OM/OW Telling the BS?

[SoMovinOn]

How about we look at it this way.

 

Rather than try to discuss this from a "the BS deserves the right to know what kind of person they're married to"...let's look at it from the much more realistic and practical stance of...

 

The BS deserves the right to know pertinent information about the violation of marital vows and expectations, with the intent to allow them to have enough information to make an informed decision on whether or not THEY want to continue that relationship, in light of the new information that has been deliberately denied and hidden from them up to this point.

 

Comparing this to any other "kind" of information is just ludicrous, and frankly a silly comparison.

 

Let's not try to confuse this discussion with poor comparisons.

 

Does the betrayed spouse deserve to know critical information that is likely to have a direct impact on a decision to remain married to their spouse or not?

 

YES

 

Can't see how anyone could view it under any other light when you look at it on it's own, and don't confuse it with anything else.

 

So, anyone knowing such information has an obligation to tell them?

[SoMovinOn]

I disagree with the idea that most BS's know. I would say that many BS's may sense that SOMETHING is wrong...but honestly many don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's an affair, nor the scope of the affair. There's a gut feeling that something is wrong...but not concrete EVIDENCE that proves it beyond a doubt...which is what most BS's typically require to make an informed decision about the situation.

 

Exactly my point! They *do* know. If they sense something is wrong, if there is a gut feeling - they know! At that point, they have a responsibility, to themselves at the very least, to find out what is wrong, by whatever means necessary. If the choose to bury their head in the sand, it can only be because they *know* something is going on. They don't need concrete evidence and they don't need all the details... they just need to know something is wrong.

 

The signs are there. No one is that good, they always slip up somewhere.

 

 

But...that doesn't lessen the need that a BS has for actual 'proof' of the affair in order to make an informed decision. It theoretically SHOULD come from the MM/MW...but realistically it can (and often does) come from any source. A friend or relative who learned something they 'shouldn't have'...the OW/OM who felt guilty or for some reason had a desire to inform them of the situation...or they discover the 'proof' on their own through various means.

 

Yes... the BS needs to confirm the A in order to make an informed decision. The BS should get that confirmation as soon as he/she knows something is wrong. Even if someone else tells them about the A, they will still need their own proof before they can make an intelligent, informed decision. The final confirmation should come from their spouse.

[SoMovinOn]

Somehow though you've managed to chastise people for not answering the questions or answering the wrong questions. This again seems to smack of telling people how/what to post.

 

Sorry Sid. I'll try to keep my posts more in line with how you think I should post. Right? Is there a difference here?

 

 

However you might raise a few less hackles if you cease "telling" people how to post.

 

I am not opposed to raising hackles. Some people just normally keep their hackles in the up position. Even those who don't, spirited discussions always present the risk of raising a hackle or two now and then.

 

 

Please note I'm not telling you how to post just making a suggestion which you are free to ignore.

 

Oh! I see how you are Sid. When I do it, I'm telling people how to post. When you do it, it's just a suggestion.

 

 

Just to get back to your original post, if the assumption or premise is that a spouse has the right to know then clearly as the spouse has the right to know then they must be told everything. It is not possible to answer "no" or discuss without negating the underlying assumption.

 

I would imagine anyone disagreeing with the original assumption would say so. My main interest was in how those who agreed with the original assumption would apply the same premise to situations other than affairs.

[SoMovinOn]

The examples you use may sound less important to people on this board, but they're not. Poor performance at work may allude to a lot more that will affect the marriage, whether it's a character flaw that will lead to financial and other problems, or an early sign of major depression. Speeding...well, that's something the spouse probably already knows if they spend time in a car together, or there were prior tickets. It would be petty to bring it up unless you're close enough to mention it.

 

But there's definitely an argument for full disclosure in a marriage, and friends pointing out things other than possible EM affairs. I've had friends and relatives who were blind to things that became evident only after the problem was out of control. One found out her husband was tens of thousands of dollars in debt only after they started coming after her. They're in their fifties and completely financially independent from one another (not even a mortgage to pay off), and she had no idea how screwed up he was. Another had an alcoholic wife. She never drank at home, and always appeared perfectly sober. She might have a glass of wine with dinner, but never more than that. He found up when she ended up in the hospital with cirrhosis of the liver. Her colleagues and close friends had always known she drank, but she never compromised her job, so nobody spoke up.

