Why are all the good, decent women unattractive?

[vsmini]

lmao.............. A NY thing....

 

get f'cked douche bag.

 

 

I love this reply to the OP.

What is wrong with you OP? Seriously - you always drag NY into your posts. That's so weird.

 

If I let my catty side out of the bag and you're talking about women who are attractive and doing well for themselves and then reference your last GF - she worked at Target...doesn't exactly sound like she was chief of medicine at Sinai.

 

I think you're just playing the blame game. The problem always seems to be someone else.....never you. That's a red flag mah friend. Besides....beauty is subjective.

 

One man's beautiful Target cashier with bad highlights and black lip liner and no lip stick is another man's trash.

[AHardDaysNight]

I've never lived in New York, but I've heard that people there are pretty cold.

 

Perhaps this extends to women?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

ChessPieceFace

..These unfortunate effects of positive reinforcement due to inherent attributes ARE also present in males, but to a significantly lesser extent. Partly due to the difference in the male psyche, and partly due to the difference in looks not being NEARLY as equally prized in a male. In the male, "piggish alpha-male dominance" would be the equivalent to female beauty, producing the same kinds of positive reinforcement from peers, but the trait of "piggish, alpha-male dominance" is not inherently free of blame in the way that beauty is inherently free of blame.

 

So, then, as a society, one can conclude that the more shallow we become as a culture, the more evil and amoral our children (and especially girls/women) will become over time. Fascinating.

 

Positive reinforcement in both young girls and young boys are actually key to a healthy development. I infact have met many parent's (usually the Mother is particular sensitive to this because of her own struggles with her body image and beauty) that try to raise their daughters by making sure to give them positive reinforcement that doesn't include their beauty. No mother or father wants their little girl's spirit to be raised on the idea that beauty is what matters about her. However, in this world, young girls pick up on that message very early. Aside from the positive reinforcement you say comes from parents about a child's looks, you completely leave out the positive reinforcement that comes out from society in general. From marketing, to the little things kids can't avoid that they pick up on everyday seeing how adults behave, general media, to boys and men who prize good looking females. Women know that their looks matter from a very young age not all because of positive reinforcement from parents but because of how people in general react to good looking or not so good looking people. And men are 100% included in this. They are just as gulity as prizing and motiving girls and women through looks as women are for doing it to themselves.

 

As for the idea that coddling and entitlement issues don't happen in much with men, I beg to differ. Especially with current young men when we see men living an extended childhood filled with video games, still living at home, and wanting to act like they are teenagers well into their late 20s.

 

Further, "piggish-alpha-male-behavior" gets excused pretty offten in our society. When famous men cheat, women are told "what did you expect". When famous men sleep around, other men act like that's the holy grail of life. Some men even talked about how they wanted to be Charlie Sheen when it came out he was banging pornstars. And the ever classic line that is often used to defend poor male behavior.."boys will be boys".

 

You're assumptions are incomplete, half-assed attempts to express your biased misognistic overtones. Which apparently is your belief system that women/girls are worse then men. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see right through that junk.

[grkBoy]

I'm serious about this too. Maybe it's just a NY thing or whatever, but I'm noticing that all the women with great personalities are either over the hill or physically undesirable. This is about 8 out of every 10. And the other 2 are average at best.

 

I remember a guy (who is never faithful to any women) once stated how it seemed every hot girl he meets has no personality and works a crappy job (clothing store, tanning salon, waitress, etc), yet every girl he meets with a brain and career tends to be "plain" or ugly.

 

Face it...the super-hot "good women" aren't single for very long. Every one of those rare finds I've seen usually marries their high school or college boyfriend.

 

Either keep looking, or change up those standards into something realistic.

 

Womens' (and more importantly girls') psyche depends on the approval of a dominant male. Early on, it is likely her father, and then later it would be alpha males in her peer group.

 

Beautiful girls will get positive reinforcement early on without any effort. Attention and adoration and praise, all just for existing. They must be so great! They can do whatever they want and they get positive reinforcement. Thus, little or no effort is spent on improvement of self, on personal accomplishment, and on forming the positive behaviors and traits which would produce genuine, deserved positive reinforcement from others.

 

Thus, many pretty women who are ditsy (never bothered developing their mind), mean (never bothered developing a sense of empathy) and self-absorbed (their peers say they are better than others, who are they to disagree?)

 

Some beautiful women weren't so beautiful as kids. I believe that worked to their great advantage in life.

 

These unfortunate effects of positive reinforcement due to inherent attributes ARE also present in males, but to a significantly lesser extent. Partly due to the difference in the male psyche, and partly due to the difference in looks not being NEARLY as equally prized in a male. In the male, "piggish alpha-male dominance" would be the equivalent to female beauty, producing the same kinds of positive reinforcement from peers, but the trait of "piggish, alpha-male dominance" is not inherently free of blame in the way that beauty is inherently free of blame.

