WS may not leave the M, but they do wander off again...

[Lilith Crane]

I have seen threads about how xMM always gets back in contact with the OW at some point. I never believed it would happen in my situation because this xMM had made such a scene of displaying how happily married he was. WOW! It was all just for show.

 

After several months of strict NC, xMM has decided he's ready to be part of my life again - as if it were up to him! He has called several times. I only picked up once because I did not recognize the number. He has come to visit me, unannounced. He has been syrupy sweet, even brought me a gift. I ended these interactions quickly (within minutes) and sent him on his way. I learned my lesson. I'm determined to keep away from him.

 

So, then I saw this very profound statement:

 

I feel for the OW/OM who does not see, hear, witness the intensive therapy, the tears, the depression, the suicidal ideation of a WS after DDay. They believe he returns unaccountable to his family and his life while they are left to grieve alone.

 

Someone please explain this to me.

 

My xMM went through counseling and did lots of acrobatics to prove he would be faithful in reconciling. That was all just another bunch of lies? How could he go through something like this and then come right back to proposition me?

 

Any insight into the WS mentality would be sincerely appreciated. I really am trying to grasp what is happening here.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Lilith Crane

[woinlove]

Not all cases are the same. Some MM want to have both a wife, family and an OW. Others want to have an honest R with one woman but temporarily give up their values - the reasons for which are varied. Sounds like for the MM in your case, it was not just a temporary departure from honesty and integrity. Maybe he wants both a W and an OW. That seems to be how he is behaving.

[OpenBook]

They're nothing if not consistent, aren't they Lilith?

 

I'd love to know the same thing. How a man could live his life this way - "The Great Pretender." And if the majority of ALL men are this way (to their employees/co-workers, friends, etc.) whether they cheat on their W's or not.

 

Because they all appear to be SO GOOD at it - fooling everyone around them.

 

What's happening on their insides? Would the real Mr. Man please stand up? (Do they even know who he is anymore?)

[Spark1111]

I think alot of men capable of cheating, gaslighting, decieving and lying are just about capable of anything. No big mystery - lying and manipulation have simply become a way of life for this sad sack. It doesn't surprise me in the LEAST that he's home telling his wife how he loves her and wants to grow old with her and then gets in his car and goes and tries his luck with another woman.

 

Simply put, lots of men are douche bags - some more than others.

 

Absolutely, and unfortunately, not uncommon....sigh....

 

When a WS is outed, their first-knee jerk response is to go home, and DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to have it all quiet down and return the status quo, which is their base for stability.

 

Then, they contact the AP again to re-establish their need for excitement and ego-validation.

 

Just because someone attends therapy, does not mean they are invested in personal change.

 

A few months of IC is not enough to teach a leopard how to change its spots.

[mzdolphin]

Absolutely, and unfortunately, not uncommon....sigh....

 

When a WS is outed, their first-knee jerk response is to go home, and DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to have it all quiet down and return the status quo, which is their base for stability.

 

Then, they contact the AP again to re-establish their need for excitement and ego-validation.

 

Just because someone attends therapy, does not mean they are invested in personal change.

 

A few months of IC is not enough to teach a leopard how to change its spots.

 

I have only been involved with one MM. So I can only go by that experience and his ability to come back, again and again, just floors me. The declarations of love. Looking me in the eye and telling me he loves me. Going home and doing the same with her. I don't get how anybody can live this way. But I've come to the conclusion that many, if not the majority of men do.

 

As I've said before, if 70 percent of married men admit to cheating, why do we as women think WE have the 30 percenter? I just don't like those odds.

[Spark1111]

Not all cases are the same. Some MM want to have both a wife, family and an OW. Others want to have an honest R with one woman but temporarily give up their values - the reasons for which are varied. Sounds like for the MM in your case, it was not just a temporary departure from honesty and integrity. Maybe he wants both a W and an OW. That seems to be how he is behaving.