 

There are a million things other than cheating that can destroy a marriage. There are a million warning signs about somebody's fundamental character that are never pointed out in a way that the spouse becomes aware before it's already destroyed the marriage. It could range from poor performance at work to cheating on exams in college to speeding to just about anything.

 

My dad may or may not have cheated. He was an alcoholic, it wasn't obvious until just before the divorce (he traveled internationally as a journalist and hid it well early on), he ended up half a million dollars in debt when his business venture collapsed, and when my mom kicked him out, he skipped the country and left her to deal with the IRS. Forget about child support.

 

Yes, I would tell those close to me if I had any real concerns about their spouse. Cheating is huge, but it's by no means the only thing, and not necessarily the worst thing.

 

Good points Carrie, and, thinking about it in the context you provided, I suppose it is rather common for friends and family to point out things they see to someone they care about. Somehow, I missed seeing it that way up until now.

[OpenBook]

Exactly my point! They *do* know. If they sense something is wrong, if there is a gut feeling - they know! At that point, they have a responsibility, to themselves at the very least, to find out what is wrong, by whatever means necessary. If the choose to bury their head in the sand, it can only be because they *know* something is going on. They don't need concrete evidence and they don't need all the details... they just need to know something is wrong.

 

The signs are there. No one is that good, they always slip up somewhere.

 

 

 

 

Yes... the BS needs to confirm the A in order to make an informed decision. The BS should get that confirmation as soon as he/she knows something is wrong. Even if someone else tells them about the A, they will still need their own proof before they can make an intelligent, informed decision. The final confirmation should come from their spouse.

 

Movin, you nailed it!! EXACTLY.

 

Where's the beef, BS? Where are YOU in your own M? Wherever you are, it's not my job to clean up your mess. And it's none of my business anyway. Your marriage is not my responsibility or anyone else's - IT'S YOURS. That's what you signed up for when you took those vows.

 

Get off the couch and do your own damn housekeeping already!!

[MissBee]

Movin, you nailed it!! EXACTLY.

 

Where's the beef, BS? Where are YOU in your own M? Wherever you are, it's not my job to clean up your mess. And it's none of my business anyway. Your marriage is not my responsibility or anyone else's - IT'S YOURS. That's what you signed up for when you took those vows.

 

Get off the couch and do your own damn housekeeping already!!

 

I'm not sure if you've taken the time to actually understand what is going on in the thread or the actual question posed....but are instead using it as an opportunity to rant off topic about your personal beef

 

And SoMovinOn you seemed adamant about correcting others about the point of your thread and your actual questions....I hope you do so in this case as well, as from what I am seeing, it is not a response to your question either but taking it off subject to chastise BS.

[woinlove]

 

Where's the beef, BS? Where are YOU in your own M? Wherever you are, it's not my job to clean up your mess. And it's none of my business anyway. Your marriage is not my responsibility or anyone else's - IT'S YOURS. That's what you signed up for when you took those vows.

 

Get off the couch and do your own damn housekeeping already!!

 

Not sure what you are referring to here. Is "you" just you as an OW/OM, or you in general - even if the BS was a good friend of yours?

 

I never felt my friend's M was my responsibility, but I told her because I cared about her. You don't have to feel responsible to offer compassion. For OW/OM, some care just because they don't like to see others hurt (as in one recent thread where the OW told the BW) and others don't care or don't care very much. Some will offer the truth to the BS and others won't.

[SoMovinOn]

And SoMovinOn you seemed adamant about correcting others about the point of your thread and your actual questions....I hope you do so in this case as well, as from what I am seeing, it is not a response to your question either but taking it off subject to chastise BS.

 

Wow. This is a real sticking point for you, isn't it?