 

So, then, as a society, one can conclude that the more shallow we become as a culture, the more evil and amoral our children (and especially girls/women) will become over time. Fascinating.

 

I agree. This is why jerks will be jerks. If women keep forgiving and/or condoning their behavior, then they see no reason to change.

[ChessPieceFace]

Positive reinforcement in both young girls and young boys are actually key to a healthy development.

 

Where did I say POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT ITSELF was the problem?? Incredible. Please feel free to read my post again for its actual content, rather than for things you invent to get offended about.

 

In fact, I said the problem was positive reinforcement coming into a beautiful girl's psyche JUST for being beautiful.

 

I infact have met many parent's (usually the Mother is particular sensitive to this because of her own struggles with her body image and beauty) that try to raise their daughters by making sure to give them positive reinforcement that doesn't include their beauty.

 

This is a good and important tactic for preventing the problem I described.

 

No mother or father wants their little girl's spirit to be raised on the idea that beauty is what matters about her. However, in this world, young girls pick up on that message very early. Aside from the positive reinforcement you say comes from parents about a child's looks. You completely leave out the positive reinforcement that comes out from society in general. From marketing, to the little things kids can't avoid that they pick up on everyday seeing how adults behave, general media, to boys and men who prize good looking females.

 

I never said it "came from the parents", I said that girls look for approval from their alpha males, and that early on that would be the father, transitioning to objects of romantic interest later on.

 

But you're right in being more general about it, that the unjustified positive reinforcement is coming in from all sides. And not just toward them personally, but also in what they see in the media. "Look at all the beautiful girls, they get so much praise, I am a beautiful girl, therefore I am so great." Etc. However, I stand by my statement that the most important positive reinforcement is coming from their alpha males.

 

Women know that their looks matter from a very young age not all because of positive reinforcement from parents but because of how people in general react to good looking or not so good looking people. And men are 100% included in this. They are just as gulity as prizing and motiving girls and women through looks as women are for doing it to themselves.

 

I don't remember saying men and boys were blameless for their preference of beautiful girls. They certainly hold a large portion of responsibility for it. Fathers especially need to refrain from falling into this trap early on, praising their daughters for being "such a beautiful girl" and not praising them for things they accomplish. I think they almost always have good intentions when doing it, but very poor comprehension about what they are really doing.

 

As for me personally, if you were to ask me to draw up a list of my most important characteristics I want in a woman, beauty would NOT be in the top 10. I do admit it MIGHT be among the top 20, and also that INITIALLY, I, like most people, have a habit of showing interest in the more attractive choices. I don't see an easy remedy to that initial selection behavior. Until you know someone, all you see is what is on the surface.

 

As for the idea that coddling and entitlement issues don't happen in much with men, I beg to differ. Especially with current young men when we see men living an extended childhood filled with video games, still living at home, and wanting to act like they are teenagers well into their late 20s.

 

What does any of this have to do with "coddled men"? We were talking about poor behaviors in people formed by unjustified positive reinforcement for their inherent attributes, rather than their accomplishments. Coddling issues would have to do more with a failure on the part of parents to develop a pattern of responsibility and motivation in their children.

 

I think you are stretching here, in order to start harping on an issue you have with men, since I've offended you so greatly by stating that girls need approval from males. Instead of being angry that your gender doesn't live up to the sexless, gender-blind idealism that feminism has sold you, why not try to find a way to be a realist while still striving for ideals. Men are not women and women are not men. Both men and women have separate and distinct inherent failings.

 

Girls look for approval from men. That is not a condemnation, it's just a fact. It is how they deal with that fact that matters. Men inherently judge themselves by their sexual conquests. That is another inherent failing and I judge men very harshly for not choosing to rise above it.

 

Further, "piggish-alpha-male-behavior" gets excused pretty offten in our society. When famous men cheat, women are told "what did you expect". When famous men sleep around, other men act like that's the holy grail of life. Some men even talked about how they wanted to be Charlie Sheen when it came out he was banging pornstars. And the ever classic line that is often used to defend poor male behavior.."boys will be boys".

 

And all of those things illustrate what I myself said. That males are unfairly rewarded and praised for this piggish behavior, a behavior which (by the way) disgusts me personally. I fail to understand what your issue is here.

 

You're assumptions are incomplete, half-assed attempts to express your biased misognistic overtones. Which apparently is your belief system that women/girls are worse then men. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see right through that junk.

 

You're projecting most or all of the misogyny, as usual.

 

But I will say this -- in general, women seem to have much less ability for introspection than men. I don't know exactly why this is, just that it is very apparent, both from the people I know personally and from people online. Part of the problem is definitely societal, where women are now told that most problems in life are the fault of men, especially problems in relationships. This programming is not accidental, and is in fact part of an over-arching plot by the powerful elite to destroy the family. (But I digress.)

