Engaged to somone who is not pretty...to me

[moontiger]

I am a 32 year old woman. I am a former professor. I wore a ponytail like your fiancee, went to the best school in the world in my field, and was far more concerned with inner beauty than outer. My ex and I had an apartment together and were planning our wedding.

 

Four months ago, he left. He told me that the main reason was that he wasn't physically attracted to me, in part because I was 20 lbs overweight and he liked thin women. Physical attraction was important to him, he said, and he couldn't stand the lack of it any more and even though I was a super-awesome person he just didn't want to marry me. And I deserved a better man than him.

 

Note that I was going to the gym and working hard on losing the 20 lbs and he knew it. He also knew how sensitive I was about it.

 

So let me tell you the story from the other side; how I felt and where I went from the most humiliating and hurtful thing that has ever happened to me.

 

After he left, I went directly into counseling, as I have always been very shy about my body and I did not want his words or feelings to cause me any lasting damage. Several therapists immediately told me the same thing; that my weight or whatever was probably not the real reason--it was just smoke.

 

And they were right: He and I had much deeper problems. From his teenage years, my ex had a rather unusual fetish that could not be satisfied by a real human being. His pornography and fantasies all centered around this fetish, not around sex with women. He was unable to orgasm from ordinary sexual contact with a woman, or could do so only with tremendous difficulty. His fetish was something that he was terribly, terribly ashamed of.

 

He had told me that he left previous partners because he got too ashamed of his fetish, but told them--and at the time himself believed--that he had left over religious differences, etc. I think the same thing happened in our relationship. He found it far easier to blame me (probably subconsciously) and my body for his failure to perform and sexual frustration than to face the demons within himself. And that is the idea of psychological projection.

 

So OP, I don't know if this applies to you, but I'd say--especially if the attraction comes and goes--that there may be something deeper going on. Sometimes what you see in other people is more a reflection of what is in you.

 

As to what became of me, four months ago, I was devastated. Now, not so much. If you had told me before that somebody would dump me this way and for this reason, I would have told you I could not imagine living with the shame and hurt and humiliation. In fact, I am perfectly fine.

 

Curiously, his "honesty" helped me get over him; because of the things he said to me and the attitude he expressed toward my body, my ex is the only one of my ex'es I feel no respect or affection for whatsoever.

 

I think of him less and less, and when I do it is with resentment, disgust, and some pity. When I think of him, I remember the way I felt about myself and my body around him; how I gave him my body and he used it without loving it, and all the while told me lies about how beautiful he thought I was. How he had issues, and took them out on me, and was a "perfectionist" when he was so very imperfect himself, physically and otherwise. I remember the horrible feelings when he tried changing me so he would find me more attractive; pressing me to wear ugly lingerie and getting angry and baleful when I wouldn't, pointing out how pretty other women were, bullying me to go to the gym...

 

And had I known the extent of his physical aversion to me during the relationship, I would have left--whether I was in my 30s or 40s or 80s. Sure, I want kids--but only with a man who loves and respects me. I'd rather never have kids than have them with a man who didn't.

 

There is no way I would ever even be friends with my ex again, because I don't need anyone in my life who thinks I am fat and unattractive, let alone told me that. I only regret that it took being dumped to open my eyes and learn that I deserved better.

 

So anyway, what I'm saying is don't stay with your fiancee out of pity, or because she's 31 and you feel obligated to be a sperm bank, or because you think that you've spent so many years that spending *more* years will fix something that seems really broken.

 

If your fiancee is anything like me, it will hurt and humiliate her if you leave. It will hurt her so badly she can't breathe. For a long time anything that reminds her of you will make her cry and make her sick. And then in six months she will get over it and realize she deserved better, and that you did her a huge favor. Maybe she will forgive you one day (and if so, she is a better woman than I am--I don't think I will ever think of my ex and his parting remarks about my looks and weight, and not feel angry.)

 

Incidentally, my ex's brother married a woman who weighed 300+ lbs. Together they supported each other and she has lost 100+ lbs and continues to lose. They are blissfully happy and celebrated their fourth anniversary in July. Meanwhile ex in his endless quest for the perfect woman is lonely and single again, and I have a feeling he may always be.

Edited November 15, 2011 by moontiger

[Eternal Sunshine]

OP,

 

Is it her weight? Her skin? Her face?

 

I am just curious if it's something that can be fixed.

[xxoo]

Chiming in as a long-married woman....

 

I'd be crushed if I found out I had married a man who didn't find me pretty.

