Do men avoid settling as women get older?

[Shaun-Dro]

The attitudes on LS from the men can be so horrible, in that you view women as trophies, objects and pretty much anything besides human beings. Young women are attractive. Older women are garbage. It's seriously disturbed and disturbing and not surprising that none of you have viable relationships.

 

While I don't expect that any of you run out and get married, I look at my marriage and what happened. We met, treated each other very well, fell in love, got engaged, set the wedding date, had plans for the wedding, only to get unexpectedly pregnant early and ended up quasi-eloping in a rush. I can imagine what you gents would think about this, in that the judgment would be "oh, that sucks" with all the negativity displayed within this thread. Instead, we were excited about it, even though I personally didn't want a baby so soon, wanting to wait a number of years post wedding. My husband wanted children ASAP so of course he was very happy because of our accident.

 

Next "bad" thing to happen was that in the third trimester, I ended up with placenta previa where I was bed ridden for the last trimester. Instead of my husband being negative and nasty about it (where I imagine some of you might since oh noes, old mother should not have babies, he fully supported me through this last trimester, sometimes a bit stressed but overall, he worked hard to be a great husband). We ended up with a beautiful baby boy who is our pride and joy, the crown jewel in our lives.

 

After our baby reached a year, we decided to have another and got pregnant after a few months of trying. Unfortunately, I miscarried a month ago. We were both pretty torn up about it and still are. But we emotionally supported each other through this, as people and partners. I can imagine the judgments in this thread again about old mothers and not being able to have healthy babies easily.

 

And yet through all of this, we continue to grow closer, building on our love and family, leaning on each other in our times of need. Two PEOPLE who love each other.

 

So if you gents want healthy relationships, lay down your arms, forget the silly power struggles, the unhealthy egos, all that crap and start looking for a PERSON who you're compatible with, who you love and who will love you back equally, as a PERSON.

 

/end old lady rant

 

Yea, sure, whatever, but she still has to look good: great body and pretty face to boot. Those are the rules and they aren't changing!

[dasein]

fair minded woman

 

Good one

[Sanman]

 

So my original statement is correct. Men with good prospects are looking for women, in the same generation, with the same prospects, as they are for equal partnerships, which as a result widen the economic gap and makes it harder for regular guys who are poorer who think they should get good looking 20 year olds as wives to pop out kids. Sinec wages will continue to be depressed, it is unlikely that men who were born in lower socio-economic status can increase their odds of marrying someone young and hot, by increasing their financies to attract the young and fertile like before. This also explains why some poorer women are also not marrying since poor guys do not want to commit to them.

 

Well, yes and no. It is not as if education and looks are completely intertwined. I have dated many attractive and intelligent women. However, the pretty girl with the college degree and job in finance/marketing will still have more options than an average looking doctor/lawyer. The difference here is that the good looking waitress may have a reduced dating pool. Thus, the average guy may have a shot with the good looking waitress while the good looking professional woman may get the most eligible professional men.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Sanman

[threebyfate]

What's disturbing is the continual contortion of the simple fact that women generally lose sex appeal as they age, a completely noncontroversial statement of biological fact devoid of any material gender-sensitive content, into utterly polarized mischaracterizations such as "Young women are attractive. Older women are garbage." The level of straw manning that female posters engage in here on LS would make a scarecrow blush.

Only if you're an escapist male, looking for a partner to compensate for your own signs of aging. That's a noncontroversial statement of biological fact devoid of any gender sensitive content.

 

See, two can play at the ridiculous and state it as fact.

 

Like I said, it's no surprise that compensatory superficiality crashes and burns when it comes time to match up for healthy and honest relationships.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

dasein

Forgive us, but THAT particular list is not hard to find. It is spewed out in hundreds of thousands of media and other messages each and every day emanating from magazines, movies, television, the internet everywhere men turn we are hammered and bombarded...incessantly... with messages of how we are lacking in not dododododododo-ing enough, ever more and more and more, for women.

 

I totally agree that men get numerous messages about who they are suppose and who they aren't suppose to be. Women get those same messages Dasein. Some of those messages prevelant in this very thread about a woman's worth. Whether they are directed toward men or woman, they are important to talk about, acknowledge and try to understand the other gender instead of just holding them in contempt. It requires both sides to come together for that to happen.

 

If we aren't being told how lacking we are, we are being told how -bad- we are, that the tiniest fraction of bad men, abusers, exploiters, the violent, are actually representative of our entire gender. We get tired of being told how monumentally lacking and evil we are as a gender, and eventually, just start ignoring it or backlashing against it.