 

Thus, any failed relationship is rationalized as being the fault of the man doing x, y and z, and not the fault of any poor behavior on the part of the woman. MOST of the women I know in person ARE this way. If I am somehow cursed and most women are in fact not this way, no one would be happier than me.

Edited October 6, 2011 by ChessPieceFace

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Where did I say POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT ITSELF was the problem?? Incredible. Please feel free to read my post again for its actual content, rather than for things you invent to get offended about.

 

In fact, I said the problem was positive reinforcement coming into a beautiful girl's psyche JUST for being beautiful.

 

What is incredible to me is this expression of outrage because I took your comments with exactly the value you portrayed them with. This was your topic of interest to talk about was it not? The positive reinforcement young girls get for their looks? You're topic of interest was to blame positive reinforcement of a girl's beauty as being some kind of monolithic event that sours said girl and eventaully turns her into a person more bankrupt emotionally then how young men turn out.

 

I never said it "came from the parents", I said that girls look for approval from their alpha males, and that early on that would be the father, transitioning to objects of romantic interest later on.

 

But you're right in being more general about it, that the unjustified positive reinforcement is coming in from all sides. And not just toward them personally, but also in what they see in the media. "Look at all the beautiful girls, they get so much praise, I am a beautiful girl, therefore I am so great." Etc. However, I stand by my statement that the most important positive reinforcement is coming from their alpha males.

 

I'm aware of what you said. *I* said "parents" because ideas about beauty and what it means come from both a mother and a father. A girl doesn't only look for approval from fathers. Infact, early on in development, usually children seek approval and knowledge of themselves through the same sex gender parent as themselves. Young girls are likely to adopt a view of themselves based on how their motheres deal with beauty more then they are likely to develop a view about themselves for their father's praise. Mothers with low self esteem about their bodies are more likely to have girls that have low self esteem about their bodies. I don't deny though that little girls seek their father's approvel. It's just only half the story. And it might not be even the *most* important side of the story while it's still an important part of it.

 

I don't remember saying men and boys were blameless for their preference of beautiful girls. They certainly hold a large portion of responsibility for it. Fathers especially need to refrain from falling into this trap early on, praising their daughters for being "such a beautiful girl" and not praising them for things they accomplish. I think they almost always have good intentions when doing it, but very poor comprehension about what they are really doing.

 

I think little girls should be praised for both. Beauty shouldn't be something we are scared of. Little girls should receive praise for their beauty and their accomplishments. But the key is that both mothers and fathers have a healthy view about what beauty means and supporting that healthy view in their children. Again, in both young girls and young boys since we are talking about early socialization. And young boys are likely to have sisters and absorb how both mothers and fathers treat their sisters and their beauty.

Currently soceity has a pretty unhealthy view about what makes a woman/girl beautiful. Women spend millions of dollars on products that are suppose to make them more beautiful. Men spend millions of dollars on sex or sex related products that support some of the poorest ideals of women I've ever seen.

 

As for me personally, if you were to ask me to draw up a list of my most important characteristics I want in a woman, beauty would NOT be in the top 10. I do admit it MIGHT be among the top 20, and also that INITIALLY, I, like most people, have a habit of showing interest in the more attractive choices. I don't see an easy remedy to that initial selection behavior. Until you know someone, all you see is what is on the surface.

 

It's not the desire for an attractive partner that is wrong. It's how society has twisted the idea of what makes a woman beautiful that is the issue.

 

 

What does any of this have to do with "coddled men"? We were talking about poor behaviors in people formed by unjustified positive reinforcement for their inherent attributes, rather than their accomplishments. Coddling issues would have to do more with a failure on the part of parents to develop a pattern of responsibility and motivation in their children.

 

And you don't see that giving someone what you call unjustified positive reinforcement for their inherent attributes a form of coddling? Especially when they aren't expected to develop any other traits except to be beautiful? Sure that's coddling! If a little girl is only told she is beautiful and isn't taught to develop any other traits, she is most certainly being coddled.

 

And it happens just as much in boys and young men. It just shows itself in different ways. And my point with this, is your idea that women are "especially" worse then men. The fact is that this happens in both genders and it happens more then you care to admit in the male gender as it does the female. And it shows up in different ways.

 

I think you are stretching here, in order to start harping on an issue you have with men, since I've offended you so greatly by stating that girls need approval from males. Instead of being angry that your gender doesn't live up to the sexless, gender-blind idealism that feminism has sold you, why not try to find a way to be a realist while still striving for ideals. Men are not women and women are not men. Both men and women have separate and distinct inherent failings.

 

I'm sorry but point me to where this supposed "anger" is being portrayed about my gender not living up to a "sexless, gender-lbind idealism that feminism" supposed sold me. Infact, show me the feminism in my post when I clearly stated that the issue here laid in both men AND women.

