Affairs are outside the box

[FelicityShot]

I think the previous poster got the comparison to an open M correct by saying the difference is in the deceit. In an open M, one can have emotional and/or physical Rs outside the M, but without the deceit. So "entirely different" comes down to the deceit versus honesty and openness, right?

 

I think what is an issue depends on the people involved. Deception would be THE issue for me, as I am in an open M.

 

I don't understand you saying deceit is not always wrong, presumably in the context of an affair. When do you think it is not wrong to make your spouse believe they are in a monogamous M with a faithful partner when that is untrue?

 

When you intend to leave, and just wish to spare them hurt. Or if they would kick the living sh*t out of you or AP. Such situations don't make the deceit part of the A right, but they do make it the lesser of two evils.

 

Even in these circumstances, the deceit is often unwise, unless both APs exercise extreme discretion. Things could go wrong...

 

I actually meant deceit in general is sometimes a good thing. Rarely in an A is it wise or good in and of itself.

[MissBee]

When you intend to leave, and just wish to spare them hurt. Or if they would kick the living sh*t out of you or AP. Such situations don't make the deceit part of the A right, but they do make it the lesser of two evils.

 

Even in these circumstances, the deceit is often unwise, unless both APs exercise extreme discretion. Things could go wrong...

I actually meant deceit in general is sometimes a good thing. Rarely in an A is it wise or good in and of itself.

 

Could you elaborate on this please?

 

I have always said I don't think one has to fully disclose everything at all times in SOME scenarios. Example: someone asking me if their child is cute and I don't think so, I don't need to say so...but that is not deceit though. Deceit is a willful manipulation of the truth and concealing of certain facts for a certain end IMO and I can never see how that can be a good thing, well in interpersonal relationships that is....so when do you think it is a good thing? In fact...I wouldn't even say good...a "necessary" thing and a good thing are also quite different. Some things are necessary at a point but aren't really good...just as you've said, the better of two evils.

[FelicityShot]

Could you elaborate on this please?

 

I have always said I don't think one has to fully disclose everything at all times in SOME scenarios. Example: someone asking me if their child is cute and I don't think so, I don't need to say so...but that is not deceit though. Deceit is a willful manipulation of the truth and concealing of certain facts for a certain end IMO and I can never see how that can be a good thing, well in interpersonal relationships that is....so when do you think it is a good thing? In fact...I wouldn't even say good...a "necessary" thing and a good thing are also quite different. Some things are necessary at a point but aren't really good...just as you've said, the better of two evils.

 

For example, having two mutual friends who are going through a down patch. They both come to me with complaints about the other and for advice. I am going to play down the complaints they have about each other and accentuate the positive, in order not to damage their friendship.

 

That is not the only thing I will do. I will also point out insecurities that might be leading to poor behaviour etc. I will listen to them. I will remain silent if that's the best course.

 

Truthfully relaying the complaints would only be a bias in itself anyway. My goal is that their friendship is helped rather than hindered when they ask for my involvement.

 

I suppose most positive deceit is about diplomacy.

[Spark1111]

;

For example, having two mutual friends who are going through a down patch. They both come to me with complaints about the other and for advice. I am going to play down the complaints they have about each other and accentuate the positive, in order not to damage their friendship.

 

That is not the only thing I will do. I will also point out insecurities that might be leading to poor behaviour etc. I will listen to them. I will remain silent if that's the best course.

 

Truthfully relaying the complaints would only be a bias in itself anyway. My goal is that their friendship is helped rather than hindered when they ask for my involvement.

 

I suppose most positive deceit is about diplomacy.

 

I do not view discretion and tact, which is diplomacy, as a positive spin on deceit.

 

These two friends will have to work out their own problems and are turning to you for support. I do not see anything positively deceitful in that. Your friendship with either of them is not yet in jeapardy.

 

Are you encouraging them to speak with each other? That's being proactive while gently letting them know you really are not interested in mediating THEIR issues. They WILL have to work it out themselves, one way or another.

 

To be deceptive because one is confused, or scared of facing conflict, or unable or unwilling to find an equitable and fair resolution cannot and should not all be lumped under "I didn't want to hurt you, that is why I lied to you."

 

More likely, the deceptor did not want to face consequences; was not courageous enough to face the emotional fall out and life-changing events that followed the discovery of the lies; hoped to never get caught.

 

The first step to resolve is admitting our own truths to ourselves.

[nonamefornow]

As a former OW I can say that the A and its aftermath would not have been as painful and devastating an experience had there been an ounce of "love" involved on the part of xMM towards me.

 

I know for a fact that my xMM did not love me. Had he loved me there would not have been the horrible treatment that I (and apparently, from what I can read here on LS, many OWs) received from him during and after the affair. There would not have been the denying me, the keeping our "relationship" a secret from everyone, the disregard for MY feelings and needs, the incongruance between his words and his actions, the dishonesty about telling me I was the love of his life and then going home to BW whom he apparently dispised and hated.

Had there been any love involved, the end of the A would not have culminated in him throwing me under the bus in the most cruel way, with complete disregard of the devastation that he caused in my life.

Had there been any love for me involved, xMM would have done everything to shield me from the pain, anxiety, devastation and humiliation that resulted from my involvement with him.

 

Even my dysfunctional self is able to realize that xMM's feeling for me were anything but love.

 

Fellhard - I totally resonate with the above, exactly how I felt and still feel, yet he keeps on denying (work together, in current climate not going to change soon). Have blocked on FB but can't stop him speaking to me in work or texting me - service provider does not support (of course my responsibility as to whether or not I respond) I can't seem to help myself! Despite the fact he's still at home and what u said about complete disregard! I know he's doing all this, yet I feel compelled to respond/let him know I still care???? Why? BTW I've just had my first counselling session, maybe the next will provide answers on why I seem to care so little about myself

[NoIDidn't]

I have felt much more" addicted" to single men, when I have been single, than I ever felt with MM. That feeling is common in the beginning of love affairs, and not specifically just married affairs.And speaking as someone that worked as a therapist for many years, treating all affairs as addiction or fog, is the height of counselor stupidity. People are all individuals, there love is unique to them, and should be treated as such.

 

I specialized in drug addiction therapy, and to liken an affair to a drug addiction is ignorance. So in 20 years, I have counceled hundred of drug addicts,( and been one myself) and many people in affairs, and I can answer, they are not the same. One is expansive and reaching for life, the other is reductionist, and hoping for death.

An affair is nothing like heroin addiction.and the people who make these studies, have obviously never experienced both.

 

That's just it. The "addiction" factor is NOT limited to affairs and you and heart seem to think I'm saying. The "addiction" factor is based on the unhealthy bond created.

 

I'm glad to hear that you have experience in treating addicts. You've likely also noticed that they are far more likely to enter into an affair than those that don't have the same "issues" with addictive behaviors. Once again, though, I MUST point out that the point that I made was about the brain scans of addicts and those purported to be "in love". You may think its "ignorance", but the brain scans revealed that little tidbit, not some assumption made by a therapist that's been deemed judgmental and unhelpful by some here.

 

And thank God the people doing the studies are assumed to have experienced either - we can't have professionals that are supposed to be helping people having the very problem they were trying to fix! They are likely to just make excuses for their own behaviors and achieve something that's more like enabling than actually helping their clients.

 

Its apparently that you have created your own conclusion that's totally different than whats actually been written here. It was not said that this event (the brain scans) were only limited to people in affairs. It was said that the people were "in love" and how you've chosen to read it as addicts vs. people in affairs is quite curious.