the troubling number of cynical, bitter, sexually inexperienced men on this forum

[joystickd]

It's called sex therapy. I have posted about it before.

 

While I suspect Dr. Tiger Howard Devore would be a more effective therapist for women, I'm sure he would know a good one to send men too.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29881206/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sex-surrogates-put-personal-touch-therapy/

 

That's the cure.

Dr. Tiger hmmm.........I saw that part of his number had 666. Maybe he is offering sex magick. :laugh:

[Cracker Jack]

1. You have to realize just because a small subset of women did you wrong does not mean all are the same.

2. Cut off the porn and get your hand off your dick

3. Upgrade your wardrobe. Star Wars tees or Anime tees make you look like a kid.

4. Go out. You can do it by yourself even

5. You see a female you want to talk to go up and say hello introduce yourself. You can even shake her hand.

6. Have a conversation and see how see responds.

 

Its that simple. Maybe you can get like me and just approach one and say hey you single. If she says yes then here's my number call me. That takes a long time and confidence to get to that point

 

1) Yes, I can agree with that.

2) I don't watch porn, but I'm definitely doing my best to limit that other activity.

3) Ha, I don't wear those, but I can still change my wardrobe up.

4) 100% agree.

5 and 6) This is pretty much what it comes down to for me.

 

The sex therapy seems kinda deep, tho. Most of my issues just seem to be not talking to women like I should. As for your approach, I'm afraid I'll get a bert stare doing something like that right now. But since you said it takes a long time, I guess I don't need to think about doing something like that right now.

[allina]

1. You have to realize just because a small subset of women did you wrong does not mean all are the same.

2. Cut off the porn and get your hand off your dick

3. Upgrade your wardrobe. Star Wars tees or Anime tees make you look like a kid.

4. Go out. You can do it by yourself even

5. You see a female you want to talk to go up and say hello introduce yourself. You can even shake her hand.

6. Have a conversation and see how see responds.

 

Its that simple. Maybe you can get like me and just approach one and say hey you single. If she says yes then here's my number call me. That takes a long time and confidence to get to that point

 

I think this is great, to the point advice.

[ChessPieceFace]

OMG I am saying this because I was like this years ago. When the first women comes along and offers you will take it whether she meets your standards or not. I said that standards thing because I wasn't getting laid it was a way to give an excuse.

 

Sorry to quash your hopes of justifying your own poor choices & poor morality, but no. Some people actually HAVE standards and morality. I am one of them. You aren't, or at least you didn't ever have the standards you thought you did. Believing you have standards of behavior and actually HAVING them are 2 different things.

 

- Did you even feel guilty about the guy's wife you banged?

- Do you feel morally bad, indifferent, or good about your first time being with a woman cheating on her husband?

 

See I care more about those things than about having a hole to put my penis in. That makes me better than you. You don't agree, doesn't make you right.

[joystickd]

Sorry to quash your hopes of justifying your own poor choices & poor morality, but no. Some people actually HAVE standards and morality. I am one of them. You aren't, or at least you didn't ever have the standards you thought you did. Believing you have standards of behavior and actually HAVING them are 2 different things.

 

- Did you even feel guilty about the guy's wife you banged?

- Do you feel morally bad, indifferent, or good about your first time being with a woman cheating on her husband?

 

See I care more about those things than about having a hole to put my penis in. That makes me better than you. You don't agree, doesn't make you right.

It doesn't make you better than me. No I don't feel guilty about it. I feel good about it because I got my first time out of the way. You might as well go out there and get you a piece because all you doing is making yourself bitter. In that sense you will never be better than me because you get on here and whine while I go out here and meet women. In a way its guys like you that make it bad too. "Nice" guys that think hey I'm better because I don't do this or that and in reality you are just a wolf in sheep's clothing. you will meet someone and be manipulative and then throw a tantrum because she dumped you. The reason is because she saw you for what you really are an adult sized boy.

[PlumPrincess]

Unfortunately yes.

 

I really have no idea why, but I've been rejected by every single girl I've been interested in since I was 13, I'm now 30.

 

The reason you see so many inexperienced men online is because the men who are online are usually the nerdy type. And the nerdy men are the ones who usually have the most troubles with women.

 

And then, the inexperienced men are often angry so they look for ways to spread their anger.

 

Hi I'm somedude81 and I'm a angry, bitter, sexually inexperienced man.

I made several posts in this other thread with suggestions, but you ignored them all.

