Inside my affair, insights and reflections

[whichwayisup]

^Exactly my point. I lied to my AP at times.

 

I've always said since MW or MM are so capable and able to lie to their spouses, the people who they said vows to, shared a life with, had kids with, why on earth wouldn't they lie also lie to their AP's too.

 

You will find some won't like your answers, this is why in the past some MM don't stay on LS as they get run out of here. Keep being honest on here, share your thoughts and experiences, even if others don't like it, it's something everybody should read and atleast take into account and maybe apply it in their own situations.

[jwi71]

She has been a loyal and devoted and loving mother -- how she is behaving now does not negate that fact.

 

But now, due to her own pain, she is using the only pull she has with him by threatening to never let him see his children, threatening to tell them what a horrible man he is and always has been (which, of course, begs the question 'why did you marry him?' and 'why do you still want to be married to him?'...)

 

She is positioning him as the enemy and beginning the narrative that says "your dad is leaving US" as opposed to "your dad is leaving ME".

 

What she is unable to realize - again, I understand it is because of her own very ripe pain - is that she will harm her children by casting him as a father who didn't love them and didn't want them and so he left them.

 

Provided this is true (her actions), then she is clearly wrong. And you are right, her actions, in time, will come back to her. The kids will see that they way her mother describes their father and the way he treats them (and their mother) will not align. And that incongruence will cause them to question what their mother has said (because I believe that most people innately trust actions over words). Mommy says "A" but daddy does "B"...why is that is a natural question and one their mother will be hard pressed to answer.

 

So all he can do is leave and react to her words and deeds. He can't legislate her words and actions (not in a realistic and meaningful way anyway). All HE can do is leave, treat them and her well and hope the mother doesn't act that way.

 

And if she does, allow family therapy to take root and work through it.

Even if she doesn't I suggest family therapy.

 

She only has as much power as HE gives her. Think about it - you'll see its true.

[Silly_Girl]

She only has as much power as HE gives her. Think about it - you'll see its true.

 

If only it WERE true.

[despicableME]

Sorry for the t/j.

 

I've always said since MW or MM are so capable and able to lie to their spouses, the people who they said vows to, shared a life with, had kids with, why on earth wouldn't they lie also lie to their AP's too.

 

If you REALY believe your AP is not lying to you in some way, then you're pretty gullible. Why would you believe he/she is being TOTALLY honest with you if he's lying to his/her spouse???

 

You will find some won't like your answers, this is why in the past some MM don't stay on LS as they get run out of here. Keep being honest on here, share your thoughts and experiences, even if others don't like it, it's something everybody should read and atleast take into account and maybe apply it in their own situations.

 

I noticed this. I'm only telling it from a man's perspective- my perspective. Like I said- and here come the 2x4's- women approach affairs differently than me do-- PERIOD! If I'm lying, go to the countless threads where the MM decided to end the affair only leave the OW brokenhearted. Then again, what did the OW(or OM for that matter) expect.

 

Again, sorry for the t/j.

Edited November 8, 2011 by despicableME

[whichwayisup]

Sorry for the t/j.

 

 

 

If you REALY believe your AP is not lying to you in some way, then you're pretty gullible. Why would you believe he/she is being TOTALLY honest with you if he's lying to his/her spouse???

 

Exactly. Even omitting truths count as a lie.

 

 

I noticed this. I'm only telling it from a man's perspective- my perspective. Like I said- and here come the 2x4's- women approach affairs differently than me do-- PERIOD! If I'm lying, go to the countless threads where the MM decided to end the affair only leave the OW brokenhearted. Then again, what did the OW(or OM for that matter) expect.

 

Again, sorry for the t/j.

 

Just my opinion, but I think there are a lot more MM who just don't think..Think in the moment or ahead, they are just in it for the affair itself. Not looking to leave their marriage, not looking to end the A either. Not a lot of time is spent analzying and wondering, more it is what it is. Most women are thinkers and maybe the A means more to them than to the MM on some level. But, then again, I've seen OM react and feel the same way as an OW does, so it could just be the MW/MM way of thinking and feeling towards the A compared to OW/OM way of thinking and feeling of the A.