 

You made mention that people in longterm relationships might understand, but I don't think what you are describing is typical. Most men fall in love with their wife's face when they fall in love with her. If you have children, her features will appear on their faces.

 

Do you know how she feels, in general, about relationships and attraction? Is she very practical about these matters, looking for a "good match", or is she more emotional and looking for a "great love"?

 

If she is looking for a great love, please be honest with her about your feelings in general (you don't have to be specific about her appearance, but DO tell her that you don't feel deeply in love with her).

[justmeRightnow]

Hello Moontiger,

Thank you for your response and for your opinion.

Some of what you have written sounded very familiar to me......but overall I'd say that i am very different from your ex-boyfriend.....different at least in this very aspect: there's nothing weird about my sexual desires.....I can say that with total clarity and certainty in my mind.....(and there are not too many things these days that are clear to me...).

I have never had perverse fantasies ....or any weird fetish...in fact I am a guy who doesn't even like watching simple stuff like porn....find it too gross....too abrasive....too mechanic, just really not sexual at all. I like erotic movies..and I am turned on when i see a pretty couple making love to each other...in a very normal way...seeing passion is enough for me...the most arousing thing is a beautiful woman who seems to have her own brain, who is elegant and goes about sex in a very normal natural way....I don't need anything else...no tools, no instruments, no other stimulants...nothing of this sort. I am in this sense a pretty normal guy.

I can get easily orgasm....

I also don't think that if we break up with my fiancee we will feel about each other the way you're feeling about your ex-boyfriend, sorry to say that. I have too much respect for her...and can't actually imagine myself feeling bad about her at all...I have never felt angry with her....I have always admired her for the person she is - humble, gentle, hard-working, intelligent, reliable, trustworthy, never ill-wishing to others, always ready to see the positive side in others......and maybe that's also the reason why she's not seeing what's taking me so long...and why she's not reading all the stuff that I am saying here...for she doesn't think that I am a person who could maybe be this superficial.......harbor feelings of this sort that I am describing in this thread.

If we break up, I will hurt her like no one has probably ever hurt her before...but I don't think she will be looking at our relationship the way you do.....we have had too many nice years together...without many fights....and with too many nice memories....and it's also because I have not complained about her or told her things the way your ex-boyfriend seemed to have done to you....and I have not lied to her either...not used sweet words when I didn't feel them.

I have just not been totally honest with myself....wanted to have certain things go away...and waited for them to go away....looked away when I didn't find her appealing adn waited for those feelings to go away...and they went away...but it also came back....and I've been through cycles with these things.....the problem is that i've had more and more of these over the years....and fall into depression easily....then cannot concentrate for I need to be constantly thinking whether we are the right people for each other.....

and then, it's something which many of you won't probably understand or will probably feel really put off by, but when I accidently meet some beautiful woman in the street ...or a woman that would be beautiful to me......I am remained immediately of the worries that I harbor inside about my fiancee....or to say it better: I feel like a reality check hits me.....something like: I know you , you stranger are beautiful....but my fiancee is also beautiful....but then I realize that I am not able to say this to myself, for I am not feeling it that way!

I just want to be able to say: my wife, my fiancee, my girlfriend is beautiful (whether that's true or not for others...I don't care...I want that to be true for me!). And it's this moment where I become unhappy....for deep inside I don't harbor those feelings and feel as if my girlfriend was loosing to these strangers on the street...and that feeling is eating me away..for I want her to win! But no matter how I try to see it that way I don't feel she is beating them......

though she is beating the in all other aspects....and I try to be happy with that and it has brought me all the way here..where I am considering marriage for she's winning all the battles but this one.....

I thought that it was enough for me....that nothing is perfect and I should be okay with that, that I have found someone who I don't deserve..that I am already overachieving if you put it in that way.....

but somehow it just seems not to be enough for me....

or put it differently, it is enough sometimes...but there are moments where it's not...and unfortunately those come often.....too often to live a normal comforable life without having to think about it every second day.

[justmeRightnow]

OP,

 

Is it her weight? Her skin? Her face?

 

I am just curious if it's something that can be fixed.

 

Well probably a combination of things....a bit her weight though as I said, for many men out there this would not be a problem at all!!! But yes, she's a bit chubbier in certain parts....but if we use the U.S. standards...she's slim!

sometimes her skin...sometimes her face....

 

you see there are days when i find her pretty and feel so happy about it..when I have those days I feel at peace with the world and myself. When she gets up..she looks pretty, when she washes her hair.....when I look at her from a certain angle.....

but there are days, and those happen a lot when you live together, when I look at my fiancee and feel unhappy she is not pretty in my eyes......