 

I'm tired of being told how worthless I am as a woman if I don't look like a media defined images of beautiful prescribed by what titilates men. Or because I get older. You got to work with us...women...instead of working against us. And women have to do the same.

 

OTOH, any time a man expresses or even implies that women should change their behavior, behave more responsibly, consistently, take accountability for the consequences of their actions, implies that life is full of choices that preclude "have it all" thinking? Well Katy bar the door! Some MR. MAN somewhere has implied that women as a gender aren't completely perfect in every way. We just can't have that.

 

Responsibility, consistencey, accountability are things both genders struggle with. I would agree that women need to listen to men more and listen to the things that are important to them. Listen to how they want to be treated and what's going on in them. But women need the same from men as well. And I don't really feel like men are any better at these things then women are.

 

Women are aware they aren't perfect. We struggle with the same feelings of our inadequacies that men do even if there reasons are different. Both genders put on fronts so they don't show those vulnerablities. It's hard to be vunerable with the gender you feel holds you to standards you can't meet. And at the end of the day, both men and women want to not only meet their own standards for themselves, but they also want to be able to be meet the standards of the people that love them.

 

Women can't win with men if we are told that all we are are just decomposing bodies to men.

[dasein]

Only if you're an escapist male, looking for a partner to compensate for your own signs of aging. That's a noncontroversial statement of biological fact devoid of any gender sensitive content.

 

See, two can play at the ridiculous and state it as fact.

 

Like I said, it's no surprise that compensatory superficiality crashes and burns when it comes time to match up for healthy and honest relationships.

 

As previously stated, I actually prefer women my own age. You conveniently skipped how the statement "Women lose sex appeal as they age" equates to "Older women are garbage," so you are still swimming in straw.

[threebyfate]

As previously stated, I actually prefer women my own age. You conveniently skipped how the statement "Women lose sex appeal as they age" equates to "Older women are garbage," so you are still swimming in straw.

Considering how the original statement wasn't directed specifically at you, I'm uncertain why you would have taken umbrage at it enough to have responded with an inaccurate statement of fact.

[Woggle]

I do agree that life would be much better if men and women worked together instead of seeing each other as the enemy but sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe the next generation growing up will change things but things are just too bad and there is too much bitterness for things to change right now.

[dasein]

Women get those same messages Dasein.

 

Not in the world I live in. The messages women are bombarded with are twofold with some variants, "you are perfect," and "you are a victim of men, men (white ones) are a continuing threat to you and your children."

 

Paraphrasing Sanman, if you believe that statements about women's lessening sexual attractiveness as they age equate to statments of general "worth" about women, then perhaps you need to redefine your own axes of self-worth.

 

I'm tired of being told how worthless I am as a woman if I don't look like a media defined images of beautiful prescribed by what titilates men.

 

Who is telling you that? What or whom is telling any woman that? If you necessarily equate youth and sexual attractiveness with worth, that's your problem if mere biological facts affect your outlook so.

 

Women are aware they aren't perfect.

 

Then why is it that almost no women here on LS ever take an evenminded, nonpolar position, a position that doesn't blithely shift all blame onto men? I see men here constantly acknowledging the typical, general faults of men, women doing the same? Ha. You do it yourself above. Do you really think it's men (straight ones anyway) who are primarily responsible for outrageous standards of cosmetically enhanced beauty? or is it more fueled by women's own vanity in being susceptible to fashion trends and marketing messages?

 

Women can't win with men if we are told that all we are are just decomposing bodies to men.

 

We are all just decomposing bodies, no escaping that unfortunately.

[dasein]

Considering how the original statement wasn't directed specifically at you, I'm uncertain why you would have taken umbrage at it enough to have responded with an inaccurate statement of fact.

 

Since when is something in a thread not being directed at me supposed to be some kind of restraint on me ranting? Sorry, no. I don't really take umbrage at much here, but do notice that women say the darndest things, and just as in real life, are rarely called on the absurdities that come out of their mouths. I lived like that for decades. No more.

 

Ever just think of modifying the obvious straw man instead of clinging to it? You know as well as I do that stating "women get less sexually attractive with age" is a far stretch from "older women are garbage."

[Disenchantedly Yours]

dasein

Not in the world I live in. The messages women are bombarded with are twofold with some variants, "you are perfect," and "you are a victim of men, men (white ones) are a continuing threat to you and your children."

