Exposure: good for the goose...

[MissBee]

The exposure I was referring to in this post was specifically to the BS. Many people agree already that exposure could be a good tool to help break the A cycle for an AP who desperately wants to end it. There are those, however, who don't see it that way and believe that it is better for the AP to simply walk away and stop seeing the MP. This is the ideal solution I was talking about. The kind where one solution fits all. The reality however is different. So in that post I was explaining a sitch in which the AP may not be able to walk away/ detach because of being too emotionally invested regardless of the fact that they know it's a dead-end R.

 

I still do not get the idea of desperately wanting to end an A....that's what I am referring to as sounding like you joined some gang and can't get out or are in an abusive situation and are emotionally/psychologically paralyzed and don't know how to end it. In terms of As...I don't get the desperation aspect...like why would it be described in such terms? That's where the dissonance is for me...how is an A different from a normal relationship, in terms of if no one is insane, you can't just breakup and move on? I don't mean you have no feelings, you never break NC, you never look back...most people go through a back and forth with their exes until it tapers off.

 

In terms of if you're dating a single guy nemo...how would you end that relationship? As differ from normal relationships in many ways, but in this case of if you've had enough...why can't you just leave them alone and go NC like one would do with a single person? You mentioned NC being the only tool for APs....tool for what exactly? NC is to give you the space to detach from this person...and I believe for single people NC is also the only tool.

 

Unless your idea is that an A has more overwhelming powers of coercion, which force you back into its clutches more so than other relationships, then with that premise I get why one uses terms like "desperate to get out" and needing to tell other people so it stops...that's also what I meant by it sounds like an abusive scenario....just the atmosphere of desperation and needing the support of others to end it.

Edited October 31, 2011 by MissBee

[woinlove]

That is not true

 

empathy: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner;

 

Doesn't this reinforce nemo's statement? That particular definition is trying to distinguish between being aware of and vicariously experiencing those feelings because you really know and understand as opposed to someone explicitly telling you "I am very hurt and angry" and you thinking "Oh, I know hurt and angry" but you may not really connect to the person. Seems like that particular definition is reinforcing nemo's comment about knowing which is different than being told.

[findingnemo]

I still do not get the idea of desperately wanting to end an A....that's what I am referring to as sounding like you joined some gang and can't get out or are in an abusive situation and are emotionally/psychologically paralyzed and don't know how to end it. In terms of As...I don't get the desperation aspect...like why would it be described in such terms? That's where the dissonance is for me...how is an A different from a normal relationship, in terms of if no one is insane, you can't just breakup and move on? I don't mean you have no feelings, you never break NC, you never look back...most people go through a back and forth with their exes until it tapers off.

 

In terms of if you're dating a single guy nemo...how would you end that relationship? As differ from normal relationships in many ways, but in this case of if you've had enough...why can't you just leave them alone and go NC like one would do with a single person? You mentioned NC being the only tool for APs....tool for what exactly? NC is to give you the space to detach from this person...and I believe for single people NC is also the only tool.

 

Unless your idea is that an A has more overwhelming powers of coercion, which force you back into its clutches more so than other relationships, then with that premise I get why one uses terms like "desperate to get out" and needing to tell other people so it stops...that's also what I meant by it sounds like an abusive scenario....just the atmosphere of desperation and needing the support of others to end it.

 

I agree with you although I find the gang comparison hilarious. I asked about exposure as way to end the A precisely because of how hard it can be sometimes. Obviously if you can just walk away, then NC works. If you're too entangled within the same circles or too in love to resist a persistent MM, then exposure is a solution in many ways to end the A. Now that's desperation. Despair.

 

I believe that As do have a much greater hold on the participants because it is a fantasy, an unfulfilled R. There are exceptions of course. But most times, there's so much that is unknown, unresolved or incomplete between the two parties. This can happen in regular Rs as well. But in As the MP has their own issues that can distract them from pain of ending it. The AP is left in limbo and very vulnerable to the MP breaking NC. Come on, look at the threads here. Telling APs to simply maintain NC sometimes doesn't work. Given time, it will. But how much time? How much pain? Rather they expose and go through withdrawal the hard way knowing it's over for sure, than go through a phased withdrawal with hopeful thought of MP coming back.