 

I respond to individual posts, regardless of who it is from. If I agree, I say I agree. If I disagree, I say I disagree. If it goes off on some tangent that I feel like following, I do, If I don't, I don't. Where I try to clarify my point isn't because I am being a "Stay on topic" Nazi, it is where the respondent is attempting to respond to some imagined question I asked or point I made. My clarification isn't because I care that they strayed from the original topic, but because they are misrepresenting *my* words, then attempting to take *me* to task for their own created arguments.

 

I don't care is someone is an OW, a BS, or an LMNOP. Honestly, I most often don't know.

 

You really need to get over this. ... Oh... that's just a suggestion. Feel free to not get over it if you don't want to.

[MissBee]

Wow. This is a real sticking point for you, isn't it?

 

I respond to individual posts, regardless of who it is from. If I agree, I say I agree. If I disagree, I say I disagree. If it goes off on some tangent that I feel like following, I do, If I don't, I don't. Where I try to clarify my point isn't because I am being a "Stay on topic" Nazi, it is where the respondent is attempting to respond to some imagined question I asked or point I made. My clarification isn't because I care that they strayed from the original topic, but because they are misrepresenting *my* words, then attempting to take *me* to task for their own created arguments.

 

I don't care is someone is an OW, a BS, or an LMNOP. Honestly, I most often don't know.

 

You really need to get over this. ... Oh... that's just a suggestion. Feel free to not get over it if you don't want to.

 

Okay I have no idea what you're on about to be honest.....

 

But it's neither here nor there.

[serial muse]

Exactly my point! They *do* know. If they sense something is wrong, if there is a gut feeling - they know! At that point, they have a responsibility, to themselves at the very least, to find out what is wrong, by whatever means necessary. If the choose to bury their head in the sand, it can only be because they *know* something is going on. They don't need concrete evidence and they don't need all the details... they just need to know something is wrong.

 

The signs are there. No one is that good, they always slip up somewhere.

 

 

OK, I came back to address this, because it is a serious pet peeve of mine.

 

No. The truth is what Owl said - you can know something is wrong, but know that that thing is an AFFAIR??? NO. That is a HUGE leap.

 

Don't you understand, there are so many, many, many things that COULD be wrong in a long-term relationship, issues with work, family, friends, rent/mortgage, illness, general malaise and unhappiness with the directions of one's life, depression, other mental illness - WHY is it that people INSIST that when a partner pulls away or acts odd that it MUST be only one thing - an affair??

 

That is the crux of the problem, MovinOn. Hindsight may be 20/20, but in the midst of ACTUAL life, vision is NEVER that clear.

 

I'm just so tired of the arrogance that produces this point of view. Or perhaps it's just a control issue.

 

Perhaps some former BS want to believe that they "knew" all along, so that they can comfort themselves that they'll never be caught unawares again. And certainly many OW/OM want to believe that the BS "knew" so that they can comfort themselves that they therefore have the BS' tacit approval. Or that the BS doesn't really care about the marriage, to "allow" this to happen.

 

But when did people forget that real life is not a movie? That it has many, many twists and turns, ups and downs, heartaches and joys, that have NOTHING to do with affairs?

 

What is wrong with people?? Are they really that afraid of uncertainty, of not being able to predict the future or read the minds of others?

 

Sometimes, you just have to trust people. Sometimes, you make a mistake. That's scary, but it's at least REAL.

Edited September 30, 2011 by serial muse

[SoMovinOn]

No. The truth is what Owl said - you can know something is wrong, but know that that thing is an AFFAIR??? NO. That is a HUGE leap.

 

Don't you understand, there are so many, many, many things that COULD be wrong in a long-term relationship, issues with work, family, friends, rent/mortgage, illness, general malaise and unhappiness with the directions of one's life, depression, other mental illness - WHY is it that people INSIST that when a partner pulls away or acts odd that it MUST be only one thing - an affair??

 

What leap? When you know the something that is wrong is that your spouse is having an affair, there is no leap. If what is wrong is that they are having problems at work, then what is wrong is they are having problems at work. If all you know is something is wrong and you don't know what - it is the responsibility of your spouse to tell you, and it is your responsibility to find out.

 

 

That is the crux of the problem, MovinOn. Hindsight may be 20/20, but in the midst of ACTUAL life, vision is NEVER that clear.