 

The problem with many of these guys is that they never see the solution in themselves, instead they have this sense of entitlement that the world owes them a woman. And they also never recognize the amount of work and effort that other guys put in to get where they are. I know guys who have great bodies and who are able to attract lots of women, but they also spend a lot of time at the gym. They work their ass off in order to look good. I also know guys with lots of money. They also work their ass off with many unpaid extra hours.

 

If you're shy around people, then go and work on that instead of complaining that most women will not approach you first. Why should they? What do you have to offer? I find that kind of passiveness when it comes to one's problems to be quite unattractive.

 

And besides, most guys I find average looking. If some appear more attractive, then it often has more to do with their personality and the way they carry themselves.

[PlumPrincess]

I am bitter (about women) because women have base, animal standards when choosing men.

Hugh Heffner would not agree with you.

[dreamingoftigers]

He's probably old.

 

Thanks Nova Guy, for sitting around while feminism ruined America. We young men are angry because we didn't have the same simple romantic system our forefathers had.

 

Times have changed and things are getting worse.

 

Agreed. Mostly. I like the fact that we have more choices, but truly the sexual mores in this culture are the absolute pits and cause shame for many people. Very sad.

 

Unfortunately yes.

 

I really have no idea why, but I've been rejected by every single girl I've been interested in since I was 13, I'm now 30.

 

The reason you see so many inexperienced men online is because the men who are online are usually the nerdy type. And the nerdy men are the ones who usually have the most troubles with women.

 

And then, the inexperienced men are often angry so they look for ways to spread their anger.

 

Hi I'm somedude81 and I'm a angry, bitter, sexually inexperienced man.

 

Verbal presentation is key. Absolute key. The more you approach, statistically one of them will find something likeable enough to exchange numbers with you etc.

 

If your current approach hasn't worked since you were 13, modify it, drastically, and test it on 100 women. Keep testing. I dare you to approach an average girl, talk to her and push your own boundaries to get her number etc. Do it once a day for 100 days. Online dating is pretty lazy, so don't count that.

 

The more you approach, the more comfortable you become with it and then you can start seeing where things could be improved. Just like public speaking.

 

Quite frankly, your ancestors all managed to mate and produce you down the line, so you do have the genetic ability in your possession to get it on with a female of the species. Truly, it's in your blood.

 

Although there may be shame involved in the initial rejections: you lose nothing but chasing down as many as you can until you secure a date. At this point you have no woman. Let's say each approach only gives you odds of 1%. (This would be lower then reality).

 

So you start with ((no woman))

 

You can not ask and end up with ((no woman))

 

or you can ask and have a 1% chance of getting ((a woman)) or at least hone your experience of potentially getting the next woman.

 

YOU LOSE NOTHING BY APPROACHING AND ASKING.

 

Most men with women troubles fail to realize this. Often they overfocus on what Jerry the smooth-talking bad boy can do with his odds, which could even be 50/50 (Not likely, honestly they are probably about 10-15% AND the bad boy types know how to select their targets, more immature girls, or girls with low self-esteem.)

 

Now YOU are NOT Jerry. So what? I am not a supermodel. But what we each need to consider is that we want to improve our OWN situations.

 

We don't quit our jobs (in general) because someone at work that occupies the same position makes a better salary then us, we may be annoyed about it, but there are openings and ways to make a decent living or even eventually a higher salary.

 

Often as well I find the inexperienced ones tend NOT TO APPROACH and PRE-JUDGE THEMSELVES AS UNATTRACTIVE BECAUSE WOMEN DO NOT APPROACH THEM.

 

Our society portrays women as falling all over attractive men in commercials etc. I have yet to really witness much of that in real life. Unless the guy has something (like celebrity) really pulling for him. The average guy has high expectations and lower then average effort in because he is afraid of rejection.

 

Get rejected, failure is what brings you closer to your goals.

[oaks]

It's called sex therapy. I have posted about it before.

 

Yes, you have. I really doubt that this is the best or only solution for most of the no-longer-wish-to-be-virgins in this forum.

[dasein]

I made several posts in this other thread with suggestions, but you ignored them all.

 

The problem with many of these guys is that they never see the solution in themselves, instead they have this sense of entitlement that the world owes them a woman. And they also never recognize the amount of work and effort that other guys put in to get where they are. I know guys who have great bodies and who are able to attract lots of women, but they also spend a lot of time at the gym. They work their ass off in order to look good. I also know guys with lots of money. They also work their ass off with many unpaid extra hours.

