Questions ABOUT non-believers

[bye2past]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

Here is how I look at it: xyz believes in God. I do not. That doesn't mean I'm against it. As for those with similar belief systems (Christians have many different branches of their faith--from Catholic to methodist, etc.) All they can do is be a proponent for their own way of believing. Lead by example, witness to others when they can (not brow-beat people!) and if someone listening doesn't agree with it, they just walk away or say "I don't agree" and let it drop. If Moose's faith tells him that "To believe without knowing shows our trust in Him." is true, do you really think that anyone can tell him that he's wrong? Who's to say he is wrong? His way of belief simply isn't your way, or my way. He presents his view and belief system - you can present yours and people who hear both (or more views) will make up their own minds on how they want to worship, who they want to worship, or even if they want to worship. Each person accepts his or her own proof.

Hmmm...thanks HR. I guess my problem doesn't so much lie within a particular person's beliefs as much as when that person tries to "prove" s/he is right. Religion by it's very nature is illogical -- it was (partially) created to answer unanswerable questions. So to try and prove things using its belief structure just seems utterly appalling to me.

 

I mean, it's not like I walk around town with a body placard, screaming about how wrong Christianity is...it's just that some things strike me in such a way that I have to express myself, for better or for worse. (What can I say? I'm a musician - I'm used to doing that.)

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by YellowLioness

God can see everything: he is infinite.

We cannot: we are finite.

 

To us, because we cannot ultimately see the ends of the ripples that our choices create, it is free will.

 

Say that for lunch today you can have your choice of pizza, chicken, salad, sushi, whatever.

 

Say it is sort of predetermined (by Fate, Destiny, God) that if you eat chicken, you will get food poisoning. If you eat the pizza, you will gain a pound. If you get the salad, you will freak out because you get a bug in it. If you eat the sushi, you will be full and content until dinner that night.

 

Ok, so you CHOOSE which lunch you want, and thusly take the consequences. You don't KNOW that whatever fast food restaurant pissed of its employees by granting a 10% pay cut, and thusly decided to take out their aggression on the consumers.

 

This is how I see things. We make thousands choices every day, but God knows the outcome of each of those choices.

 

I'm trying to see all points here -- so, life is like a giant chess game. We are the pieces and God moves us? I'm trying to grasp this concept of free-will, not trying to be sarcastic.

 

I can choose chocoloate or vanilla ice cream. I have free will to do that. I choose chocolate. God knew all along that I would choose chocolate because He knows everything. Then, my free-will has boundaries. It's like, I can have a huge ant farm. I put the ants between the glass panes with enough soil for them to build a little ant city. I know and allow them to build whatever city they want, they don't know that they are within glass panes, because they don't know what glass panes ARE. It's just an acceptable, taken for granted, boundary. I don' t know or care exactly which way they build their highways or houses--I only care that they are building them. They choose to go to the left or right or connect two tunnels here or there. They have free will within the invisible boundaries that I set. I am their God. Is that kind of how you mean?

[Moose]

Well put Lioness...we would be a great team......hehe

 

bye2past,

 

Having choices and the ability to make these choices is having a free will. EVEN if God knows the outcome. I find it confusing that you say we don't. Now, if we KNEW all that God knows, then yes you would be right. Only because we would then know the outcome.

[bye2past]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

I don' t know or care exactly which way they build their highways or houses--I only care that they are building them. They choose to go to the left or right or connect two tunnels here or there.

Except that, if you were the Ant God in the same way God is to Christians, you would know every last detail about where they build tunnels and what they do.

 

If I was that God, that would seem pretty boring to me after a while, because I'd know everything already. What would be the point of having an ant farm then??

[bye2past]

Originally posted by Moose

Having choices and the ability to make these choices is having a free will. EVEN if God knows the outcome. I find it confusing that you say we don't. Now, if we KNEW all that God knows, then yes you would be right. Only because we would then know the outcome.

Allow me to tell you the definition of "Free Will" that I'm using...

 

I would define free will as having the ability to determine the course of my own future based on my own decisions.

 

I would NOT define free will as simply having a choice, and making a choice.

 

The very fact that God knows the outcome is why you can't have free will, if you believe in the Christian God. (Remember, he's never wrong!)

[Moose]

Hokey, good analogy, but yes you would know, and care how they build, in fact, you would know exactley how many grains of sand are in these panes of glass.

 

BUT They would NOT.

[bye2past]

...and therefore have no say in their own future. They could not, of their own volition, determine the course their own future, because the choices that lie ahead of them are already known and have been chosen. Basically, they've already made the choice. I guess they live their lives figuring out WHY they made them.