 

Agreed!

 

I didn't cry, beg or plead. Wasn't scared of being alone because nothing is lonelier than being in a marriage with a WS and having no clue why they seem to be falling out of love with you and picking fights during the affair you have no clue about.

 

Made my own money; kids grown and off to college. All the excuses he told her were total bs.

 

Everytime I discovered contact between them, I threw him out telling him to go get her and asked what are you still doing here?

 

Didn't keep it a secret from anyone and prepared for a future without him.

 

When I finally decided to give reconciliation a chance, I told him very calmly that if there was ever accidental or intentional contact between them, and I was not informed immediately, I would be gone.

 

Don't know what other BSs do.

[Lilith Crane]

Thank you all for sharing with me. I feel lucky to receive such thoughtful replies.

 

Spark's words rang in my head for two whole days before I posted this. I kept thinking if xMM felt even a fraction of that sort of pain, then surely, that would deter him from straying again. Indeed, will the real Mr. Man please stand? I have no clue how this person justifies the things he does, and he does it ON PURPOSE!

 

Before our d-day, I believed xMM was one of those men who just temporarily loses his integrity because he is screaming out for someone to understand him and love him. Now, I know he's just manipulative and willing to do and say whatever he must to get what he wants. He approached me on purpose. He continues to lie on purpose. I'm angry about this. What makes him think he has the right to treat people this way? ON PURPOSE!

 

Self-centered as xMM is, one would think he'd at least want to spare himself having to go through all the work of calming down the homestead.

 

This BW is not as strong as you, Spark. She did not set firm boundaries with him and made a lot of excuses on his behalf. This must be the result.

[beenburned]

That 70% stat you posted was for how many men cheat at least ONCE in their lifetime. The stats for serial cheaters are only about 2% of the entire population.

[VivienViolet]

This BW is not as strong as you, Spark. She did not set firm boundaries with him and made a lot of excuses on his behalf. This must be the result.

She did it because she loved him and didn't want to lose him. Maybe Spark loved her husband but was prepared to walk away.

 

You're not interested in him, so why would you care about his marriage or BW? You bring up an interesting question nonetheless. Maybe the women the WS chooses permanently is the one who is most willing to walk away. And why not? Both the BS and OW who are unconditionally loyal after d-day are the ones signalling that it's ok to have cake and eat it too.

Edited November 5, 2011 by VivienViolet
Grammar

[MissBee]

Absolutely, and unfortunately, not uncommon....sigh....

 

When a WS is outed, their first-knee jerk response is to go home, and DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to have it all quiet down and return the status quo, which is their base for stability.

 

Then, they contact the AP again to re-establish their need for excitement and ego-validation.

Just because someone attends therapy, does not mean they are invested in personal change.

 

A few months of IC is not enough to teach a leopard how to change its spots.

 

And that's the truth and bottom line.

 

For some, they are genuinely ready and desire change and for some, they can never get past their own desires, so they will fake it and pretend and do whatever it takes to continue doing what they'd like do do.

 

A man like that is no catch...to anyone.

[Lilith Crane]

Yes, LadyGrey, that's it exactly! This is MY JOURNEY. My focus is on doing some heavy introspection and evaluation of the entire situation so that I can avoid any potential pitfalls in MY FUTURE.

 

The interest I have in learning about the marriage reconciliation dynamic comes from wondering why my xMM thinks it's okay to still seek external validaton from me.

[SoMovinOn]

My xMM went through counseling and did lots of acrobatics to prove he would be faithful in reconciling. That was all just another bunch of lies? How could he go through something like this and then come right back to proposition me?

 

Any insight into the WS mentality would be sincerely appreciated. I really am trying to grasp what is happening here.

 

It seems many people here are quick to label any contradictions as lies. In doing so, have you never experienced the reality of believing or feeling something contradictory yourself? It is entirely possible to honestly and truly feel something, while at the same time, feeling some inner conflict over those feelings. Sometimes, the conflict is in deciding to do what is "right". This is especially common in matters of the heart. The struggles between the heart and mind have gone on forever.

