Exposure: good for the goose...

[woinlove]

Busybodies with malicious intent might tell the BW.

 

 

This came up on another thread and I've mentioned it before, but I told a good friend of mine that her H was having an A. Have you ever had the experience of looking at someone you really care about, knowing they were being betrayed in that way, and still decided you would not tell them the truth? What if it were your daughter or sister or best friend? Ideally, one would like the WH to tell, but, sadly, they are often set on behaving in an extremely dishonest way at the time.

 

Typically busybodies with malicious intent are too busy treating people unkindly to tell the person who is in most need of truth and honesty - the BW. Almost always the BW finds out through other means - the WH, the OW (may have malicious intent, but can't be called a busybody in this context since she is so involved), a friend, her child, family member, or through her own investigation.

[Lucky_One]

Benefits:

 

The OW gets the support of her family and friends, his family and friends, and their visibility as a couple is affirmed and endorsed socially by friends and family. They get seen as "the primary couple" since others can see by their genuine love, respect and affection for one another that it is a healthy R, and not simply an economic or social convenience, as is the M.

 

The OW becomes included in more and more aspects of the MM's life, and gets to see him in a greater variety of contexts and situations - and he her - so that they can make a more fully informed decision about how suited they are to a long-term, or even permanent, R.

 

The MM has more people who are better informed to turn to for advice, since they know the OW and can advise him on longer-term prospects of the R, and whether or not she might be a better match than the BW. The MM also has a broader support base to draw on when seeking support or advice on how to handle the BW, or any other aspect of being in two simultaneous Rs since they know the full picture.

 

Should the A end, the OW can mourn openly since the R is acknowledged and socially endorsed. Support from friends and family can more readily be provided since they are better informed. The same holds for the MM.

 

 

I assume you mean the above scenario might happen in a very few situations, but certainly not all?

[jwi71]

Grrr...just lost an entire essay.

 

I wanted to simplify this debate by stating a primary objective of Exposure and then perhaps the benefits that an AP could receive as a result.

 

The goal of Exposure of an A to friends, family and BS(s) by an AP is, at the minimum, to come out of a life of lies and break the secret nature of the relationship with the MP.

 

The benefits that can result from this are:

 

1. The MP would be forced to make a choice whatever this is.

2. The BS is made aware of the situation and can also make a choice.

3. The AP gains a support system.

4. The MP is forced to deal with his/her life and seek a resolution.

 

Does this make sense to you? Can Exposure then be a suggested tool for APs who want to end As for whatever reason?

 

ETA: Trying to see if there is a consensus on whether it is better to live in truth by telling (regardless of pain it causes) or keeping the secret.

 

 

 

jw, I read your responses earlier but think you misunderstood me. If not, please explain further. You seem to be be agreeing with me on most points although I'm not sure whether you're referring to me personally or a general "you".

 

FN,

 

I am a proponent of telling in most cases (there are of course exceptions, yours isnt one).

 

To address your bullet points:

 

1) The MM may be forced into deciding - depending upon who you tell. If you tell YOUR friends and family, and why wouldn't you, then word may get "out" and find its way to the BS. Clearly, telling the W would result in some interesting talks at his place that evening. However NONE of that ensures a decision is made. Of course, this being reality its 99% certain a decision will be demanded by someone. And the MM may even decide. And what does that get YOU? It lifts this burden from your shoulders. Instead of wondering and weighing when, if or to whom to tell, you have already done so. Its the only action YOU can take (since NC doesn't work for you). That's the benefit.

 

2) Correct. The BS may demand the change you are incapable of. What is so bad about that? You and your MM have, over the years, failed. Wait. Scratch that. Your MM had NO PROBLEM being NC for years (as far as you've posted). So YOU had problems with NC whereas he did not. Since YOU are incapable of making change, and the MM seems content to keep you as OW, let the BS have some say. Isn't that fair and just? And she may even send him packing - you win! Or do you?

 

3) Elizabeth Southerns touches on this a bit - halfway anyways. As does Missbee (with whom we cant seem to post...on the same page...my fault Im sure). Why don't you have a support system now? Why not tell your friends and family and clergy and whoever else you deem appropriate of your travails NOW? Why must you have no support system NOW? Why do YOU keep it secret from YOUR support base NOW? If the AP has no support system its because the OW/OM CHOOSES so. Why is something one should explore.

