Exposure: good for the goose...

[thomasb]

Well during your affair you had no respect for your wife, yourself or your ow.

 

 

Wrong. I had no respect for myself or the OW. My wife was innocent and has always had my respect. Which was why it ate at me until I confessed and dumped the OW.

[donnamaybe]

I totally disagree with what she did, but no one can argue that the OW in Houston told the truth about the affair. She was honest and open, right?

 

Which goes to the point - if everyone wants openness and honesty, is it "bad" for the OW to tell BS "Hey your H is having sex with me." What about "Hey, your H is having sex with me in your bed." Or "Hey, your H is having sex with me and he says your p*ssy smells like a rotten herring." Or "Hey, your H is having sex with me and he says that he only married you because he felt trapped, has never loved you, and is only there because he thinks you are emotionally abusive to the children."

 

Is there a point where "openness and honesty" goes overboard? Who gets to pick that point? If the BS would prefer honesty, would it hurt far too bad and give perpetual inner wounds to hear ALL of the truth?

Again, NOBODY is talking about the BS taking naked pictures of the parties involved and spreading them far and wide. If she had merely TOLD the BS the A existed, fine. Nobody is also talking about telling lurid details ABOUT the A. Just the fact of it's existence. Everyone already KNOWS a man is naked under his clothes.

 

Wow. Let's try to keep a perspective, shall we?

[Silly_Girl]

I totally agree. I cannot shame a person who does not ALREADY feel ashamed of their choices.

 

It doesn't work.

 

I don't agree. I think knowing you've acted against the social norm, and the potential fallout that could result, the awkward conversations, changes in friendships, all those things. I think they can be used in that manner even if the individual is ostensibly not ashamed of their choices.

[thomasb]

I disagree, the affair itself was a lack of respect to your wife.

 

That is where you are wrong again. My affair, although it certainly had impact on my wife and family, It had nothing to do with my wife, family, or marriage. It had to do with my own selfishness and lack of self control. I can never understand why the OP has to believe a married person had a bad marriage. I did not.

[Lucky_One]

Again, NOBODY is talking about the BS taking naked pictures of the parties involved and spreading them far and wide. If she had merely TOLD the BS the A existed, fine. Nobody is also talking about telling lurid details ABOUT the A. Just the fact of it's existence. Everyone already KNOWS a man is naked under his clothes.

 

Wow. Let's try to keep a perspective, shall we?

 

I'm serious, Donna. Think about it like this. OW tells BS. BS cries and confronts MM. MM, while reaching for catapult and bus schedule, says "Honey, I swear. She is delusional. She has been stalking me for ages, and I was afraid to tell you because I didn't want you to confront her and she is crazy enough to hurt you. I'm afraid for our lives."

 

You know that we have read it here over and over. The keeping of pictures and emails - proof that the EMA happened. How many times have we read "I'm going to make BS a package of stuff!" All because it can be the BS's first inclination to believe what her H says.

 

All I am saying is that there is a line, but I don't know who gets to draw it. If we say "Open and honest is the best thing for everyone", then who gets to decide where openness ends?

 

And it goes all sorts of ways. Does OW really want to hear BS tell her that MM said that it was only sex, and that the sex wasn't that good, and that he really couldn't stand the way her voice grated so that was why he left so quickly after sex? What about when BS calls OW and begs "Please tell me the truth, bc I think H is lying to me. What did he say about our marriage?"

 

Each person has their own line that they do or don't want crossed. We see BS on here who say 'I don't want to know the details," and others who say, "If I don't know the details, then my imagination is worse."

 

And what about public "outing" sites? Dontdatehimgirl, or womansavers, or cheaterville? Is this ok, to put MM and OW's names out here for the rest of the world to see, so that we can save the next "victim" from falling prey to their slick lies? Where does exposure end? Parents, siblings, children, close friends, church community, co-workers, bridge club, poker group, the internet?

[donnamaybe]

I'm serious, Donna. Think about it like this. OW tells BS. BS cries and confronts MM. MM, while reaching for catapult and bus schedule, says "Honey, I swear. She is delusional. She has been stalking me for ages, and I was afraid to tell you because I didn't want you to confront her and she is crazy enough to hurt you. I'm afraid for our lives."

 

You know that we have read it here over and over. The keeping of pictures and emails - proof that the EMA happened. How many times have we read "I'm going to make BS a package of stuff!" All because it can be the BS's first inclination to believe what her H says.

 

All I am saying is that there is a line, but I don't know who gets to draw it. If we say "Open and honest is the best thing for everyone", then who gets to decide where openness ends?