 

(Matrix, anyone?)

[Moose]

I would define free will as having the ability to determine the course of my own future based on my own decisions.

 

And you do!!!!! I do, Hokey does, Yellowlioness does, everyone on earth does!!!! But NOONE can see the whole picture except God.

[Moose]

and therefore have no say in their own future. They could not, of their own volition, determine the course their own future, because the choices that lie ahead of them are already known and have been chosen. Basically, they've already made the choice. I guess they live their lives figuring out WHY they made them.

 

 

The choices are already known, but not by THEM.

[bye2past]

Originally posted by Moose

And you do!!!!! I do, Hokey does, Yellowlioness does, everyone on earth does!!!! But NOONE can see the whole picture except God.

Moose, the fact that God sees the whole picture is WHY you don't have free will!! He doesn't just see the big picture, he sees everything down to the last detail. He sees it, knows it, and isn't wrong about it! How could you possibly have free will if you believe that??

[bye2past]

Originally posted by Moose

The choices are already known, but not by THEM.

It's irrelevant if the choices are known by them or not. They don't have to know the choices they're going to make. The fact is that they've already made the choices, and can't do any differently from those choices. Why? Because of the Christian notion of God. They can't choose any path solely of their own accord...they're only making predetermined choices, which aren't a result of their own free will.

 

Look, again, this is in any beginning Philosophy textbook...I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just telling you that it's been proven time and again that the notion of free will doesn't hold true if you believe in a Christian God. It's not just me who thinks this way!

[HokeyReligions]

Then I don't see it either. If God knows everything and how everything will turn out, then He also knows every decision that you will make. That's not what I would call free-will. That, to me, is God's will. You only think you are making a choice, but in actuality you are only doing what God knew you would do all along. If you do something other than that -- that would mean that God doesn't know everything.

 

 

 

If I know every grain of sand an every atom inside my ant city and I know where every speck will be placed as they build their city, I know every misstep an ant will have, I know which ant will run to a corner and want to build his own private place where the other ants can't see him - but I can, and I know all of this and how it's going to play out and when and how each ant dies and is born and how the ant city will end, if I know all of this before I even place the first grain of sand between the glass---then the ants do not have free will. They are following a path that I see, but they don't. They only think that they are making choices, but I know that they are doing what they were meant to do, exactly the way that I meant them to do it.

 

It's a fine line and goes back to belief. The ants believe they are making choices, but I (as their God) know that they are not--they are following their predetermined course. So, is it only a choice because you believe it to be? Perhaps that's why I can't see it from your POV -- I don't hold the same beliefs and those beliefs are necessary to fully understand the idology and concepts of free-will within a Christian setting?

[Moose]

Man, this is confusing isn't it.....I guess I don't know how to put it in words. I just know that God wants us to have willing hearts to worship Him with. That's why He gives us choices.

[bye2past]

Originally posted by Moose

Man, this is confusing isn't it.....I guess I don't know how to put it in words. I just know that God wants us to have willing hearts to worship Him with. That's why He gives us choices.

Yes, it's very confusing....I didn't want to believe it at first either. In fact, I pissed off my professor because I kept grilling him with questions similar to the ones you've asked.

 

God wants you to choose, not be forced, to worship Him. I get that. The thing is Moose, he already knows if you're going to choose to worship him or not. If you believe in the Christian God (all-knowing, all-good, and infallible), then you don't have a choice in the matter, simply because he knows the "choices" you're going to make. He knows everything and he's never wrong.

 

You're still not really being forced to believe in Him...I mean, He's not outright telling you to believe. It's just that if you DO believe in Him, those supposed "choices" of yours have already been made, and He knows the outcomes of them all. And since he's never wrong, you can't do differently than what he knows. Therefore, you have no real choice in the course of your future....because God knows it already!

 

It took a few hours for the concept to sink in with me. I now see this free will argument as a test of open-mindedness. There were a few Baptist people in our class in college that were outraged, and were just so resistant to this very clear, logical argument. So don't feel weird if it doesn't make sense right away.

[bye2past]

Originally posted by Moose

I just know that God wants us to have willing hearts to worship Him with. That's why He gives us choices.

Do you know that in the same way as you know 2 + 2 = 4? I mean, there is just no question that 2 + 2 = 4. But do you really know that about God (whoever He, or it, is)? I'm not asking if you believe it to be true, I'm asking if you really know it to be true.