 

Start a thread and ask the women if the messages they are bombarded with in the media are "you are perfect". I'm telling you as a woman, that's about as far from the message I get that I ever heard. The messag I get is that everything I am as a real normal average girl are all the things I need to change, reshape and rework through exercise, surgery and product purchasing to be more of the kind of women society want me to be so men are attracted enough to me to even talk to me. If you want me and other women to listen to you and accept what you say has been your experience about messages you receive about men, as a man, then have the insight to recipocate that back to women and give them what you desire to see come from women.

 

 

Paraphrasing Sanman, if you believe that statements about women's lessening sexual attractiveness as they age equate to statments of general "worth" about women, then perhaps you need to redefine your own axes of self-worth.

 

If men see themselves as only getting better with age and women as getting worse, that speaks mountains about how men preceive female worth. No matter her age. Naturally, it also speaks about how men perceive their own worth as well. Which clearly the preceive their own worth to be greater of that over women.

 

Who is telling you that? What or whom is telling any woman that? If you necessarily equate youth and sexual attractiveness with worth, that's your problem if mere biological facts affect your outlook so.

 

Wake up Dasin. Who is telling women that? Society. Men. Other women. This thread is chalked full of men telling women about their lack of worth. Many with glee and meaniness in their hearts.

 

It doesn't escape me that you have a huge issues with social projections of men and contributions from women made toward those social projections but you can't find a space in your mind or heart to consider the social projections placed on women. Instead you fall back on, "that's *your* problem.." comment.

 

And if this was about biological facts, then we wouldn't just be talking about women. Because biologically, both young women AND young men are the most viable partners. This is why this issue isn't about biology. It's about puting women under heel.

 

 

Then why is it that almost no women here on LS ever take an evenminded, nonpolar position, a position that doesn't blithely shift all blame onto men? I see men here constantly acknowledging the typical, general faults of men, women doing the same? Ha.

 

Bullcrap. What I see is both men and women not being able to get real with each other on this board and be honest and be vunerable because of all the attackign and anger. So instead of having the deeper kind of conversations we could be having BOTH genders take on the offensive. It's easier to see what the other gender is doing wrong then what you may be doing wrong. And both sides do it. Even you Dasin.

 

 

You do it yourself above. Do you really think it's men (straight ones anyway) who are primarily responsible for outrageous standards of cosmetically enhanced beauty? or is it more fueled by women's own vanity in being susceptible to fashion trends and marketing messages?

 

You know what is so ignorant about your post? The fact that "you do it yourself" is a response to my post where I have said the exact opposite and acknowledge that women need to work on things just as much as men do.

 

It also ignores all the posts I have on here giving advice to men about what I see are troublesome women. So don't you dare tell me a lie about myself and try to say it's truth.

 

You could have asked your question without making preconcieved notions about what I think. So now let me answer your question. No, I do not think men are entirely responsible for outrageous standards of cosmetically enhanced beauty. And neither do I think it is *more* fueled by women's own "vantiy" in being susceptible to fashion trends and marketing messages. Women get broad sided from both sides. From what men wish us to be and how men wish us to look from how the fasion industry prays on a woman's desire to express herself through her fashion. I would totally agree that women themselves get too caught up in these messages and go to extremes to fit into both ideals. If so many women didn't get breast implants, it would be be an issue. But if so many men weren't day in and day out spending time looking at 18 year olds in porn, women wouldn't feel like they had to conform so heavily to media standards about themselves. What you fail to understand is that this isn't an issue of who is "primarily" at fault. that's just more finger pointing and blaming and it gets us no where. This is an issue about how both men and women contribute equally to a bigger issue in different ways and acknowleding how your gender contributes and working on that for the betterment of relationships for all of us. The genders play off of one another.

[musemaj11]

No I don’t feel empathetic to a lot of men on this board, especially with the kind of disgust that men have for women in which they hardly have shown sympathy in kind to women.

Why should we sympathize with women when we dont even sympathize with men?

 

We said that we accept that men are judged by their financial and social status while women are judged by their youth and beauty. WE ARE NOT SYMPATHIZING WITH ANYONE. We are just stating facts.

Most women married up 50 years ago precisely because they did not have the kind of rights and economic capital and choices that they have today.

Learn to read please.