 

4) Maybe. Maybe not. Telling the world (not the world world, you know what I mean) is the ONLY ACTION YOU CAN TAKE to cause change. NC isn't in the cards for you. True, you could wait but I see that as more inaction than an action. Others may disagree. So tell. Build a support system and get the truth out there. Once everyone knows you can get deeply personal advice from people you know, love and trust. Way better that some internet forum guy.

 

Your motives are strictly your own and perfectly valid. Maybe not socially acceptable but at this point who effin' cares. And you aren't going to come out of this looking pretty no matter what. Take your lumps. (Believe me, I have taken my fair share and it svcked each time). However, I have found the fear of "the lumps" is far worse than the actual lumps. My experience. Especially if one learns and grows from it.

 

People involved in A's don't like to seem them BECAUSE its not acceptable behavior to anyone anywhere. The core of infidelity is betrayal. And no one, nowhere finds THAT acceptable (despite what others claim). And having the A "outed" really means having to show others an ugly side. And who the hell wants to show that?

 

Tell.

Its not only the right thing to do - it also sets YOU free. It ends this emotional prison you have locked yourself in. It gives you the support you need. It gives the BS insight into her M and her H. It will, because this is reality, force the MM to choose. At least change.

 

You won't look good. You won't come out of this smelling like roses.

 

But your friends and family will, by and large, stick by you. Some may turn their backs - most will not. Pure guess on my part. Yours too if you think about it.

 

I am a proponent of actively living one's life. And this is action.

 

Ultimately, its up to you.

 

Do you want change?

[MissBee]

That's spurious.

 

 

 

I'd already responded to that:

 

 

 

We can go round and round the mulberry bush all year, but I'd rather get back to the point of the thread instead.

 

 

 

Benefits:

The OW gets the support of her family and friends, his family and friends, and their visibility as a couple is affirmed and endorsed socially by friends and family. They get seen as "the primary couple" since others can see by their genuine love, respect and affection for one another that it is a healthy R, and not simply an economic or social convenience, as is the M.

 

The OW becomes included in more and more aspects of the MM's life, and gets to see him in a greater variety of contexts and situations - and he her - so that they can make a more fully informed decision about how suited they are to a long-term, or even permanent, R.

The MM has more people who are better informed to turn to for advice, since they know the OW and can advise him on longer-term prospects of the R, and whether or not she might be a better match than the BW. The MM also has a broader support base to draw on when seeking support or advice on how to handle the BW, or any other aspect of being in two simultaneous Rs since they know the full picture.

 

Should the A end, the OW can mourn openly since the R is acknowledged and socially endorsed. Support from friends and family can more readily be provided since they are better informed. The same holds for the MM.

Drawbacks:

 

If they live in Deliveranceville, they may be subject to disapproval or judgment from narrow-minded people.

 

Busybodies with malicious intent might tell the BW.

 

The BW might resent the public humiliation of "her" H being socially accepted as the partner of another woman, and may act up.

 

I suppose these outcomes are in a very specific subset of cases and not a general idea of what usually happens...this a perspective that lacks much nuance.

 

All your examples do not seem to feature any form of tension (whether short or longterm) but an all out embracing and acceptance...there is also this assumption that there is genuine love and people will see it etc...which ofcourse speaks to you having a very particular model of an A in mind and not anything generalizable to the various forms of As that exist (some containing no love, little love, lust, drama, etc like any other kind of relationship.Not all marriages or single relationships contain genuine love, likewise the same goes for affairs) and the various forms of people that exist within someone's family and friendship circle. It is unlikely that EVERYONE would accept this....maybe some would and some wouldn't but your description seems to assume that there will be no dissenters whatsoever.

 

I have no idea why someone would need other people to tell them whether or not their OW is a better partner than their BW....how can someone even make that determination for you?

 

In none of your cases do you factor in the BW's response...it's interesting. You factor in the MM and the OW being embraced by friends and family and everyone rallying around to tell him what to do to "handle the BW" but the BW seems to not have any voice in your worldview and examples. You have absolutely ignored the possibility of her having any say, good, bad or indifferent. She simply doesn't exist for you. Interesting. In most realities though, I'd imagine she would play a huge role in the exposure and what happens after that.