 

And it goes all sorts of ways. Does OW really want to hear BS tell her that MM said that it was only sex, and that the sex wasn't that good, and that he really couldn't stand the way her voice grated so that was why he left so quickly after sex? What about when BS calls OW and begs "Please tell me the truth, bc I think H is lying to me. What did he say about our marriage?"

 

Each person has their own line that they do or don't want crossed. We see BS on here who say 'I don't want to know the details," and others who say, "If I don't know the details, then my imagination is worse."

 

And what about public "outing" sites? Dontdatehimgirl, or womansavers, or cheaterville? Is this ok, to put MM and OW's names out here for the rest of the world to see, so that we can save the next "victim" from falling prey to their slick lies? Where does exposure end? Parents, siblings, children, close friends, church community, co-workers, bridge club, poker group, the internet?

I'm serious too. This thread was started on the premise that NOT hiding a WS's nasty behavior and keeping their vile secrets completely under wraps (protecting them) would put a HUGE straing on the BS. They don't have ONE SINGLE SHOULDER to lean on. Not one! Telling close friends and some family members so you can have a support system is a far cry from sending nasty crap to various and sundry neighbors, or cutting brake lines, or... The list could go on and on. But THAT kind of stuff is PURELY malicious. Only. No more. No less.

 

So why, oh why are we going to these dramatic lengths in what is supposed to be a discussion about how to stop all the lying and sneaking around?

[thomasb]

Trying to justify the lying and deceit of course.

[Lucky_One]

Thomas, hush; you sound like such a santimonious prig that I can't even imagine you taking your pants off with your wife. I am certainly not in favor of EMAs.

 

Donna, the thread on the premise that exposure was good for the AP, and that the AP should tell. I have only agreed with that in rare occasions. I think that exposure is typically a very bad thing for the AP.

 

I am not trying to be dramatic or pull in fantastic scenarios. You have been around here long enough to know that all of those things happen. So where should the line be drawn? Only telling family and close friends? What prevents the close friends from telling another close friend? Or for a close friend to decide that she's going to keep her best friend's H from cheating again, so she posts his pic and profile on dontdatehimgirl? At what point do we stop the exposure?

[Owl]

Actually, I have to agree with Lucky to an extent...exposure normally is a bad thing for the AP.

 

That's because it's normally done by the BS, with the express intent to end the affair and save their marriage.

 

Can it be used by an AP who has the intent to "get the A out in the open"? Certainly.

 

It doesn't garauntee that it will result in the end of the marriage and the choice to continue on with the affair partner...just as exposure by the BS doesn't garauntee that it'll end the affair and save the marriage.

 

It's a calculated risk being done from either side, with either objective.

 

I would recommend that an AP realize that they're going to have to be willing and ready to face the possible loss of the MM/MW if they pursue this route. The BS (when they do this) typically already realizes that they're in that situation...personally I felt I had nothing more to lose by doing so, but everything to gain. The same may not always be said for everyone, especially not for the AP who feels comfortable with their situation as it is.

 

But for an AP who is NOT satisfied with the situation...it may well lead to resolution...one way or another. Understand and accept that risk, and it might be a tool they could use as well.

[donnamaybe]

Thomas, hush; you sound like such a santimonious prig that I can't even imagine you taking your pants off with your wife. I am certainly not in favor of EMAs.

 

Donna, the thread on the premise that exposure was good for the AP, and that the AP should tell. I have only agreed with that in rare occasions. I think that exposure is typically a very bad thing for the AP.

 

I am not trying to be dramatic or pull in fantastic scenarios. You have been around here long enough to know that all of those things happen. So where should the line be drawn? Only telling family and close friends? What prevents the close friends from telling another close friend? Or for a close friend to decide that she's going to keep her best friend's H from cheating again, so she posts his pic and profile on dontdatehimgirl? At what point do we stop the exposure?

The thread is about exposure of the A, not exposure of the ugly, underlying nastiness of anything. Just the exposure of its existence.

 

So, yes, there can be a lot of good for the AP. I know, I know, there is the rare case where the AP doesn't WANT the MM/MW full time. But, again, they are rare indeed. For the rest, instead of hanging on what are usually empty promises, the AP can find out once and for all if the MM/MW is telling them a bunch of lies or not. Once the A is exposed, it either ends the A (if the BS insists upon it and both parties work diligently toward repairing the M) or it ends the M. Win/win.

[thomasb]

Thomas, hush; you sound like such a santimonious prig that I can't even imagine you taking your pants off with your wife. I am certainly not in favor of EMAs.