 

If you're shy around people, then go and work on that instead of complaining that most women will not approach you first. Why should they? What do you have to offer? I find that kind of passiveness when it comes to one's problems to be quite unattractive.

 

And besides, most guys I find average looking. If some appear more attractive, then it often has more to do with their personality and the way they carry themselves.

 

I'm pretty sure of one thing, if frustrated young men weren't earnestly preached and lectured to over and over here, the volume of their posts would likely decline rapidly. This also goes for certain female posters who receive the patented LS browbeating. "Work your ass off in the gym," "make lots of money" is the exact cultural and social message that brings them here in the first place. They have heard it all before, and they haven't heard the same types of "work your ass off" "do more and more" messages being given to women.

 

Moreover, from a forum mechanical standpoint, the number of preachy, repetitive, overly chiding posts ironically bumps, bloats and draws attention to the supposedly offending threads. For every complaint post by some frustrated guy here, there is at least one unnecessary post either shouting him down, ridiculing him, or offering what poses as advice but is actually thinly disguised scorn and an opportunity for women who have their own problems to "take it out on" a man. Two of these are blatant violations of the TOS, yet aren't enforced at all. As far as LS is concerned, regardless of what the community guidelines say, these guys are fair game. They are the "pinatas" of this forum, and every swing of the stick exacerbates the problem unnecessarily.

 

Now they could go to one of the real gender charged sites on the net where they will have attitudes about women and dating reinforced by men that make the ones here look like teddy bears, and I'm not talking about foaming ranters, but men who have a very refined sense of real hatred. One humorous thing about this forum is that the "hate calling" usual suspects here obviously have no real idea what an angry man on the internet really looks like, but rather prefer the easy targets here to vent their spleen. It's obvious that many of these guys come here because they still believe in a balanced viewpoint and are interested in learning from others. Claiming that they are just here to troll and whine is the wrong perspective IMO, and not reflective of the truth.

 

These fellows didn't just crawl from under a rock, they have eyes and ears, they have experience, talents, jobs, educations. They are generally well-spoken, intelligent and rational in their written style in a way that many female posters here are most certainly not, and they see this too.They see that the messages they are receiving about getting what they want in life are very, very different from the messages women receive. Women get taken to task here... sometimes, but the level of ire directed at these guys is ridiculous.

 

What some take as ignoring advice over and over and continuing to post the same things is an upraised middle finger response to the stale platitudes and scolding they receive here. I don't blame them one bit.

 

So as to the posters who seem to take glee in knocking these guys down a notch or two, pointing out their failings in post after post thinly disguised as "advice," or even containing no advice at all just scorn, what of their problems? because we can likely all agree that the proclivity to kick someone who is down over and over and over and over and over, to pick on the weak is a problem much worse than not being able to get laid, can't we?

[PlumPrincess]

I'm pretty sure of one thing, if frustrated young men weren't earnestly preached and lectured to over and over here, the volume of their posts would likely decline rapidly. This also goes for certain female posters who receive the patented LS browbeating. "Work your ass off in the gym," "make lots of money" is the exact cultural and social message that brings them here in the first place. They have heard it all before, and they haven't heard the same types of "work your ass off" "do more and more" messages being given to women.

 

Moreover, from a forum mechanical standpoint, the number of preachy, repetitive, overly chiding posts ironically bumps, bloats and draws attention to the supposedly offending threads. For every complaint post by some frustrated guy here, there is at least one unnecessary post either shouting him down, ridiculing him, or offering what poses as advice but is actually thinly disguised scorn and an opportunity for women who have their own problems to "take it out on" a man. Two of these are blatant violations of the TOS, yet aren't enforced at all. As far as LS is concerned, regardless of what the community guidelines say, these guys are fair game. They are the "pinatas" of this forum, and every swing of the stick exacerbates the problem unnecessarily.

 

Now they could go to one of the real gender charged sites on the net where they will have attitudes about women and dating reinforced by men that make the ones here look like teddy bears, and I'm not talking about foaming ranters, but men who have a very refined sense of real hatred. One humorous thing about this forum is that the "hate calling" usual suspects here obviously have no real idea what an angry man on the internet really looks like, but rather prefer the easy targets here to vent their spleen. It's obvious that many of these guys come here because they still believe in a balanced viewpoint and are interested in learning from others. Claiming that they are just here to troll and whine is the wrong perspective IMO, and not reflective of the truth.

