Was called a mean bitch the other day just because I have high standards.

[nofool4u]

He shouldn't have reacted the way he did but I have money and I would not support a woman financially. No adult should depend on another person like that. I am not going to support a capable adult.

 

exactly.

 

I don't want a lazy woman either.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Okay, so you want to be taken to a nice restaurant, shown a good time, etc. I understand. And what does the guy want? Naturally, he wants to f*ck you. So provided there is a mutual understanding whereby he shows you a good time and you return the favor by showing him a good time, I see nothing wrong with that arrangement. That's how things works in some parts of the world, such as russia and eastern europe. If a guy spends a chunk of change taking a woman to a fancy restaurant or nightclub, it would be nearly unheard of for her to refuse going home with him later than night.

 

I do have a problem, however, if you are the kind of woman who wants the man to spend money on her while she's giving nothing in return (and no, a vaguely implied potential of possible sex in the future does not count

 

How do you know she hasn't given anything in return? Who are you to judge such things in her personal dating interactions? How do you know she won't give anything in return that won't be of equal worth in the future? I'm way interested in how you know these things. Please answer my questions.

 

A few men here seem to think a man shouldn't give anything to a woman without getting something in return. This is the "what about me/all about me" concept. Despite proclaiming a desire in looking for a a giving a kind relationship, a few of you sound like you are being the opposte of giving and kind. Further, a few other men are concerned about getting what they give in return in equal measure the second they get it. If your mother does something for you do you immediately feel the need to do something for her that is equal in measure? She cooks you a meal and right after that meal you cook her one? Your father takes you to a game and after that game you feel you need to take your father to one? And you expect to develop a relationship while your keeping a game score in your wallet? If I waited to give someone something or do something nice for something until they did it for me, I would have given a lot less joy to the people I care about.

 

Lets say I start dating a man. It's in the early stages of dating. He's working late one night in his office by himself.I call him up to see what he is doing. He is hungry and tired. I ask him if it's all right to stop by with a surprise and I come up with a beautiful dinner for him so he can eat. I guess I shouldn't do something like that. After all, he didn't do it for me. He's just a lazy cheap skate that wanted me to get him dinner! That's basically what you guys are saying.

 

When I was a little girl and my brother was a little boy, he was very possive about his toys. If I dared touched one of his toys, he would snatch it and hug it close to his chest and say "that's mine". This old tale from my childhood popped into my head after reading some of the responses in this thread.

 

What yours is yours and what is mine is mine no sharing will be had. After all, relationships aren't about sharing things. Whether that be good conversation, jokes, money/gifts, or sex. It's about conducting relationships in a fashion where you make surey our getting "yours" *first* and you make sure to keep two fists over everything you have so that a "gold digger" doesn't suck you dry.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Sean Connery is Scottish! Dead sexy, yes, but definitely Scottish.

 

(sorry just had to say that )

 

alright, alright.... I just googled him. Says he is Scottish. Damn! hate when I'm wrong!

 

I must be confusing him with some other Welsh hotty

 

Either way... he's still hot. Who cares what bloody island he's from (sorry, all you welsh/scottish blokes out there)

[LittleTiger]

alright, alright.... I just googled him. Says he is Scottish. Damn! hate when I'm wrong!

 

I must be confusing him with some other Welsh hotty

 

Either way... he's still hot. Who cares what bloody island he's from (sorry, all you welsh/scottish blokes out there)

 

Oh, believe me, it's important!

 

I'm English and we Brits are a bit funny about these things!

 

Besides which, Mr Connery's 'Scottish' accent is even hotter than he is!

[LittleTiger]

Just to bring this back on topic..........

 

I'd be willing to bet almost anything that neither Sean Connery nor James Bond would ever ask, or accept an offer from, a woman to share costs on a date!

 

My kind of man/men!

 

I can support myself financially but it's a real turn-on when a confident man takes charge on a date - which includes paying the bill. Any man who accepted an offer to split the bill while on a date would be friendzoned by me. Splitting the bill is 'friendly' not 'romantic', and there's absolutely nothing sexy about an action which basically says 'you're not worth it!'

[phineas]

Just to bring this back on topic..........