 

Again, maybe you left out some significant info, in saying you are talking about a specific type of affair where everyone hated the wife or something and were all hoping the MM would leave her. In a case like that what you're describing makes a lot more sense and seems truer to life, but in the myriad of other dynamics where family and friends actually like the BS, liked them as a couple, friends were the ones who introduced the couple, the in-laws are like sister and brother, and the people in the couple's life have some form of loyalty to the BS etc (which is what very often happens in a marriage where you've been together for a while)...it would be very unlikely that they would respond in the way you describe. I think most people would choose sides or try to butt out altogether so as not to have to choose....there would be some shock, some hurt feelings, some form of tension....but you describe this all out gravitation towards the MM and OW where everyone is rejoicing and supportive and the BW is not even thought about except on how to "handle" her. It seems very unrealistic and not applicable to most A scenarios or any type of relationship dynamic...as in any social setting, when a new person is introduced esp as a replacement for someone else others have grown to know and love...people do not simply discard this other person and embrace this new person without tension and sometimes they never embrace them. Yet your example seems to be somewhat skewed towards a downplaying of any negative response and an overestimation of the positive....

Edited October 27, 2011 by MissBee

[donnamaybe]

I assume you mean the above scenario might happen in a very few situations, but certainly not all?

 

Very few indeed.

[bentnotbroken]

hmmmm....

not sure where you live or which cricles you travel in, but they seem very different from mine.

 

I hardly think that someone telling someone that their spouse is cheating on them is a "busybody"

 

the husband of a lady i know was cheating and still sleeping with her. Surprise! He had caught syphalis from him other woman, and he passed it to his wife. She didn't know.

 

finally, someone told her what was going on ( she still didn't know she had caught it), and she got tested for std's . fortuneately, she got treatment before it reached the secondary stage ( she didn't have to go insane because the spirochetes detroyed parts of her brain befiore killing her in it's tertiary stage,)

 

now, do you think the people that told her what was going on were "busybodies" or were they trying to help?

 

what if you had been the betrayed spouse, or if she had been your daughter, your sister, a good friend, etc.? wouldn't you want her to know, or are people only "busybodies" when they stand between you and what you want?

 

As opposed to the "busybodies" without malicious intent. Like those who insert themselves in marriages. I guess now I know there is more than one definition for a busybody.

[findingnemo]

What a thoughtful post, jw. Thank you. See my responses in bold. Perhaps I see my sitch as special or different or I'm delusional or something. Having thought about how to end my misery for years, I have some serious logical issues with exposure in my case. But then again, it could all be just excuses!

 

FN,

 

I am a proponent of telling in most cases (there are of course exceptions, yours isnt one).

 

To address your bullet points:

 

1) The MM may be forced into deciding - depending upon who you tell. If you tell YOUR friends and family, and why wouldn't you, then word may get "out" and find its way to the BS. Clearly, telling the W would result in some interesting talks at his place that evening. However NONE of that ensures a decision is made. Of course, this being reality its 99% certain a decision will be demanded by someone. And the MM may even decide. And what does that get YOU? It lifts this burden from your shoulders. Instead of wondering and weighing when, if or to whom to tell, you have already done so. Its the only action YOU can take (since NC doesn't work for you). That's the benefit.

 

The question at hand has nothing to do with my case although I have thought about how exposure early on could have saved me a lot of heartache and wasted time. Do you think that I should expose now in order to force a decision? xMM made up his mind long time ago. He won't leave his M for anything. So this can't be a goal of exposure for me.

 

 

2) Correct. The BS may demand the change you are incapable of. What is so bad about that? You and your MM have, over the years, failed. Wait. Scratch that. Your MM had NO PROBLEM being NC for years (as far as you've posted). So YOU had problems with NC whereas he did not. Since YOU are incapable of making change, and the MM seems content to keep you as OW, let the BS have some say. Isn't that fair and just? And she may even send him packing - you win! Or do you?

 

I did demand change once. It was in 2004 when I gave him an ultimatum. He chose her claiming she had a pre-cancer scare and might need a hysterectomy. He said he couldn't leave her at that time. Whether it's a valid reason or not is not relevant. He chose her. Thereafter, I ended the A. That was 7 years ago!!