[Lilith Crane]

SoMovinOn - You HEARD me. This is exactly what I am trying to work out for myself.

 

I do understand about inner-conflict and contradicting feelings. Those are powerful drivers. But why all the promises if WS hasn't sorted out what those feelings are yet? That's where the lies come into play.

 

During the A, xMM made many promises of a future.

 

All Lies.

 

D-day came and he bolted home looking every bit the model, remorseful WS.

 

He makes promises to the BW to never, never, never do it again.

 

Those turn out to be lies as well.

 

Why?

[VivienViolet]

Yes, LadyGrey, that's it exactly! This is MY JOURNEY. My focus is on doing some heavy introspection and evaluation of the entire situation so that I can avoid any potential pitfalls in MY FUTURE.

 

The interest I have in learning about the marriage reconciliation dynamic comes from wondering why my xMM thinks it's okay to still seek external validaton from me.

Could be a difference in perspective. As a wayward spouse who is reconciling, the thought that the other man might be wondering what's going on in my marriage is very creepy to me. Sorry, don't mean to offend you.

[Spark1111]

She did it because she loved him and didn't want to lose him. Maybe Spark loved her husband but was prepared to walk away.

 

You're not interested in him, so why would you care about his marriage or BW? You bring up an interesting question nonetheless. Maybe the women the WS chooses permanently is the one who is most willing to walk away. And why not? Both the BS and OW who are unconditionally loyal after d-day are the ones signalling that it's ok to have cake and eat it too.

 

I think this hits the nail on the head.

 

If there are truly no painful consequences to horrendous actions, actions that satisfy mostly you but selfishly hurt others, there is no deterrent to repeating those actions in the future.

 

Unconditional loyalty and trust should be earned. A man, lying and manipulating two women to suit his own needs should have plates being hurled at his head, IMHO.

 

Not only by the women, but friends, family, colleagues too.

 

I will say it again and again. It is NOT the developing of feelings for another that appalls; it is the continued lying and sneaking around and treating everyone like crap while you do that smacks of unresolved issues from adolescence.

 

Take a stand, make a choice, and take action. No one would fault the WS for honesty as sad as that may be. To cake eaters, that is just way too grown up to do.

[SoMovinOn]

I do understand about inner-conflict and contradicting feelings. Those are powerful drivers. But why all the promises if WS hasn't sorted out what those feelings are yet? That's where the lies come into play.

 

During the A, xMM made many promises of a future.

 

All Lies.

 

D-day came and he bolted home looking every bit the model, remorseful WS.

 

He makes promises to the BW to never, never, never do it again.

 

Those turn out to be lies as well.

 

Why?

 

That's my point - they may not be lies. He may sincerely, honestly, mean exactly what he says. When he made promises to you ... maybe he sincerely meant every word of it. Maybe he believed he knew exactly how he'd react on D-Day. ... and maybe when D-Day came, he found out he was wrong, that he didn't know how he'd react. ... and maybe he reacted sincerely and honestly.

 

I don't know. Maybe he is just a liar. Maybe not. I can't know. You really can't know. If it's only what's in his head, only he can ever really know. That being the case, it is impossible to label him either way.

 

People often think they know how they feel, or think they know how they will react in a given situation. They act based on this "knowledge". They may be right, they may be wrong. It doesn't make them a liar. It makes them human.

 

As an example: I told my W, before we got married, if she ever cheated on me, it was an immediate deal breaker. I would pack her bags, walk her to her car, and she'd be gone.

 

Her A's were in 2007/2008. She's still here.

 

Was I lying when I told her it was an immediate deal breaker? No. I meant it when I said it. When the situation actually came up, I had to assess if I still felt that way, if that was what I really wanted to do, if that was the best way to handle the situation. It wasn't, so I didn't.