 

I'd be willing to bet almost anything that neither Sean Connery nor James Bond would ever ask, or accept an offer from, a woman to share costs on a date!

 

My kind of man/men!

 

I can support myself financially but it's a real turn-on when a confident man takes charge on a date - which includes paying the bill. Any man who accepted an offer to split the bill while on a date would be friendzoned by me. Splitting the bill is 'friendly' not 'romantic', and there's absolutely nothing sexy about an action which basically says 'you're not worth it!'

 

007 has a government slush fund ya know.

[ptp]

After reading some of the posts in this thread, my impression (I could be wrong) is that it just reaffirms the stereo type that women are attracted to guys with $ because it is their instinct to look for mates who can provide for/protect them.

 

That is fine I get that type of attitude, but then they should also realize the converse.

 

Which is that men are attracted to younger more fertile women.

 

If a woman on a first date tells me how important having $ is to her, my first reaction is if I lost my $ she would leave me for someone richer.

 

Not a pleasant thought for me and not someone who I would want to pursue.

Edited October 3, 2011 by ptp

[TheBigQuestion]

 

 

That's not at all what "we guys" are saying. "We guys" are opposed to having to spend money "courting" a woman we've only recently met and don't know that well for some indeterminate amount of times while she's making up her mind whether she likes us enough to have sex with us. That just not a position "we guys" like to be in. Since you like analogies so much, imagine having to start making car payments before your car loan gets approved...and to find out two months later that your loan application was rejected and you won't be getting the car.

 

 

This is probably the best explanation I've seen of my viewpoint so far. It's what I expressed in the thread I started a few weeks back about the "who pays?" question. The good news is that there certainly are ways to get to know a woman and her intentions without forking over a cent initially, even those who are used to or expect the red carpet treatment.

[samsungxoxo]

A good test for a guy to see if he has a gold digger or a user on his hands is ever a month or so of dating her take her to a gritty little hole in the wall spot for a bite to eat and see how she reacts. This will speak volumnes.

I might as well dressed up poorly with very old sneakers, smelly pants, greasy hair with dandruff and put big glasses.... making myself as ugly as possible.

I'm then testing him too if he's just going after the physical aspect... why not?

He's testing to see if the woman is a gold-digger so in return we would test him if he's a user or cheap man...

[Woggle]

I think much of this is a backlash against how many men just feel confused and like we don't know whether we are coming or going these days. For the few decades the gender roles have been rapidly changing and it seems that the rules change for men every few days and yet the rules don't seem to have changed for women very much.

 

This is very much a generalization but it seems that while some women resent the idea of doing the things for a man that previous generations did they very much want a man to do the same things they always did. For the past few decades all men have been hearing was how we need to embrace our feminine side and be equal partners and now all of a sudden we find women don't want that anymore. It's enough to drive a person insane.

 

I think that what you are seeing is a backlash against this where men are afraid to invest too much of anything in a woman because he doesn't know what the hell they want anymore.

[Woggle]

I might as well dressed up poorly with very old sneakers, smelly pants, greasy hair with dandruff and put big glasses.... making myself as ugly as possible.

I'm then testing him too if he's just going after the physical aspect... why not?

He's testing to see if the woman is a gold-digger so in return we would test him if he's a user or cheap man...

 

By all means get dressed up casual. It is good to know if a woman can enjoy herself in an environment that is not fancy or posh. Most of these hole in the wall places have the best food also.

[samsungxoxo]

By all means get dressed up casual. It is good to know if a woman can enjoy herself in an environment that is not fancy or posh. Most of these hole in the wall places have the best food also.

If he's going all his way being as cheap as possible just to test me... what's the point of trying to impress him by dressing up good? We would then be both testing each other and so it this would go nowhere.

 

Let's say one day I were to really take my time putting make-up (which I hardly ever do but sometimes do apply lip gloss), go out of my way finding a good outfit, new shoes and even get him to meet my parents.... but in return he goes on taking me to mediocre to poor place... on the next date I can then dress up as mediocre as possible...

 

It seems to make sense to me. Why would he have it all his way doing these mind test and yet not thinking we're all testing him at the same time?

