that it may incriminate me, I decline to address that point.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Floridaman

[AHardDaysNight]

Wolf, your posts come out of bitterness, but I do agree with you on some aspects.

 

Personally, I don't think porn is harmful in small doses. But ask Pete Townshend what harm iPods can do, and he'll likely talk your ear off.

[Wolf18]

The idea that porn and prostitution are bad goes back to the bible, and the puritanical nature of the founders of the USA (of all colors in Massachusets bay, and the Chesapeake/Virginia). [/Quote]

 

Puritanism is partially to blame for America's incredibly stupid and hypocritical laws.

 

The problem is what do all the single, undatable men do to relieve their sexual tensions and pressures of the day?

 

Porn is bad.

Prostituion is bad.

Male homosexuality (even situationally) is bad.

Masturbation is bad (just ask Pee Wee Herman).

 

What should an involuntarily celibate male do? [/Quote]

 

Nothing, they are invisible to women so they don't count.

 

If a guy is disabled or has any other issue that would turn women off, well that's Darwin, say women. Trying to get women to empathize with men are at the low on the ladder is safe to say an impossible task, women despise them.

 

Wolf, after reading this I must say I like you. If your open to new experiences and happen to be in Chicago call me and we can hang out. J/K [/Quote]

 

It's only gay if you kiss the guy.

 

I escaped singleness in my early 30s.

Anyone who reads my posts sees I haven't "forgotten" about single, older virgin or inexperienced men who feel desperate for love and physical affection.

Was once like them and know where they're coming from.

I try to give them tips on meeting women and forming relationships.

 

[/Quote]

 

A lot of times it's futile dude.

 

Good that you're not using porn and I totally understand where you're coming from.

As a former porn user, I know why men view pornography.

I used it excess to cope with a witholding wife, though abusing porn didn't help me any. So no throwing stones there. [/Quote]

 

 

Maybe you ought to put a little bit of blame on the frigid wife as well. Maybe if women weren't as picky as they are or use sex as a weapon, prostitution and porn would become obsolete.

 

It's not up to me to tell someone what to do or not do in terms of dating, sex or prostitution or any number of other things.

Personally feel visiting a prostitute to lose one's virgniity is a horrible idea.

Will argue my case as best I can, however.

 

[/Quote]

 

That's up to the individual. I lost my virgo to a hooker when I was 15, and never regretted it once. In some cultures this is the norm, and the men are just fine. I had no problem getting with girls in High school , I was popular and had a weight lifter body either. After I lost weight (muscle) due to having to lack of leisure time (work and college) is when I became invisible to women.

 

Being in your 20's and not even knowing what a vagina feels like, contrary to what women will tell you, is pretty sad, pathetic, and completely unnatural from a biological point of view. All the guys here who talk about how high and mighty they are because they refuse to lose it to a hooker think this is going to win them brownie points with women, and its true, some women will pat you on the head and say what a nice and amazing guy you are, but they're not going to **** you either.

[123321]

I can see both sides of this argument. I can see how legalizing prostitution can be harmful. I can also see how legalizing prostitution can make it safer, in some ways.

 

It's a no-win situation. And I think that's why the police are arresting, instead of legalizing. It's better to be against it than to be for it.

 

None of this should matter, it's a matter of personal rights and personal freedom, not personal safety. People take personal risks all the time and it's legal, as it should be.

 

For the record, I'm against laws for adults such as seat belt laws, helmet laws, and so on although I ALWAYS wear full safety gear and use seatbelts. It's not my place to tell others they must do so.

 

 

 

No I'm trying to see what agenda you're pushing. I see it's not the feminazi one , since you oppose the murder of children. If it's the Christian one, and you have premarital sex, then yes you are a damn hypocrite

 

Seems to me she's a Christian wannabe with lesbian urges.

 

 

 

At least you and I agree on believing abortion to be wrong though, like prostitution, pornography and all manner of other wrongs, we can't control what others do.

 

Can not or should not?

 

 

 

Well, this "feminazi" is in favor of legalizing prostitution. Nor do I see any problem with porn; to the extent that certain subgenres of porn are degrading to women, they are a reflection of certain societal attitudes, not the cause.

 

That said, I am always dismayed to see sex itself conflated with degradation as far as women are concerned.

 

Being for a womans right to control her own body should be a pro-feminist thing I would have thought.

[AHardDaysNight]

A woman's right to control her own body

 

Yes, but where exactly does that fall into play, when it's the pimp who controls the woman's right to control her own body?

[Minnie09]

We Americans are the only nation that bans prostitution while strip clubs are legal. Where's the logic in that? It should be legal. It is everywhere else in the world. If you walk into a bar in Europe or in Asia where girls rub their naked bodies against horny guys for money, there's always a place upstairs where they can ****. And it's legal. Here, they sell themselves, too, and the sex still happens behind closed doors anyways, so why pretend it doesn't? At least the hookers have to get tested and use condoms in countries where prostitution is legalized. Here - everybody pretends it doesn't exist. What's the better, healthier option for a society? Strip clubs aren't clean, the concept is the same (selling body to patron), so somebody please explain the difference?