 

This is my problem with Christianity -- over 1000s of years, the church has thought of all kinds of ways to answer questions borne from your natural curiosity. For example:

 

"It doesn't matter if you believe in God, because he believes in you." -- Wow. Just wow.

 

"I just know that God wants us to have willing hearts to worship Him with. That's why He gives us choices." -- This one's to cover up the fact that you really don't have a choice in your future if you believe. (No offense, Moose. Just taking it at face value. Hopefully, you can also see that now.)

 

"It says so in the Bible." -- So? What kind of authority is the Bible? It's merely a storybook. It's no historical doctrine, like our Constitution.

 

"I just believe." -- Okay, then you're totally closed to idea that you might be wrong. This is equivalent to a child saying, "I don't wanna."

 

There are so many that I've heard before, that it's really disappointing to me when I see or hear someone actually believes in it. I'd like to think that humans have essentially matured out of religion. It's very storybook-like, with Heaven as a perfect place where nothing bad happens ever, or Hell as a huge pit of fire and death with monsters and a villain (Satan).

 

To make matters worse, they try to scare you into being good by talking about Lucifer, and how he used to be an perfect Angel!! ....but as soon as he challenged God, down to Hell he went. So, kids, you be a good Christian soldiers, and never question God!! Otherwise you're going to be with the monsters in Hell!!

 

And then if you try to have a conversation with the more religious ones, forget about it....the conversation is in 3 stages:

1) Engagement. The religious person "bites" and finally tries to talk about the religion.

2) Struggle. Inevitably, the religious person can't deal with the questioning and gets flustered.

3) Detachment. The religious person resorts to the "I don't want to talk about this anymore" excuse, and/or simply walks away. OR....

3a) Enlightenment. The religious person is able to see past their religious blinders and realize a truth.

 

This kind of religion, where it can get people so zealous, is what breeds extremism/fundamentalism. And THAT'S my real problem with Christianity -- the birth and continuance of extremism. Sure, we all can just let the fundamentalists believe what they want....but those are the people who kill others in the name of religion. Should we really just turn a blind eye to that in the name of "acceptance?"

[Papillon]

Free will is a total and utter myth. We are biological blobs of matter responding to physical inputs from the outside world. Just like a ball bounces when you throw it against the wall, so we bounce around according to the forces applied to us.

 

Everything is like a giant chemical reaction, and everything runs according to fixed physical rules. That implies that if you know all the parameters of the reaction, you can predict it's outcome. So you could say I believe in destiny, but nothing can change it, and no-one is messing with the reaction. The fact that I am typing this right now was physically predetermined long ago - I'm just at this stage in the "reaction".

 

It's quite an odd expererience when you get your head around this concept.

[RowanRavyn]

I didn't read "every" post in this thread. While the thread started off with a tangible attitude, the responses I have seen have been intelligent, thoughtful and thought provoking. I have to say that in particular I have been impressed by Dyermaker.

 

The thought I would like to share is not part of an argument. Its a simple statement of fact:

 

What we do in our belief system is Ours no one else's. You are in complete control of what you believe, including the responsibilities there of. Its personal and individual. Even Christ said that this is a personal choice.

 

If you are looking at it from a religious perspective, which ever one you chose to look at things from, it boils down to this:

 

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Do what thou wilt harming none.

 

Look closer at yourself than others.

 

And if you want to worship, explore, contemplate, or condemn Christ, make sure that you are actually looking at him, and not those who associate themselves with his name. Christians are human beings who screw up on a regular basis.

 

As to praying for a sick child. Any parent who has had a seriously sick child, a child at deaths door cries out in their being at this, even if a prayer (to whatever God ) is never uttered from their lips, the cry of their spirit IMO would be honored. A child is innocent of its parents beliefs. To ask such a question with such...negative emotion behind it...implies that the parent isn't doing everything possible for their child and in the end becomes the kind of guilt measure many Christians employ to keep other Christians "inline". Please don't' be so disrespectful.

 

These holidays belong to all of us. They are more importantly than worship, tradition. They are a thread that ties families together, and reminds us of where we came from. Even if we have chosen a different spiritual path.

 

OR you could be nasty and say that some folks are pressured into participating for fear of persecution should their true beliefs be found out.

 

Just a few thoughts.

[Papillon]

HOW MUCH WATER DO I HAVE?