[Got it]

Sorry for the t/j.

 

 

 

If you REALY believe your AP is not lying to you in some way, then you're pretty gullible. Why would you believe he/she is being TOTALLY honest with you if he's lying to his/her spouse???

 

 

 

I noticed this. I'm only telling it from a man's perspective- my perspective. Like I said- and here come the 2x4's- women approach affairs differently than me do-- PERIOD! If I'm lying, go to the countless threads where the MM decided to end the affair only leave the OW brokenhearted. Then again, what did the OW(or OM for that matter) expect.

 

Again, sorry for the t/j.

 

Okay, I can only approach this from my point of view. But having been a MW I ask why did you lie? I didn't. I never saw the need. Why did you have the need to lie? Or is lying a common form of avoidance for you?

 

And I agree, some MP are just heartless in how they handle the BS and OP though you sound almost proud of it which is a bit surprising. Why is that? You seem very combative with OP especially if the OP had/s feelings towards their MP. Why is that?

 

I can see having a no strings attached affair, what ever floats your boat. But why not lay that out in the beginning? Why be anger/bitter/negative (fill in your preferred term) towards those that may have either believed what they were told or have feelings of love towards their AP?

 

I do think you have a different approach, probably similar to others, not similar to those I know.

[Got it]

Exactly. Even omitting truths count as a lie.

 

 

 

 

Just my opinion, but I think there are a lot more MM who just don't think..Think in the moment or ahead, they are just in it for the affair itself. Not looking to leave their marriage, not looking to end the A either. Not a lot of time is spent analzying and wondering, more it is what it is. Most women are thinkers and maybe the A means more to them than to the MM on some level. But, then again, I've seen OM react and feel the same way as an OW does, so it could just be the MW/MM way of thinking and feeling towards the A compared to OW/OM way of thinking and feeling of the A.

 

I agree and it may be a on person by person basis. Not sure about marital piece but could be. I am surprised that people, especially the MP doesn't think two steps ahead on this. They have the most to lose and are gambling alot engaging in this endeavor. It isn't like looking to pick up crocheting for some giggles and grins. One should recognize what is all at stake when they play in the big leagues.

[despicableME]

I hope Cabin is not gonna throw a fit over this(t/j), but here goes...

 

why did you lie? I didn't. I never saw the need.

 

Why do you think. Ask anybody else in an affair why they lie... most don't want to confront the fallout- divorce/seperation; disrupting children's environment; splitting of family/friends; humiliation... need I go further. I guess you were in an "open" marriage for you not to lie about it. Not very many BS's take it as well as your husband seems to have taken it.

 

And I agree, some MP are just heartless in how they handle the BS and OP though you sound almost proud of it which is a bit surprising. Why is that? You seem very combative with OP especially if the OP had/s feelings towards their MP. Why is that?

 

I don't know if I'm proud of it. I just know how/when to detach. I know it seems cold, but I'm just wired that way. My wife saw the softer side of me. She is the ONLY one I let see that. Don't get me wrong... me and AP had our "tender" moments, but they were fleating.

 

But why not lay that out in the beginning? Why be anger/bitter/negative (fill in your preferred term) towards those that may have either believed what they were told or have feelings of love towards their AP?

 

 

Does it have to be spelled out? We never said we were gonna leave our spouses for each other. That's what I mean about men and women treating it differently. Her(AP) getting emotionally involved was a by-product of what we were experiencing. In that sense, I do feel somewhat bad, but when entering into such an illicit situation... what do the guilty parties expect to happen. This relationship was built on false pretenses from the very beginning... it was born out of lust, not love. The "love" she felt came afterward. I can bet if I ask her if she loved me after our first encounter, the answer would be a resounding- NO! I don't know where you're getting anger/bitter/negative from. I might be bold in my assessment, but harbor no ill will.

[whichwayisup]

I agree and it may be a on person by person basis. Not sure about marital piece but could be. I am surprised that people, especially the MP doesn't think two steps ahead on this. They have the most to lose and are gambling alot engaging in this endeavor. It isn't like looking to pick up crocheting for some giggles and grins. One should recognize what is all at stake when they play in the big leagues.