 

I've never understood that morally unsubstantiated double-standard. Prostitution is the moral downfall, so let's keep it illegal - but let's open some more titty bars.....

[joystickd]

Yes, but where exactly does that fall into play, when it's the pimp who controls the woman's right to control her own body?

 

When it comes to real pimping the woman chooses the pimp. The pimp calls the other pimp and lets him know your woman got knocked. A real pimp has no control over a woman's body because she choose to get pimped. A lot of people have a few misconceptions when it comes to certified pimpin. They look at blaxploitation films and think it b**ch where's my money. Essentially its a relationship (very unhealthy one) to the rest of the world (squares) they dont understand that concept. Pimps are the way they are because they spend most of the day with women that manipulate men. I will say some do and some don't. This is why they call their customers tricks. Brothel owners and madams don't have to do all of this. They couldnt make it out here cross country pimping in these different tracks. They would end up with no hoes and no hope. Also there are women that pimp and do it the same way men do.

[joystickd]

We Americans are the only nation that bans prostitution while strip clubs are legal. Where's the logic in that?

 

Strippers sell themselves too. A lot of them will break a date for the right amount of money. Why only except dollars in your g-string when you can also have benjamins for giving that vagina. Its simple economics supply and demand.

[Minnie09]

Strippers sell themselves too. A lot of them will break a date for the right amount of money. Why only except dollars in your g-string when you can also have benjamins for giving that vagina. Its simple economics supply and demand.

 

That's what I'm saying. But it seems socially acceptable here in the US, even to "Christians" and bible-freaks. What a distorted point-of-view! What an ignorant legislative system. We really don't need to be proud of that. We are just lying to ourselves.

[Floridaman]

It's not more OK. I married a virgin. I would NEVER marry a man who had routinely used prostitutes.

Denise,

How old was your guy when you married him?

Reason I ask, some guys in this thread think they're "odd" or "freaks" if they haven't had sex by a certain age.

 

Am sure you didn't look down on your guy for being inexperienced.

[Floridaman]

Originally Posted by Floridaman

I escaped singleness in my early 30s.

Anyone who reads my posts sees I haven't "forgotten" about single, older virgin or inexperienced men who feel desperate for love and physical affection.

Was once like them and know where they're coming from.

I try to give them tips on meeting women and forming relationships.

A lot of times it's futile dude.

It may be, but it's not in my hands.

If I personally knew some of them, and they confided they were having a hard time meeting women, sure, I'd try to help them as much as I could, by giving them tips and setting them up with an eligible young lady.

 

However, there's only so much a guy can do. It's mostly up to the guy to pursue women, act well on dates and take some initiative in meeting more women.

A lot of times it's futile dude.

 

Why?

If they put some effort into it and make it a deliberate thing, to go out and meet women, they'll have a higher likelihood of getting into a relationship.

That's what happened to me @25-26.

So because you've climbed the mountain you're going to forget about your brothers?

 

Wolf,

I don't know your age, but if someone told me @25-26 that within 4 short years, I could be

-in a serious relationship

-engaged or married,

....might not have believed them, but it's true.

 

Met my future wife shortly after turning 30.

 

The reason I started that thread about getting dates, I read so many postings here on LS and EnotAlone from older virgins or "inexperienced" men and thought I could help..

 

Maybe you ought to put a little bit of blame on the frigid wife as well. Maybe if women weren't as picky as they are or use sex as a weapon, prostitution and porn would become obsolete.

Yes, I do harbor feelings against her on this.

Though I see your point, there's been enough blame. She knows I'm upset. Would rather solve the problem than cause more strife.

 

Being in your 20's and not even knowing what a vagina feels like, contrary to what women will tell you, is pretty sad, pathetic, and completely unnatural from a biological point of view.

Know what you say there.... as I too missed-out on that "feeling."

Like I posted, only had sex all of 2 sep. X 19-30.....

 

All the guys here who talk about how high and mighty they are because they refuse to lose it to a hooker think this is going to win them brownie points with women, and its true, some women will pat you on the head and say what a nice and amazing guy you are, but they're not going to **** you either.

Not so sure about that one.

The women I saw posting earlier in this thread,

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3646117&postcount=86,

those women said they wouldn't respect a man for doing that and one said after a friend told her he lost his that way, she had less respect for him.

Originally Posted by Mangomonkey

 

My thing is why is that more okay than being a a virgin or just not getting any for a long time?

It's not more OK. I married a virgin. I would NEVER marry a man who had routinely used prostitutes.

 

You saw a prostitute as did another poster here (escorts) and am not going to throw rocks at anyone for that, as I understand why men frequent prostitutes. I've done things I'm not proud of myself.