 

NC is something I've failed to maintain, I agree. As to him being content to keep me as an OW, how exactly does he get to do that? Is he content with knowing he can tell me once in a blue moon that he still loves me? That's all he gets. Most of our conversations are about business and only when either of us has a major problem (bad M for me, one incident in his M, death of a mutual friend, sick kids, financial problems) has the conversation become emotional. It's true there is one thing I have told him and nobody else. It has to do with something my stbxh did to me. Why did I feel comfortable telling him and nobody else? That's a good question and at this point I don't know the answer to that.

 

If I expose and the BS leaves him, I'm rather certain that he and I won't get together. It's not because we can't. It's because on my part, I'd feel more guilty at actively breaking up his M. If he leaves for any reason apart from it being coming to me, then after a while we could try to see if we can work. I'm not under any illusions about his good and bad sides. I know that our interaction during the A is not a clear picture of how we'd be together. No, I'm not sitting here thinking that once BS is out of the picture, all will be well with us.

 

 

3) Elizabeth Southerns touches on this a bit - halfway anyways. As does Missbee (with whom we cant seem to post...on the same page...my fault Im sure). Why don't you have a support system now? Why not tell your friends and family and clergy and whoever else you deem appropriate of your travails NOW? Why must you have no support system NOW? Why do YOU keep it secret from YOUR support base NOW? If the AP has no support system its because the OW/OM CHOOSES so. Why is something one should explore.

 

I already have a support system. All my friends know him and were there when We first met and fell in love. They were there when he got married and he and I started an A. They were there for me when I made the decision to give him an ultimatum and held me together when he chose her. They were there all through my NCs and when I moved on and got M. All through my M, my babies, my trips to hospital because of bruises, burst eardrums and the like, they were there. My family and friends have always supported me and I've never hidden anything from them. His family meaning his siblings have known me for years. His friends have remained the same. All these people know about our R prior to his M, and they also saw us together a lot during the A. Did I discuss the A with anybody on his side? Yes, I did. His brothers who were of the view that I become a "second" wife. In other words, they thought that it didn't make sense that two people in love can't be together. They wanted us to go the traditional M way, which allows for more than one W. Needless to say, I wasn't interested.

 

4) Maybe. Maybe not. Telling the world (not the world world, you know what I mean) is the ONLY ACTION YOU CAN TAKE to cause change. NC isn't in the cards for you. True, you could wait but I see that as more inaction than an action. Others may disagree. So tell. Build a support system and get the truth out there. Once everyone knows you can get deeply personal advice from people you know, love and trust. Way better that some internet forum guy.

 

Your motives are strictly your own and perfectly valid. Maybe not socially acceptable but at this point who effin' cares. And you aren't going to come out of this looking pretty no matter what. Take your lumps. (Believe me, I have taken my fair share and it svcked each time). However, I have found the fear of "the lumps" is far worse than the actual lumps. My experience. Especially if one learns and grows from it.

 

Exposure of the A (which ended 7 years ago) on my part would result in the following: (I think)

 

1.BS will know that WS lied to her for years and that he still has feelings for me even though there's nothing physical going on.

2. WS would have to admit that something happened for years and that he betrayed her continually. Whether he'd be forced to admit that he loves me TOO is highly doubtful.

3. I would have told the truth. Would it change my feelings? Perhaps all the business dealings would come to an end. Would that change how I feel about him? Will exposure get me "unstuck" from the emotional prison I'm in?

 

Unless you see it differently, the problem I have stems from my feelings for xMM that have lingered regardless of the end of the actual romantic R and subsequent A. If I expose, BS will be incredibly hurt and would have to ask what she should do. Will she leave him because of an old A that's over? Possibly. But is telling the truth for the sake of telling it the answer for me? Am I living a lie right now? No. I haven't lived a lie for 7 years. To what end, exposure?

 

People involved in A's don't like to seem them BECAUSE its not acceptable behavior to anyone anywhere. The core of infidelity is betrayal. And no one, nowhere finds THAT acceptable (despite what others claim). And having the A "outed" really means having to show others an ugly side. And who the hell wants to show that?

 

Tell.

Its not only the right thing to do - it also sets YOU free. It ends this emotional prison you have locked yourself in. It gives you the support you need. It gives the BS insight into her M and her H. It will, because this is reality, force the MM to choose. At least change.