 

Further, show me where I harped on issues with men when it was really a fraction of my other discussion. It's funny that your head is spinning all because I pointed out the inconsistancy in the idea that men don't show their own gender issues in different ways. Thus proving that society isn't just worse off "especially" because of women.

 

Now lets be realistic about what I really said instead of throwing strong emotional words around such as "feminism" that have nothing to do with anything I said and really is your personal attempt to muddy up a discussion with nonsense. What I *am* saying is that this very issue of coddling and souring children crops up in both genders. And it's exactly my point that men and women are different so this very issues crops shows up differently in each gender. And no gender is particularly more the cause of the detriment of society then the other. That's the difference between you and I. I admit that both men and women play their role. You admit they do too but you hold a special place for the role women play as somehow being "worse". Tell me where the "feminism" or even the "misogny" is in my belief. I challenage you.

 

 

Girls look for approval from men. That is not a condemnation, it's just a fact.

 

I agree. Girls do look for approval from men. However, they also look for approval from women. That's why these are issues on both side of the coin that go beyond what you've gotten into here.

 

And all of those things illustrate what I myself said. That males are unfairly rewarded and praised for this piggish behavior, a behavior which (by the way) disgusts me personally. I fail to understand what your issue is here.

 

My issue is acknowleding that men are unfailry rewarded and praised for their own poor behavior and yet you hold women to a higher standard so much so that you believe their poor behavior is more of a bain on society then a mens. When my point is that both play their role in equal measure. And yet for that, you tell me I'm expressing a misogonistic attitude. So further, it's okay for you to express an opinion about women's edge on the destruction of society but when I say that edge is really found equally in men and women, i'm somehow being misognistic. Which is actually quite illogical on your part.

 

You're projecting most or all of the misogyny, as usual.

 

I don't think you know enough of my opinons to even make a statement of "as usual". I also think this statement is funny based on what i've pointed out through out this post. I'm not the one saying men are worse then women. You however have said the reverse. But please, do tell me where this supposed "misogny" of mine is. I'm all ears.

 

But I will say this -- in general, women seem to have much less ability for introspection than men.

 

And here lies your misogonistic undertones.

 

You do know that women are more likely to buy self help books, talk openly about their relationships struggles with oher women and seek professional council when issues in their life crop up don't you?

 

 

Thus, any failed relationship is rationalized as being the fault of the man doing x, y and z, and not the fault of any poor behavior on the part of the woman. MOST of the women I know in person ARE this way. If I am somehow cursed and most women are in fact not this way, no one would be happier than me.

 

I'm not here to argue with your personal life experience. I can't and don't even want to. However, I clearly disagree with the idea that women are less introspective then men. From my very own life experience itself. And I find the comment you made one of the more misogonistic things I have read on here.

 

Failed reslatoinships are usually due to things both parties do. And I don't exactly see men coining the ability to step up and accept responsibilty for ways they may have contributed to the end of a relationship. Or working hard to bridge gaps. Both men and women struggle with how to handle their personal relationships and both experience alot of hurt and pain. Which is when all encompassing comments about how each gender acts is usually born from.

[Els]

 

But I will say this -- in general, women seem to have much less ability for introspection than men. I don't know exactly why this is, just that it is very apparent, both from the people I know personally and from people online. Part of the problem is definitely societal, where women are now told that most problems in life are the fault of men, especially problems in relationships. This programming is not accidental, and is in fact part of an over-arching plot by the powerful elite to destroy the family. (But I digress.)

 

Thus, any failed relationship is rationalized as being the fault of the man doing x, y and z, and not the fault of any poor behavior on the part of the woman. MOST of the women I know in person ARE this way. If I am somehow cursed and most women are in fact not this way, no one would be happier than me.

 

I agree with the majority of your post, but I do think this is just applicable to the women you know. You might want to ask yourself how you select the women you know - it's good that beauty isn't your #1 required trait, but what is? Perhaps if you consciously seek more introspective women, you might come to find them.

 

My experience has been that men are less introspective about relationships than women. Or perhaps I am wrong and they just don't speak of their introspection, I don't know.

 

@DisenchantedlyYours: I don't think it is current society that is the problem per se, when it comes to what they consider as a beautiful woman. Yes, perhaps spending millions of dollars on beauty is a new thing, but corsets, hoops, etc have existed for centuries. I'm not sure how people evolved into prizing fake beauty in women, but it definitely is something so deeply rooted that we cannot tell the average man now: Stop thinking that girl with hair extensions, lash extensions, big breasts and a surgically-reduced waist is beautiful. It's ingrained too deeply within the psyche. Sure, some men manage to get over this through rationale, but they are more the exception than the norm.

[Emilia]

Womens' (and more importantly girls') psyche depends on the approval of a dominant male. Early on, it is likely her father, and then later it would be alpha males in her peer group.