[Woggle]

If he's going all his way being as cheap as possible just to test me... what's the point of trying to impress him by dressing up good? We would then be both testing each other and so it this would go nowhere.

 

Let's say one day I were to really take my time putting make-up (which I hardly ever do but sometimes do apply lip gloss), go out of my way finding a good outfit, new shoes and even get him to meet my parents.... but in return he goes on taking me to mediocre to poor place... on the next date I can then dress up as mediocre as possible...

 

It seems to make sense to me. Why would he have it all his way doing these mind test and yet not thinking we're all testing him at the same time?

 

Well she would know about the place in advance and I would never do it on the second or third date. It would happen down the line and it would be to see if she was a materialist snob or not.

[Sanman]

I might as well dressed up poorly with very old sneakers, smelly pants, greasy hair with dandruff and put big glasses.... making myself as ugly as possible.

I'm then testing him too if he's just going after the physical aspect... why not?

He's testing to see if the woman is a gold-digger so in return we would test him if he's a user or cheap man...

 

 

Go for it. While fewer men will date you, those that do are likely to like you for reasons other than appearance and less likely to leave you when you gain weight or get old. Or you meet a guy with a fetish for dirty, smelly women.

[Sanman]

How do you know she hasn't given anything in return? Who are you to judge such things in her personal dating interactions? How do you know she won't give anything in return that won't be of equal worth in the future? I'm way interested in how you know these things. Please answer my questions.

 

A few men here seem to think a man shouldn't give anything to a woman without getting something in return. This is the "what about me/all about me" concept. Despite proclaiming a desire in looking for a a giving a kind relationship, a few of you sound like you are being the opposte of giving and kind. Further, a few other men are concerned about getting what they give in return in equal measure the second they get it. If your mother does something for you do you immediately feel the need to do something for her that is equal in measure? She cooks you a meal and right after that meal you cook her one? Your father takes you to a game and after that game you feel you need to take your father to one? And you expect to develop a relationship while your keeping a game score in your wallet? If I waited to give someone something or do something nice for something until they did it for me, I would have given a lot less joy to the people I care about.

 

Lets say I start dating a man. It's in the early stages of dating. He's working late one night in his office by himself.I call him up to see what he is doing. He is hungry and tired. I ask him if it's all right to stop by with a surprise and I come up with a beautiful dinner for him so he can eat. I guess I shouldn't do something like that. After all, he didn't do it for me. He's just a lazy cheap skate that wanted me to get him dinner! That's basically what you guys are saying.

 

When I was a little girl and my brother was a little boy, he was very possive about his toys. If I dared touched one of his toys, he would snatch it and hug it close to his chest and say "that's mine". This old tale from my childhood popped into my head after reading some of the responses in this thread.

 

What yours is yours and what is mine is mine no sharing will be had. After all, relationships aren't about sharing things. Whether that be good conversation, jokes, money/gifts, or sex. It's about conducting relationships in a fashion where you make surey our getting "yours" *first* and you make sure to keep two fists over everything you have so that a "gold digger" doesn't suck you dry.

 

 

While the argument sounds good, why only criticize men for this attitude. The OP and several women are also about the 'me,me,me' attitude. The entire point of this thread is that the OP can't find what she wants in a man. There was nothing about what she was offering a man initially. So, why is it alright for women not be the ones who take that first leap of faith? Why not sleep with men on the first date every time in the hopes that you have a good one?

[thatone]

I was on a date last night with this guy. We began talking about relationships and what we look for in a mate. Since we were being open and honest, I told him I wanted a man without kids, and one who can support me financially.

 

He called me a mean bitch and said that I am shallow for not considering a man who perhaps isn't wealthy, but has "lots of love". He said I only want a man for money. His best argument was "Men with money don't know how to love women. They just buy them diamonds and expensive things and think that's enough". He said that men without money are the better kind, because they aren't shallow.

 

I'm beginning to think that the only reason I ever questioned my standards was because every man I have ever met didn't meet them.

 

Why does every guy think that if a woman wants a man with money, that she ONLY wants the money and nothing else?

 

coming from a man with money, to be honest, it's easier if you're honest and that's what you want.

