dyermaker Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Originally posted by shamen Don't worry about the sad part, it's cool. The written word is always so much more open to interpretation than the spoken... Isn't that why there's this problem to begin with? On the other hand, being quite honest, I haven't seen a sufficient answer as to why a non-believer would celebrate the birth of Christ when they don't believe in any of such. I don't take off for celebrations outside of my religion just so that I can exchange some gifts or eat a meal with my fam....or just because it's a paid holiday. That seems, uh, convenient? They're not celebrating Christ's birth. What you do on your paid holidays are your prerogative. Do you plant a tree on Arbor Day? Do you spend time thanking Veterans on Veterans Day? We used to get Coloumbus Day off, until the hippies complained about his Indian-killing. Anyway, that happens to be *my* opinion. Different people make the world go round. Lord knows if we were all the same....well, it'd be quite boring and redundant. To each their own. Peace. That's part of my summa theologica--I think that God knows his people are different, and reveals himself to people in different ways. The fact that Sourabh's a hindu, Billy Bob's a baptist, and Steven's an agnostic just means that's how God manifests himself in their lives. The intention was for you to find a way to connect with God, not focus on making sure you're the only "correct" one. Catholicism is as correct as I need to be, I didn't choose it as much as God chose it for me, and it may be difficult, but it's what I'm working towards. If it seperated me from God more than helped my relationship with Him, I'd look elsewhere. Remove the beam from your own eye. Link to post Share on other sites
Author tiki Posted May 21, 2004 Author Share Posted May 21, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker Remove the beam from your own eye. Funny how quickly you say that. Go do it for yourself. This forum is ate up with people that think they're experts on religion. You aren't. Either am I. At least I can admit to that. I admit to that firstly, by approaching a board with genuine questions. Then you guys slam me. All of you are right, you guys are such the experts. Do you never have questions? Didn't think so. What a bunch of winners. Link to post Share on other sites
saintfrancis Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I have to say Dyer, you are one of the few people I know (outside of my parents) who have a strong religious belief and yet are actually balanced, objective and reasonable when it comes to your faith. I really admire you for that. If I was sardonic - and who am I kiddin', I was indeed - it's because I know far too MANY so-called "Christians" who have a nasty superiority complex because they think their beliefs are the only "right way" and that everyone else is going to Hell. That's such BS, and it infuriates me no end that there are so many, pardon me, but I believe ignorant people that hold that belief. My mom and I had a long discussion about this once. You'd be hard-pressed to find a more devout person than she. I asked her point blank about this business of those who believe differently going to Hell. She said, no one truly knows the mind of God. Those who presume to speak for Him suffer from human arrogance. No one human being on earth has the inside track on what God is really thinking or how he will deal with each and every one of his children in the afterlife. A person who thinks that they do places themselves on the level of deity, which in itself is a grave sin. Hm. Go mom! Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Originally posted by tikibrandy Funny how quickly you say that. Go do it for yourself. This forum is ate up with people that think they're experts on religion. You aren't. Either am I. At least I can admit to that. I admit to that firstly, by approaching a board with genuine questions. Then you guys slam me. All of you are right, you guys are such the experts. Do you never have questions? Didn't think so. What a bunch of winners. The "beam" quote has nothing to do with qualifications or questions. It has to do with condemnation--remove the beam from your own eye, before attempting to remove the sliver from your brothers. I've never condemned anyone for their religious beliefs. You're on a (rude) tangent of irrelevancy. You angered many people by implying that December 25th is YOUR holiday--when in fact, the Christians stole it from other groups of people. Other than that, your questions were answered. Link to post Share on other sites
shamen Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Tikibrandy: I truly hope that I was did not state anything offensive. I feel like I was stating my own opinions, rather than slamming. I don't think anyone here was really trying to slam you to hurt your feelings, but just state opinions. Also, as was stated earlier, Xmas (as I like to call it) was originally based on the pagan holiday of Winter Solstice. That's why the holiday is based around that time (Solstice is Dec. 21); the Christians wanted to convert the pagans, so they tried to build their holidays around the old ones. Scholars do not believe that Christ was actually born during this time either, if I remember correctly. Again, the tree comes from Europe (I think that this was a German custom), which has nothing to do with where Christ was born. Many of the traditions were borrowed from the pagan customs. I do not feel in any way like a religious expert. But I do know that the above statements are facts. The opinions that I've stated about my own views were truly meant to try to answer a question. Really. I don't feel that I've put myself on a pedestal...? I get time off for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. I don't celebrate them, but they are built into the work schedule because there are so many Jewish people where I work. I also, in my first post, tried truly to explain why I celebrate Christmas with my family and also stated that TXsgiving is a very important holiday to my family and myself even though we're not really celebrating the coming together of the Europeans and the Native Americans. It's all about family and community. Peace and love, you know? Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 You obviously have no idea how you might offend people with your provocative and self-righteous tone whenever you discuss the subject of religion. That's scary. #1) Why do atheists find it okay to celebrate Easter or Christmas? I want opinions here. Don't give me this "commercialized" crap, if you don't believe, don't celebrate. I don't take off for Hanukkah. I'm not of that belief, so I don't celebrate!!! Take the above, for example, in which you come right out of the starting block and dictate to others what they should or should not do on specific holidays, completely ignorant of the origins of the holiday and its traditions. Anyone reading that would hardly assume you're open for opinions. You may not have intended to be offensive, but that's how you came across. And in my own personal experience, quite frankly, that's how many Christians come across. #2) If an atheist parent has a dying child, why would they not pray for their childs recovery? Wouldn't it be something any decent person would do, to pray for your OWN child? ***Why would the *chance* of prayer working be passed up?*** <-- if it were your child, wouldn't you take that chance, that gamble? I'd say "number two" is an appropriate title for the passage above because that's exactly what I think of it: it's a bunch of s***. "Any decent person" would hope for the best - whether they believe in Jesus Christ or not. Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Why does it seem that people who have strong religious beliefs only pray to God/Jesus in their time of need? Or when they want something? I think that it is a little selfish, but hey that is just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 that's how many Christians come across Please, please PLEASE distinguish between fundamentalist 'Christians' and all others. Just because some people call themselves 'Christians' does not mean they behave as Christ asked people to. You can be in a barn and call yourself 'horse' but that doesn't make you one. Bottom line: you can tell a Christian by his behaviour, not by what he chooses to call himself. If he hates, he's not Christian because Christ preached love and forgiveness. He also told people to not judge. So anybody calling himself 'Christian' who goes against Christ's dictates is a fake. Don't be fooled. Link to post Share on other sites
Author tiki Posted May 24, 2004 Author Share Posted May 24, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme that's how many Christians come across Please, please PLEASE distinguish between fundamentalist 'Christians' and all others. Just because some people call themselves 'Christians' does not mean they behave as Christ asked people to. You can be in a barn and call yourself 'horse' but that doesn't make you one. Bottom line: you can tell a Christian by his behaviour, not by what he chooses to call himself. If he hates, he's not Christian because Christ preached love and forgiveness. He also told people to not judge. So anybody calling himself 'Christian' who goes against Christ's dictates is a fake. Don't be fooled. In my church we ADMIT to not being perfect. That must be the difference between yours and mine. We *know* we are not perfect. Jesus was the only perfect one. That'd be like saying that just because we make mistakes, we are not christians. Not true. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Originally posted by shortbus74 Why does it seem that people who have strong religious beliefs only pray to God/Jesus in their time of need? Or when they want something? I think that it is a little selfish, but hey that is just my opinion. Well, this is coming from an old agnostic, but my mother has a very strong belief and I've known a few christians whom I would label as devout, and I see them pray daily and most of their prayers are prayers of thanks. They are a very optimistic group! Although they do also pray heavily during a crisis. It's the Sunday Christians for whom I do not have any respect and I've met my share of them too! People who only pray or live their lives according to their beliefs on Sunday when they get dressed up and show off to each other. It seems as though their faith only lives on Sunday and they use it as an excuse to 'sin' the rest of the week. There are many others who fall in between, who strive to live the life they believe their God wants them to live every day, and falling short of their own expectations sometimes. As for celebrating a holiday that one doesn't believe in, I can kind of see that point of view. In a way it may seem that those who partake of the festivities which are traditionally associated with a religious belief, are in a way disrespecting or making fun of that belief. Perhaps twisting something meant to be emotionally sacred into a party or event for the sake of fun with no thought to the religious implications. However, if, for example, holidays are to be defined by their religious connections and only say, Christians are allowed to take two days off and celebrate at Christmas, and those who do not believe must work on those days and must not be allowed to decorate or give gifts, etc. -- then there should be two other days during the year where agnostics and atheistics can have two days off, and have their own forms of decorations and ways of celebrating being agnostics or atheistics, and the Christians must work on those days. It would be far to costly for everyone-business owners and those who promote gifts and decorations, etc. to segregate these celebrations. If we kept the ladder going down and separated every single belief recognized, every day would be a holiday for some group. I, for one, celebrate my winter holiday with a decorated tree and gifts and tinsel and homemade fudge and parties, and use it as a time to see old friends, have some fun and enjoy the company of others. I love to give gifts but can't afford to do it all year. I love to make homemade fudge and cookies, etc. and share with people--but I can't afford to do it all year. So I use my winter holiday and my spring break. Out of respect for my husband and mother and their belief, we have a nativity as a decoration so that they can can have a visual representation of their belief and they can celebrate that belief in their hearts. Christians may celebrate with those same things like trees and tinsel, etc., but add to it their church activities, prayers, and pageants and THAT is what makes their celebration one of Christ/God. Perhaps the offense is because agnostics celebrate a winter holiday at the same time? Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hokey.. I could not agree with you more about the "Sundays". I used to be a catholic, and I had such a hard time accepting the beliefs. My ex husband was Jewish, I asked him about the fundamentals of their beliefs and he shared with me. I started doing more and more research on the religion and I really liked their views so I converted.. I really feel that there is no right or wrong religion. I do not care if a person is athiest or agnostic, as long as you try hard to be a good person in this life then you are gold in my book. Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Please, please PLEASE distinguish between fundamentalist 'Christians' and all others I do, but I'm only telling you my experiences. I grew up in a place where religious zealots routinely try to hijack local politics and otherwise meddle in the private affairs of other people, and it p!sses me off. And it was always this same "holier-than-thou/I'm better than you/you're going to hell if you don't believe what I believe" attitude that we're seeing from tiki. Religion should be voluntary, and it should be kept to one's self. Link to post Share on other sites