 

Beautiful girls will get positive reinforcement early on without any effort. Attention and adoration and praise, all just for existing. They must be so great! They can do whatever they want and they get positive reinforcement. Thus, little or no effort is spent on improvement of self, on personal accomplishment, and on forming the positive behaviors and traits which would produce genuine, deserved positive reinforcement from others.

 

Thus, many pretty women who are ditsy (never bothered developing their mind), mean (never bothered developing a sense of empathy) and self-absorbed (their peers say they are better than others, who are they to disagree?)

 

Some beautiful women weren't so beautiful as kids. I believe that worked to their great advantage in life.

 

These unfortunate effects of positive reinforcement due to inherent attributes ARE also present in males, but to a significantly lesser extent. Partly due to the difference in the male psyche, and partly due to the difference in looks not being NEARLY as equally prized in a male. In the male, "piggish alpha-male dominance" would be the equivalent to female beauty, producing the same kinds of positive reinforcement from peers, but the trait of "piggish, alpha-male dominance" is not inherently free of blame in the way that beauty is inherently free of blame.

 

So, then, as a society, one can conclude that the more shallow we become as a culture, the more evil and amoral our children (and especially girls/women) will become over time. Fascinating.

 

I agree. I would also add that dominance in general is positively reinforced regardless of gender. A woman will get much more respect from men in general if she is not only beautiful but displays signs of a dominant personality - without coming across as too emotional/loud (ie no shouting).

 

I think being 'nice' and 'soft' are not that valued in Western society by and large. I was thinking about this the other day after reading the 'nice guy' and the 'women should be b**ches' threads. Aggression is associated with assertiveness and achievement and those are highly valued.

[ChessPieceFace]

I agree with the majority of your post, but I do think this is just applicable to the women you know. You might want to ask yourself how you select the women you know - it's good that beauty isn't your #1 required trait, but what is? Perhaps if you consciously seek more introspective women, you might come to find them.

 

First off, it applies to almost every woman in my family. It applies to the girls I've "dated" (though they have been few and far between) and they were not selected based on looks. Lastly, it applies to most women I know through friends.

 

I didn't come up with the notion of women who just can't admit that they are wrong. If you can't admit you're wrong, how can you do proper introspection? You can't.

 

Maybe you're right, that there is technically "introspection", but what I'm trying to say is that there is little or no self-improvement when one can't address their own faults. So then it's not true introspection at all. Sorry, I have a habit of incompletely expressing my ideas.

 

What is my #1 required trait ... that's hard. I don't find it useful to try to determine a #1 since there are quite a few that are deal-breakers to me. Intelligent, pure of heart, easy to get along with, enjoys games, sexual (though not slutty), not loyally partisan in terms of politics... most of those would be required. I think I might be able to settle for 5/6 though. I've met maybe only 1 or 2 in my entire life that met 5 of those (it was not possible to date either of them for different reasons.) However, I haven't actively dated or looked that much.

 

My experience has been that men are less introspective about relationships than women. Or perhaps I am wrong and they just don't speak of their introspection, I don't know.

 

OK, I see where you're going with that. But note that you said 'about relationships.' Maybe if things are going well, men don't think about it much, and/or maybe some men really are dense and just absorbed in left-brain stuff most of the time. That makes sense.

 

Again, what I should have said was that when it comes to big problems in the relationship, or analyzing a break-up or fight, my personal experience is that many women just can't see or admit when it was due to their poor behavior or personal failings. Moreso than the men I know. It makes me sad because many girls I know would be so much happier if they could just start to honestly address their own problems instead of constantly blaming men and the world.

 

When several of my female friends ranted about men on Facebook, I've tried defusing it and indicating nicely that not all men are pigs, and that they should try to surround themselves with better quality guys. Just gotten venom in return every time.

[Shaun-Dro]

Hmm, cities like NYC have a large proportion of fit and attractive women, so I don't think that's the problem.

 

Are you saying a woman having a drink or two is a deal breaker?

 

Also, tell us a little more abut you. Are you educated? Smart? What's your body like? If you're approaching attractive women and you come across as not too bright or interesting, of course they won't be responsive. It's not that they have a bad personality, they're just not interested.

 

Obviously my writing/English language is on point so you already know the answer to that. And yes, a large number of young women here in NYC are fine and in shape, as is another great number that aren't. It's a balance.

 

I can tell you don't understand NY culture and how women are here. You have to belong to a group of frat punks in order to score the fine ladies in this city. That's a fact and proven observation by many. The good-looking dames travel in groups, seldom alone, unless she's coming from the 9 to 5 work shift. In this case, she's usually keeping up with the Rush Hour Crew.

 

It's not about being interesting. It's about whether you might be the next psychopath with a string of dead bodies behind you. Every NYC woman on the street is worrying about that before any man even opens his mouth.

