Women, if you like a guy why do you wait for him to make the first move?

[verhrzn]

Wow I figured at least one girl here would have made a comment about why they cannot ask a guy out/make a move.

 

Instead everything is about the "kind of guy" they are into, or the other person. For a group of people who say they want assertive men, you don't seem very assertive to begin with.

 

Lots of guys have a hard time putting themselves out there. Doesn't mean they are bad guys. I have a friend whose a nuclear engineer and doesn't like to put himself out there. Easily one of the best friends I have.

 

... Um.... I did (#8 on the first page.) Mine has not so much to do with the type of guy I'm into, but how I don't feel pursuing a guy actually would get me anywhere. If anything, it would probably makes things worse for me (social disgrace and humiliation on top of rejection.)

[singlelife]

Seems like men just need to man up and get with it.

[filani]

Seems like men just need to man up and get with it.

 

Seems like Most Women just need to WOMAN UP and get with it.Seriously people ,if ladies really want equal rights then they need to take/accept the equal responsibilities that come with it . Picking and choosing when you will and won't accept the status quo is just plain hypocrisy More than anything else that's what gets us guys upset.

[dispatch3d]

... Um.... I did (#8 on the first page.) Mine has not so much to do with the type of guy I'm into, but how I don't feel pursuing a guy actually would get me anywhere. If anything, it would probably makes things worse for me (social disgrace and humiliation on top of rejection.)

 

guys face the same issues.

[Emilia]

Seems like Most Women just need to WOMAN UP and get with it.Seriously people ,if ladies really want equal rights then they need to take/accept the equal responsibilities that come with it . Picking and choosing when you will and won't accept the status quo is just plain hypocrisy More than anything else that's what gets us guys upset.

 

I don't want a boy that gets upset about having to ask women out. I want a man

[verhrzn]

guys face the same issues.

 

Yes, guys face rejection when approaching, but guys don't face the OTHER issues that women do on top of that.

 

1) A woman sends a certain message when she's the one approaching: that she's aggressive/assertive. Some guys may like this, but others (I'd wager quite a few) would see this as "masculine" behavior and be turned off by it. So by approaching, a girl actually takes a very serious risk that she's LESSENING a guy's attraction to her.

 

2) It's still not the social norm for women to approach. Breaking a social norm is VERY uncomfortable. (Try this if you don't believe me: stare at a complete stranger at a coffee shop for 10 seconds. Even if they look at you, don't look away. It's only 10 seconds, and hey the very worse outcome is that a stranger thinks you're weird, and yet it's very unnerving.)

 

3) Girls (at least the non-jerky ones) have learned how to turn a guy down without being outright mean about it. Guys, partially because culture teaches guys to be blunter and partially because they don't have the experience with turning down girls who approach them, are NOT kind. I have yet to see a guy turn down a girl who approaches him in a kind manner... They make faces, they tell the girl outright what's wrong with her ("Maybe if you lost a few pounds..."), they make idiotic comments ("Uh, no, but could I get the number of your hot friend over there?") or WORSE, agree to go out with the girl when they have absolutely no interest in her.

 

So on top of rejection, girls face a lot more challenges than men do when it comes to approaching.

 

But, hey, the point is not to actually understand what might be the struggles women face, it's just to complain because you feel that you shouldn't have to do any work right?

[aj22one]

Yes, guys face rejection when approaching, but guys don't face the OTHER issues that women do on top of that.

 

1) A woman sends a certain message when she's the one approaching: that she's aggressive/assertive. Some guys may like this, but others (I'd wager quite a few) would see this as "masculine" behavior and be turned off by it. So by approaching, a girl actually takes a very serious risk that she's LESSENING a guy's attraction to her.

 

2) It's still not the social norm for women to approach. Breaking a social norm is VERY uncomfortable. (Try this if you don't believe me: stare at a complete stranger at a coffee shop for 10 seconds. Even if they look at you, don't look away. It's only 10 seconds, and hey the very worse outcome is that a stranger thinks you're weird, and yet it's very unnerving.)

 

3) Girls (at least the non-jerky ones) have learned how to turn a guy down without being outright mean about it. Guys, partially because culture teaches guys to be blunter and partially because they don't have the experience with turning down girls who approach them, are NOT kind. I have yet to see a guy turn down a girl who approaches him in a kind manner... They make faces, they tell the girl outright what's wrong with her ("Maybe if you lost a few pounds..."), they make idiotic comments ("Uh, no, but could I get the number of your hot friend over there?") or WORSE, agree to go out with the girl when they have absolutely no interest in her.