 

Always and never never work, right? My actual life vision was that clear.

 

 

But when did people forget that real life is not a movie? That it has many, many twists and turns, ups and downs, heartaches and joys, that have NOTHING to do with affairs?

 

What does that have to do with knowing your spouse is having an affair, or a gambling problem, or anything else? Unless they are an extremely good actor and liar, and unless you pretty much ignore them completely, how can you be married to someone and not know what's going on with them?

[donnamaybe]

A BS won't know what is really going on in their marriage to someone who is great at lying just like an OW/OM won't know what is really going on in their A with the same type of liar.

[whichwayisup]

Originally Posted by SoMovinOn

Exactly my point! They *do* know. If they sense something is wrong, if there is a gut feeling - they know! At that point, they have a responsibility, to themselves at the very least, to find out what is wrong, by whatever means necessary. If the choose to bury their head in the sand, it can only be because they *know* something is going on. They don't need concrete evidence and they don't need all the details... they just need to know something is wrong.

 

The signs are there. No one is that good, they always slip up somewhere.

Now, reverse this. It's the exact same thing, except change BS to OW!

 

How many OW were roped and fell for, believed MM's lies and manipulations?

 

A person who has LTA's a VERY skilled at lying, they've mastered it so well. Yet some OW who stay in verly LTA's are convinced "one day" he will leave and divorce. Yet the evidence, year after year, is there that he hasn't, yet some choose to believe and have hope. HOw is that different when a husband manipulates/lies to his wife over and over again and he's good at it? Remember, the VERY same man you (general you) fell for and are in love with, IS fooling and lying to his wife every.single.day and she's believing it just like you are. That's a fact.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[SoMovinOn]

Now, reverse this. It's the exact same thing, except change BS to OW!

 

How many OW were roped and fell for, believed MM's lies and manipulations?

 

A person who has LTA's a VERY skilled at lying, they've mastered it so well. Yet some OW who stay in verly LTA's are convinced "one day" he will leave and divorce. Yet the evidence, year after year, is there that he hasn't, yet some choose to believe and have hope. HOw is that different when a husband manipulates/lies to his wife over and over again and he's good at it? Remember, the VERY same man you (general you) fell for and are in love with, IS fooling and lying to his wife every.single.day and she's believing it just like you are. That's a fact.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Actually, that is my point - people choose to ignore what's in front of them, people choose to accept lies when their gut knows otherwise, people choose to believe what they want to believe, simply because it is what they want to believe. That's 100% on them. It is their responsibility to change that and open their eyes. No other person can tell them anything until they decide to do so.

 

It works for BS's, OW, OM, anyone being lied to about anything. If you know the person who is lying to you well enough, you know they are lying. If you choose to bury your head in the sand, it doesn't mean you didn't know, it means you CHOSE to not know what you *did* know.

[SoMovinOn]

More accurately would be to say I simply cannot how, given the background you describe, that you would develop the viewpoint you have.

 

The vast majority of other people who have been through the experiences you have very typically seem to come to other conclusions than you have.

 

Somehow you went through the same experiences but came out with a completely different viewpoint and mindset than all of those others.

 

Not calling right or wrong...simply pointing out where things seem different.

 

You're right on the money Owl. I didn't come out of it like so many others have, and I have developed some very different viewpoints. So, while *some* others are still wallowing in self pity, or burning themselves up with hate and loathing, I've over it and moving ahead. (pointing out I am not saying all do this, but, clearly some do. Jeezus... I found one board that is nothing but a bunch self flagellating BS's trying to outdo each other in their hatred and doing their damnedest to make an entire lifetime out of it. Who the hell wants to live like that?)

 

So, yes... as has been pointed out to me many times, there are a lot of different people here with different viewpoints, which are not always clearly right or wrong, just different, and to those who are open to different viewpoints, there may be something positive to be gleaned from any of them, even those with which you disagree or those you don't understand immediately (or ever).

[SoMovinOn]

I think it's because he is having an A himself with a MW and has made plans to leave his W, but not for quite a while yet. As I recall he has posted that his W is fully aware of his affair and his plans to leave. Perhaps that is why he seems different to many other BSs on this site.