[thatone]

 

But I will say this -- in general, women seem to have much less ability for introspection than men. I don't know exactly why this is, just that it is very apparent, both from the people I know personally and from people online. Part of the problem is definitely societal, where women are now told that most problems in life are the fault of men, especially problems in relationships. This programming is not accidental, and is in fact part of an over-arching plot by the powerful elite to destroy the family. (But I digress.)

 

 

you were doing pretty well until you couldn't help but throw your politics into the mix. there is no grand conspiracy. what purpose would it serve? there isn't one.

 

here's what there is...

 

a generation ago divorce became 'ok'. there were good and bad generalizations for why on both sides.

 

women made the argument that they shouldn't be punished for leaving abusive husbands. men made the argument that they shouldn't have to stay with lazy/selfish wives.

 

on the flip side, some women decided that they were owed the fun youth they missed out on while being married in their 20s, while still having the things that their husband who has to work all day provides. and some men decided that they were owed the hot 22 year old blonde that they missed in their 20s because they married the 'good girl'.

 

there is nothing political in all of that. it all boils down to this generation getting bad examples from their divorced parents of the last generation.

 

people are not strong enough to admit their faults and deal with their own issues, that's what it boils down to. both men and women idolize their divorces when dealing with the children left behind, as a way to cope with failure for themselves. as such those children grow up to see relationship problems as inconsequential, and the solution is to just throw people away and go find new ones, rather than deal with their own faults and issues.

Edited October 9, 2011 by thatone

[HeavenOrHell]

Wow, you're the definition of what 'ugly' means to me.

 

 

 

I can't agree with that. At least with the ugly girl, you can keep your eyes shut during points of interaction.

[Els]

Obviously my writing/English language is on point so you already know the answer to that.

 

Oh, OP. We sure do.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

@DisenchantedlyYours: I don't think it is current society that is the problem per se, when it comes to what they consider as a beautiful woman. Yes, perhaps spending millions of dollars on beauty is a new thing, but corsets, hoops, etc have existed for centuries.

 

I disagree with you Elswyth. Society plays a huge role in all this. There appears to be an obsessive compulsiveness in relation to both men’s and women’s relationship with beauty that’s unique to the time we live in. Yes, just as you said, through history, there were always ideals about beauty. But what is different from previous centuries compared to today is simply technology, education and our relationship with how these things are perceived. None of us lived back then to experience things first hand, but we certainly all experience beauty today and it certainly is easily an issue our society often struggles with.

 

Sure, women wore corsets in the 1800s, and a man might have had a few pictures here and there of corseted women, no argument there. But at the end of the night, that corset came off. And with all the material that young boys and men absorb through the day, they see tons of women that aren’t revealing their true selves to them. Where a man might have had a picture or two back in the day, today's men have billions of pictures of women available at his finger tips that he starts absorbing very early in life. The average age most young boys discover porn is around 11 years old. And most parents aren't truly having the right conversations they need to be. Other then the obligatory and gruff "you know porn isn't real son." To which the son nods his head but goes back dipping into a world that is going to logically form a lot of his opinions of women and sex from the get go. We've seen a huge cultural shift of how men and women deal with their sexuality, porn and technology. And it’s not just an issue with even younger generations, but with older ones as well.

 

Today's women are going under the knife to fulfill what is really, not a more "proportionate" standard of a woman's body but an unrealistic standards developed about her body. Women started shaving their bits when it became popular in porn to do so and men voiced an attraction to it.

 

As for education, we have a lot more knowledge now about what keeps us healthy. This has changed our relationship with food and our bodies. But we aren't living longer because we are more knowledgeable of food. We are living longer because medicine masks alot of problems we face. People still eat crap and our nation in general doesn’t consume as many fruits and veggies as it should. We have reached a point where obesity is epidemic and anorexia occurs in both young and older women alike. People assume skinny = healthy and over weight = unhealthy when one does not always preclude the other. The majority of our culture doesn’t have a health relationship with beauty.

 

I'm not sure how people evolved into prizing fake beauty in women, but it definitely is something so deeply rooted that we cannot tell the average man now: Stop thinking that girl with hair extensions, lash extensions, big breasts and a surgically-reduced waist is beautiful. It's ingrained too deeply within the psyche. Sure, some men manage to get over this through rationale, but they are more the exception than the norm.

 

Oh I totally disagree with that. It’s not easy but it’s possible. It requires some rewiring in the brain that can and does happen everyday of our lives. Often when it comes to porn addiction, men that ween off of it talk about how after they stayed away from porn for a while, they found that they were excited by their own partner again where before they couldn’t be.