 

So on top of rejection, girls face a lot more challenges than men do when it comes to approaching.

 

But, hey, the point is not to actually understand what might be the struggles women face, it's just to complain because you feel that you shouldn't have to do any work right?

 

Why would it be? Unless someone's trying to have a sex-change and wants to understand what women go through he's gotta worry about himself.

 

As for everything else, it takes a certain type of woman to date a shy/not outgoing guy. From the looks of most of your posts you're not that type. Which is fine, nothing wrong with it. Nobody can be everybody's type.

[dispatch3d]

Yes, guys face rejection when approaching, but guys don't face the OTHER issues that women do on top of that.

 

1) A woman sends a certain message when she's the one approaching: that she's aggressive/assertive. Some guys may like this, but others (I'd wager quite a few) would see this as "masculine" behavior and be turned off by it. So by approaching, a girl actually takes a very serious risk that she's LESSENING a guy's attraction to her.

 

2) It's still not the social norm for women to approach. Breaking a social norm is VERY uncomfortable. (Try this if you don't believe me: stare at a complete stranger at a coffee shop for 10 seconds. Even if they look at you, don't look away. It's only 10 seconds, and hey the very worse outcome is that a stranger thinks you're weird, and yet it's very unnerving.)

 

3) Girls (at least the non-jerky ones) have learned how to turn a guy down without being outright mean about it. Guys, partially because culture teaches guys to be blunter and partially because they don't have the experience with turning down girls who approach them, are NOT kind. I have yet to see a guy turn down a girl who approaches him in a kind manner... They make faces, they tell the girl outright what's wrong with her ("Maybe if you lost a few pounds..."), they make idiotic comments ("Uh, no, but could I get the number of your hot friend over there?") or WORSE, agree to go out with the girl when they have absolutely no interest in her.

 

So on top of rejection, girls face a lot more challenges than men do when it comes to approaching.

 

But, hey, the point is not to actually understand what might be the struggles women face, it's just to complain because you feel that you shouldn't have to do any work right?

 

Approaching women is hard for men too. That's why so few guys are good at it (most are terrible). Guys also deal with bitchy women, but yeah I agree guys are probably much more dense when it comes to turning down offers.

[Quiet Storm]

In my opinion, many of the shy, timid men that end up marrying the woman that pursued him, regret their choice in a wife.

 

Due to their fear of rejection and lack of effort, they will often fall in love with the outgoing, flirty and fun loving woman that approached him first.

 

At first, they feel so lucky because they finally found someone. They don't have to worry about dating, pursuing or getting rejected anymore.

 

What they don't realize is that many outgoing, flirty and "forward" women are outgoing and flirty because they need male validation and attention, and actively seek it out.

 

So there are a lot of shy, quiet guys that end up married to a woman that thrives on male attention and seeks it out any chance she gets. He ends up watching her flirt with the cable guy and mail man. At parties she is being flirty and outgoing with other men, while he's steaming in the corner trying to talk himself into believing "that's just her nature".

 

So... be careful what you wish for. There are many men that wish they would have pursued a woman they were actually interested in, instead of waiting for a woman to choose him.

 

The personality traits that allow her to be forward, flirty and aggressive aren't going to disappear when you put a ring on it.

[fortyninethousand322]

In my opinion, many of the shy, timid men that end up marrying the woman that pursued him, regret their choice in a wife.

 

Due to their fear of rejection and lack of effort, they will often fall in love with the outgoing, flirty and fun loving woman that approached him first.

 

At first, they feel so lucky because they finally found someone. They don't have to worry about dating, pursuing or getting rejected anymore.

 

What they don't realize is that many outgoing, flirty and "forward" women are outgoing and flirty because they need male validation and attention, and actively seek it out.

 

So there are a lot of shy, quiet guys that end up married to a woman that thrives on male attention and seeks it out any chance she gets. He ends up watching her flirt with the cable guy and mail man. At parties she is being flirty and outgoing with other men, while he's steaming in the corner trying to talk himself into believing "that's just her nature".

 

So... be careful what you wish for. There are many men that wish they would have pursued a woman they were actually interested in, instead of waiting for a woman to choose him.

 

The personality traits that allow her to be forward, flirty and aggressive aren't going to disappear when you put a ring on it.

 

Sounds kinda bad. But, it sure beats the alternative: life alone.