Just not gonna recommend visiting prostitutes.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Floridaman

[Mrlonelyone]

Not so sure about that one.

The women I saw posting earlier in this thread,

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/show...7&postcount=86,

those women said they wouldn't respect a man for doing that and one said after a friend told her he lost his that way, she had less respect for him.

 

When it comes to love I have found that a maxim from the Vietnam war applies.

 

Don't look at what the otherside says look at what they do. (Paraphrasing Ngyen Van theiu Prez. S VN).

 

In my real life I have heard many many women talk about older virgin males as if they were freaks. Like something has to be wrong with them. Women from the hood to the quad of campus and of all colors. Our society values experience in men and chastity in women. It's sexist and hypocritical....but it is the way it is.

[123321]

... it goes both way ladies. No man is going to suddenly decide that porn and prostitution is wrong. You can bring up all sorts of feminist propaganda and it won't mean a thing.

 

Right and wrong have little to do with it; it's a matter of personal freedom. Telling a full grown adult they cannot have sex is no less wrong than forcing them to have sex. Telling them they cannot sell something they own is no less wrong than forcing them to sell it.

 

 

 

Yes, but where exactly does that fall into play, when it's the pimp who controls the woman's right to control her own body?

 

Substitute the sex industry terms for say, farm employees and then work out what we would do to fix it. We wouldn't make farm work illegal, that's for damn sure. Maybe we would outlaw slavery, just a wild idea I had. Spur of the moment like.

[KathyM]

You didn't answer my question about men who will never have sex in their life without paying for it.

 

And no, there is no such thing as a half-way Christian. If you believe in a religion, you follow the rules. Having premarital sex is not the same as telling a fib or some other minor sin, you can't pick and choose the aspects of theology you want. If you are going to be religious, you better be a zealot, if not it's pointless.

 

Practicing one type of sexual immorality and then speaking against sexual immorality is indeed hypocrisy. Kind of like an alcoholic arguing to keep cocaine illegal because of how addictive or life ruining potential it has.

I agree that Christians shouldn't pick and choose which of God's laws they should obey. And I also agree that there are some "lukewarm Christians" that don't take their religion seriously. But Christians are not perfect. They are human. They are sinners, but those that take their religion seriously make their best efforts to obey God's laws. I'm not being hypocritical here. Why do you keep trying to imply that? I've been a faithful wife to my husband for our entire marriage, despite all the ups and downs we've had and all the things we've been through. I'm not saying one thing and then doing another. And as far as men never having sex, I think their interests would be better served by working on finding an actual relationship and doing what it takes to accomplish that goal, rather than dragging themselves through the mud with meaningless sex with prostitutes who will only damage their concept of women and sex. Most men do find someone at some point in their life. It's pretty rare that a man would go his entire life without someone. And I also think you are putting too much value in sex. There are many things in life to value and enjoy. Having some meaningless act for 1/2 hour with some prostitute who has no feelings for you is not going to improve your life. It will damage it. Your concept of sex and of women is already damaged. You just don't see it. You see sex as some commodity that you are entitled to, rather than as a sharing of something special between two people. Your view of women and of sex is damaged.

[123321]

Your view of women and of sex is damaged.

 

I don't know if this is sad or hilarious coming from the mouth of a woman who believes it's OK for her to control OTHER peoples sex lives. Now that is perverse.

[Woggle]

We Americans are the only nation that bans prostitution while strip clubs are legal. Where's the logic in that? It should be legal. It is everywhere else in the world. If you walk into a bar in Europe or in Asia where girls rub their naked bodies against horny guys for money, there's always a place upstairs where they can ****. And it's legal. Here, they sell themselves, too, and the sex still happens behind closed doors anyways, so why pretend it doesn't? At least the hookers have to get tested and use condoms in countries where prostitution is legalized. Here - everybody pretends it doesn't exist. What's the better, healthier option for a society? Strip clubs aren't clean, the concept is the same (selling body to patron), so somebody please explain the difference?

 

I've never understood that morally unsubstantiated double-standard. Prostitution is the moral downfall, so let's keep it illegal - but let's open some more titty bars.....

 

Very true. Legalizing it will protect the prostitutes as well. They can be unionized and their employer will be subject to labor laws. It will stop pimps from beating them and then paying them nothing.

[Woggle]

****in going out to dinner once or twice then rooting isn't love its fake intimacy and you're all so full of **** it makes me sick.

 

As if a bunch of Americans give two ****s about some chick from south korea or a drugged up minimum wage earner. You guys don't even care about sick children because you deny them treatment in hospitals.

 

This is about your own vanity and dis like of the idea of prostitution.

 

Nothing to do with anything else.

 

I agree with this as well. This country doesn't give a damn about the poor and working class but all of a sudden get moralistic about sex workers.