 

You won't look good. You won't come out of this smelling like roses.

 

But your friends and family will, by and large, stick by you. Some may turn their backs - most will not. Pure guess on my part. Yours too if you think about it.

 

I am a proponent of actively living one's life. And this is action.

 

Ultimately, its up to you.

 

Do you want change?

[Kitsune77]

Pure , you rock:)))))

 

Is it not vindictive/coercion to tell the world about a perceived wrong with ultimate goal being to shame them into whatever mold another person wants? To me it's sick.

[donnamaybe]

Gee. Someone does something they think is fine and dandy, then others find out and the behavior is suddenly "shameful," so the person who told about the behavior is the "sick" one? Um, okay.

[Owl]

I'll call it like it was. I told my friends and family because I needed the support from them to get through what was going on.

 

I told her friends and sister with the express intent to keep her from going to live with OM...whom she'd only known online, and had never met in person.

 

Flat out...I was AFRAID for her. Not afraid of losing her...but afraid of her getting into a situation that she had no real thought about what she was doing.

 

Shame her into staying? Sure, call it that.

 

Guess what...not only was it effective...not only did it work...but she has many times THANKED ME for taking every effort I took to save our marriage and protect her.

 

Call it vindictive if you like...call it peanut butter and cheese omelets...I'm glad I did it, I'm pleased with the results, and so is my wife.

[donnamaybe]

I'll call it like it was. I told my friends and family because I needed the support from them to get through what was going on.

 

I told her friends and sister with the express intent to keep her from going to live with OM...whom she'd only known online, and had never met in person.

 

Flat out...I was AFRAID for her. Not afraid of losing her...but afraid of her getting into a situation that she had no real thought about what she was doing.

 

Shame her into staying? Sure, call it that.

 

Guess what...not only was it effective...not only did it work...but she has many times THANKED ME for taking every effort I took to save our marriage and protect her.

 

Call it vindictive if you like...call it peanut butter and cheese omelets...I'm glad I did it, I'm pleased with the results, and so is my wife.

You're right. And it's probably just a defense mechanism, I suppose, to try to demonize the BS. I'm glad the choice you made worked out well for you AND your wife!

[woinlove]

I'll call it like it was. I told my friends and family because I needed the support from them to get through what was going on.

 

I told her friends and sister with the express intent to keep her from going to live with OM...whom she'd only known online, and had never met in person.

 

Flat out...I was AFRAID for her. Not afraid of losing her...but afraid of her getting into a situation that she had no real thought about what she was doing.

 

Shame her into staying? Sure, call it that.

 

Guess what...not only was it effective...not only did it work...but she has many times THANKED ME for taking every effort I took to save our marriage and protect her.

 

Call it vindictive if you like...call it peanut butter and cheese omelets...I'm glad I did it, I'm pleased with the results, and so is my wife.

 

That's a good example of what some here may label shaming the WS to get them to behave how you want, but which may be caring about them and doing what you can to protect them from harming themselves and others.

 

I can understand the aversion to telling if one feels ashamed of his/her actions and hope it is kept secret, but labelling others sick or malicious for telling the truth and not giving any indication of attempting to understand others' points of view, is not very useful input on this topic.

[LifesontheUp]

Shame her into staying? Sure, call it that.

 

Excellent post Owl. I don't think it shaming people works for many. If the MM/MW want to truly go be with their AP then they will go.

 

How come all of a sudden being open and honest with people is shameful. How sick and twisted is that

 

findingnemo - I find that honesty truly is the best policy in whatever I do.

[bentnotbroken]

Yeah, I really don't get the shaming thing. If you are okay with your actions, happy with your choices...there is nothing IMO to be ashamed of. I guess one should only speak about the spouses "good" choices and make damn sure no one finds out about the "bad" ones.

[Spark1111]

Yeah, I really don't get the shaming thing. If you are okay with your actions, happy with your choices...there is nothing IMO to be ashamed of. I guess one should only speak about the spouses "good" choices and make damn sure no one finds out about the "bad" ones.

 

I totally agree. I cannot shame a person who does not ALREADY feel ashamed of their choices.

 

It doesn't work.

[Got it]

Having an affair on the job is not an EEOC protected activity. At Will means an employer can fire you for the things that aren't protected by law. Sure, you can sue for wrongful termination if you want, but not that many people are so entitled and full of themselves to actually do this.