 

Donna, the thread on the premise that exposure was good for the AP, and that the AP should tell. I have only agreed with that in rare occasions. I think that exposure is typically a very bad thing for the AP.

 

I am not trying to be dramatic or pull in fantastic scenarios. You have been around here long enough to know that all of those things happen. So where should the line be drawn? Only telling family and close friends? What prevents the close friends from telling another close friend? Or for a close friend to decide that she's going to keep her best friend's H from cheating again, so she posts his pic and profile on dontdatehimgirl? At what point do we stop the exposure?

 

Hush yourself. I am free to speak here as much as you. The simple thing here is if we didn't wish our behaviors to be 'exposed', maybe we shouldn't have 'exposed' ourselves to people outside of the marriage. And sorry I'm not pining after the OW like you sound like you wish. The day I confessed was the day I stood back behind my wife in every way. That will never change. I stood by her as she told family and friends. Including OWs. And I would again.

[Silly_Girl]

Hush yourself. I am free to speak here as much as you. The simple thing here is if we didn't wish our behaviors to be 'exposed', maybe we shouldn't have 'exposed' ourselves to people outside of the marriage. And sorry I'm not pining after the OW like you sound like you wish. The day I confessed was the day I stood back behind my wife in every way. That will never change. I stood by her as she told family and friends. Including OWs. And I would again.

 

You sound proud of it.

[Spark1111]

Again, NOBODY is talking about the BS taking naked pictures of the parties involved and spreading them far and wide. If she had merely TOLD the BS the A existed, fine. Nobody is also talking about telling lurid details ABOUT the A. Just the fact of it's existence. Everyone already KNOWS a man is naked under his clothes.

 

Wow. Let's try to keep a perspective, shall we?

 

But you know what Donna? That has happened in real life and I have read some incredibly vengeful stories on LS.

 

People have committed murder and attempted suicide in the wake of discovering they have been betrayed or rejected or exposed: MAP, OW/OM, BS.

 

Doubt they post here because they are either incarcerated, institutionalized, or buried.

 

Another reason, a most excellent one, to not keep secret any relationship.

[donnamaybe]

But you know what Donna? That has happened in real life and I have read some incredibly vengeful stories on LS.

 

People have committed murder and attempted suicide in the wake of discovering they have been betrayed or rejected or exposed: MAP, OW/OM, BS.

 

Doubt they post here because they are either incarcerated, institutionalized, or buried.

 

Another reason, a most excellent one, to not keep secret any relationship.

Oh, I certainly DO know these things happen. But the way these posts were going it seemed as if folks were saying that's what this thread is telling people to do. Not at all. Simply exposing the fact of the existence of an A is a far cry from shouting the details from the rooftops or posting them on a facebook page where 300 friends can see it.

[thomasb]

Oh, I certainly DO know these things happen. But the way these posts were going it seemed as if folks were saying that's what this thread is telling people to do. Not at all. Simply exposing the fact of the existence of an A is a far cry from shouting the details from the rooftops or posting them on a facebook page where 300 friends can see it.

 

 

Precisely, my dear Watson!

[nofool4u]

My question: if Exposure is good for the BS, can it also be good for the AP? The fact is that WS' lie through their teeth to the APs about the state of their Ms.

 

Unless the lie is that the WS told the AP that they are not married, then no. Because as long as the AP knows they are married, they won't benefit from any outing of the affair. They were a willing partner and an accomplice to screwing someone else over. And if an AP knows that their "lover" is cheating, then they know the WS is a liar by default.

 

 

If the AP were to "expose" to friends and family and BS, could the following be the result?

 

1. The WS is forced to choose one way or the other.

 

possibly, unless the WS doesn't care and will continue the affair until the BS makes a move.

 

 

2. The BS, who has been in the dark, is now informed.

 

yes, and I believe this is a good outcome. everyone deserves to know if the person they are married to is a POS.

 

 

3. The AP now also has his/her own support system.

 

only to those who are birds of a feather. again unless the MM/MW lied and told them they weren't married.

 

a woman here at work outed her, who also happens to work here. those that would have otherwise had something to do with either of them would now shun them. nobody wanted to be associated with the company homewrecker or the cheating MM.

 

 

4. The AP brings a forced end to their personal hell and in some way starts the process of getting out of being an accomplice to the lies, cheating, gas lighting, etc.

 

this one is a possibility, but they could have done this whether they exposed the affair or not.

 

 

We sometimes advise APs not to expose and bring pain to the BS

 

I don't believe for a minute that this is the consideration in someone's mind if they don't want to expose, but rather protection of the MM/MW.