 

isn't this normal?

Well probably it is...but the issue is also the following: a woman should be able to put on her leisure pants, have heir unwashed hair tied in a pony-tale....and still be pretty to his husband(and the other way round)...I feel, that this is the way how we should feel about ourselves.....

but in these moments I don't feel that way.

[justmeRightnow]

Chiming in as a long-married woman....

 

I'd be crushed if I found out I had married a man who didn't find me pretty.

 

You made mention that people in longterm relationships might understand, but I don't think what you are describing is typical. Most men fall in love with their wife's face when they fall in love with her. If you have children, her features will appear on their faces.

 

very happy that you stopped by here....even if you say something which contradicts what I claimed before.....

from my friends who have been in long-term relations..I have heard things which are a bit similar to what I am describing here....that's why i said..that some of the stuff will be maybe understood.

That said, i am not sure that what I am saying is typical....in fact I have come here to understand, get a sense of perspective.....of what is normal and what is not normal....for when you are in a spot where I am, you sort of don't know anymore what's normal.

I guess all the people who feel unhappy about something....and something that is somewhat not simple or totally objective...the first thing they'd experience is a sense of lost perspective...and that's my case too.

 

 

Do you know how she feels, in general, about relationships and attraction? Is she very practical about these matters, looking for a "good match", or is she more emotional and looking for a "great love"?

 

As I said....we have talked about these issues and I think she knows or feels to some degree what I am thinking......she just probably doesn't really understand how deep this is with me.....the things I said to her...for observers...people like you, this would be a red signal....but not for her..first because I also fluctuate in these feelings...so it's not totally obvious and it's not always the same....secondly because as I tried to point out, I am not making direct snidy comments....when I feel unhappy I have the tendency to start philosophical debates about stuff....we disagree there and argue....but sometimes the reason for this are much simpler than my concerns about the state of world politics etc. she also probably doesn't realize what how deep my feelings about this go because she' s looking at things positively...she always tries to see positives rather than negatives!

 

I think she's not looking for "great love"....I think that herself she mind find other man more attractive than myself....I don't know about that...I can't tell you and would never ask her about that....don't find it necessary....usually things you learn from questions like these are not those that will make your life better...if you are the man of her life..she will tell you or let you know...and if not, you don't ask whether you are.....at least that's how I feel about it.

 

She said, when we discussed our relationship, that she recognizes it's not ideal...that certain "romance" or "passion" is missing (for this is how I tried to explain what i feel is lacking for me)...but she said she thinks we have a good relationship...especially if compared to people that she knows.

I think that the problems are pretty much on my side....if I felt happy and had no doubts, we would be married by now, having children and living our life......happily!

 

 

If she is looking for a great love, please be honest with her about your

feelings in general (you don't have to be specific about her appearance, but DO tell her that you don't feel deeply in love with her).

 

I am not a "typical" insensitve guy.....I am an asswhole in my other ways (as everybody probably is)..but not in this way. I won't say things I am saying here...never...it's not necessary. If I need to say what I am saying here I would use different words....yes, use the general phrases that you've suggested. And I have already said that myself....I have already experessed that several times when we had our crisis situations.....I said many times that in my mind I feel like she's the best person on the planet (and I actually truly believe this) but my heart is not helping me out..that i am lacking the passion...and that I don't know what to do about it.

[justmeRightnow]

This has become a thread where I am publically exposing the worst of myself. Something I would not share with people who know me. As such, let me tell you something which will be probably even worse than what I have said here thus far. you should know it all...

 

I am a guy who really likes women.....but not the guy who just screws them one night and moves next. I have never been into this type of stuff....hard sex and then move on....I have never felt attractive by porn or anything that would be perverse, abrasive...etc. .