[carhill]

The personality traits that allow her to be forward, flirty and aggressive aren't going to disappear when you put a ring on it.

 

That's a really good point and I like the content of your whole post and do have one question. How do women handle a forward, flirty and aggressive man once he puts a ring on her finger? Perhaps learning from those who have 'tamed the beast' can help those men who are less 'out there'.

 

I ask because, intrinsically, men and women both have the same ability to control themselves, meaning to draw boundaries with regard to their behavior.

 

Further, topically, are women intrinsically passive/non-assertive, meaning their genetic brains are wired that way, or is it socialized into them? How do those apparent anomalies, the 'out there' women, get that way? The same for men. Are they genetically wired to 'make the first move' or is it socialization? What about the guys who haven't 'manned up'? Did their wiring short-circuit?

 

One marked group of data points I alluded to upthread are those ladies who 'let' a man pursue her and 'let' him love her. Those have been some real unhealthy personal data points. They seem to align with the OP's topic title as one potential 'why' regarding one subset of female psychology, that those individuals 'like' that a man 'makes a first move' and shows his 'like' for them. The man, as an individual, is largely irrelevant. The 'like' is the relevant part.

 

Combined with the ones who seem 'out there' and proactively interested and turn it off like a light switch, I'm caused to discontinue from the 'game' for lack of sufficient lighting. Without clarity, there's chaos. Thanks, I'll pass. Crashed one too many times from the pursuit.

 

Still, I liked the post. I think it rings true for men who are generally and/or situationally unassertive in romance, regardless of how they are in the rest of their lives. Actions and perspectives have consequences.

 

Sounds kinda bad. But, it sure beats the alternative: life alone.

 

Having lived both, TBH, at this point in life, alone is more satisfying. Everyone's perspective is unique. I wouldn't have said that 20-30 years ago, for sure.

[fortyninethousand322]

 

Having lived both, TBH, at this point in life, alone is more satisfying. Everyone's perspective is unique. I wouldn't have said that 20-30 years ago, for sure.

 

That's fair. If experience with both circumstances I might share your opinion. Being that I'm 23 and never dated any woman, aggressive or otherwise, I'm not yet ready to do that.

[verhrzn]

Sounds kinda bad. But, it sure beats the alternative: life alone.

 

Or the OTHER alternative, which IS approach women.

 

I envy guys so much. Approaching women may be hard (risking rejection always is) but at least approaching means they have a better chance with the girl than they did if they just stood there.

 

For girls, on the other hand, approaching may mean turning the guy OFF, as I've stated countless times. So on top of risking rejection, a girl is actually INCREASING her chances of rejection. So her only other alternative is to wait to be chosen, but if she's undesirable (ugly) then life alone pretty much IS all she has left.

 

I'd be an ugly guy having to approach a girl over an ugly girl approaching a guy in a heart beat. Heck, I'd be an ugly guy over an ugly girl PERIOD.

[fortyninethousand322]

Or the OTHER alternative, which IS approach women.

 

I envy guys so much. Approaching women may be hard (risking rejection always is) but at least approaching means they have a better chance with the girl than they did if they just stood there.

 

For girls, on the other hand, approaching may mean turning the guy OFF, as I've stated countless times. So on top of risking rejection, a girl is actually INCREASING her chances of rejection. So her only other alternative is to wait to be chosen, but if she's undesirable (ugly) then life alone pretty much IS all she has left.

 

I'd be an ugly guy having to approach a girl over an ugly girl approaching a guy in a heart beat. Heck, I'd be an ugly guy over an ugly girl PERIOD.

 

Meh. The problem for me is that I won't approach a woman unless I think she's interested. But, I've had enough women seem interested only to not be. So I've concluded that I have no idea how to tell if a woman is interested or not. Like honest to God, no idea. Not a clue. It's like trying to drive a car while being blind, deaf, dumb and drunk. So for me, it's not really that much of an "option".

 

I decided in lieu of approaching women in public I decided to try online dating. Which has been just as much of a failed endeavor.

 

Have that happen enough times to you and tell me you don't end up feeling like it's hopeless.

[verhrzn]

Meh. The problem for me is that I won't approach a woman unless I think she's interested. But, I've had enough women seem interested only to not be. So I've concluded that I have no idea how to tell if a woman is interested or not. Like honest to God, no idea. Not a clue. It's like trying to drive a car while being blind, deaf, dumb and drunk. So for me, it's not really that much of an "option".