Stun Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Personally I don't believe in organized religion. Christ didn't have a church to preach in, and he sure as hell didn't require 10% of your annual income. He went where ever he could, and never asked for anything in return. All that he recieved was given to him. And not a required donation. I also agree with the pagan stuff. I say, as long as you believe in something you're fine. Isn't that what's important? And who will really argue about getting free stuff and holiday pay. C'mon...anyone? Link to post Share on other sites
Hypatia Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Having faith is entirely different than being religious. It's like squares and rectangles: A square can be a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't always a square. You can have faith and be religious, but you don't have to be religious to have faith. I think Stun's last post and saintfrancis's last post are right on the money. I was raised to be Methodist. I always went to a painfully boring church. What did I get out of religion? Nothing. I had no idea why I had to memorize all this stuff and be confirmed. All the rituals seemed pointless to me because you can't force someone to believe in something. It just didn't work for me. I never got anything out of praying, I never conceived how with so many religions in the country how one of them could be the only one that's right... Everything in Christianity is a story, and as it's been pointed out (and proven with research), more than partially based on trying to convert pagans! It's impossible to believe in fiction, in my opinion. I'd rather believe that if there is a higher being that it covers everyone, not just Christians, not just Jews, not just Muslims, etc., everybody. But that's just me. I won't tell anyone else they're wrong as long as they do the same. The universal "golden rule." However, if I'd gone to a fun church, I could very well be spewing fire and brimstone. Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 wonderful point Hypatia.... Link to post Share on other sites
Stun Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 I forgot to mention that there was a very old text found, and was believed to be the closest thing to the actual words of Christ. I know it was found for sure, and that it was in aramaic (is that how it's spelled?). I'll have to do some research on that before I say anything else though. Link to post Share on other sites
shortbus74 Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Stun... If I am correct they are the Dead Sea Scrolls..... Link to post Share on other sites
Stun Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 That could be it shortbus. I'm still checking it out incase that isn't it, and because I'd like to know more about it. I've found out that the text is considered to be heresy. That's about it, I haven't had the chance to look much more. Busy schedule lately. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's (sic) described in the New Testament. http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html More info on the Dead Sea Scrolls: http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/ Link to post Share on other sites
4getful Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 they celebrate it because it's a good holiday. And atheist should not be blamed if they dont believe in God (not that much, if somebody was pointing a gun to their head, maybe they will), some might have experienced a lot of bad things in their life that they think God could have done something. Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 shortbus74 I really feel that there is no right or wrong religion.How about Satanism? Wahhabism? How about religions that include the ritualistic killing of people? Stun And not a required donation.They ask for donations, but they don’t require it. When was the last time you saw somebody kicked out of Church for not donating? Hypatia Everything in Christianity is a story, and as it's been pointed out (and proven with research), more than partially based on trying to convert pagans! It's impossible to believe in fiction, in my opinion.Jesus did exist and he founded a group that were eventually called Christians. It is a historical fact. Did he perform all of those miracles, and was he born from a virgin? I don’t know. Link to post Share on other sites
Stun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Originally posted by BlockHead They ask for donations, but they don’t require it. When was the last time you saw somebody kicked out of Church for not donating? Actually my family was kicked out. The pastor approached my dad and told him that we'd be kicked out if we didn't contribute 10%. We found out later that he was using church funds to write his book. He is no longer in practice. Regardless, that statement was totally irrelevant, as it was a personal experience and does not apply to everyone. My bad, and thanks for pointing that out. Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Stun Actually my family was kicked out. The pastor approached my dad and told him that we'd be kicked out if we didn't contribute 10%. We found out later that he was using church funds to write his book. He is no longer in practice.Which Church? What denomination? Link to post Share on other sites
Stun Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 It was a Lutheran church. Umm...Trinity Lutheran. I think. Haven't been there in a while ;P. Link to post Share on other sites
TreeHugger Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 and there is a christian faith, huge in Utah, and if you do not give 10%, you will not make it to the righteous heaven (serious)...the highest of all heavens? Only if you can pay...go figure Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts