Do men avoid settling as women get older?

[norajane]

When I was 19, the hot 21-25 year old girls won't even take a glance at me.

 

Why in the world would you expect them to?

 

At 19, you were just a teenager to women of 21-25. A 19 year old boy is of no interest to a "hot 21-25" year old woman.

 

You couldn't even legally drink in the US at 19, so where would you even meet these women? What did you think you had in common with a 25 year old woman?

[Woggle]

I think that in general people that peek early tend to crash really hard afterwards for men and women. When I went to my high school reunion the nerds and geeks of both genders were for the most good looking and successful while the jocks and beauty queens just looked used up.

[allina]

I feel like a lot of men are treating this thread as a way to say "women, don't you dare reject me, in just a few years you'll be old and alone." It's like may angry men think this thread is some sort of pay back for years of rejection. Looking at this situation in real, everyday life it's clear that this attempt to fear monger is a failure. I understand that rejection, especially constant rejection is hard, but the bitterness here is palpable.

[Shaun-Dro]

I disagree. I think that it is working out quite well for women who have emulated the education/career-first mode in their 20's and 30's.

 

In this economy, it is men's jobs who have suffered more. For those men who treated their partners well during the good times, they have a partner to rely on. For those who offered nothing but a paycheck or had problems with their partners being established in her own right... they are doubly hurting.

 

Which is why the guys here are complaining. It is only in the fantasy world that is online dating that these dudes with age fetishes get a shot at someone much younger... and then, they'll have to settle for the ones who don't have much if anything going on except her looks. The guys that need to troll for the young'ins aren't getting the pick of the litter either (after one factors in things OTHER than looks, that is). That's ok. Whatever works for them.

 

Technology has made it possible for women to postpone pregnancy well into their late 30's and even into their 40's. Then there is always adoption. The world is full of children who need good homes.

 

No need for women to freak out at any age and believe this ageist crap.

 

Should mention that not everyone is interested in starting a family either. It's not like the ONLY reason people pair up is to have kids. So a woman's age would be irrelevant in that case.

 

If all women can 'hope' for is some guy who wants us to be a live-in maid, nanny, and cook... who then dumps us for a younger model after we've helped build his career...

 

I'd say the better option is go for the career first and set the bar high, girlfriends...

 

This is feminist rubbish but I've come to expect it. Hopefully, no one here will pay you any mind, because I won't.

[Untouchable_Fire]

So my advice to the OP is, as a 34 year old man who is single but not at all against the idea of long term relationships, telling men what YOU want isn't going to get you much progress. Telling me you want a family and kids and all of that stuff as a defense response to the question of sex in dating is the wrong approach. I can hear a 24 year old waitress tell me what she wants whenever I choose (and immediately disregard it, for that matter). If I'm dating someone closer to my own age with a relationship in mind, I don't want to hear what you want. I want to see what you do. I want to see all my effort appreciated with thank yous and smiles. I want all my phone calls and texts answered or returned. I want to see that the attraction is mutual, and little things I do such as gifts and favors returned. I want to know that I get priority over your friends and other such unnecessary activities. If you think men in their 30s are going to chase you while you disregard them as you did in your 20s you're not going to have much luck. Physical beauty isn't enough anymore.

 

I'm 32 and I can say for sure most of this is true. In my 20's I was willing to put up with all kinds of stupid crappy behavior from the women I dated. I just didn't know any better. Most women experience this too.

 

So at our age we won't put up with crap anymore. My suggestion would be to sit down and evaluate how you come across on a date. I've had to do that several times. I found that on dates I tended to be too deadpan and I didn't really talk as much as I should. Dating is like interviewing... practice at it and you will do much better.

 

LOL Well, I'm 29 and will be 30 in a couple of months but I look 21 at MOST (and sometimes I pass for a teen) and so do many of my friends. I'm told this all the time plus the fact that I'm a quite attractive petite brunette.

I had not dated for years due to my PhD studies which I've just finished, and my father's death from cancer). But according to the answers here (I'm guessing made by men older than me No?), I might as well not bother with serious dating with men around my age anymore as it's a needle in a haystack! LOL I also wonder if Amazon stocks zimmer frames now, who knows, I may need them soon!

So I should either settle with a geriatric man or the first socially awkward hunchback of Notre Dame lookalike that comes my way! Maybe I should also start sending applications to my local nunneries see if they have any vacancies! Well, I'll be damned but real life has proven to be better this time and I have seen a lot of women my age and older start serious relationships with men their own age that lead to happy marriages!

OP: I also think it's the men you're picking and the vibe or something you say that scares them off, no matter how nonchalant it seems when a couple with kids passes by.

 

Sarcastic stops being attractive right around 30.

 

I disagree. I think that it is working out quite well for women who have emulated the education/career-first mode in their 20's and 30's.

In this economy, it is men's jobs who have suffered more. For those men who treated their partners well during the good times, they have a partner to rely on. For those who offered nothing but a paycheck or had problems with their partners being established in her own right... they are doubly hurting.

Which is why the guys here are complaining. It is only in the fantasy world that is online dating that these dudes with age fetishes get a shot at someone much younger... and then, they'll have to settle for the ones who don't have much if anything going on except her looks. The guys that need to troll for the young'ins aren't getting the pick of the litter either (after one factors in things OTHER than looks, that is). That's ok. Whatever works for them.

 

Career first women probably have the smallest dating pool of anyone on the planet. It's damn rare to see one of those ladies marry or even date a guy that doesn't make more than she does.

 

I see at least 2 in my company who are constantly chasing married guys because they won't settle for a guy who makes less.

 

On the other hand, my boss married his boss's boss.... HAHAHAHA. Let the "sleeping your way to the top" jokes begin!!

[Woggle]

Careerists who already are very alpha and aggressive tend to want a man even more alpha than her. They despise and look down upon sensitive or laid back men. The problem is that when these women get their alpha they constantly test him which either results in her emasculating him which makes her lose all attraction or constant fireworks and drama which turns her on but leaves him exhausted and on the edge of his nerves.

 

It sounds fun doesn't it guys?

[ThsAmericanLife]

This is feminist rubbish but I've come to expect it. Hopefully, no one here will pay you any mind, because I won't.

 

It isn't feminist rubbish to say that women have nothing to worry about if they pursue their goals just like men do... and have a family (or not) when it makes sense to them.

 

Besides, you don't have to pay me any mind. I've got reality on my side.

 

I have plenty of women friends who married when they were in their 30's and are happily raising their children now.... with men who share the load equally. Not neanderthals who wished we lived in cave man days (well, actually, you'd have it worse then than now... not sure if you wanna go back to those days either).

 

My own aunt had her first child when she was 38. Her second when she was 39.

 

As for me... I got my tubes tied when I was 30 when I was still married. Having children (from my own body at least) was never a goal of mine. I'd still consider adopting if my partner really wanted a family.

[ThsAmericanLife]

So my advice to the OP is, as a 34 year old man who is single but not at all against the idea of long term relationships, telling men what YOU want isn't going to get you much progress. Telling me you want a family and kids and all of that stuff as a defense response to the question of sex in dating is the wrong approach. I can hear a 24 year old waitress tell me what she wants whenever I choose (and immediately disregard it, for that matter). If I'm dating someone closer to my own age with a relationship in mind, I don't want to hear what you want. I want to see what you do. I want to see all my effort appreciated with thank yous and smiles. I want all my phone calls and texts answered or returned. I want to see that the attraction is mutual, and little things I do such as gifts and favors returned. I want to know that I get priority over your friends and other such unnecessary activities. If you think men in their 30s are going to chase you while you disregard them as you did in your 20s you're not going to have much luck. Physical beauty isn't enough anymore.

 

and I would argue that a guy's money isn't 'enough' anymore either.

 

Women expect the same things... Honesty, decency, and respect.

 

As far as priority over my friends... first, you have to prove you are my friend. Then you get priority. I'm not dropping everything in my life for guy du jour.

 

It's a progression... like everything else.

 

And I would argue that most people in their 20's are self-absorbed as hell... both men and women. For guys to come here and claim it is only women who haven't learned manners is total BS.

 

I"m thinking back to all the threads here about guys bragging about being players... and all the women they get, blah blah. Then guys who want relationships blame... whom? Women?? give me a break.

 

I don't see these same relationship oriented guys giving it back to the jerks who are actually making it more difficult for women to trust them...

 

no, they just come here and say...

 

dammit (b*tch) I'm ready for a family now so you better get on it cause your toast is getting old.

 

Seems like the focus is on the wrong place...

[Woggle]

I don't see women calling out the women who make men turn hard and become players. I have yet to meet a player who wasn't seriously hurt by a woman in his past.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Careerists who already are very alpha and aggressive tend to want a man even more alpha than her. They despise and look down upon sensitive or laid back men. The problem is that when these women get their alpha they constantly test him which either results in her emasculating him which makes her lose all attraction or constant fireworks and drama which turns her on but leaves him exhausted and on the edge of his nerves.