 

I said more women TODAY marry up than it was 50 years ago.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8237298/What-women-really-want-to-marry-a-rich-man.html

 

Modern trends now have shown that men and women who are college educated and up tend to marry each other in far greater numbers, since both partners are seeking equal partnerships.

Because the newer generation of men have learned that marrying economic equal minimizes the chance of getting taken to the cleaners in the case of the marriage breaking down.

 

So my original statement is correct. Men with good prospects are looking for women, in the same generation, with the same prospects, as they are for equal partnerships, which as a result widen the economic gap and makes it harder for regular guys who are poorer who think they should get good looking 20 year olds as wives to pop out kids. Sinec wages will continue to be depressed, it is unlikely that men who were born in lower socio-economic status can increase their odds of marrying someone young and hot, by increasing their financies to attract the young and fertile like before.

That thinking is so riddled with faulty logic.

 

The fact that rich men today are preferring rich women as well means that rich men are no longer hoarding all the hottest women like in the past and there is more of them left for the men of lower socio-economic level.

 

This also explains why some poorer women are also not marrying since poor guys do not want to commit to them.

Why won't poor guys commit to poor women? Thats just stupid. Men judge women by their youth and beauty first and financial status second.

 

Still, the unfiltered honesty is refreshing because as has been stated before, men see women for only three things, looks, babies, and youth. So I am not "crying a river over it" nor do I want any kind of faux sympathy from anyone here. I am working on ensuring that my life has enough meaning where these "cold hard truths" are not going to make my life horrible and that I do not loathe myself because I am supposedly old, ugly, used, and dried up.

Why are you women so whiny?

 

For thousands of years men have understood that they are first and foremost workhorses and walking wallets. Thats a cold hard truth for men. But they are not whining and expecting sympathy for it. In fact, as Freud said it, the desire to acquire a desirable mate was what created civilizations because it drove men to be successful.

[Shaun-Dro]

I do agree that life would be much better if men and women worked together instead of seeing each other as the enemy but sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe the next generation growing up will change things but things are just too bad and there is too much bitterness for things to change right now.

 

He's right. Have any of you women bothered to turn on the news? There's a war out there between men and women. The battle of the sexes.

[norajane]

I do agree that life would be much better if men and women worked together instead of seeing each other as the enemy but sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe the next generation growing up will change things but things are just too bad and there is too much bitterness for things to change right now.

 

Men and women do work together, and are a team instead of enemies, in all the good marriages. In fact, that is what makes their marriages good.

 

The fact that rich men today are preferring rich women as well means that rich men are no longer hoarding all the hottest women like in the past and there is more of them left for the men of lower socio-economic level.

 

[Woggle]

Just look at any article regarding gender issues and look at the comments. It shows what a state gender relations are in now.

[Woggle]

Men and women do work together, and are a team instead of enemies, in all the good marriages. In fact, that is what makes their marriages good.

 

 

 

 

And how many good marriages are there these days?

[Pyro]

Just look at any article regarding gender issues and look at the comments. It shows what a state gender relations are in now.

 

only a naive fool would take those articles seriously to the point that they believe that the comments represent the majority.

[norajane]

And how many good marriages are there these days?

 

Enough to say there are men and women who do not see each other as enemies, but as a team. And enough to know that this is something we each can and should strive for in our own lives.

 

I believe that you and your wife are striving for that in your own marriage, are you not?

[Woggle]

Enough to say there are men and women who do not see each other as enemies, but as a team. And enough to know that this is something we each can and should strive for in our own lives.

 

I believe that you and your wife are striving for that in your own marriage, are you not?

 

We have a great marriage and we also have great jobs and are doing very well economically. We are going the opposite way of the rest of the country.

[Sanman]

You could have asked your question without making preconcieved notions about what I think. So now let me answer your question. No, I do not think men are entirely responsible for outrageous standards of cosmetically enhanced beauty. And neither do I think it is *more* fueled by women's own "vantiy" in being susceptible to fashion trends and marketing messages. Women get broad sided from both sides. From what men wish us to be and how men wish us to look from how the fasion industry prays on a woman's desire to express herself through her fashion. I would totally agree that women themselves get too caught up in these messages and go to extremes to fit into both ideals. If so many women didn't get breast implants, it would be be an issue. But if so many men weren't day in and day out spending time looking at 18 year olds in porn, women wouldn't feel like they had to conform so heavily to media standards about themselves. What you fail to understand is that this isn't an issue of who is "primarily" at fault. that's just more finger pointing and blaming and it gets us no where. This is an issue about how both men and women contribute equally to a bigger issue in different ways and acknowleding how your gender contributes and working on that for the betterment of relationships for all of us. The genders play off of one another.