 

I would have seemed equally as different had you talked with me before my A. I have never been one to wallow in self pity, or to hold on to anything negative. I get done with it, I get over it, and I move on. Next! ... there are too many awesome things in life for me to waste any of my time looking over my shoulder at any of the **** I've stepped in.

 

My W is as good as out of here, it's just a matter of details at this point. I gave her time to get herself together, as, at the time of our split, she was not able to get out, support herself, and live on her own. In spite of her infidelity, I have continued to show her a great deal of love and support, including getting her through some mental issues and severe alcoholism.

 

My A has had nothing to do with her, our M, or our split (the A didn't start until after our split - which has been a split, but living in the same house situation until recently)

 

However, none of that discounts what we were discussing here, which was I knew when she was thinking about having an A, I knew every time she did, I knew who she would target, I let her know I knew, and I gave her every opportunity to change what she was doing. I knew all that because I knew *her*. I had been married to her for 15 years at that point. My contention remains that one should know their spouse well enough to know when something is wrong, and it is the responsibility of the spouse to provide the truth. People can say that won't happen, but I know it *did* happen (in my case).

 

So, maybe, if I have done something so amazingly different from what everyone else manages, rather than telling me it's not possible, the better idea would be to ask me how I did it.

 

Just a thought.

[SoMovinOn]

I might have it wrong but smo is having an affair with his friends wife, who he also says is abusive to the mow. It's been ongoing for quite a while.

 

SMO is having an affair with his GF from 30 years ago. I did not know her H before she and I reconnected a year and a half ago. He and I were not friends, and are not friends, although I have spent some time with him, he likes me, and we get along well in social settings. I have no desire to be friends with him - primarily because he's a two faced, cowardly, abusive prick, but also, because of my own experience being betrayed by both W and a friend. I know how bad that double betrayal sucks. I know he is likely to find out about our A at some point, and I know how he will feel being betrayed by his W. I don't want to add to that in him thinking he also was betrayed by a friend. He doesn't call me his friend, he calls me his W's friend - and that is how I intend to keep it.

 

As for how long my A has been going on... for the first 9 months or so, we talked, realized we still had a connection, decided we'd like to pursue a relationship to see where it went, and had initial plans of getting divorced before getting involved on a deeper level or physically. Looking at the issues surrounding us getting D, primarily financial issues, issues with the housing market tanking (we both own houses), and the fact I had given my wife two years to get herself together and get out (she has 6 months left, although, she is, for the most part, gone now) - we decided to become involved now (which would be about a year ago now), rather than waiting. The choice was made for selfish reasons - because we wanted to. We made no pretext of justifications otherwise.

 

So, I am not sure what "quite a while" might be, but, it's been about a year.

[woinlove]

Then I have to say...your viewpoint now totally and completely just leaves me stunned.

 

Isn't this all pretty classic stuff for someone involved in a long affair who also socializes with his AP's spouse?

 

Despite the deception and hiding, the BS would know about the affair if they wanted to. The BS is a terrible person. The two Ms are dead and were dead before the A. That's a standard script that is seen fairly often. There is typically a lot of rationalization to make one feel better about oneself when one leads a life of deception. Although not all get so involved in general discussions, which perhaps brings out more facets of this behavior.

[SidLyon]

Isn't this all pretty classic stuff for someone involved in a long affair who also socializes with his AP's spouse?

 

Despite the deception and hiding, the BS would know about the affair if they wanted to. The BS is a terrible person. The two Ms are dead and were dead before the A. That's a standard script that is seen fairly often. There is typically a lot of rationalization to make one feel better about oneself when one leads a life of deception. Although not all get so involved in general discussions, which perhaps brings out more facets of this behavior.

 

I absolutely agree that SMO's stance is classic or typical for certain WSs, but unusual for a BS.

 

It's always interesting to see what is the predominant behavior of someone who identifies as both a WS and a BS. My opinion is that SMO exhibits typical WS reactions in his writings on LS. For all we know he may be different IRL.