..that said I am a guy who is rather sexual or sensual...and I admit that I like women. I like to look at them,to caress them, to make love to them. I find women in very beautiful....enjoy their company...enjoy the softness, the emotionality, the tenderness....don't enjoy the company of men too much, unless they are my good friends. From my childhood I have never had problems becoming friends with women...and maybe even make them like me..even to make love with me. They were not all my girlfriends...sometimes it would be friends who felt attracted to me and I felt attracted to them even though we knew we could not become a couple....and that there are not too many women who would beak up with me in a bad way...ie.. that we would not talk with each other at all. In fact with most of them I have been able to keep in touch and like them as the people who have been part of my life.....with whom I share fond memories....they have a special place in my mind..it's compartmentalized..I think it was a question of respect too......I enjoyed sex with women who I could also respect...and who respected me...and maybe that's why we didn't mistreat each other and didn't end up hating each other....I had respect for them and they had respect for me.

in any case, there is a catch........and that's where it all becomes probably ugly. Of all the women I have been with, I felt that only two women would be right for me in terms of marriage, whom I loved in a way that was somewhat different...and I have had a long-term relationship with both. One of these women is happily married now and we keep in touch until today...the other is my fiancee with whom I have been for 5 years now. It's these two women, that I have dated the longest, that I didn't fall in immediately....in the way of "love at first sight" or "chemistry right away". In fact chemistry was probably never the real issue.....our relationships developed slowly and the more I knew them the more I liked them as people (talking was the thing we enjoyed most with each other)....and the rest just followed. But it's been, in both cases,the deficit of this "love at first sight" or "chemistry right away" that came back to haunt me...and that basically made me break up with the first women I was dating (and that was 12 years ago) and that makes me doubt myself now with my fiancee.........

in other words,I have never in my life met anyone where I felt both at the same time: the passion and the love of the other as a partner. somehow my mind and my heart (or sexual drive) went in opposite directions......

 

I have dated about 20-30 women in my life....with some I have had passion (physical passion and felt attracted to them..found them pretty in my eyes),....but we couldnt' get married to each other...for passion and good looks were not enough...and we knew it would not be enough. With my fiancee I felt that we had all that was necessary.....and have been trying to ignore some of the problems....or the one problem: the sexual/prettiness issue (they are strangely somehow interrelated..though I am not sure that it necessary has to be that way with other people..and not sure it has to be the case with me either).

I am thinking that there's a possibility that I am simply a weird undeserving man..somehow who is basically incapable to be with anyone....probably to spend his life alone because he's looking for something that doesn't exist (and that he himself in his inperfections cannot satisfy and should not be entitled to)......

I have started contemplating this too...that maybe I have never understood that about myself...that I am strange and a total weirdo...even if I don't do weird things. That I might live my life alone...without children or a wife. ...

but that itself is a strange thought because I like the company of others, I like people....I think (though this thread might not suggest that), that people like me too.....and women do as well...(this is not trying to brag here...no point in that...and given what I have said and what mess I am in, probably no one can suspect me of trying to do that anyway.............this is a confession of what I truly believe is the truth.....with the bad and the good, with the delusional and the less delusional).

 

I feel happy around people....I love kids and have been alywas good with them...probably because somehow I am a child myself....maybe this whole thinking above suggests that.....that basically a child is putting down his underdeveloped thoughts here.....

that it's just a quesiton of growing up or something.

But I have already reached that age where you can't talk about growing up....I lost my parents to an ugly disease....and have lived in different places, had responsiblity in my work....it's not that I can somehow wait to grow up.....the chances are I never will if that's the problem.

 

If I break up, I am not certain that I will feel a great sense of relief.......as some of you suggest. To be honest, if I break up I feel like I will have to run away from everyone....not just from our friends that we share together with my fiancee, but also from my family and from my friends...why? because I would not want to answer the questions of why......I would not want to explain....and I would feel like a real failure.....a human failure, a person that failed...failed others, failed my fiancee and failed himself.

I can see myself feeling far from relieved...in fact feeling even more lost. But this is not the reason why I am worried about breaking-up.

I can't beak up for a far simpler reason: I don't want to hurt her...whenever I think about the day to do that....i feel it's not the right day...it's not the right decision..then I postpone....and so I postpone our wedding as well....feeling that it's not the right thing to do.

 

People say that after confessions, one feels better.

coming back to this thread and writing what I am writing....it only feels worse....

[xxoo]

Have you talked to a counselor about your uncertainty?

 

You describe yourself as a sexual, sensual man who loves women. Yet you only make love to your fiance once every 2-3 weeks. (did you say that she would like more?)

 

Consider that it is not the right question to ask "Is this normal?" You will probably be able to find others in similar situations.

 

The better question may be "Is this sustainable?" And I think the answer is, No. After meeting your needs of wife and family, I think you will fall further into a "friends" relationship, seek passion, and have an affair. If you ask around, you might also hear that is "normal", but is that the future you wish to create?

 

Maybe there is a reason that you find women you are sexual attracted to unsuitable as marriage partners. Maybe there is something you will discover in counseling that will help you see things more clearly.