 

It sounds fun doesn't it guys?

 

I really wonder sometimes where you find all this junk, Woggle. Whom do you personally know (outside of your own experience) that fits this description.

 

Cause I've worked in some of the most competitive companies in the world... and own my own business now. I could give you a LONG list of women who are quite high up in those companies who are very happily married. Not many women, for sure, but nearly all of them ARE married... and to men who (from the outside at least) have less 'prestigious' jobs than them.

 

I'll use my own example... when I met my now ex-H, he made less than me. That didn't bother him. 10 years later when we divorced (after cheating on me, BTW), he was making nearly double my salary. I'd like to think it was thanks in part to my support that he did well. He was an ungrateful, SOB. Not making that mistake again...

 

My now-dead fiancee never finished college. When I met him, he was nearly bankrupt and putting his life together after a divorce. During the subsequent 5 years we were together, he won 3 Emmys. I'd like to think due in part to my support. He seemed to think so as well. So do his kids, whom I still keep in touch with 5 years after his death.

 

One of my best friends was the former CIO of a large multi-national company. Her husband of 30 years works as a surveyor.

 

Another woman I know is a direct report to the president of the research arm of same company... her husband is a school teacher and they have four children. All boys. Married close to 20 years.

 

So think about this... most of the men I know who have less education than me SELF SELECT because of their own insecurities. Not the other way around.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I don't see women calling out the women who make men turn hard and become players. I have yet to meet a player who wasn't seriously hurt by a woman in his past.

 

Really? You didn't see me give a certain poster the riot act on her thread for stringing along her young lover?

 

Me-thinks you choose to see what you want to see...

 

In any case, the above is still no excuse not to do your part to 'mentor' other men if you are serious about wanting things to change.

[Woggle]

I know plenty of successful women who have great marriages as well. Not all successful women fit this description but I see it many times. The women you talk about can find that right balance between careerist and loving partner and don't view the latter as being beneath them. There are plenty of successful women who have great marriages.

 

On the other hand I know a good number of women who are the female versions of those sleazy 80s business men. They are just as ruthless and lack of scruples and they only respect men who are worse than they are then complain how all men are threatened by their independence. I had a FWB kind of relationship with one of them and she had utter contempt for men who didn't have the balls to put her in her place.

[Woggle]

Really? You didn't see me give a certain poster the riot act on her thread for stringing along her young lover?

 

Me-thinks you choose to see what you want to see...

 

In any case, the above is still no excuse not to do your part to 'mentor' other men if you are serious about wanting things to change.

 

If we want things to change women have to do their part as well. It is not all one sided like some women would like to believe.

 

The funny thing is I know who you are talking about and I see nothing wrong with her actions.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I know plenty of successful women who have great marriages as well. Not all successful women fit this description but I see it many times. The women you talk about can find that right balance between careerist and loving partner and don't view the latter as being beneath them. There are plenty of successful women who have great marriages.

 

On the other hand I know a good number of women who are the female versions of those sleazy 80s business men. They are just as ruthless and lack of scruples and they only respect men who are worse than they are then complain how all men are threatened by their independence. I had a FWB kind of relationship with one of them and she had utter contempt for men who didn't have the balls to put her in her place.

 

Well, great. Then we can get back to talking about what makes healthy relationships... and stop focusing on 'men this and women that.'

 

Ready whenever you are

 

... and about bad behavior from women that make men into players...

 

This is a function of the multi-dating, FWB, hook-up culture. Women behave badly. Men behave badly.

 

The ones who legitimately want relationships are caught in the middle.

 

We just need to avoid the confused ones doing that 'other' stuff. Seems easy enough.

[soserious1]

I don't see women calling out the women who make men turn hard and become players. I have yet to meet a player who wasn't seriously hurt by a woman in his past.

 

You don't see it because most adults understand that short of situations where another person has a gun to their heads nobody can "make" another person do anything.

 

My marriage sucked, my divorce was a nightmare, yet my ex hasn't "made" me hard, after reviewing the lessons I learned during that relationship I have actively chosen to conduct my intimate affairs far differently going forward. My life, my choices

not anything I've been turned into or forced to do.

[ThsAmericanLife]

If we want things to change women have to do their part as well. It is not all one sided like some women would like to believe.

 

The funny thing is I know who you are talking about and I see nothing wrong with her actions.

 

See... that I find that very interesting... I fully agree with you on the top part, but totally disagree on the bottom part.