[HokeyReligions]

I was talking w/ my husband last night about the whole free-will thing. In all the churches he's ever been to, it has never been answered in any logical way a human can understand. The answer comes down to one word. FAITH. If a person has faith in their God, then they accept that not everything God says will make logical sense to them. Human logic is not the same as divine logic and we humans cannot expect to apply what we know and can proove with technology and math and psychology and physics, etc. to God, because God is not human and not confined to our limited capabilities of understanding. We don't know our limits, but HE does. So Christians have FAITH. If God says we have free-will, then we do. Whatever God's definition of free-will is, it's probably beyond our understanding so we just have to accept it.

 

THAT at least, is a concept I can wrap my mind around.

[Moose]

Hokey,

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who was up last night studying and questioning on the subject, and you are absolutley right, and, I have more:

 

We all would agree that there has always been Good and Evil, Correct? I would have to say that the majority is going to say, “YES”. This is clear in our eyes every day. I’m not going to get into full detail. But before God created the Earth or Man, there was a fallen out of an Angel, Lucifer, who was jealous of God’s holiness, and pureness and thought, “Ok, I want to be a God.” Then when Man was created it was in, “Our”, image according to scripture. Which indicates God wasn’t alone at all when the Earth and Man was created. Follow so far?

 

Now, God is the most powerful of these other entities, that’s why us Christians claim that there is only one true God.

 

God is so pure and so holy that He CANNOT be in the presence of sin. (Which happens to be why Lucifer chose Evil to be, “God” of.) That’s why when Jesus was bearing humanity’s sins on the Cross, He asked God, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?” In a sense Jesus was asking, ”If you’re all knowing, all powerful, why do I still have to go through this??!!!”

 

It is because since God is the most holy and the most pure, He cannot even be in the presence of sin. He couldn’t even look upon His Son because of the sins of humanity.

 

God Created the Heavens and the Earth and gave the Earth to man to rule over. (Genesis), Notice, the key word here is RULE. Since Lucifer became, “Ruler of Evil”, even when God already knows all, He still cannot be as pure or as holy as He is if He’s in the presence of sin. Therefore He will turn His back on it. That, is what leaves us wide open to choice, thus a free will.

 

Even since God knows the final outcome, and who’s going to be a part of it, God is still not “WILLING”, to be in the presence of sin . Why? Because just like us parents, you will sacrifice whatever you have to for the benefit of your Children. It is HIS CHOICE, to stay out of the presence of sin to stay pure and holy FOR US.

 

Even God told us in scripture that we will not have full undertanding or knowledge until He deems us worthy. So as for me, I put my trust in God first, then whatever men, such as bye2past, say to convince me otherwise, I will take and digest, but ultimately, it’s my FAITH that tells me what to believe.

 

I do wish everyone the best of luck when it comes to understanding or at least trying to understand what it is they will believe.

[YellowLioness]

Very true, Moose.

 

Now, what I posted earlier, that's just sort of how I see things.

 

My point being that it IS free will if you do not know the outcome of your choices.

 

If you DID know the outcomes, you would only choose certain things; probably the things that would turn out best for you.

 

Every time we make a choice, from a human perspective, it is free will. From God's perspective...well, how can we even debate God's perspective? Lol. Most on LS can't even agree whether or not God exists, and if God did exist, what he/she/it would think.

 

God does not grant us infinite knowlege so that we can have free will.

 

I don't know if this makes sense to any one but me. lol.

 

Hokey, yeah, it sort of is like the ant thing... Only, I think that God is a part of all of us, and a part of everything. As an "ant God" we're still only humans, and therefore part of a finite dimension.

 

I also believe that people are reincarnated, and that we choose this life while in spirit form to best suit what lessons we yet need to learn.

[Moose]

Interesting concept Yellowlioness.....Even my Father-in-law remembers being in a car accident and dying.....not in this life, but another......he's a very devout Baptist Sunday School teacher, and has been a deacon several times. If he were to tell any one from our Church, he'd be laughed out.....I'm honored that he told me!

[moimeme]

Love is an ephemeral emotion, and it's existence or not is a moot point. Love fades, your alleged god alledgedly does not, and is alledgedly real and not ephemeral. So the two are not comparable

 

Um. I used love as an analogy. The point is not to continue with the analogy but to understand that anything which is only a concept (Love, God) cannot be proven. It doesn't mater whether Love is ephemeral or not - its existence in a nanosecond, if you will, is the same as its eternal existence. I am not arguing the properties of love, I am arguing that because it is only a concept and not something concrete, its existence is not provable.

 

 

Moi, what happens if God's will isn't your will?

 

Like, what if God called you to go to Alaska and witness to the Inuits?

 

When you say that God wouldn't want you to do something that you wouldn't want to do, are you saying that God would change your mind about wanting to minister?