 

These fellows didn't just crawl from under a rock, they have eyes and ears, they have experience, talents, jobs, educations. They are generally well-spoken, intelligent and rational in their written style in a way that many female posters here are most certainly not, and they see this too.They see that the messages they are receiving about getting what they want in life are very, very different from the messages women receive. Women get taken to task here... sometimes, but the level of ire directed at these guys is ridiculous.

 

What some take as ignoring advice over and over and continuing to post the same things is an upraised middle finger response to the stale platitudes and scolding they receive here. I don't blame them one bit.

 

So as to the posters who seem to take glee in knocking these guys down a notch or two, pointing out their failings in post after post thinly disguised as "advice," or even containing no advice at all just scorn, what of their problems? because we can likely all agree that the proclivity to kick someone who is down over and over and over and over and over, to pick on the weak is a problem much worse than not being able to get laid, can't we?

You didn't read my posts at all, right?

 

I'm not sure what these guys want then, if they don't want suggestions to improve their situation. These are ideas that I have applied to my own life, more or less. I can empathize with their situation, because I have been in situation where I felt these irrational fears and I didn't do anything about them for years. I'm not sure what the guys want here. A shoulder to cry on? Convince women that it's bad to have no feelings of attraction for them? I like sympathy and compassion, but in the end, it's probably preferable and much better for myself if someone tells me what I need to do in order to get out of the misery. Honestly, I give advice to be helpful, but if you don't want to follow it, in the end, it's your choice. You could try going to the gym and see what happesn or you go to this forum and inform women that they should approach you first, whatever strikes you as the option with the higher possibility for success.

[dreamingoftigers]

I really don't want to get into a back and forth with you.

 

1. I am damn tired and will head to bed after this.

2. Just wanted to comment on your post.

 

I'm pretty sure of one thing, if frustrated young men weren't earnestly preached and lectured to over and over here, the volume of their posts would likely decline rapidly.

 

Often the posters here are made up of a ton of newbies who are in and out pretty quickly that have some generic advice, and the ancient posters who have dug a little deeper but also have entrenched opinions and advice.

 

Most opinions tend not to fall middle-ground, hence the same advice recycled over and over.

 

And yes, when one starts on the defensive, or with contempt, it tends to be a battle cry on the internet. Like a bunch of Lemmings. (Although the Lemming and cliff thing is actually a myth, but I digress)

 

This also goes for certain female posters who receive the patented LS browbeating. "Work your ass off in the gym," "make lots of money" is the exact cultural and social message that brings them here in the first place. They have heard it all before, and they haven't heard the same types of "work your ass off" "do more and more" messages being given to women.

 

Actually, we receive tons and tons and tons of messages right from early childhood about how to attract members of the opposite sex and keep them in relationships and sexually satisfied. The list are practically endless and are a heavy expectation and a given of women as well. Especially the "get to the gym" messages, anything to keep that trim little figure. Or else you fail to be worthy.

 

It may seem that many of us cannot empathize with these men, I honestly don't know how it can seem that way, but somehow it does. (Ugh, grammar, nevermind). Many of the cultural messages we are spoon fed from almost every source imaginable brings deep shame to each of us. I do wish that we lived in a more accepting and less shameful culture as well.

 

Moreover, from a forum mechanical standpoint, the number of preachy, repetitive, overly chiding posts ironically bumps, bloats and draws attention to the supposedly offending threads. For every complaint post by some frustrated guy here, there is at least one unnecessary post either shouting him down, ridiculing him, or offering what poses as advice but is actually thinly disguised scorn and an opportunity for women who have their own problems to "take it out on" a man. Two of these are blatant violations of the TOS, yet aren't enforced at all. As far as LS is concerned, regardless of what the community guidelines say, these guys are fair game. They are the "pinatas" of this forum, and every swing of the stick exacerbates the problem unnecessarily.

 

I do not believe that I personally have seen evidence of the bolded. IMHO I find that to be a very broad interpretation. Perhaps what is women often trying to be helpful triggers shame. ( In my own post, I was actually trying to be helpful and motivational, just for the record. In the past, I have counseled other young men to amp themselves up and go out there and get rejected. One actually ended up dating my best friend.)

 

Now they could go to one of the real gender charged sites on the net where they will have attitudes about women and dating reinforced by men that make the ones here look like teddy bears, and I'm not talking about foaming ranters, but men who have a very refined sense of real hatred. One humorous thing about this forum is that the "hate calling" usual suspects here obviously have no real idea what an angry man on the internet really looks like, but rather prefer the easy targets here to vent their spleen. It's obvious that many of these guys come here because they still believe in a balanced viewpoint and are interested in learning from others. Claiming that they are just here to troll and whine is the wrong perspective IMO, and not reflective of the truth.