 

See, the issue here is that the entire premise of your argument requires the the belief that such thinking about beauty is wrong and needs to be worked on an corrected. We are not arguing for change, just stating how it is now in society.

[allina]

I do agree that life would be much better if men and women worked together instead of seeing each other as the enemy but sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe the next generation growing up will change things but things are just too bad and there is too much bitterness for things to change right now.

 

Woggle, the only thing that truly bothers me about this thread is the fact that it hits this nerve with you, it's almost like it's intended to provoke you. Now, your beautiful, amazing wife is being insulted due to her age and instead of you defending her, you're again getting caught up in this fake "gender war" bullsh*t. This thread does NOT represent the average male/female relationship, but it does feel right in to your biggest fears and paranoias . I truly hope this trash doesn't have a negative impact on your marriage. Your wife is on your team, these guys are not.

 

I lived like that for decades. No more.

 

 

It's always about unresolved past issues isn't it.

 

Hmmm... you got crushed in the past and you blame every woman out there for it. Now, instead of moving on in a dignified way you've lowered yourself to this angry, pathetic state where you need to lash out at an entire gender...

[Woggle]

I am not insulting my wife and even during my worst moments you will never find any ageism from me. A good woman is a good woman at any age.

 

To be honest I can't stand most of the MRA stuff. It is certainly misogynistic but at the end of the day who else is speaking up for men? I feel torn. I don't want to be some male chauvinist pig but at the same time how else do I respond to misandrists?

 

If anything many of the men in this thread show what being betrayed by a woman you love does to a man.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

See, the issue here is that the entire premise of your argument requires the the belief that such thinking about beauty is wrong and needs to be worked on an corrected. We are not arguing for change, just stating how it is now in society.

 

Beauty is one of many things this society deals unhealthy with.

 

You can state how *you* think it is in society all you want. Clearly there are enough differeing opinions on this topic alone that tells us people view this topic on their own terms.

 

I don't care what you stand for or what you don't stand for. We aren't going to agree and I am okay with that. I wouldn't want to be a woman that lives in the world you see. I choose a different life then what you choose for yourself and for how you view women.

[Zed]

Why should we sympathize with women when we dont even sympathize with men?

 

We said that we accept that men are judged by their financial and social status while women are judged by their youth and beauty. WE ARE NOT SYMPATHIZING WITH ANYONE. We are just stating facts.

 

Learn to read please.

 

I said more women TODAY marry up than it was 50 years ago.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8237298/What-women-really-want-to-marry-a-rich-man.html

 

 

Because the newer generation of men have learned that marrying economic equal minimizes the chance of getting taken to the cleaners in the case of the marriage breaking down.

 

 

That thinking is so riddled with faulty logic.

 

The fact that rich men today are preferring rich women as well means that rich men are no longer hoarding all the hottest women like in the past and there is more of them left for the men of lower socio-economic level.

 

 

Why won't poor guys commit to poor women? Thats just stupid. Men judge women by their youth and beauty first and financial status second.

 

 

Why are you women so whiny?

 

For thousands of years men have understood that they are first and foremost workhorses and walking wallets. Thats a cold hard truth for men. But they are not whining and expecting sympathy for it. In fact, as Freud said it, the desire to acquire a desirable mate was what created civilizations because it drove men to be successful.

 

You are right. Older women are whiney and suck. You win the debate due to your superior male reading comprehension and logic. I am an idiot and women are users and weak. There is nothing more to add to this thread. Since you are the thread champion and all women, excuse me--Ameriacan women are users, and have a specific sell by date. There is really nothing more to say anymore on this topic. In all actuality it has exhausted itself. No one will change.

 

Oh there I go being an emotional, whiney, stupid, old women again. Oh well.

[Sanman]

Beauty is one of many things this society deals unhealthy with.

 

You can state how *you* think it is in society all you want. Clearly there are enough differeing opinions on this topic alone that tells us people view this topic on their own terms.

 

I don't care what you stand for or what you don't stand for. We aren't going to agree and I am okay with that. I wouldn't want to be a woman that lives in the world you see. I choose a different life then what you choose for yourself and for how you view women.

 

 

You don't believe that western culture prizes youth and beauty, especially in women? Then my spend several posts attacking the idea that such media messages are wrong?