 

I don't know; at first I agreed, then I realized I had more questions.

 

In this case, Faye, my answer was the answer given to me specifically. But if God called me to go to Alaska and 'witness' to the Inuit, then I'd likely go and love it. I imagine that I'd be given whatever strengths I'd need to do whatever was wanted. Actually, I have been. It was very liberating, I have to tell you. I'm still nothing like a fundamentalist. I'm not a go-to-church-every-weeker or anything, but I definitely *know* God is there.

 

Moimeme, you can't compare my "knowing" my daughter will drink to God's knowledge of everything. Remember, the Christian notion of God knows everything and He is never wrong.

 

Christians believe, however, that God knows everything without question, AND that's he's never wrong. If that's the case, then if you believe in Him, how can you possibly have free will??

 

I don't know how I can explain this so you understand. That God knows what you will do doesn't change your ability to do it. Somehow you seem to equate 'free will' with the ability to surprise God. The fact is that you can do whatever you are going to do, like the ants in Hoke's ant farm. That God Hoke knows what that will be only means that God Hoke has infinitely greater knowledge than you. That God knows in advance what you will do doesn't mean you didn't choose to do it freely. I am not sure how it is that you don't see the distinction. His knowing is completely separate from your doing. That he's not surprised means nothing at all to the outcome.

 

It's an illusion because God already knows which you're going to pick. You simply don't have a real choice.

 

And since God's never wrong, and he already knows what you're going to choose, how can you choose differently

Religion by it's very nature is illogical

 

The very fact that God knows the outcome is why you can't have free will, if you believe in the Christian God. (Remember, he's never wrong!)

 

but you simply CAN'T change your path, because God already knows what that path is!! If you change that path, you prove him wrong!! And God's never wrong, isnt' that right?

 

No. Doing whatever you want doesn't mean you can surprise God! The two situations are unrelated.

 

seeing such blatant stupidity

(with other arguments that prove how crazy religious arguments are).

 

I hate how the anti-theists feel they must ridicule people who believe. That you feel we are stupid and you superior is obnoxious, frankly.

 

I always find it terribly amusing that anti-theists can barely stop their heads from cracking in half,so wide are their smug grins. Awash in orgies of self-congratulation on the spectacular scholarship that has led them to their conclusions, they must ache from collective back-patting.

 

[color=blue]However, the fact remains, and it is the most delightful of ironies, that the very people who feel that they are indeed the most brilliant of all humans are somehow possessed of the utter conviction that, by dint of their existence in the here and now, and because they are able to apprehend some elements of science and some morsels of logic, they are also possessed of such extreme genius that they can confidently predict, in the here and now, that they already understand all that has ever been and SHALL EVER BE KNOWN and therefore can state quite categorically that there is no Divine. [/color]

 

Never mind that every successive generation has thought itself the apex of knowledge and had a lock on the true nature of possibility. Only to be proved wrong again and again. Never mind that the earth actually does circumnavigate the sun, that people can fly, and that people absolutely need more than 64k of memory - still

every succeeding generation of 'atheists' completely fails to comprehend that [color=blue]their membership as an atheist can only be assured if they in fact do possess the sum of all knowledge unto centuries hence[/color]. And that is simply not possible.

 

That human imagination is unable to conceive of flying does not mean it is not possible to fly, after all. Just because the limited human imagining is incapable of comprehending God doesn't mean He doesn't exist and that humans in generations long in the future won't completely understand just as we send people to the moon - a feat that no person in Christ's time would have believed possible.

 

Congratulations on your orgies of self-congratulation over the logic and brilliance you believe you have. I'm sure they are very satisfying. I'd recommend acupuncture for the shoulder strains, but, doubtless, your comprehension of all that exists prevents you from believing that it works.

[YellowLioness]

In this case, Faye, my answer was the answer given to me specifically. But if God called me to go to Alaska and 'witness' to the Inuit, then I'd likely go and love it

 

YellowLioness...not Fayebelle. We're the best of buddies, but we're not the same person.

 

 

 

Alrighty, I think I see what you're saying with that, and I also see why you're not afraid of God's calling. Very cool. Thanks for the reply.

[YellowLioness]

I think its really cool that you're so open!

 

I used to be a southern baptist and by the time I left everyone thought I was a heretic.

 

There was even a rumor that I was a witch because of how I believed.

 

I'm glad you're open. I've said that before, its just really a breath of fresh air to me.

 

 

BTW, I think I say "cool" too much. I need a new word.