 

Agreed.

 

These fellows didn't just crawl from under a rock, they have eyes and ears, they have experience, talents, jobs, educations. They are generally well-spoken, intelligent and rational in their written style in a way that many female posters here are most certainly not, and they see this too.They see that the messages they are receiving about getting what they want in life are very, very different from the messages women receive. Women get taken to task here... sometimes, but the level of ire directed at these guys is ridiculous.

 

Women and men do have different societal standards for attracting and keeping a mate. Generally what I see being said to women is: maintain as close to perfect an appearance as possible. Avoid aging at any cost be it financial, physical etc. Go through intense suffering to keep your appearance and provide your mate with the functional image qualities or else you are not worthy. I.e. 1. Figure 2. Flawless skin and hair 3. Enlarged breasts 4. Be sexually open regardless of your comfort level, put out and encourage your man to be as sexually demanding, unfaithful etc. as he wants to be. Be cool with it. Part of your function is to be a sexual object for him, but expect his appetite to be voracious. 5. Keep the house as clean as possible and well-decorated etc. 6. Balance this with a career where you find your "best self" and present the image of achievement 7. If you are going to have children, primary parenting is your responsibility, make sure your family is perceived as loving and achieving at all times (i.e. soccer, ballet, etc etc etc) 8. Be fashionably dressed to keep your feminine etc. image. 9. Always project the image of confidence and security, do not allow yourself too much emotion, and do not complain about not being listened to etc. Do not trouble your man. You are lucky you have one, competition is fierce.

 

Men's expectations are becoming increasingly brutal: 1. Money 2. Appearance. 3. Vehicle 4. Confidence 5. Plug as many women as you possibly can, life is short, be free, do not tie yourself down or get sucked in, if I can't find new women frequently you are a "loser." 6. Do not become emotionally involved with anyone, clobber the competition. Especially never, ever allow your woman's complaints to change your views etc. on anything or else you are "Whipped."

 

Do not be fooled by the shorter list for men, I just haven't expanded on everything and the list for men can easily be just as time consuming etc and there may be items I am missing. Both sides are under pressure, and it is only getting worse.

 

What some take as ignoring advice over and over and continuing to post the same things is an upraised middle finger response to the stale platitudes and scolding they receive here. I don't blame them one bit.

 

Honestly, I think some just don't listen and learn things the hard way. Can't say that I am much different.

 

So as to the posters who seem to take glee in knocking these guys down a notch or two, pointing out their failings in post after post thinly disguised as "advice," or even containing no advice at all just scorn, what of their problems? because we can likely all agree that the proclivity to kick someone who is down over and over and over and over and over, to pick on the weak is a problem much worse than not being able to get laid, can't we?

 

I am not sure that I see much of this. Perhaps the shame that is triggered may lead one to believe that others are "laughing" at them etc?

[Taramere]

Now they could go to one of the real gender charged sites on the net where they will have attitudes about women and dating reinforced by men that make the ones here look like teddy bears, and I'm not talking about foaming ranters, but men who have a very refined sense of real hatred. One humorous thing about this forum is that the "hate calling" usual suspects here obviously have no real idea what an angry man on the internet really looks like, but rather prefer the easy targets here to vent their spleen. It's obvious that many of these guys come here because they still believe in a balanced viewpoint and are interested in learning from others. Claiming that they are just here to troll and whine is the wrong perspective IMO, and not reflective of the truth.

 

I think a lot of us (talking from a female) do know very well what unrestrained misogyny on the internet reads like. It's not as though there's some masonic conspiracy that prevents us from having access to that stuff. It's really just one of those inevitabilities about the internet. We all know there are some messed up people out there, and it shouldn't be a surprise that plenty of them would have a very strong compulsion to verbally abuse or try to shock others via the internet.

 

Most of the venters on here sound generally harmless though unhappy. Some, like Woggle, have become part of the landscape of Loveshack. A bit like McDonalds burger, people will read Woggle's posts because they know exactly what they're getting and there's a comforting familiarity to it all. Plus, although he is eternally embroiled in the gender war, he isn't abusive and he also demonstrates empathy towards the opposite sex.

 

In other cases...well, the recent Kali thread demonstrated the tendency a minority of frustrated "nice guys" have to be so self involved and embittered about this whole "women prefer jerks" thing that they will react abusively to a woman who is in an abusive relationship. Which is pretty messed up.