 

I'm sure much of this has to do with the "I'll never get caught" attitude. Just look at Tiger Woods. He risked his marriage, family unit, money and his reputation.. That man has suffered and lost millions.

 

That's what I mean about men and women treating it differently. Her(AP) getting emotionally involved was a by-product of what we were experiencing.

 

Just like in a one on one relationship. Women tend to become attached, feel feelings of love quicker and much more easily than a guy does. It could be this plain and simple that men can separate love and sex, and not too many women can.

[Cabin]

 

And, my point on the "stay with your wife talk in bed" bit was its seriously dishonest to say such - you want him to be with you. So say it. Don't say one thing whilst secretly wishing for another. That's my point.

 

You can't possibly know is true in my heart or mind, so you're simply unqualified to comment on what you perceive to be dishonesty on my part.

 

I can sincerely say that if he could make his relationship viable and fulfilling, I would want him to stay where he is and save everyone a world of hurt and readjustment. Would I be heartbroken? Absolutely!

 

But if that happened, it would mean we were not meant to be together and I would learn from the experience and move on and be open to meeting someone else.

[xxoo]

But he made the realization that he must leave for several reasons:

-he was never in love with her and is only wasting her time by continuing a marriage that deprives her of love

 

Is he incapable of loving her?

 

Can he ever know the answer to that if he is actively focusing his love on you?

[bentnotbroken]

Is he incapable of loving her?

 

Can he ever know the answer to that if he is actively focusing his love on you?

 

 

Is he capable of loving anyone other than himself? If that is what his definition.

[sp2007]

So, I have to weigh in here. I've been waiting to find those in a similar situation. Please sit down, take a seat, and let me tell you my story...

 

I could've written this same post. Two years ago.

 

To recap, My MM moved out of his marital home 8 months after we got involved. He confessed immediately and told her he loved me. His wife was devastated. His children were a mess and had to enter therapy. His guilt was immense.

 

I also told him repeatedly that he needed to do what was right for him and I would understand if he chose to reconcile. He assured me that he was never going back.

 

The first year of their separation, they were in therapy to work through their feelings about separation and divorce and to discuss how best to manage the children. In November 2009 -- two years ago -- he told me they were divorcing.

 

Long story short? He is still not divorced.

 

Yes, he is still living on his own and, as far as I can tell, they are moving toward divorce. I've seen the emails from the lawyers, the draft agreements, etc. I have to assume that he's telling me the truth, because the alternative is just too pathological to even contemplate.

 

Our lives are not yet integrated fully -- I spend no time with his kids although they do know that I am a close "friend" -- but he refers to me as his girlfriend, and from the time he moved out, has always very open about doing things with me, holding my hand in public in the town he lived in, introducing me to his brother and friends, etc.

 

But at this point? I've reached the end of the road. I just want off this carnival ride.

 

I've given him every possible out that I can think of. I couldn't be more understanding. I've even tried telling him that it's ok to tell me if he's stuck or unsure. To be honest, right now I'd actually prefer that he tell me he's going back to his wife rather than the response that he always gives me: he's getting a divorce, it just takes time.

 

Maybe the truth is that he is just truly emotionally distraught over the ending of his marriage, even if he thinks it is the right thing to do, and can't move any faster, but I don't care anymore.

 

It's been over 3 years since he moved out of the house, 2 years since he told me they were divorcing. Either sh*t or get off the pot.

 

In the past two weeks, I have told him that I don't want to continue this until he files. The emotional manipulation on his part to get me to continue in the relationship has been unbelieveable. I think that is the part that annoys me the most -- after all this time, he can't think past his own selfish desires and do the right thing.

 

I am trying to stay focused on establishing firm boundaries for myself and making sure that he respects those. It is not easy because after all this time -- 4 years in total -- we are in deep. It's very hard to walk away from someone you love, but I know that this nonsense is never going to stop until I make it.

 

The reason I am telling you this is not to rain on your parade, but to point out that even if they do leave, it is not smooth sailing to happily ever after.

 

I know right now that you are full of hope, but believe me, after a few years of waffling -- whether it's legitimate or not -- you are going to be tired and resentful. The comments you have received from others are well intended, but I have actually walked this path.