 

Consider for a moment the reaction she would get if roles were reversed... if she (he) came here bragging about how her (his) FWB really wanted a relationship, but she (he) was just interested in him (her) for sex.

 

.... and after dumping him (her) before (and getting no drama in the past, BTW)... she (he) strings him (her) along for another who-knows-how-long... then brags about him (her) 'begging' for a relationship and then getting angry about being dumped.

 

Think about it long and hard... and ask yourself if she isn't engaging in the exact behavior that makes men hard (and NOT in a good way).

 

If you think what she was doing was ok... all that means is that you agree that all men what is sex and he got what he deserved.

 

I think the opposite. I think she is quite cold-hearted and maybe even cruel... despite her nicey-nice posts here.

 

Read between the lines, my friend.

[fortyninethousand322]

 

... and about bad behavior from women that make men into players...

 

This is a function of the multi-dating, FWB, hook-up culture. Women behave badly. Men behave badly.

 

The ones who legitimately want relationships are caught in the middle.

 

We just need to avoid the confused ones doing that 'other' stuff. Seems easy enough.

 

That's what I've been saying for a long time. I don't view it as a gender thing just a "society is screwed" thing.

 

As an aside, I took a quick peek around Okcupid for women aged 28-36 (I'm 23 so a little older than me). There were some real good looking women in that age group, far from "used up" or any nonsense that people have been saying. As usual, I had quite a bit in common with them. Too bad they were all looking for guys their own age.

[Woggle]

See... that I find that very interesting... I fully agree with you on the top part, but totally disagree on the bottom part.

 

Consider for a moment the reaction she would get if roles were reversed... if she (he) came here bragging about how her (his) FWB really wanted a relationship, but she (he) was just interested in him (her) for sex.

 

.... and after dumping him (her) before (and getting no drama in the past, BTW)... she (he) strings him (her) along for another who-knows-how-long... then brags about him (her) 'begging' for a relationship and then getting angry about being dumped.

 

Think about it long and hard... and ask yourself if she isn't engaging in the exact behavior that makes men hard (and NOT in a good way).

 

If you think what she was doing was ok... all that means is that you agree that all men what is sex and he got what he deserved.

 

I think the opposite. I think she is quite cold-hearted and maybe even cruel... despite her nicey-nice posts here.

 

Read between the lines, my friend.

 

I think that FWB situations sound good in theory but usually end up big messes but at the end she was 100% honest from the start. She didn't lie to him and tell him she wanted different than what she really did. She didn't treat him like crap then make herself out to be the victim and she never cheated on him. In the end he turned out to be a psycho who threatened her family.

 

Look at the divorce and separation or the infidelity forums and there you will see the kind of stuff that makes men hard and not care about how they use women. Look at the men who were good husbands and good fathers yet were cheated on and thrown out like garbage then raked over the coals in divorce court. Don't use a psycho who threatened a woman who was 100% honest with him as an example of a male victim.

[silvermercy]

Sarcastic stops being attractive right around 30.

And intelligence and charm stops around whatever age you are I suppose...

[ThsAmericanLife]

I think that FWB situations sound good in theory but usually end up big messes but at the end she was 100% honest from the start. She didn't lie to him and tell him she wanted different than what she really did. She didn't treat him like crap then make herself out to be the victim and she never cheated on him. In the end he turned out to be a psycho who threatened her family.

 

Look at the divorce and separation or the infidelity forums and there you will see the kind of stuff that makes men hard and not care about how they use women. Look at the men who were good husbands and good fathers yet were cheated on and thrown out like garbage then raked over the coals in divorce court. Don't use a psycho who threatened a woman who was 100% honest with him as an example of a male victim.

 

Well, I guess that would be ONE interpretation...

 

She broke up with him before when he got too serious, and I don't recall any drama ensuing.

 

The second time was the stringing along part.

 

What I just LOVE (sarcasm) about people who do FWB is the air of 'plausible deniability'. One day they are going on about how great things are... the next day it is 'well, I warned him that all I cared about was sex'.

 

Hogwash.

 

... and there was nothing I saw on her posts that indicated he was anything close to being a psycho or 'threatening' her family. Not one bit. Just a bunch of stuff she had to say to justify dumping him before he dumped her because she couldn't commit. He'll learn next time just to walk away. Or become 'hard' and assume all women are commitment phobes like the men on this thread apparently have assumed.

 

IMHO, she's the one to watch out for... not the other way around.