 

I decided in lieu of approaching women in public I decided to try online dating. Which has been just as much of a failed endeavor.

 

Have that happen enough times to you and tell me you don't end up feeling like it's hopeless.

 

I HAVE had that happen to me. You think girls are bad about giving hints that they like you? Guys are WAY worse. They have no idea how to subtly give out hints that they're interested, so they either 1) ignore you 2) leer at you. (My experience is more the first but I've seen the second as well. And what woman wants to approach the guy who's leering and staring at her like a creep?)

 

Maybe you should just toss out the idea of "I only approach women who show they're interested," since you seem to have no sense of how women act when they're interested, and just go for girls YOU'RE interested in, regardless of if they're giving you signals or not.

[fortyninethousand322]

I HAVE had that happen to me. You think girls are bad about giving hints that they like you? Guys are WAY worse. They have no idea how to subtly give out hints that they're interested, so they either 1) ignore you 2) leer at you. (My experience is more the first but I've seen the second as well. And what woman wants to approach the guy who's leering and staring at her like a creep?)

 

Maybe you should just toss out the idea of "I only approach women who show they're interested," since you seem to have no sense of how women act when they're interested, and just go for girls YOU'RE interested in, regardless of if they're giving you signals or not.

 

Didn't you have a thread a while back complaining about guys who only wanted FWBs or something along those lines? Personally I wouldn't want a FWB, but I'd love to have that kind of "problem" because at least it meant somebody was interested in me in some way.

 

But anyway, I tend to get interested in people's personalities more than their looks, and it usually takes some time to get to know someone. I don't meet women through my social circle so I have no idea where to even begin on that. I'm not looking for a pep talk or anything, I'm just explaining to you why I'm as frustrated as I am and why I would gladly take whoever was interested (rather than someone that I uniquely picked).

[carhill]

For girls, on the other hand, approaching may mean turning the guy OFF, as I've stated countless times. So on top of risking rejection, a girl is actually INCREASING her chances of rejection.

With respect to the dynamic of a woman's approach being of itself or adding to the propensity for a man to be 'turned off', I'll offer my singular opinion, and it's an honest one. Since, in 52, it's *never* happened, not once, not even close (to being asked out on a date), I would, honestly, be suspicious. I'd have no concrete reason to be, but a lifetime of experience with women would be working on my psyche at that point, primarily the aspect of the repetitive data points of women 'letting me love them'. That was probably the most insidious of the past dynamics, far worse than even the most brutal of rejections.

 

However, that said, I think the younger guys would surprise you and not feel 'turned off'. In that sense, they're healthier than an old fart like me. Never know until you try.

[fortyninethousand322]

With respect to the dynamic of a woman's approach being of itself or adding to the propensity for a man to be 'turned off', I'll offer my singular opinion, and it's an honest one. Since, in 52, it's *never* happened, not once, not even close (to being asked out on a date), I would, honestly, be suspicious. I'd have no concrete reason to be, but a lifetime of experience with women would be working on my psyche at that point, primarily the aspect of the repetitive data points of women 'letting me love them'. That was probably the most insidious of the past dynamics, far worse than even the most brutal of rejections.

 

However, that said, I think the younger guys would surprise you and not feel 'turned off'. In that sense, they're healthier than an old fart like me. Never know until you try.

 

I'm actually closer in thought to you. It's not that I want women to ask me out or be extremely aggressive in pursuit of me (I actually do prefer to at least be able to pretend to be the pursuer) I would just like a little bit more clarity with the signals of interest. I don't want the process to feel like I'm reading the Federal tax code translated into wingdings font.

 

I've had three women in my life be more aggressive towards me than usual. One was when I was 14 (when I was overweight, had massive acne and bad dandruff) who I knew was just doing it for laughs because her friend in the class was laughing hysterically from afar; the second got extremely angry and upset when I asked her out and the third was just looking for some side action since her boyfriend was away for work. All three kind of taint my perception of aggressive women similar to your views.

[verhrzn]

Didn't you have a thread a while back complaining about guys who only wanted FWBs or something along those lines? Personally I wouldn't want a FWB, but I'd love to have that kind of "problem" because at least it meant somebody was interested in me in some way.

 

But anyway, I tend to get interested in people's personalities more than their looks, and it usually takes some time to get to know someone. I don't meet women through my social circle so I have no idea where to even begin on that. I'm not looking for a pep talk or anything, I'm just explaining to you why I'm as frustrated as I am and why I would gladly take whoever was interested (rather than someone that I uniquely picked).