 

that's why men with money wind up with what other people call "gold diggers". it's easier. women who value their independence more than their relationships are not relationship material. they don't know what they want. women who want a man with money are pretty cut and dried in their wants and needs, and from the man's standpoint, you can reduce it to simple dollars and cents. i have x amount and you can spend y amount. simple.

 

keep at it, you'll find one.

[amymarieca]

I guess that's because in this country the women don't know how to cook or clean. They just buy frozen dinners, microwave it and call it a day.

 

I'm just very bitter today. I'm so sick of meeting ugly, unintelligent and unsophisticated or well-mannered people. That's why, whether I turn into a big bitch or not, I get the same results.

 

At least if i'm a big bitch, I don't lead any men on. Unless of course, they know what they're doing.

 

Ummm really? You voluntarily move to this country and then complain about the way people live. Sorry, but I have absolutely no sympathy for you. Just because women who live in your country are apparently the only women who know how to cook (according to you), doesn't mean that's how every single person should live. Some people are happy being a homemaker and some are happy having careers. Seriously, get over yourself. You aren't the greatest catch just because you can somehow whip up a meal and do laundry. Lots of women do that and have good jobs. Guys are allowed to have certain standards too, so just because he disagreed with you doesn't make him a jerk.

[Art_Critic]

coming from a man with money, to be honest, it's easier if you're honest and that's what you want.

 

........

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Feelsgoodman

Being "giving and kind" to someone you barely know without asking for anything in return is a sure way to get taken advantage of.

 

No one is asking you to buy her diamonds. Beginning dates don't even have to be expensive at all.

 

If you don't want to be "giving and kind", then be "bitter and angry" and see how well that works out for you. Or just treat her like you were going out with your best guy friend and see if you create inspire any romantic feelings in her.

 

This is one of the most absurd analogies I've ever read. Are you really trying to compare one's relationship with his mother and father (the people who have likely done more for you than the rest of the world combined) to a relationship with a woman he has just met???

 

What I'm trying to say is that relatoinships develop between mutual like and doing things for people you care about without expecting things in return. I'm not saying you have to go to bat for people you just started seeing. What I am saying is that if you have an interest in someone, and a desire to make a connection with them, you are going to get further by being more giving then looking for this ridiculous tit for tat check list.

 

 

That's not at all what "we guys" are saying. "We guys" are opposed to having to spend money "courting" a woman we've only recently met and don't know that well for some indeterminate amount of times while she's making up her mind whether she likes us enough to have sex with us. That just not a position "we guys" like to be in. Since you like analogies so much, imagine having to start making car payments before your car loan gets approved...and to find out two months later that your loan application was rejected and you won't be getting the car.

 

Course you're not saying that. Because you still want a woman to do nice things for you even if you didn't give her anything for her to do it. If a woman you just met did something completely nice for you that cost money, I bet you wouldn't have one complaint.

 

And you're not even considering the other side of it. Which is for us women, not knowing how serious a man is about us. If he just wants sex or if he's interested in something more serious. And usually if you dive right in with talks about a relationship, most guys want you to slow down. Because in the beginning stages of dating, most guys just want to have fun and "see what happens". There is risk for both sides so don't sit there behind your computer and act like all guns are pointed at you while women are the firing squand.

 

Women are making those car payments themselves too. They are investing in a man in hopes he wants a relationship with her. Sometimes that doesn't happen like she wished and she comes off a litle more worse for wear for it. But you don't care about that investment. You care about the investment you as a man might make because that's what you deemed important in this situation.

 

 

How long ago was that? Judging by the level of your arguments, it sounds like you are still that little girl.

 

Yeah, I'm the smartest 7 year old you ever met.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

While the argument sounds good, why only criticize men for this attitude. The OP and several women are also about the 'me,me,me' attitude. The entire point of this thread is that the OP can't find what she wants in a man. There was nothing about what she was offering a man initially. So, why is it alright for women not be the ones who take that first leap of faith? Why not sleep with men on the first date every time in the hopes that you have a good one?

 

Actually, I've called out FrustratedStandards, the woman who started this thread, several times. Go back and read the entire thread.