 

Not knowing your MM, I am not sure what to advise you, but I would urge you to stay focused on doing what is best for you, regardless of him. It's the only way that you are going to be able to hold onto your sanity during his transition.

 

Divorce is a road for two people, not three.

 

My very best wishes.

[xxoo]

But if that happened, it would mean we were not meant to be together and I would learn from the experience and move on and be open to meeting someone else.

 

Are you open to meeting someone else now?

 

It seems like the two of you are years from a shared life together, if at all.

 

If he found love between him and his wife, that would mean you were not meant to be together.

 

If you found love with another man, that would also mean you weren't meant to be together.

 

Or maybe there is no "meant to be", and only what realities we create for ourselves....

[Mme. Chaucer]

I would still like to know the reason that the lying has to continue, now that you have already separated from your husband without any evident effects upon either of you (or your child), and since he and his wife are already drafting separation agreements.

 

Why still lie? Do you honestly think that you are helping his wife or family somehow? I bet she would be relieved to know the truth. At least she would not have to feel that she was simply not doing it for him. Having another woman in the picture could take some of the self-hatred away from his wife.

 

Why are you doing it? And I really would like to understand how you envision "coming out" later. How long do the divorces have to be behind you before you make a masquerade of beginning to date? Isn't that going to be awfully weird? What are the kids going to make of it?

[whichwayisup]

It is not easy because after all this time -- 4 years in total -- we are in deep. It's very hard to walk away from someone you love, but I know that this nonsense is never going to stop until I make it.

 

 

 

Divorce is a road for two people, not three.

 

.

 

And now you know why it's taken him 2 years and counting to divorce. You two have four years, but he has alot more than that with his wife and kids.

 

You have such insight, though as painful as it is, I see you're nearing your end, aka enough is enough phase. A person can only take so much..

 

Your last line, very true.

[woinlove]

I wonder what is really going on with MM. He previously said he loved his wife for being a great mother and now he describes her as a horrible mother. He must see her on unsure footing as he spins his untruths and apparently has watched this transformation in her, while maintaining his lies and deception even throughout counselling. Does he feel guilt that erodes his self-worth or is he able to distance himself and compartmentalize and rationalize? From the earlier description of him at a dinner party with his W and cabin and from the length and extent of his deception, I suspect the latter. I just wonder if he really needs the negatives to be a result of his W and her actions.

[Severely Unamused]

Why still lie?

 

What does Cabin stand to gain by being honest?

[woinlove]

What does Cabin stand to gain by being honest?

 

The possibility of having an R with the man she loves that doesn't have to be hidden from family, friends, colleagues, etc. The alternative is to remain hidden for quite some time still, and manage a false beginning with the various other people in her and his life. Of course, something could go wrong if the truth got out and their R might not survive. But there is some risk of that in any case.

 

Also, if Cabin is someone who values honesty and living an authentic life, there are typically internal rewards for living aligned with one's values.

[Severely Unamused]

The possibility of having an R with the man she loves that doesn't have to be hidden from family, friends, colleagues, etc. The alternative is to remain hidden for quite some time still, and manage a false beginning with the various other people in her and his life. Of course, something could go wrong if the truth got out and their R might not survive. But there is some risk of that in any case.

 

Also, if Cabin is someone who values honesty and living an authentic life, there are typically internal rewards for living aligned with one's values.

Good answer.

 

But what if (to her anyway) her outer image is more important than who she is underneath?

 

What does she stand to gain by being honest if this is the case?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Severely Unamused

[woinlove]

Good answer.

 

But what if (to her anyway) her outer image is more important than who she is underneath?

 

What does she stand to gain by being honest if this is the case?

 

From what cabin has posted about MM, I get the impression that he feels that way. I don't think there is much to be gained by being honest for such a person. One can work to manage the outer image to one's liking and spend what time one can privately in another persona. I think some people live their whole life that way.

 

If two such people find each other, maybe it is a suitable match. Although for some it will only work as long as the other isn't excluding them from what is underneath. People with a double life in that sense (outer image and underneath persona) may be attracted to others with the same trait, but usually don't want to later end up on the public-only side of the other's double life.