[Silly_Girl]

 

I don't believe for a minute that this is the consideration in someone's mind if they don't want to expose, but rather protection of the MM/MW.

 

This reads as though you don't think an AP would ever be interest in or inclined to minimise the hurt to the BS, purely for the benefit of the BS?

 

I think that happens many times. I agree it may be hard for an outsider to understand, but it certainly crops up.

[Lucky_One]

Most people wouldn't accept a simple statement of the existence. If a woman called me and told me that she was having an affair with my husband [click], and I ask him, and he says that he's not, darned straight I am going to want some details. I'd want to know longevity, depth, locations, and a whole host of other things. Those things can make a difference on my reaction.

 

And don't forget; there are 3 options after an exposure. The M ends, the EMA ends, or the M continues and so does the EMA. The heat dies down at home, and either OW or MM break NC, and the affair is back on. And I actually see that happen A LOT here.

[Capris]

I used to think that "its not my business" as the OW to inform the BS. After a thread i made , i got some answers (thanks) that brought me to my sense. Of course its good for both parties to know whats going on. If i was the one cheated on, id love to know. Im not saying though that i would end the marriage, but it would be good to know what im dealing with. Honesty IS the key to any sucsseful relationship, even between friends.

 

Now as the OW, i dont know how wise it is to be the messenger. After my unfortunate expirience, i think its still not our job to bring the news to the wife. Id prefer insisting to the MM to be honest. They never will though....

 

*edit: Maybe , if you first tell the MM that you want to tell his wife. Maybe you both do it..If he refuses or in general, during the process of revealing the truth you will actually find where you really stand in his life. If you eventually, leave his life, than maybe, (although it sounds creepy) you could inform the wife....Dunno, just thoughts.

 

On the other hand...I know a couple that the Husband cheated on the wife....I really dont want to tell her cause i am sure it was just a mistake...So come to think of it, i dont want to be involved in other peoples problems , but when it comes to my A, it sounds at least more rational...

Edited October 29, 2011 by Capris

[jwi71]

I'm serious, Donna. Think about it like this. OW tells BS. BS cries and confronts MM. MM, while reaching for catapult and bus schedule, says "Honey, I swear. She is delusional. She has been stalking me for ages, and I was afraid to tell you because I didn't want you to confront her and she is crazy enough to hurt you. I'm afraid for our lives."

 

You know that we have read it here over and over. The keeping of pictures and emails - proof that the EMA happened. How many times have we read "I'm going to make BS a package of stuff!" All because it can be the BS's first inclination to believe what her H says.

 

That's the whole love and trust thing - and a disbelief that the most trusted and closest person in the BS' life could betray them. Proof is often needed lest the WS lie and gas light the BS and "get away with it".

 

This, imo, happens in most cases. ITs so very rare that on D-day the MM bails.

 

All I am saying is that there is a line, but I don't know who gets to draw it. If we say "Open and honest is the best thing for everyone", then who gets to decide where openness ends?

 

We all individually draw the line. Various people with various perspectives will individually choose "the line" based on almost innumerable factors.

 

For instance, many OW/OM tell no one. They draw the line at zero people. Others may tell close confidantes and so on and so forth.

 

Surely this wasn't a serious question.

 

And it goes all sorts of ways. Does OW really want to hear BS tell her that MM said that it was only sex, and that the sex wasn't that good, and that he really couldn't stand the way her voice grated so that was why he left so quickly after sex? What about when BS calls OW and begs "Please tell me the truth, bc I think H is lying to me. What did he say about our marriage?"

 

We can only control ourselves - not what others do or say. If the OW does't want to hear "something" then do not allow a situation where "something" can be said. This can be as simple as never speaking to the BS to not being an OW to begin with.

 

Each person has their own line that they do or don't want crossed. We see BS on here who say 'I don't want to know the details," and others who say, "If I don't know the details, then my imagination is worse."

 

Certainly. We all have a line and we all individually draw it. We may even change it based on circumstance.

 

And what about public "outing" sites? Dontdatehimgirl, or womansavers, or cheaterville? Is this ok, to put MM and OW's names out here for the rest of the world to see, so that we can save the next "victim" from falling prey to their slick lies? Where does exposure end? Parents, siblings, children, close friends, church community, co-workers, bridge club, poker group, the internet?

 

Again, we can only control ourselves and we all have different viewpoints and motivations. You can only control your actions (to be an OW/OM or not) and control who you tell. You cannot control who THEY tell. The solution is simple - avoid either being "bad" or telling others of it.