 

Both men and women are risking something when they date. The values don't always come up the same ways but each side has something to risk. Has something that makes them vunerable. I never advocated men go buy a girl diamonds or to the most expensive restuarant. This conversation isn't about men being expected to pay for fancy things in the beginning stages of dating. Big Question was complaining about buying a movie ticket. If you think a woman sleeping with a man is worth an 8-10 dollar movie ticket that I don't know what to say to you.

[samsungxoxo]

Plus, if she is naturally dirty and smelly, with greasy hair and dandruff, and only fixes herself up when she goes out, the guy has a right to know that before committing to a long-term relationship.

Just like guys are lately into these testing games with us... so are we with them.

 

IMO if a guy wants to be a very cheap that he can't even afford going to the movies then he deserves a girl that goes with baggy, old clothes. They deserve each other.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Why would I have to sleep with him? Why don't I just cook him dinner and invite him over to my place for a first or second date. I can leave a little basket next to the door where he can drop in his share for the groceries he ate that where mine. That would be fair wouldn't it?

[samsungxoxo]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Why not sleep with him first and then see if he's interested in taking you out to fancy places and pursing a relationship.

And what if he's still cheap and is into just playing around.. then my guess is I wasted enery giving him pleasure... this would mean I was played for a fool.

 

What you're saying is comparable to throwing myself from a plane and hoping my parachute opens up... risky IMO...

Edited October 4, 2011 by samsungxoxo

[TheBigQuestion]

Actually, I've called out FrustratedStandards, the woman who started this thread, several times. Go back and read the entire thread.

 

Both men and women are risking something when they date. The values don't always come up the same ways but each side has something to risk. Has something that makes them vunerable. I never advocated men go buy a girl diamonds or to the most expensive restuarant. This conversation isn't about men being expected to pay for fancy things in the beginning stages of dating. Big Question was complaining about buying a movie ticket. If you think a woman sleeping with a man is worth an 8-10 dollar movie ticket that I don't know what to say to you.

 

Just as in the thread I started a few weeks back, you once again prove that you either have an agenda or you just aren't very good at reading.

 

I didn't complain about "buying a movie ticket." All I've done is repeatedly ask why it is that society EXPECTS a man to buy that ticket for a complete stranger, and then simultaneously allows him to be scorned for choosing not to do so. And further, why is the opposite scenario never in issue? Why is it that I don't get up in arms like many women in this thread have if a woman isn't taking me out to dinners or buying me trinkets early on? And of course, when I presented an alternative to dating that worked for me (that also worked on women regardless of what kind of treatment they were previously accustomed to), I was mostly met with disbelief and anger from female posters. That wasn't surprising but it was disappointing that most of the responders failed to argue without making idiotic appeals to emotion.

 

No one has provided an explanation to this overarching question that actually makes sense, and because I'm a tenacious bastard, I'm going to keep asking it anyway.

 

Additionally, no one in this thread is talking about expensive first dates/early dates either. I (and other guys in this thread) are simply arguing against the idea that there is a valid justification for treating women preferentially in such a manner, regardless of cost. There aren't very many social conventions in which paying for something for a total stranger is not only recommended, but also that if the person chooses not to pay, that person is subject to scorn. My question is, why is the social convention of dating different? Saying "it's tradition" or "That's the way it's always been" is a stupid response, because upholding tradition for tradition's sake has rarely done humanity any good. Saying "it's just my preference" is also a stupid response, because having a "preference" doesn't necessarily make it permissible. I'm sure you can think of many preferences that one can have that are stupid or flat out wrong.

[TheBigQuestion]

No, I wouldn't complain. But I also wouldn't feel entitled to her nice gesture or think that it was owed to me. And I certainly wouldn't hold it against her if a woman I just met didn't go out of her way to be nice to me (and to be honest, I can only think one of instance in my entire life where a woman I just met did something nice to me that cost money; interestingly enough, that woman was Russian...just to go against the grain of ethnic stereotypes in this thread).

 

What you obviously don't get is that it's the attitude of entitlement displayed by the likes of the OP that makes men resent paying for women. It's not necessarily about the money itself.

 

 

The entitlement is what I take issue with as well.