 

 

So as to the posters who seem to take glee in knocking these guys down a notch or two, pointing out their failings in post after post thinly disguised as "advice," or even containing no advice at all just scorn, what of their problems? because we can likely all agree that the proclivity to kick someone who is down over and over and over and over and over, to pick on the weak is a problem much worse than not being able to get laid, can't we?

 

A lot of it is an ongoing game whereby the man expresses some variant of "women suck" and female posters respond "you suck".

 

It might be a negative exchange, but the guy involved is probably happy just to be getting some kind of female attention. I mean that's why they're here. They could just as easily be over a sosuave or some other predominantly male site venting - and in some cases, probably are. However

 

a) those sites don't tend to have much in the way of female posters ...and I think for a lot of venters, even if they won't communicate directly with women, it's important that they feel women are witnessing their vents.

 

b) From what I've seen of predominantly male sites, they tend to be far less tolerant of posters who are endlessly whining/negative than LS is.

 

So although male venters on here might be scolded by female posters, generally they're not simply dismissed and sent packing in the way that they seem to be from quite a number of other sites.

[RiverRunning]

It's a confidence issue. It's about rejection - both perceived and real. Probably a lot of them see these threads where women are talking about what they find attractive (usually the perfect, idealistic man) and men are sharing the same about women. If the guys don't meet those standards, and they see it oft-recited, it starts to color their impression of what they think ALL women want.

 

And unfortunately in a culture with a high divorce rate, many of these guys are probably getting their first taste of the legal system - when she walks away with half of their assets.

 

If most or all of their dating experiences have gone badly, I think it's natural to blame the other person. Suddenly, after one or two bad relationships, ALL women are greedy, ALL women are x, y, z. It's very easy to do and I've been in that position before in regards to men.

 

The guys need to build their self-esteem and put themselves out there. I will date you if you're fat. I will date you if you're 'ugly.' Depends on how cynical and bitter you are, though.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Taramere

I think a lot of us (talking from a female) do know very well what unrestrained misogyny on the internet reads like. It's not as though there's some masonic conspiracy that prevents us from having access to that stuff. It's really just one of those inevitabilities about the internet. We all know there are some messed up people out there, and it shouldn't be a surprise that plenty of them would have a very strong compulsion to verbally abuse or try to shock others via the internet.

 

Most of the venters on here sound generally harmless though unhappy. Some, like Woggle, have become part of the landscape of Loveshack. A bit like McDonalds burger, people will read Woggle's posts because they know exactly what they're getting and there's a comforting familiarity to it all. Plus, although he is eternally embroiled in the gender war, he isn't abusive and he also demonstrates empathy towards the opposite sex.

 

In other cases...well, the recent Kali thread demonstrated the tendency a minority of frustrated "nice guys" have to be so self involved and embittered about this whole "women prefer jerks" thing that they will react abusively to a woman who is in an abusive relationship. Which is pretty messed up.

 

Articulate as ever Taramere.

 

I was very disturbed by the male posters that came in that site to talk about themselves while rallying against Kali.

[Metis]

To begin with, some of these guys seem to be each other's sock puppets. So I suspect their actual number is a lot smaller than there seems to be.

 

I think the biggest problem these self-appointed "nice guys" have has to do with standards. The complaint basically boils down to this:

 

They are just ordinary, unremarkable, good-natured "good men" who have been "burned" (translation: no good looks, no remarkable intelligence, largely incapable of sustaining conversation, moody, no income, but willing to go so far as to not call a girlfriend names), and all they want is a good-looking girl who can take care of herself, is always in a jolly good mood and pays the bills. In the mythical good-old days, a "good man" could just point at a girl like that and say "I want this", and she would be grateful for having been chosen, or at least not have any right to say "no". It was relationship heaven. But then feminism came along, and now good-looking girls who can take care of themselves, and sustain a conversation at a party, are stuck-up bitches who only want "players" (translation: good-looking guys who can take care of themselves, sustain a conversation at a party, and pay the bills).

 

It seems to me, "nice guys" have a choice: either look for dates at your own level and be forgiving of physical and psychological flaws of the type that you yourself have, or, if you want someone who is more attractive and exciting than you are, then you gotta step it up a little and improve yourself. Easier said than done, I know, but even doing it will get easier if one realizes that no one, absolutely no one, is entitled to a relationship or even casual sex.

[fortyninethousand322]

To begin with, some of these guys seem to be each other's sock puppets. So I suspect their actual number is a lot smaller than there seems to be.