 

I have yet to hear of anyone complain because their spouse, friend, relative told people of their recent promotion at work.

Edited October 29, 2011 by jwi71
spelling

[Spark1111]

This reads as though you don't think an AP would ever be interest in or inclined to minimise the hurt to the BS, purely for the benefit of the BS?

 

I think that happens many times. I agree it may be hard for an outsider to understand, but it certainly crops up.

 

SG, here is my problem with this.

 

I was already hurt by my WS and his OW when they decided to engage in the ACT of having an affair.

 

The telling of it pales in comparison to the act of it. If I wasn't a blip on anyone's empathy scale during the affair.....why is everyone oh-so-concerned in protecting my feelings now?

 

It seems condescending and self-protective to withhold or omit info to me.

 

The info can never hurt as much as the act, IMO.

[Spark1111]

Most people wouldn't accept a simple statement of the existence. If a woman called me and told me that she was having an affair with my husband [click], and I ask him, and he says that he's not, darned straight I am going to want some details. I'd want to know longevity, depth, locations, and a whole host of other things. Those things can make a difference on my reaction.

 

And don't forget; there are 3 options after an exposure. The M ends, the EMA ends, or the M continues and so does the EMA. The heat dies down at home, and either OW or MM break NC, and the affair is back on. And I actually see that happen A LOT here.

 

Yes, true, but the innocent, unknowing BS is now informed and can make choices about their future.

 

And that smacks of everyone acting like a grown up and owning their actions from that point forward, whatever they decide to do.

[findingnemo]

Actually, I have to agree with Lucky to an extent...exposure normally is a bad thing for the AP.

 

That's because it's normally done by the BS, with the express intent to end the affair and save their marriage.

 

Can it be used by an AP who has the intent to "get the A out in the open"? Certainly.

 

It doesn't garauntee that it will result in the end of the marriage and the choice to continue on with the affair partner...just as exposure by the BS doesn't garauntee that it'll end the affair and save the marriage.

 

It's a calculated risk being done from either side, with either objective.

 

I would recommend that an AP realize that they're going to have to be willing and ready to face the possible loss of the MM/MW if they pursue this route. The BS (when they do this) typically already realizes that they're in that situation...personally I felt I had nothing more to lose by doing so, but everything to gain. The same may not always be said for everyone, especially not for the AP who feels comfortable with their situation as it is.

 

But for an AP who is NOT satisfied with the situation...it may well lead to resolution...one way or another. Understand and accept that risk, and it might be a tool they could use as well.

 

Jealous, vindictive, vengeful, malicious behaviour is unacceptable in any situation in life. The same rules of human decency should apply even when delivering bad new, iMO.

 

The goal is to out the A and end the secrecy and shame associated in being in an A for the AP. Bunny boiler behaviour is a sign of madness. I think we all agree that ( MB's exposure concept is very clear) exposure must be to close friends and family, not to all and sundry.

 

So if an AP (or BS) is going to expose, I believe that simply saying that there is an A suffices. Going into sexual details and saying MM said nasty stuff about BS is not exposure. It is reckless, hurtful behaviour that would be more than counterproductive.

 

Even if WS denies the existence of the A claiming the AP is a stalker, the A will be out in the open, the WS will have made a choice, and the AP will know what kind of person they are dealing with and the BS will have a chance to examine his/her M and fix it or leave. All round, everybody wins.

 

One more thing. I don't think that BS' are that easily duped. A WS may be a very good liar and able to convince BS that no such thing happened in the short term. But the BS in trying to figure out who the AP is and all that may very well discover that the AP is not crazy and has no reason to target this M specifically. There's no smoke without fire...comes to mind here. Should the BS decide to believe the WS' lies, he/she would be more alert in the future for telling signs.

[findingnemo]

The thread is about exposure of the A, not exposure of the ugly, underlying nastiness of anything. Just the exposure of its existence.

 

So, yes, there can be a lot of good for the AP. I know, I know, there is the rare case where the AP doesn't WANT the MM/MW full time. But, again, they are rare indeed. For the rest, instead of hanging on what are usually empty promises, the AP can find out once and for all if the MM/MW is telling them a bunch of lies or not. Once the A is exposed, it either ends the A (if the BS insists upon it and both parties work diligently toward repairing the M) or it ends the M. Win/win.

 

It really is as simple as this ^^^^.

 

What happens afterwards is anyone's guess. But win win, it is.

[Lucky_One]

I disagree. But that is the nice thing about a civil discussion - we can disagree with each other and still get along.

 

So. How about the Cards?!?!?!