 

This is the exact reason why we need to talk about the subject of beauty more with men and women so we are aware of what is going on. Instead of just saying “oh well” and shrugging our shoulders. For a long time no on talked about how doctored and photoshopped pictures in magazines where. People assumed what they saw was just that. That these people being photographed where of the elite beautiful people. But as that came more into light, people actually began seeing just how badly things were being misrepresented. That normal people where in magazines. That Paris Hilton, as skinny as she is, had cellulite. There are noticeable differences between men that don’t pay attention to media that targets men about women vs. men that have been inundated with it since they were young boys. Although it is harder to find now.

 

Women and men both play their part. If such ideals are to change, then women need to stop going to the extremes they do that actually puts more pressure on them. they need to stop getting the breast enhancements and botox injections. And men need to stop buying into these things as well by not telling women these things make a woman ”more” beautiful and feminine where her natural body couldn’t.

 

It’s possible to shift ideas about beauty. But it requires having some foresight into how cultural pushes unrealistic ideals in both men and women.

 

Ideas about how men and women are suppose to be are always changing. This would be no different.

[Els]

I agree with most of what you said, except for the current bit. AFAIK, in the 1800s no man in a 'civilized' nation would even consider marrying a woman who did not do the corsets and bustles, because a tiny waist and ample bottom was the hallmark of beauty in those times. EVERY single woman in Western cultures wore corsets in those times, except for very poor families. Women were prized for nothing OTHER than beauty and feminity.

 

Nowadays, we still have a ways to go but women are not required to follow restrictive beauty trends anymore if they do not want to. I never have and I had no problems getting men. And EVEN if I could not get men, I would easily be able to support myself. In the 1800s, they absolutely had to obey men's beauty ideals because they could not work.

 

We shouldn't ignore this issue, but it really is not a new or recent one. We have actually been getting better.

[AHardDaysNight]

So women get a free pass to be unattractive, but men have to:

 

1. Stay in shape

2. Be financially dependent for their woman

3. Have a good career

4. Have a good house/stability

5. Be good looking

6. Have great social skills

 

Wow. All I got to say to that is, if you expect all SIX from me, you have to expect me to expect YOU to be in shape and attractive. Otherwise, you've got no bloody reason to be picky as hell!

[Easyguy14]

Obviously my writing/English language is on point so you already know the answer to that. And yes, a large number of young women here in NYC are fine and in shape, as is another great number that aren't. It's a balance.

 

I can tell you don't understand NY culture and how women are here. You have to belong to a group of frat punks in order to score the fine ladies in this city. That's a fact and proven observation by many. The good-looking dames travel in groups, seldom alone, unless she's coming from the 9 to 5 work shift. In this case, she's usually keeping up with the Rush Hour Crew.

 

It's not about being interesting. It's about whether you might be the next psychopath with a string of dead bodies behind you. Every NYC woman on the street is worrying about that before any man even opens his mouth.

 

well I do hope no woman finds me a psycho for being in the death-dealing business for a living, but I assure you that I never leave bodies behind me

[pandagirl]

Obviously my writing/English language is on point so you already know the answer to that. And yes, a large number of young women here in NYC are fine and in shape, as is another great number that aren't. It's a balance.

 

I can tell you don't understand NY culture and how women are here. You have to belong to a group of frat punks in order to score the fine ladies in this city. That's a fact and proven observation by many. The good-looking dames travel in groups, seldom alone, unless she's coming from the 9 to 5 work shift. In this case, she's usually keeping up with the Rush Hour Crew.

 

It's not about being interesting. It's about whether you might be the next psychopath with a string of dead bodies behind you. Every NYC woman on the street is worrying about that before any man even opens his mouth.

 

Are you a troll? If you're not, I'm laughing because your views on women and specifically women in NYC are so cliche it's ridiculous.

 

I live in NYC and my girlfriends and I always laugh about how all the men in the city think they're the bees knees and deserve some rocket scientist/super model girlfriend. You are WAY too caught up on looks. And also: there are so many good looking successful women in this city! You must be looking in the wrong places.

[johnnyk]

Go look for women in South America, especially Brazil and Colombia. There's an abundance of beautiful, highly-sexual, intelligent, and down-to-earth women who are actively looking to meet guys in the US and Europe. In Brazil there are a lot more females than males, so you find a lot more single women.

 

I was in a LT/LDR with a Brazilian girl and it was great, but the distance was a pain so had to break it off. But, if you're ready to get married, then you're far better off.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I agree with most of what you said, except for the current bit. AFAIK, in the 1800s no man in a 'civilized' nation would even consider marrying a woman who did not do the corsets and bustles, because a tiny waist and ample bottom was the hallmark of beauty in those times. EVERY single woman in Western cultures wore corsets in those times, except for very poor families. Women were prized for nothing OTHER than beauty and feminity.

 

Nowadays, we still have a ways to go but women are not required to follow restrictive beauty trends anymore if they do not want to. I never have and I had no problems getting men. And EVEN if I could not get men, I would easily be able to support myself. In the 1800s, they absolutely had to obey men's beauty ideals because they could not work.