 

As hurt so many people and since I joined LS I have learned that APs go through hell. Everything they based their R on was ultimately a lie. The only APs that don't suffer are those who end up with their MMs. Oh yes, and those whose MMs were obvious creeps. Why shouldn't an AP have the option to do whatever it takes to end the A? what possible reason is there for that? That's what I don't get.

[findingnemo]

Didn't think I said that, but maybe talking the points through made it sound that way.

 

Okay.

 

Interesting. I don't think it is automatically self-serving, the scenarios you gave were one way of viewing it, but I don't think that's the only way.

 

what other reasons would an AP what the MP to expose apart from the ones I've stated?

 

But then it comes back to your 'ideal' which you discounted... AP ups and leaves. Job done.

 

I didn't discount APs up and leaving. At no point did I do that.

[findingnemo]

That is not true

 

empathy: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner;

 

What does this mean exactly? An OW can experience the feelings, thoughts of a BS...vicariously? How?

 

An OW can be aware? Sensitive (this is an obvious oxymoron really)? Understand what the BS is going through?

 

The OW is the last person who knows anything about the BS in most cases. It is very rare that the MM is giving her the whole picture, and even then the partial picture could be complete fiction. How then can the OW have empathy for the BS?

[Silly_Girl]

I didn't discount APs up and leaving. At no point did I do that.

 

I thought your premise was 'that's the obvious option but many don't take it so APART from that'... for discussion purposes.

[findingnemo]

I can't agree with this at all. Plus there are many OW who are exBS and know only too well.

 

SG, I'm a BS (stbx). For me to say that because I was betrayed, I can have empathy for xMM's W would be wishful thinking. I can feel bad about the lies she got expelling where her H was when he was with me. I felt terrible to discover that while she was pregnant, MM and I were off to a holiday in some exotic location. In fact, I was horrified to discover a baby 4 months later. But to say it was empathy is stretching it. Feeling bad = guilt. Feeling terrible or horrified was a result of guilt. Empathy is a very specific word that can't be applied in this situation. At least no the way I understand it.

 

Are you saying that the OW can't feel empathy because she feels the BS has asked for it, deserves it? Because that caricature won't be in all cases, and even those who've had the BS painted as a big bad wolf still have the opportunity to consider the bigger picture.. Whether that's 100% true or whether all partners in even the best relationships have times they could say a lot of bad stuff about their partner - and mean it, yet still have strong feelings. Most posters understand they are hearing limited facts. And even if she's the devil incarnate, we're all capable of wondering whether we'd like to be treated that way regardless of who it is. I suppose I'm reading your post as excuses not to have empathy for the BS, which is sort of at odds with how I feel. I might be picking up the angle incorrectly.

 

No. I'm saying that the OW can't feel empathy for the BS because the picture she has of the BS is at best incomplete and at worst reads like a plot from a Stephen King movie. Wondering if you'd (general) like to be cheated on is natural. But it is not based on understanding and being aware of the BS' feelings and circumstances. I'm not disputing that OWs can have positive feelings for the BS. I'm disputing the use of empathy as the word to call those feelings. We could find another word for it.

[findingnemo]

Doesn't this reinforce nemo's statement? That particular definition is trying to distinguish between being aware of and vicariously experiencing those feelings because you really know and understand as opposed to someone explicitly telling you "I am very hurt and angry" and you thinking "Oh, I know hurt and angry" but you may not really connect to the person. Seems like that particular definition is reinforcing nemo's comment about knowing which is different than being told.

 

I wish I'd seen this before responding. I'd have just said ^^^this^^^.

[MissBee]

I agree with you although I find the gang comparison hilarious. I asked about exposure as way to end the A precisely because of how hard it can be sometimes. Obviously if you can just walk away, then NC works. If you're too entangled within the same circles or too in love to resist a persistent MM, then exposure is a solution in many ways to end the A. Now that's desperation. Despair.

 

I believe that As do have a much greater hold on the participants because it is a fantasy, an unfulfilled R. There are exceptions of course. But most times, there's so much that is unknown, unresolved or incomplete between the two parties. This can happen in regular Rs as well. But in As the MP has their own issues that can distract them from pain of ending it. The AP is left in limbo and very vulnerable to the MP breaking NC. Come on, look at the threads here. Telling APs to simply maintain NC sometimes doesn't work. Given time, it will. But how much time? How much pain? Rather they expose and go through withdrawal the hard way knowing it's over for sure, than go through a phased withdrawal with hopeful thought of MP coming back.

As hurt so many people and since I joined LS I have learned that APs go through hell. Everything they based their R on was ultimately a lie. The only APs that don't suffer are those who end up with their MMs. Oh yes, and those whose MMs were obvious creeps. Why shouldn't an AP have the option to do whatever it takes to end the A? what possible reason is there for that? That's what I don't get.

 

I see what you're saying, except that exposure doesn't always lead to the A ending either. So at the end of the day, it comes down to you...as exposure, from what you're describing, is using other people's knowledge to stop it...If after exposed the MM stops for a month then returns, then what? It's still going to be up to you to do what it takes to cut this person out of your life...

 

 

People can do whatever it takes to end their A....except saying it like that sounds like it takes something very extreme, which is my argument, that it does not really take exposure for it to end. NOTHING can guarantee an ending except you. The person who believes exposure is the only way to end it...if that doesn't work then what will they do? They still are going to have to resort to NC and finding some will power....

 

That's the truth. Sorry to say. But I imagine some person ripping their hair out because after exposure the MP pops back up then they resign and say "OMG! I tried to end it but I have to continue because they came back even after exposure"...lol...it just seems like, no you don't...the onus is now on you to find your own strength, will power etc to stop. You can't stop someone from contacting you...but you can stop yourself from resuming an affair. If you can't...I think your goal should be to work out how you can do that within yourself, as it will be an amazing accomplishment and speaks a lot more to how far you've come rather than "telling on yourself" so essentially other people curtail your impulses for you. It's like those people who keep tabs on their spouses to make sure they aren't cheating...IMO....this person not cheating should be because of their own will power and decision and not because their spouse is policing them. The former is more valuable to me than the latter. Likewise learning to say no to an A, after deciding it's over is more valuable than telling on yourself to force it to end.

Edited October 31, 2011 by MissBee

[findingnemo]

I see what you're saying, except that exposure doesn't always lead to the A ending either. So at the end of the day, it comes down to you...as exposure, from what you're describing, is using other people's knowledge to stop it...If after exposed the MM stops for a month then returns, then what? It's still going to be up to you to do what it takes to cut this person out of your life...

 

 

People can do whatever it takes to end their A....except saying it like that sounds like it takes something very extreme, which is my argument, that it does not really take exposure for it to end. NOTHING can guarantee an ending except you. The person who believes exposure is the only way to end it...if that doesn't work then what will they do? They still are going to have to resort to NC and finding some will power....

 

That's the truth. Sorry to say. But I imagine some person ripping their hair out because after exposure the MP pops back up then they resign and say "OMG! I tried to end it but I have to continue because they came back even after exposure"...lol...it just seems like, no you don't...the onus is now on you to find your own strength, will power etc to stop. You can't stop someone from contacting you...but you can stop yourself from resuming an affair. If you can't...I think your goal should be to work out how you can do that within yourself, as it will be an amazing accomplishment and speaks a lot more to how far you've come rather than "telling on yourself" so essentially other people curtail your impulses for you. It's like those people who keep tabs on their spouses to make sure they aren't cheating...IMO....this person not cheating should be because of their own will power and decision and not because their spouse is policing them. The former is more valuable to me than the latter. Likewise learning to say no to an A, after deciding it's over is more valuable than telling on yourself to force it to end.

 

You make a very valid point there. At the end, it's you who has to find a way out of the A. But....(desperate times and all that) if the MM comes back and bugs you, it has now gone the way of Fatal Attraction. Dial 911!! This guy would have to be as persistent as a stalker and as determined as a serial killer.

 

But seriously, if NC and exposure fail then the AP has a huge problem.

[PhoenixRise]

I can't agree with this at all. Plus there are many OW who are exBS and know only too well.

 

 

 

I see former BS turned OW post this sentiment often.

 

But really, why assume that your previous time as a BS prepares you to have actual empathy for the BS in your current triangle situation?

 

The way you felt, reacted, thought etc as a BS may have absolutely NO correlation to the way your MMs BS will feel. You are different women with different viewpoints, life experiences, and families of origin, and the way you felt/reacted in your role as BS is not the universal way nor is it necessarily the "right" way so you don't really know enough about how the BS feels unless she is actually confiding in you.

 

Not directing this a Silly in particular, but usually when I see a current OW post that she was once a BS she is doing it to invalidate the current BS's response to the affair because it doesn't jibe with the OW's response from when she was a BS. And usually she is implying that her response (former BS turned OW) is the right and reasonable one.