[pureinheart]

I would have seemed equally as different had you talked with me before my A. I have never been one to wallow in self pity, or to hold on to anything negative. I get done with it, I get over it, and I move on. Next! ... there are too many awesome things in life for me to waste any of my time looking over my shoulder at any of the **** I've stepped in.

 

My W is as good as out of here, it's just a matter of details at this point. I gave her time to get herself together, as, at the time of our split, she was not able to get out, support herself, and live on her own. In spite of her infidelity, I have continued to show her a great deal of love and support, including getting her through some mental issues and severe alcoholism.

 

My A has had nothing to do with her, our M, or our split (the A didn't start until after our split - which has been a split, but living in the same house situation until recently)

 

However, none of that discounts what we were discussing here, which was I knew when she was thinking about having an A, I knew every time she did, I knew who she would target, I let her know I knew, and I gave her every opportunity to change what she was doing. I knew all that because I knew *her*. I had been married to her for 15 years at that point. My contention remains that one should know their spouse well enough to know when something is wrong, and it is the responsibility of the spouse to provide the truth. People can say that won't happen, but I know it *did* happen (in my case).

 

So, maybe, if I have done something so amazingly different from what everyone else manages, rather than telling me it's not possible, the better idea would be to ask me how I did it.

 

Just a thought.

 

I hold your views also. I was a BS many times. I felt that if they were having EMA's then the marriage was over..the marriage was very troubled to begin with.

 

I want to live and there is little time for bitterness and hate.

 

Having been through so many things by this time, I knew I'd be ok, and not only ok, I'd be better off. Through everything I am the victor and not the victim.

 

The big question ... why do former BS's have A's? Mine was never intended, although knew his M was over, not because his marriage was always on the rocks, but because his marriage was a lie and a game also. The situation was way too weird.

[Silly_Girl]

I absolutely agree that SMO's stance is classic or typical for certain WSs, but unusual for a BS.

 

It's always interesting to see what is the predominant behavior of someone who identifies as both a WS and a BS. My opinion is that SMO exhibits typical WS reactions in his writings on LS. For all we know he may be different IRL.

 

They're separated and in different relationships. Perfectly doable, I know from experience. I'd be interested to know why you call him a WS, and why say: "My opinion is that SMO exhibits typical WS reactions in his writings on LS"

[White Flower]

The examples you use may sound less important to people on this board, but they're not. Poor performance at work may allude to a lot more that will affect the marriage, whether it's a character flaw that will lead to financial and other problems, or an early sign of major depression. Speeding...well, that's something the spouse probably already knows if they spend time in a car together, or there were prior tickets. It would be petty to bring it up unless you're close enough to mention it.

 

But there's definitely an argument for full disclosure in a marriage, and friends pointing out things other than possible EM affairs. I've had friends and relatives who were blind to things that became evident only after the problem was out of control. One found out her husband was tens of thousands of dollars in debt only after they started coming after her. They're in their fifties and completely financially independent from one another (not even a mortgage to pay off), and she had no idea how screwed up he was. Another had an alcoholic wife. She never drank at home, and always appeared perfectly sober. She might have a glass of wine with dinner, but never more than that. He found up when she ended up in the hospital with cirrhosis of the liver. Her colleagues and close friends had always known she drank, but she never compromised her job, so nobody spoke up.

 

There are a million things other than cheating that can destroy a marriage. There are a million warning signs about somebody's fundamental character that are never pointed out in a way that the spouse becomes aware before it's already destroyed the marriage. It could range from poor performance at work to cheating on exams in college to speeding to just about anything.

 

My dad may or may not have cheated. He was an alcoholic, it wasn't obvious until just before the divorce (he traveled internationally as a journalist and hid it well early on), he ended up half a million dollars in debt when his business venture collapsed, and when my mom kicked him out, he skipped the country and left her to deal with the IRS. Forget about child support.

 

Yes, I would tell those close to me if I had any real concerns about their spouse. Cheating is huge, but it's by no means the only thing, and not necessarily the worst thing.

 

Carrie I love this post. Many behaviors are indicative of others. It's almost just too simple.