 

We shouldn't ignore this issue, but it really is not a new or recent one. We have actually been getting better.

 

I disagree that women are not required to follow restrictive beauty trends. While I understand women have more choice now-a-days, there is still a social acceptance for women to basically over work and abuse their bodies to be accepted through society. Yes a woman can support herself now but most women desire an intimate relationship with someone that has real love. And if men hold a certain standard of beauty as the epitome of it, women will still conform to it as a barginning price for wanting to be loved and accepted at the core of it.

 

I never said this was a new issue. But my point is that how we live today and social aspects that we have today, both present new issues within the argument (suck as the impact of technology on us) and obvioulsy also give way to things we don't have to deal with that they did. I however don't think it makes this issue any less important or revelent to how men and women relate to each other or the impact beauty has on all of us and how our society deals unhealthy with ideals about beauty.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

So women get a free pass to be unattractive, but men have to:

 

Not at all. Attraction is important. I just thing ideals we place on women are unrealistic.

[Els]

I disagree that women are not required to follow restrictive beauty trends. While I understand women have more choice now-a-days, there is still a social acceptance for women to basically over work and abuse their bodies to be accepted through society. Yes a woman can support herself now but most women desire an intimate relationship with someone that has real love. And if men hold a certain standard of beauty as the epitome of it, women will still conform to it as a barginning price for wanting to be loved and accepted at the core of it.

 

I never said this was a new issue. But my point is that how we live today and social aspects that we have today, both present new issues within the argument (suck as the impact of technology on us) and obvioulsy also give way to things we don't have to deal with that they did. I however don't think it makes this issue any less important or revelent to how men and women relate to each other or the impact beauty has on all of us and how our society deals unhealthy with ideals about beauty.

 

Agreed with this. I said what I did initially because your post seemed, to me at least, to hint that society has somehow 'become' like this recently due to advances in technology, etc. I simply wanted to address the fact that it is a far more deeply rooted issue than that. I feel the same way you do, but it is realistically unlikely that anything we do will change the beauty ideals of society in our lifetime. To do so would be to topple several multi-billion dollar industries such as the media, cosmetics, fashion, plastic surgery, and to challenge the very notion of what a woman's beauty means at its core. I would liken it to eradicating stupidity from society - too massive an undertaking.

[AHardDaysNight]

I take back what I wrote earlier.

 

A certain poster on here, who I always viewed as a "beautiful personality", has showed her pic. I'm not going to name her, but you all probably know who I'm talking about. She is just as beautiful on the outside as inside.

 

I also just recently friended a person on Facebook, who is sweet, kind, and also gorgeous.

 

I think a lot of men don't realize that, just because a beautiful girl rejects you, that doesn't mean that all beautiful girls will act that way. It is stereotyping at its best. Same with unattractive girls, not all of them are good and decent. Some of the most decent and good girls are physically stunning.

 

Either way, I don't need to see all the pictures of the female posters to know that the ones who are good, decent, and kind are beautiful, irregardless of what you look like on the outside!

[KathyM]

Beauty has nothing to do with personality. They are two separate things that are not tied together. There are beautiful women who are good people with good personalities, just like there are plain woman with those traits. I know women in all age ranges who are beautiful in appearance and in their personality, and you will find them in every state in the nation. The OP may not have met any in NY yet, but they are there. I've lived in several parts of the US, and traveled to many other parts of the country and parts of the world. There are all types, both good and bad, both beautiful and plain, wherever you go. Beauty and goodness are not mutually exclusive.

[AHardDaysNight]

Nice one, AHardDaysNight!

 

Are you going to take this woman on a date sometime? A loveshack romance could be on the cards. I for one would be delighted for you if it were to happen.

 

Err, she has a boyfriend, but I definitely would be up to dating someone from here, if she was single and we liked each other.

 

Like I've said before, I need to work on my personal issues before I can think of dating. I lost a few pounds...that's great. I probably need to lose another 30. I need to get my butt in the gym, I need to work on my social anxiety and awkwardness, I need to stop kicking myself and putting myself down.

 

One thing I gathered from the "Am I ugly?" thread that I posted is that nobody, except that one guy (who I suspect was a troll), called me ugly. They called me average looking, and said that I had a great smile. My therapist has also said I'm average looking, and not ugly. This just confirmed what he said, and made me realize that I have a chance at dating, because I am not physically unattractive.

 

Even that cute Facebook girl said that she likes my latest pics. And she's a skinny, cute blonde. Even the latest trolls didn't call me out for having my pic on my profile (deleted now), although they were eager to call out someone else who they deemed ugly.

 

I really am my own worst enemy. I have so much going for me, there is no need to be bitter or angry. I have the same chance that every other guy who is average looking and not a "player" has.