 

Except an FWB isn't interested. When a guy wants to be FWB with a girl, it's essentially like the "friend zone." Guys are always complaining how girls who friend-zone them just them for emotional support and attention... Well, guys use girls in their "friend zone" for sex.

 

As numerous posters on this forum have told me, a guy wanting an FWB with me doesn't mean he is interested in me, or attracted to me or heck even LIKES me. It just means he wants sex, and there I am.

 

So if you feel like being used emotionally (I have yet to hear a guy complain that a girl only wants to have sex with him and not date him...) then by all means, let's switch.

 

And yes, it takes time to get to know someone's personality, but this all just sounds like a lot of excuses to avoid taking a chance. So if you refuse to take any sort of chance, then yes, you will end up alone forever. So there are your options: be alone forever, or ask a woman you think looks nice out on a date.

[fortyninethousand322]

And yes, it takes time to get to know someone's personality, but this all just sounds like a lot of excuses to avoid taking a chance. So if you refuse to take any sort of chance, then yes, you will end up alone forever. So there are your options: be alone forever, or ask a woman you think looks nice out on a date.

 

The bolded: yes, basically. But only because when I do take chances they don't pan out. I'd like to be able to shoot fish in a barrel for once.

 

As for ending up alone, as long as I have porn and some kind of activity or hobby to entertain myself with, I think I can live a happy life (or semi-happy at the least). It's definitely not preferable, but tolerable.

[Quiet Storm]

How do women handle a forward, flirty and aggressive man once he puts a ring on her finger? Perhaps learning from those who have 'tamed the beast' can help those men who are less 'out there'.

 

I think that many of those men can't be tamed, either. I think they just stay single or get with women who view his flirtiness as "charming" and don't feel as disrespected by it.

 

 

Further, topically, are women intrinsically passive/non-assertive, meaning their genetic brains are wired that way, or is it socialized into them? How do those apparent anomalies, the 'out there' women, get that way? The same for men. Are they genetically wired to 'make the first move' or is it socialization? What about the guys who haven't 'manned up'? Did their wiring short-circuit?

 

I do think most women are naturally more passive, however our upbringing and culture have a huge effect on that. Also temperament and personality. You will find more verbally agressive women in NYC than in Georgia, IMO, because it is more culturally acceptable. Religion can be influential, as well.

 

The "out-there" women (the ones that are not just direct, but very flirty) usually have daddy issues, IMO. They thrive on male attention, usually because they were missing it when they needed it most. It's also a way they can feel in control. Some have trauma issues from childhood, and they rely on outside validation from others instead of internal validation (confidence).

 

With men, my true feeling (flame away) is that there really are alpha males and beta males in humans. I think upbringing also plays a part, but I see many alpha and beta brothers that were raised by the same people, so I think it's more like their natural temperament. For example, when a loud noise happened as infants, my son who I think is alpha would curiously look to see what it was, while my presumably beta son would jump out of his skin.

 

Alphas have no problem approaching women, because rejection rarely hurts them. When rejected, they think "her loss" and move on to the next one. They are confident and don't take it personally. Approaching women is exciting, not something to be dreaded. They don't scare easily, and are motivated to go after what they want and are outwardly competitive.

 

Betas are more self conscious and cautious. Rejection hurts them and they take it personally. They avoid risk and play it safe, making them more trustworthy and dependable than alphas. They often are competitive in their thoughts, but not outwardly so. They are more forward thinking and less impulsive.

 

JMO, and I could very well be wrong.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Quiet Storm

[carhill]

QuietStorm, thanks for the response and I added some off-topic but relevant comments in a journal I created adjunct to this topic. Thanks for you insight

[phineas]

I've come away from this thread with some very useful info about women who drop hints instead of approaching.

 

Some women flirt with guys when their not interested.

Some women flirt with men when they are interested.

 

LOL!

 

And people wonder why some guys don't ask women out.

[Monm82]

I wish more women liked men because they're men, and stopped being obssessed with the confidence thing. No man is confident all the time, and most aren't even truly confident at all.

[musemaj11]

I wish more women liked men because they're men, and stopped being obssessed with the confidence thing. No man is confident all the time, and most aren't even truly confident at all.

Women are more interested in finding a man who meets their fantasy than a man who is actually compatible at emotional level with them.

Edited October 18, 2011 by musemaj11