 

My exSIL confided after my separation that her brother hid all kinds of money from me throughout the 25 years we were M. Did she ever think to tell me once during the M? No. During his A with her best friend? No. Had I known the indecency of his hiding thousands (if not more) of dollars from his own wife and the mother of his precious children I might have left long before there was an A on his part. Wow, the consequences of that have my head spinning; had I left earlier I may never have had my A. Heck, I could be M to somebody else right now!

 

But nobody thought to tell me about his severe money issues. He was also day-trading at work with his own money as well as other co-workers. He had talked them all into the idea that he knew the stock market so they all pitched in to his investment idea. They all lost out. Nobody shared a word with me. He was eventually let go of his company and never quite recovered from the blow of that, which only caused him to fall deeper into his day-trading (gambling) habit. Had somebody given me a clue...

[White Flower]

 

People often tend to live up to your expectations of them. It took time, but, eventually I got the truth from her.

I love this and find it to be so true.

[White Flower]

Isn't this all pretty classic stuff for someone involved in a long affair who also socializes with his AP's spouse?

 

Despite the deception and hiding, the BS would know about the affair if they wanted to. The BS is a terrible person. The two Ms are dead and were dead before the A. That's a standard script that is seen fairly often. There is typically a lot of rationalization to make one feel better about oneself when one leads a life of deception. Although not all get so involved in general discussions, which perhaps brings out more facets of this behavior.

How would you know if it's classic? Who decides these things?

 

SMO has being very honest and forthright with you all and has told you what he knows. You're quick to call him out on knowing what kind of person his MOW is M to yet you say nothing about his WW, not that he's painted himself as the victim. I think that's what your (the general your) problem is; he's a BS but he's not crying victim like you (the general you).

 

There are quite a few BS on LS past and present who are not comfortable in the victim role, probably because we learned, then moved on. To name a few, PIH, Lakesidedream, SMO, FA, jennie-jennie, Confused, and myself. Many of us also went on to partake in EMAs probably in an effort to not only move on but to understand the dynamic more fully. To answer Owl's statement, it's not so rare afterall to be of a different mindset. It is rare, however, to find posters (BS turned AP) who are willing to dwell on a topic they are no longer invested in simply because they have in fact moved on from it.

 

You can call the story of Ms being dead a standard script if it makes you feel better, but for many of us BS who partook in As after our experiences the Ms most certainly were dead. And since it was true in our Ms this is the reason we so readily believe it to be true in our APs case.

I absolutely agree that SMO's stance is classic or typical for certain WSs, but unusual for a BS.

 

It's always interesting to see what is the predominant behavior of someone who identifies as both a WS and a BS. My opinion is that SMO exhibits typical WS reactions in his writings on LS. For all we know he may be different IRL.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean your hunch is correct. And to suggest that a poster is different IRL is far reaching. Why would he waste so much time posting all of his details only to portray someone he wasn't? I don't see a sock in any of SMOs writings. I hope I've misunderstood your post.

 

Not to go OT, but IMHO many BS become APs because they know the true value of love vs the value of M. M is awesome, I love it, even prefer it but if I had one without love I would walk away from it. In essence, I have put my money where my mouth is. Love is better than any contract, right or wrong in the eyes of the general consensus, which we were once a part of. Try not to forget that.

Edited September 30, 2011 by White Flower

[woinlove]

So, maybe, if I have done something so amazingly different from what everyone else manages, rather than telling me it's not possible, the better idea would be to ask me how I did it.

 

Just a thought.

 

People are arguing from their own experiences and from the idea that people who go to great lengths to lie and deceive do manage to have an effect, as does trusting someone. I don't see anyone here saying they are currently suspicious of their spouse and want to know how to find out for sure what is going on because their spouse insists nothing is. So your suggestion that they get advice from you seems like an attempt to dismiss those who disagree with your own perspective that the spouse should know and that they should be able to get truth even from a lying, deceiving spouse.

 

Having said that, I do find your stbxw a somewhat unusual woman. It is interesting that you got the truth from a spouse who you have described as a selfish pig, f*cked in the head and 100% responsible for the breakdown of your M.