 

I think the biggest problem these self-appointed "nice guys" have has to do with standards. The complaint basically boils down to this:

 

They are just ordinary, unremarkable, good-natured "good men" who have been "burned" (translation: no good looks, no remarkable intelligence, largely incapable of sustaining conversation, moody, no income, but willing to go so far as to not call a girlfriend names), and all they want is a good-looking girl who can take care of herself, is always in a jolly good mood and pays the bills. In the mythical good-old days, a "good man" could just point at a girl like that and say "I want this", and she would be grateful for having been chosen, or at least not have any right to say "no". It was relationship heaven. But then feminism came along, and now good-looking girls who can take care of themselves, and sustain a conversation at a party, are stuck-up bitches who only want "players" (translation: good-looking guys who can take care of themselves, sustain a conversation at a party, and pay the bills).

 

It seems to me, "nice guys" have a choice: either look for dates at your own level and be forgiving of physical and psychological flaws of the type that you yourself have, or, if you want someone who is more attractive and exciting than you are, then you gotta step it up a little and improve yourself. Easier said than done, I know, but even doing it will get easier if one realizes that no one, absolutely no one, is entitled to a relationship or even casual sex.

 

Oh bologna! I always go for women well below my level of attractiveness because I know for a fact that women at or above my level would rather date a fence post than me. I have repeatedly said I would love to date a) an older woman b) a woman with a history of abusive relationships c) a clingy woman d) a woman who isn't the most gorgeous woman e) a woman who is all of the above. But, I have gotten taken to task by other women on this forum for suggesting that I could "settle" for someone, like it would be unfair to the woman I settled for. Well honestly, who cares?! Not me that's for sure.

 

Then we have the issue of what I've learned from this forum. In past threads women and men have cheered (not all mind you but many) when a poster complained about dating an inexperienced man, or when a man complained that a woman judged him because of his lack of dating history. So, it seems that normal, well adjusted women demand men who have dating and relationship (not to mention sexual) history.

 

But, as I said above, the women who probably would have me, the ones with abusive histories, we are told "you don't want that kind of woman anyway". Well come on, what kind of woman do you want us to go for? None? If you want us out of gene pool just say so, I'll be glad to oblige (either by jumping off a bridge or becoming a eunuch, probably the latter since I'm a bit wary of heights).

 

And I don't blame women, I blame men, the men who are good with women. If they would just stick with one woman and leave the rest for the guys without one, there would be a whole lot less competition for a woman's attention. I don't want competition, I want it to be easy.

[fortyninethousand322]

Articulate as ever Taramere.

 

I was very disturbed by the male posters that came in that site to talk about themselves while rallying against Kali.

 

I don't know, probably because she wouldn't give a guy like me or SD81, or AHDN the time of day. And even if she did she'd come on here to complain about our lack of dating or sexual history like another poster did a while back.

 

Kali sure didn't "deserve" her situation, but I'm not going to feel sorry for her nor shed any tears.

[fortyninethousand322]

Here's the other problem: I read on this forum all the time about someone being abused, cheated on, or a guy does something really stupid, etc. All things that I would never do. If a woman slept with me on a first date, or started talking about kids and marriage I wouldn't think less of her, or duck tail and run. Now, I'd prefer not to sleep with her on the first date or talk about kids and marriage but still I'd stick with her.

 

But, often enough women run into these trashy men who do run, or cheat, or abuse their girlfriends. And all I can think is "wow I must really be worth less than the garbage these women are dating". That's enough to stick in your crawl big time. And that definitely leads to bitterness.

[Metis]

Fortyninethousand322: It's not my place to tell you what women you should go for. The kind that you are attracted to, I guess; you just have to be realistic about your prospects and what you should do to attract that woman depending on her looks, level of education, wealth, and appeal to men in general. Obviously the more men a woman has to choose from, the lower your chances are of getting her to go out with you, and it works the other way around too.

 

As for dating history and so forth: Apart from internet discussions with anonymous strangers, one's sexual past and "dating history" are not an appropriate subject for a conversation. Sure, prospective partners should disclose their sexual orientations and whether they have STD's or kids or weird sexual fetishes -- but beyond that, one's past is off limits. I would never ask a man to tell me about his past relationships or his sexual experiences, or how many partners he's had; if he volunteered it, I would find it a turn-off, just as if he asked me for mine. Most women I know feel the same way. So I don't see why your "dating history" should be an issue at all when you ask someone out. Do you, like, give a woman your resume in the same sentence that you are inviting her for coffee?