 

Lying is intentional.

[2sunny]

I have only been involved with one MM. So I can only go by that experience and his ability to come back, again and again, just floors me. The declarations of love. Looking me in the eye and telling me he loves me. Going home and doing the same with her. I don't get how anybody can live this way. But I've come to the conclusion that many, if not the majority of men do.

 

As I've said before, if 70 percent of married men admit to cheating, why do we as women think WE have the 30 percenter? I just don't like those odds.

 

His ability to come back again and again? Some HAS to ALLOW that.. And that someone must be you.

 

The solution is to STOP ALLOWING IT!

[Severely Unamused]

As I've said before, if 70 percent of married men admit to cheating, why do we as women think WE have the 30 percenter? I just don't like those odds.

 

This is something that I discussed with my stbxH. We set up a monogamish relationship. The basic idea was that if he ever felt the need to have sex and/or a relationship with another woman than he would be completely honest about it, explain his reasons, and we would both plan accordingly. IMO the problem with the "if you ever sleep with another woman, I'll divorce your ass" attitude is that it tends to completely close off communication between your partner and yourself, ironically leading to an increased chance of an affair. Very few men are ethical enough to be open, honest, respectful and communicative with your spouse if there is a large risk of divorce.

 

This is important for a couple of reasons, especially if you plan on being monogamous and value fidelity: If your partner is the type that needs to "suppress" his desires so that he can remain faithful, and is eager to f*ck other women soon after you give him the green light...than you'll know pretty quickly instead of discovering that he is a cheater 10-20 years down the line. This gives you an opportunity to decide how you want to proceed: I was comfortable with having a mono/poly relationship with my husband. If you aren't than you have revealed a glaring incompatability issue that will most likely cause resentment later on.

 

This is the important bit: Just because this option is left on the table, doesn't mean that your husband will take it...ideally, you want a man that has a natural inclination towards monogamy (after talking with my husband, I believe that he is the monogamous type). The only time that my husband had any "extramarital relations" was when our relationship was already deader than dead (obviously I have no proof that he didn't sleep with any other women, but considering that he loses nothing by being honest with me, and potentially loses everything by being dishonest with me, he'd have to be some kind of idiot to be dishonest with me...and he was a temporary idiot. Woops.)

 

I still ended up with sh*t all over my face just before our marriage died, but we encouraged openness and honesty about our desires for the majority of our relationship. Anyway, that's my recommendation if you want to lower the chances of being cheated on. This advice does make some assumptions though: If your partner has already said that he is only being monogamous for your sake...than this is not really valid.

 

I apologise for the thread jack and will shut up now.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Severely Unamused

[Quiet Storm]

My xMM went through counseling and did lots of acrobatics to prove he would be faithful in reconciling. That was all just another bunch of lies? How could he go through something like this and then come right back to proposition me?

 

I think for a lot of MM their thought process is this....

 

Many MM truly don't consider OW a threat to their marriage.

 

He's going through counseling to keep his wife, but he doesn't really think there is anything wrong with what he did.

 

He wants a marriage and an OW.

 

He knows his wife doesn't want him to cheat, but he trivializes her pain and usually thinks she's making a big deal out of nothing. He thinks, I was never going to leave her...WTF is she so upset about?

 

So he'll go to counseling, appease BW and wait for her to calm down so he can return to his optimal situation of having a wife AND an OW.

 

I think most go back to the same OW, because in his mind, she is already groomed for the job.

 

MM are selfish, and rarely consider the feelings of BW or OW except when their feelings become and inconvenience to him.

 

He won't respect OW wishes for no contact, he would respect BW wishes and stay faithful.. it's all about him.

[beenburned]

LadyGrey,

I think the majority of BW do NOT learn the entire truth on D-Day. The WS does damage control by telling more lies, minimizing the facts, or only confessing to what evidence is presented by the BW.