 

I do agree, that most companies won't touch it if it could lead to a possible sexual harassment case. But they have many other options available to them to get around that issue if they just want to remove the offenders quietly.

 

No where did I state it was a protected class and in fact I listed what classes are protected. But that does not negate or compromise only what would constitute a wrongful termination and there have been successful lawsuits in regards to wrongful terminations in regards to affairs. I am not understanding how one is considered full of themselves or entitled if they consider filing a wrongful terminaction suit if it is in fact a wrongful termination. Just like have a criminal record is not a carte blanc reason to be terminated. Depends on many different factors.

[thomasb]

Excellent post Owl. I don't think it shaming people works for many. If the MM/MW want to truly go be with their AP then they will go.

 

How come all of a sudden being open and honest with people is shameful. How sick and twisted is that

 

findingnemo - I find that honesty truly is the best policy in whatever I do.

 

 

Agree totally.

Exposure by my wife was a good thing for us also. When the OW went on the attack, we had plenty of people around us who knew the truth. Including my wifes employer. (OW tried to get her fired.) And the cops. It only made her look like the nutcase she had turned into. It is about support and self protection. Point being, if you think the truth about an action of your own will cause you shame...don't do it!

[thomasb]

Case in point. OW wouldn't have been able to do this if he had kept his pants on. Now his family suffers.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/29586961/detail.html

[donnamaybe]

Case in point. OW wouldn't have been able to do this if he had kept his pants on. Now his family suffers.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/29586961/detail.html

Now THERE is a good example of "sick."

[findingnemo]

I also disagree with the whole shame angle. If a WS gets ashamed, it's because they did something shameful regardless of their motives. Lying, gas lighting, pretending, sneaking, and so many other unsultry words I don't want to say is shameful behaviour.

 

Also if I have been aggrieved as a BS or even as the OW, I should have very right to tell my support system. Why? So that I can get support. What use is a support system if it doesn't know what support to give? A WS who gets angry about exposure because it will shame him/her is in a fog, delusional.

 

And that's what exposure for the AP is about. The AP feels shame from day one because their role is not publicized. Their love is hidden like it is a bad thing. Love is and shall never be a bad thing. What turns it into a shameful thing is acting like it is just that -a shame. Who doesnt want their close friends and family to know that they are in love and are loved in return? This forum is full of APs who loving the WS are in fear of being caught doing just that. So if I'm not married but MM is, and he wants to "love" me, let's get it out in the open. Shout it out on the rooftops. He shouldn't put me in a situation where I have to hide, obfuscate, lie, act, deny, pretend, etc. If he loves me, he shouldn't put me in a shameful position period. To do so is to accept the risk that his own shameful position will be discovered.

 

Have you ever heard of cases where a MM or MW flirts with a single person and that person gets pi$$ed off and tells the BS? What happens then? You know, the type of MP who will not let an opportunity to eff around elude them? I'm sure we know at least one of those in our community. What the MP sees as a potential AP gets irritated enough to immediately expose the MP. The MP suffers shame in such a sitch too. They are probably known to all as sexual predators. Their continuous actions cause this problem. But the immediate exposure halts any possibility for an A to occur.

 

Shame? Definitely a result of doing something shameful.:bunny:

Edited October 28, 2011 by findingnemo

[MissBee]

I also disagree with the whole shame angle. If a WS gets ashamed, it's because they did something shameful regardless of their motives. Lying, gas lighting, pretending, sneaking, and so many other unsultry words I don't want to say is shameful behaviour.

 

Also if I have been aggrieved as a BS or even as the OW, I should have very right to tell my support system. Why? So that I can get support. What use is a support system if it doesn't know what support to give? A WS who gets angry about exposure because it will shame him/her is in a fog, delusional.

 

And that's what exposure for the AP is about. The AP feels shame from day one because their role is not publicized. Their love is hidden like it is a bad thing. Love is and shall never be a bad thing. What turns it into a shameful thing is acting like it is just that -a shame. Who doesnt want their close friends and family to know that they are in love and are loved in return? This forum is full of APs who loving the WS are in fear of being caught doing just that. So if I'm not married but MM is, and he wants to "love" me, let's get it out in the open. Shout it out on the rooftops. He shouldn't put me in a situation where I have to hide, obfuscate, lie, act, deny, pretend, etc. If he loves me, he shouldn't put me in a shameful position period. To do so is to accept the risk that his own shameful position will be discovered.