 

In this particular case, I get the impression MM is the one controlling what information will get out when. MM appears to have a story line (never loved his W in the romantic sense, he just married the wrong woman, and now has true love which doesn't deserve the reaction it would get if people knew the truth) that does not require him to change - particularly if the truth doesn't come out and both Cabin and MM seem quite committed to that path.

[frozensprouts]

The possibility of having an R with the man she loves that doesn't have to be hidden from family, friends, colleagues, etc. The alternative is to remain hidden for quite some time still, and manage a false beginning with the various other people in her and his life. Of course, something could go wrong if the truth got out and their R might not survive. But there is some risk of that in any case.

 

Also, if Cabin is someone who values honesty and living an authentic life, there are typically internal rewards for living aligned with one's values.

 

 

the thing that i find to be quite sad about the whole situation is the lying. From what I understand, most of the affair has been built on lies and i wonder what kind of lesson this is teaching the children who are involved.

 

one could argue that the children will never knew that their relationship started out as an affair, but I really wonder if that's true. Children have a way of figuring these kinds of things out, and I wonder what kind of lesson all this lying is teaching them. That it's okay to lie and be disrespectful in order to get what you want?

[frozensprouts]

I know I'm coming into this late so forgive me if this has been stated...

 

She can say that. And he can counter it by approaching the children and explaining to them that it is about him and their mother and not him and the children. He can do this in a nice and compassionate way that doesn't cast blame. He can tell them he will continue to be there for them and that mom says these things because she is hurting, and ending a marriage, even one that isn't working, is hard.

 

Whether or not they believe him will depend on if he's been there for them in the past (not just in his opinion, because his opinion doesn't count...the kids view of their father and his actions is what matters) and then further, if he continues to be there for them during this and after this.

 

Basically, do the children trust him enough to believe what he tells them? My feeling is he fears this because their relationship with their mom is stronger than their relationship with him. He knows they're not on equal footing here. He can only blame himself for that.

 

something that i have heard about ( and observed personally) is that being bin an affair can make someone who, under ordinary cirucmstances is a great parent, become somehwta less of a good parent.

 

I don't think this is intentional, but it can happen. A person only has so many hours in the run of a day, and if they are spending time with their affair partner or if they are lost in thought about them, then this is less time spent with their children and less time spent thinking about them. If an affair has been going on for a long time, one can reasonably extrapolate that this will have been having a negative affect on their relationship with their kids.

This may be one of he areas that an oyther man/woman really knows nothing about, as unless they actually are there to see their affair partner interact with his/her kids on a regular basis, then how do they really know what kind of effect the affair is having on their relationship with their children?

 

my point is that if he is gooing to leave, he is probably better off doing it sooner than later, as dragging thungs on willo only have a negative effect on all involved. how is staying going to change that?

[jwi71]

You can't possibly know is true in my heart or mind, so you're simply unqualified to comment on what you perceive to be dishonesty on my part.

 

I can sincerely say that if he could make his relationship viable and fulfilling, I would want him to stay where he is and save everyone a world of hurt and readjustment. Would I be heartbroken? Absolutely!

 

But if that happened, it would mean we were not meant to be together and I would learn from the experience and move on and be open to meeting someone else.

 

You're right. I can't possibly know what is your heart.

I guess I just don't understand you.

You, in my understanding, are taking me to task because I claimed you wanted to be with him and that saying otherwise is a lie. Its all right there in black and white.

 

But you have, and I would say you have maintained a consistent message, of wanting TO be with him. Even making plans with him to this affect.

 

We are each in counselling with our respective partners, but we both want to separate and eventually be together (but avoid the damage of the A being outed).

 

I must be confused.

 

You make plans to be with him even though that's not in your heart?

If you are still making plans to be with him, why say the opposite?

Or maybe you no longer plan to be with him. Is that it? What changed?

How did you go from making plans to be together (which implies a level of desire) to no longer caring?

[despicableME]

WOW! Are you sure you're not my AP? This the mirror image of what I was going through, except for the fact I wasn't about to leave my wife for her... talk about parallel universes being possible.