 

Therefore the BW has to make her decision at THAT time based on false info. Usually the entire truth comes out many years later.(that's what happened to me)

[beenburned]

QuietStorm,

You described a serial cheating cake eater perfectly! He does anything to get his life the way HE wants it, at the expense of the wife and OW.

[Lilith Crane]

As a wayward spouse who is reconciling, the thought that the other man might be wondering what's going on in my marriage is very creepy to me. Sorry, don't mean to offend you.

 

No worries, none taken! I would offer a gentle reminder in return though. I would ask that you consider, the WS is the one who gives OP a window into the M in the first place. Once you involve another person in your problems, of course he will wonder about what’s going on – especially if you turned your back on him suddenly.

 

Now, my way of thinking involves this:

 

Take a stand, make a choice, and take action. No one would fault the WS for honesty as sad as that may be.

 

Which is clashing in my head with this:

 

People often think they know how they feel, or think they know how they will react in a given situation. They act based on this "knowledge". They may be right, they may be wrong. It doesn't make them a liar. It makes them human.

 

((SoMovingOn)) thanks for your honesty. I am learning from you, but I still very respectfully disagree. Granted, relationships are not black and white, but a person should have the courage to do what he says he will. If a situation becomes harder to navigate than originally planned, go back and truthfully explain why to EVERYONE involved. Stop mucking about and just be honest. Then, if the OP or BS sticks it out through some long, drawn-out bout of indecision, that’s all on them. At least they know what to expect.

 

I cannot allow myself to believe xMM meant every word he said to me. I would be fooling myself because his ACTIONS say differently.

 

So then, this is the perception:

 

He wants a marriage and an OW.

 

He knows his wife doesn't want him to cheat, but he trivializes her pain and usually thinks she's making a big deal out of nothing. He thinks, I was never going to leave her...WTF is she so upset about?

 

So he'll go to counseling, appease BW and wait for her to calm down so he can return to his optimal situation of having a wife AND an OW.

 

I think most go back to the same OW, because in his mind, she is already groomed for the job.

 

GRRR!!! This makes me see red because I believe my xMM falls into this category.

 

Very few men are ethical enough to be open, honest, respectful and communicative with your spouse if there is a large risk of divorce.

 

...

 

I apologise for the thread jack and will shut up now.

 

Don’t you dare!

 

There is so much great food for thought in this thread. We've all had to learn such hard lessons...

Edited November 6, 2011 by Lilith Crane

[SoMovinOn]

((SoMovingOn)) thanks for your honesty. I am learning from you, but I still very respectfully disagree. Granted, relationships are not black and white, but a person should have the courage to do what he says he will. If a situation becomes harder to navigate than originally planned, go back and truthfully explain why to EVERYONE involved. Stop mucking about and just be honest. Then, if the OP or BS sticks it out through some long, drawn-out bout of indecision, that’s all on them. At least they know what to expect.

 

I agree. I don't know if he's lying or not - just throwing out another perspective to consider.

 

Then there is also the combination - he was telling the truth, found it had changed, so then lies (to save face? because he can't accept the truth? because he feels backed into a corner? ... a million other possible reasons).

 

Certainly it hurts much more to think he was lying about all of it from the very beginning. I hope that wasn't the case. By having an alternative to consider (that it was true, to some point), you can allow yourself the think that, and maybe hurt a bit less. Since you can't ever really know, may as well choose to believe something a bit easier to deal with.

[beenburned]

LadyGrey,

I applaud your honesty and willingness to help the BW get the info she needed so that she could make the right choice for herself!

 

A friend of mine is going through a nasty divorce with her serial cheating H. She will be eternally grateful for both of his OW that not only told her the truth, but also supplied all the evidence she needed in court to prove adultery.

[beenburned]

LadyGrey,

The serial cheating MM in my story is being divorced by his wife, and BOTH of his OW have dumped him after they found out how he played everyone with all of his lies!