 

No empathy there. Not really.

[Silly_Girl]

No. I'm saying that the OW can't feel empathy for the BS because the picture she has of the BS is at best incomplete and at worst reads like a plot from a Stephen King movie.

 

I get the impression you feel most OW's choose to be blind to what's going on or might be going on? Or maybe prefer to hear the 'she's a witch' scenario rather than the truth?

 

A lot of OWs I read get that there is only one side of the story being shown, and when pushed on 'facts' many of them have not merely taken their guy's version for granted. Some do, it seems, yes.

 

Just because he SAYS x, y, z does not mean all OW believe it, or that they believe him from the off, just because it came out of his mouth.

[mzdolphin]

If you expose an affair I think it is important to practice detachment. Simply state what you know. Don't pretend to know anything. When I emailed the BS I stated this is what he told me. I have no idea if this is the truth. I don't know what to believe. All I know is that he has not been honest with me.

 

I gave her some facts (mostly dates and times to establish credibility) I included nothing illicit. I was not accusatory and laid no claim to her husband. I stated that he presented himself as divorced. That later I found evidence to the contrary. When confronted he said it was in name only and feared telling me and that it was being taken care of. Because I believed he and I were in a relationship and I had a past with him going back 18 years, I approached her in a similar way a BS would an OW. I just want to know the truth?

 

She never contacted me. He did. I to this day don't know what actually went down between them. I just know he was back in my life soon after. You can't control the outcome or how BS will react. But you can control your actions. You can refuse to participate in his deception, seeking the truth for yourself. Maybe it forces them to face issues in their marriage and they reconcile. Maybe she kicks him out. Maybe he decides to leave. The point is you expose the truth not to dictate an outcome, but to shed light on deception.

[donnamaybe]

The point is you expose the truth not to dictate an outcome, but to shed light on deception.

Precisely, and outing the deception will often dictate an outcome. Well, not any particular outcome, but an outcome at least.

[Silly_Girl]

I see former BS turned OW post this sentiment often.

 

But really, why assume that your previous time as a BS prepares you to have actual empathy for the BS in your current triangle situation?

 

The way you felt, reacted, thought etc as a BS may have absolutely NO correlation to the way your MMs BS will feel. You are different women with different viewpoints, life experiences, and families of origin, and the way you felt/reacted in your role as BS is not the universal way nor is it necessarily the "right" way so you don't really know enough about how the BS feels unless she is actually confiding in you.

 

Not directing this a Silly in particular, but usually when I see a current OW post that she was once a BS she is doing it to invalidate the current BS's response to the affair because it doesn't jibe with the OW's response from when she was a BS. And usually she is implying that her response (former BS turned OW) is the right and reasonable one.

 

No empathy there. Not really.

 

Appreciate what you're saying. I think some people (not all) are excellent empathisers, even without having had an experience in the same ballpark.

[Spark1111]

If you expose an affair I think it is important to practice detachment. Simply state what you know. Don't pretend to know anything. When I emailed the BS I stated this is what he told me. I have no idea if this is the truth. I don't know what to believe. All I know is that he has not been honest with me.

 

I gave her some facts (mostly dates and times to establish credibility) I included nothing illicit. I was not accusatory and laid no claim to her husband. I stated that he presented himself as divorced. That later I found evidence to the contrary. When confronted he said it was in name only and feared telling me and that it was being taken care of. Because I believed he and I were in a relationship and I had a past with him going back 18 years, I approached her in a similar way a BS would an OW. I just want to know the truth?

 

She never contacted me. He did. I to this day don't know what actually went down between them. I just know he was back in my life soon after. You can't control the outcome or how BS will react. But you can control your actions. You can refuse to participate in his deception, seeking the truth for yourself. Maybe it forces them to face issues in their marriage and they reconcile. Maybe she kicks him out. Maybe he decides to leave. The point is you expose the truth not to dictate an outcome, but to shed light on deception.

 

FN, hopefully not a t/j....

 

I am here to assert there is a great likelihood that you were explained away....she developed a crush on me...she assumed I was divorced....I never said that....just friends....I can't help someone falling for me....a total misunderstanding on her part....she's more than a little unstable....What am I suppose to do, I work with her?!...Sure we had dinner/lunch...we were discussing the project.....