 

Of course, if a man did let slip that, at an age of 30-something, he has never been in a relationship (in a relationship, I'm not talking about sex), that would raise serious questions about ability to sustain one).

[fortyninethousand322]

Fortyninethousand322: It's not my place to tell you what women you should go for. The kind that you are attracted to, I guess; you just have to be realistic about your prospects and what you should do to attract that woman depending on her looks, level of education, wealth, and appeal to men in general. Obviously the more men a woman has to choose from, the lower your chances are of getting her to go out with you, and it works the other way around too.

 

Well see that's just it, I have no idea where to look for women who might not have their pick of men and I don't know what else to do to make myself more attractive other than to have more confidence. I mean I already have a college education, I'm already a pretty interesting person, and I'm in pretty good shape.

 

 

 

As for dating history and so forth: Apart from internet discussions with anonymous strangers, one's sexual past and "dating history" are not an appropriate subject for a conversation. Sure, prospective partners should disclose their sexual orientations and whether they have STD's or kids or weird sexual fetishes -- but beyond that, one's past is off limits. I would never ask a man to tell me about his past relationships or his sexual experiences, or how many partners he's had; if he volunteered it, I would find it a turn-off, just as if he asked me for mine. Most women I know feel the same way. So I don't see why your "dating history" should be an issue at all when you ask someone out. Do you, like, give a woman your resume in the same sentence that you are inviting her for coffee?

 

Of course, if a man did let slip that, at an age of 30-something, he has never been in a relationship (in a relationship, I'm not talking about sex), that would raise serious questions about ability to sustain one).

 

Yeah well in that thread I was talking about several women in their 20s said that too, that they would be worried about a guy with no relationship history as it would suggest that maybe perhaps they can't really sustain one. And if the general cutoff date is 30 or so, well then I've got only 7 years to shape up.

 

And no, I don't give my dating resumes out while asking a girl to coffee. But, I do have a fear of getting a few dates with a girl and she somehow puts two and two together and realizes I don't have much history and then bolts. I'd strongly prefer that not to happen.

[oaks]

So, it seems that normal, well adjusted women demand men who have dating and relationship (not to mention sexual) history.

 

I think that people typically want people with broadly similar levels of relationship and sexual experiences. That's just my theory - no data. If "normal, well adjusted women" are the kind with typical relationship and sexual history (ie, some) then your observation doesn't surprise me.

 

I don't want competition, I want it to be easy.

 

Oh. Well. Sorry, but the world doesn't work like that.

[fortyninethousand322]

I think that people typically want people with broadly similar levels of relationship and sexual experiences. That's just my theory - no data. If "normal, well adjusted women" are the kind with typical relationship and sexual history (ie, some) then your observation doesn't surprise me.

 

 

 

Oh. Well. Sorry, but the world doesn't work like that.

 

So what does that mean for me? Like, am I completely screwed? Or should I lie about my past (you know make up a bunch of stories about flings and nonexistent girlfriends)?

 

And the second part, well that becomes more and more obvious everyday.

[thatone]

 

Yeah well in that thread I was talking about several women in their 20s said that too, that they would be worried about a guy with no relationship history as it would suggest that maybe perhaps they can't really sustain one. And if the general cutoff date is 30 or so, well then I've got only 7 years to shape up.

 

And no, I don't give my dating resumes out while asking a girl to coffee. But, I do have a fear of getting a few dates with a girl and she somehow puts two and two together and realizes I don't have much history and then bolts. I'd strongly prefer that not to happen.

 

i'll let you in on a little secret.

 

those younger women (as in their 20s) who say they won't date men without relationship experience and persistently date older men are that way because THEY don't know what they want either. they want someone to tell them what to do.

[sweetjasmine]

I don't know, probably because she wouldn't give a guy like me or SD81, or AHDN the time of day. And even if she did she'd come on here to complain about our lack of dating or sexual history like another poster did a while back.

 

Kali sure didn't "deserve" her situation, but I'm not going to feel sorry forher nor shed any tears.

 

So a person wholly unconnected to you who is being abused is not worthy of empathy because, what, you have dating problems? "I refuse to feel sorry for you because other women won't validate my worth by going out with me."

 

Do you judge a man's value by whether he can get a date? Apparently you do, since you seem to believe that the poster's abuser is "worth more" than you are. This is a warped perspective, and I hope you can find a way to change it.

 

Honestly, that post you wrote is deeply disturbing.