 

What I find even more interesting, Woggle, are how many people are drawn in by 'seductive' people of either gender. Her stories certainly sounded inviting, didn't they? (Cue 70's porno music)... A life awash with unencumbered sensuality and 'fun'.

 

Not so fun for him, was it?

[Woggle]

He told her she knows where her family lives. That is not threatening to you? Her and I have clashed on things but I see nothing wrong with this. I had a FWB after my divorce and she tried to play the victim act as well while I was totally honest with her.

[ThsAmericanLife]

He told her she knows where her family lives. That is not threatening to you? Her and I have clashed on things but I see nothing wrong with this. I had a FWB after my divorce and she tried to play the victim act as well while I was totally honest with her.

 

Not exactly. He said he wanted to 'talk to her family'. Big difference.

 

He got mad and kicked over a trash can and 'insulted' her.

 

ooooo! I'm SOOO afraid!!

 

My gripe with her was that he'd been pressing for a relationship with her for quite some time... If she was not up for a relationship, she was obliged to end it and not leave the impression she was in favor of that. Nope.

 

She was happily riding both sides of that fence and stringing him along as long as possible. When she sensed he was getting ready to dump her, she did a pre-emptive dump. AND, even worse... came here and ridiculed him and made him out to be a psycho so that people like you could feel 'sorry' for her.

 

Unless there is some other information that came out later (like she asked for NC and he wouldn't go away) or something along those lines, I'm sticking with my original impression.

 

I don't know your story with the FWB. If you did the same thing as the other poster I just mentioned, I'd argue your 'friend' would have reason to be upset.

 

People are welcome to renegotiate the 'rules' at any time. FWB or not. If you (or the other poster) leaves the impression that the 'rules' have been renegotiated... intentionally or by omission... then the onus is on YOU. Not the one trying to renegotiate.

 

But this is exactly why I don't do FWB. To many confused people doing f-ed up things.

[soserious1]

I think that FWB situations sound good in theory but usually end up big messes but at the end she was 100% honest from the start. She didn't lie to him and tell him she wanted different than what she really did. She didn't treat him like crap then make herself out to be the victim and she never cheated on him. In the end he turned out to be a psycho who threatened her family.

 

Look at the divorce and separation or the infidelity forums and there you will see the kind of stuff that makes men hard and not care about how they use women. Look at the men who were good husbands and good fathers yet were cheated on and thrown out like garbage then raked over the coals in divorce court. Don't use a psycho who threatened a woman who was 100% honest with him as an example of a male victim.

 

 

And on the flip side you have women frequently left high and dry, left with sole responsibility for the care of dependent kids after a marriage goes sour. Children are the largest group of people living in poverty in this country,though the court might order child support a not insignificant number of custodial parents have great trouble collecting even partial payments & often a non-residential parent takes on zero direct parenting responsibilities after a divorce.

 

If a woman marries & has kids young, before she's completed her education, before she's got a solid career going, she's placing herself and her offspring at serious risk of being mired in poverty should the marriage end.

 

The traditional ideal of the 35 yr old guy marrying the nubile sweet young thang who's going to quit her job to pop out kids, clean, cook and care take sounds wonderful to a lot of guys till divorce time comes, then she's an evil, gold digging biatch who's not entitled to a thin dime. Even very conservative states are revising their alimony laws, lifetime alimony is awarded to very few women, after being married for 10, 15, 20 years being told one has 2-4 years to get an education & get a salary that's enough to live on is like a nightmare.. stay at home spouses in this position can never recover & earn anywhere close to what they'd have earned if they'd developed those high power careers that many men here seem to resent them for having.

 

My advice to young women? it's the same as it is for young men, pursue a course of study in a field that you love, get a career started, travel, date, become a fully adult person capable of caring totally for yourself before you become a spouse or a parent.

[allina]

I don't see women calling out the women who make men turn hard and become players. I have yet to meet a player who wasn't seriously hurt by a woman in his past.

 

I don't believe that people "make" others a certain way. I just don't believe in these blame games. Personally, I don't want a man who is emotionally weak enough to change his course due to a hurtful breakup.

 

I have called out women on this forum for nonsensical behavior plenty of times. I have a low bullsh*t tolerance level that applies to both genders.

[Woggle]

Women initiate 75% of divorces and most of them are because they got bored or wanted to find themselves. If they want that then fine but don't expect the man to still play the husband role after she decides to toss him in the trash.

 

For a woman that is left by a man who traded her in for a younger model or is being abused they have all sympathy but if she is just bored or lost that spark she should be on her own.