 

As a spouse attracted to her H, of course she finds him handsome and charming and knows, or has seen first hand how women react to him.

 

When you love and trust someone, it oh-so-easy to be gaslighted. Did you send any HARD evidence....romantic emails, cell phone bills? Anything to substantiate your credibility?

 

Because had I not had hard evidence garnered on my own, the OW in my sitch could have easily been explained away.

 

....just saying....

[Got it]

Why are you lying to yourself then if you are fundamentally pro-truth? Calling a married man who is not divorced from his wife your 'boyfriend' doesn't make him any less married or you anything more than OW. Putting a glossy coat on it makes it easier for you to swallow.

 

How is that lying? Someone's husband can be someone else's boyfriend. It isn't an exclusive title. She is dating someone who is not her friend, brother, husband, father, or cousin. He is a man she is dating, i.e. a boyfriend. Nothing more nothing less, just a label that is commonly used.

[Owl]

Lie by (deliberate?) omission?

 

Easier to focus on the "my boyfriend" part and allow yourself to ignore the "her husband" part.

[Got it]

Lie by (deliberate?) omission?

 

Easier to focus on the "my boyfriend" part and allow yourself to ignore the "her husband" part.

 

I don't think it causes you to forget that part. But it is an ease in communication/reference/label. Nothing more nothing less. It doesn't negate or enhance the marital status.

[Got it]

LOL! Come back and repeat that when your H becomes someone else's boyfriend.

 

And what does that have to do with this? This is about the OW referencing the MM as boyfriend. It isn't about the BS' feelings on the OW calling the MM boyfriend, it isn't abou the MM's feelings on being referenced as the boyfriend. It isn't really the OW's feelings on the MM being a MM. Like I stated to Owl, just ease of communication/reference/label.

 

And to be honest, after high school, referencing anyone as "boyfriend or girlfriend" is odd to me. I feel like we need to put our initials in a tree and make sure we get home in time for curfew.

[Silly_Girl]

I like the term 'boyfriend'. Partner just sounds a bit over-eager to me, but that's just a preference thing. We don't have a mortgage together, we aren't married, we *are* exclusive and all who know us know we're committed to one another in the long run. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would suggest I couldn't use that term if I chose.

[Got it]

Why not refer to them as the accepted label that everyone uses on this forum for married men, MM? The use of the term 'boyfriend' is to purposely enhance the OW status, making it easier to swallow.

 

Why? Does it allow you to forget who the person is referencing? It doesn't appear to so what is the difference if they choice to refer to their MM as boyfriend, their MM, their significant other, or their great big wuggly bear? In what way does it impact you?

 

And how does it "enhance the OW status"? Making it easier to swallow for whom? The OP or you?

[Owl]

I don't think it causes you to forget that part. But it is an ease in communication/reference/label. Nothing more nothing less. It doesn't negate or enhance the marital status.

 

I disagree.

 

Perception becomes reality. If you continually focus on one aspect of a situation or person, you can easily minimize (in your mind) the aspects that you ignore.

 

 

People do this all the time in the limerance or "in love" stage of a relationship.

 

It's much easier for her to "claim" the man she sees as "her boydriend" than it would be for her to "claim" a man she views as "Mrs Jone's husband". Much easier to view yourself in an emotional relationship with the first over the latter.

[Silly_Girl]

I disagree.

 

Perception becomes reality. If you continually focus on one aspect of a situation or person, you can easily minimize (in your mind) the aspects that you ignore.

 

 

People do this all the time in the limerance or "in love" stage of a relationship.

 

It's much easier for her to "claim" the man she sees as "her boydriend" than it would be for her to "claim" a man she views as "Mrs Jone's husband". Much easier to view yourself in an emotional relationship with the first over the latter.

 

That's your take on it. I remained married for years after we'd separated, for legal/financial reasons and it had absolutely zero relevance to my feelings towards my separated husband and his new girlfriend (they've had kids but chosen not to marry), or my new relationship. The legal status matters to some people and doesn't to others.

[thomasb]

Why not refer to them as the accepted label that everyone uses on this forum for married men, MM? The use of the term 'boyfriend' is to purposely enhance the OW status, making it easier to swallow.

 

 

I agree with you and Owl. He is not her boyfriend. He is his wives husband. The only thing he is to her is a well kept secret. When he divorces and sees her he can be the 'boyfriend'.