 

Have you ever heard of cases where a MM or MW flirts with a single person and that person gets pi$$ed off and tells the BS? What happens then? You know, the type of MP who will not let an opportunity to eff around elude them? I'm sure we know at least one of those in our community. What the MP sees as a potential AP gets irritated enough to immediately expose the MP. The MP suffers shame in such a sitch too. They are probably known to all as sexual predators. Their continuous actions cause this problem. But the immediate exposure halts any possibility for an A to occur.

 

Shame? Definitely a result of doing something shameful.:bunny:

 

Where does shame become punishment?

 

I agree that one's own shameful actions produce that shame...however, if for example, I did something shameful...I already feel shame and I tell my family about my shameful actions and they go and tell other people in my family, friends, whoever and go around bringing up my shameful actions...is that right? I realize and admitted to doing that shameful thing...but I think it gets to punishing when one keeps reminding this person or feel as if since they did something shameful, then if you tell everyone, it doesn't matter as they did it so what's the problem? I think that's the attitude I am leery about....

 

That behavior like that...while I get it feels vindicating, like it's that person's fault, they did it...so screw how they feel and it's the truth...but at what point does behavior like that on the "innocent" person's part simply become reprisal and counterproductive? While the system of penal law is not perfect...the premise behind it is to avoid people from doing counterproductive things in the name of vindication/justice...as sometimes our feelings lead us into the realm of thinking two wrongs make a right or not realizing our actions as wrong if we "didn't start it first".Which goes back to what is your goal? To build yourself up, to reconcile or to move on and do as much reprisal damage as you can? Depending on your goal....certain things may not work toward that end.

Edited October 28, 2011 by MissBee

[donnamaybe]

Where does shame become punishment?

 

I agree that one's own shameful actions produce that shame...however, if for example, I did something shameful...I already feel shame and I tell my family about my shameful actions and they go and tell other people in my family, friends, whoever and go around bringing up my shameful actions...is that right? I realize and admitted to doing that shameful thing...but I think it gets to punishing when one keeps reminding this person or feel as if since they did something shameful, then if you tell everyone, it doesn't matter as they did it so what's the problem? I think that's the attitude I am leery about....

 

That behavior like that...while I get it feels vindicating, like it's that person's fault, they did it...so screw how they feel and it's the truth...but at what point does behavior like that on the "innocent" person's part simply become reprisal and counterproductive? While the system of penal law is not perfect...the premise behind it is to avoid people from doing counterproductive things in the name of vindication/justice...as sometimes our feelings lead us into the realm of thinking two wrongs make a right or not realizing our actions as wrong if we "didn't start it first".Which goes back to what is your goal? To build yourself up, to reconcile or to move on and do as much reprisal damage as you can? Depending on your goal....certain things may not work toward that end.

I'm pretty certain that's not what's being discussed in this thread. It isn't about "beating someone up," but rather getting things out into the open. Those who have deemed it "punishment" in this thread are those who have been or still are involved in an A.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm pretty certain that's not what's being discussed in this thread. It isn't about "beating someone up," but rather getting things out into the open.

 

It can be called either way.

[Lucky_One]

I totally disagree with what she did, but no one can argue that the OW in Houston told the truth about the affair. She was honest and open, right?

 

Which goes to the point - if everyone wants openness and honesty, is it "bad" for the OW to tell BS "Hey your H is having sex with me." What about "Hey, your H is having sex with me in your bed." Or "Hey, your H is having sex with me and he says your p*ssy smells like a rotten herring." Or "Hey, your H is having sex with me and he says that he only married you because he felt trapped, has never loved you, and is only there because he thinks you are emotionally abusive to the children."

 

Is there a point where "openness and honesty" goes overboard? Who gets to pick that point? If the BS would prefer honesty, would it hurt far too bad and give perpetual inner wounds to hear ALL of the truth?

[thomasb]

Wow, and you want to be with a person who would say that crap. More power to you. And to think I told my OW to shut her trap for calling my wife wifey! I seriously doubt many decent human beings speak like that about their wives. If they did I would steer a wide berth!