 

Final note--I've been with my H over 20 years. I don't know and don't care if he is the most handsome man. What I know, with absolutely certainty, is that his face is my FAVORITE face. Well, his and our kids' faces

 

My H tells me I am "sooooooo pretty", when my hair is tied up and I have no make up on and I think I look a hot mess

 

Love is blind. I don't think you are in love.

[Els]

Love is blind. I don't think you are in love.

 

I agree completely with this.

 

I feel for you, OP, I really do. It must be heartwrenching to be in this sort of position. I think counseling might help you consider your options better. I urge you, though, to not decide based on a 'you deserve everything you want in a partner' mentality. Nobody deserves anything in this life, life owes nobody anything. There are indeed people who go through life never meeting someone whom they are fully compatible with and attracted to - I have several relatives like that. Some settled and married 'mr/ms right enough', some chose to remain single. Each has its own benefits and drawbacks.

 

Speaking for myself, the bf I am currently with is the only man whom I've ever been attracted to intellectually, emotionally and physically. I think this is a very rare find, IMO. But my previous R, in which the guy was objectively quite physically unattractive... it really wasn't too bad. Not sure how well that bodes for a marriage, since we never got to that stage, but it was an enjoyable R despite the fact that I did not objectively find his face handsome. Sex was no problem for me, I don't need to find a man handsome to enjoy sex. Also, I liked looking at him even though I knew he was not handsome.

[Els]

Well probably it is...but the issue is also the following: a woman should be able to put on her leisure pants, have heir unwashed hair tied in a pony-tale....and still be pretty to his husband(and the other way round)...I feel, that this is the way how we should feel about ourselves.....

but in these moments I don't feel that way.

 

Re-read your thread, OP, and just putting it out there - have you done some preliminary assessments for OCD or talked to some therapists about your thought patterns? I'm certainly not qualified to diagnose you, but it sounds like a possibility to me, especially given your 'buyers anxiety' and some of the thought patterns you expressed.

 

I think the average person does not expect to look at their partner and go, "Omigosh, he/she's so handsome/pretty!" all the time. It's okay to have discrepancies, times when they really aren't in the most flattering condition. But you seem to feel that something integral is missing just because there are times when you don't feel that attracted to the partner that you live with, and this goes to the extent that you only feel 'at peace' when she turns up in a flattering look.

 

This in no way diminishes the issue in itself, but if you feel my words ring true, they might help on the path to self-discovery.

[xxoo]

I think the average person does not expect to look at their partner and go, "Omigosh, he/she's so handsome/pretty!" all the time. It's okay to have discrepancies, times when they really aren't in the most flattering condition. But you seem to feel that something integral is missing just because there are times when you don't feel that attracted to the partner that you live with, and this goes to the extent that you only feel 'at peace' when she turns up in a flattering look.

 

Reading Elswyth's take on this, I understand a little better.

 

No, I don't always think my H looks so handsome. Sometimes I think he looks ragged, but it is the exception--and then I usually say something (in a kind and/or humorous tone) like "You look ragged! Are you ok? Do you need a rest?"

 

It sounds like, for the OP, it is the exception when he thinks his wife looks pretty. That's not normal, imo or ime.

[Ruby_shoes]

Well probably a combination of things....a bit her weight though as I said, for many men out there this would not be a problem at all!!! But yes, she's a bit chubbier in certain parts....but if we use the U.S. standards...she's slim!

sometimes her skin...sometimes her face....

 

you see there are days when i find her pretty and feel so happy about it..when I have those days I feel at peace with the world and myself. When she gets up..she looks pretty, when she washes her hair.....when I look at her from a certain angle.....

but there are days, and those happen a lot when you live together, when I look at my fiancee and feel unhappy she is not pretty in my eyes......

 

isn't this normal?

Well probably it is...but the issue is also the following: a woman should be able to put on her leisure pants, have heir unwashed hair tied in a pony-tale....and still be pretty to his husband(and the other way round)...I feel, that this is the way how we should feel about ourselves.....

but in these moments I don't feel that way.

 

OP - I know exactly where you are however in my situation I have recently learned I may have some commitment issues owing to things from many, many years ago. This manifested itself in me looking at my H and 'searching' for attractiveness etc. This is a quest which will only highlight any flaws as you are looking for them. As I work on my own issues with my H I am finding that actually there are sparks - moments of chemistry like I never felt before. It all boils down to what love means to you. I know of very sparky R's that are always dramatic - sounds fun until you're in the drama!

 

Anyway, I pose this question: is there a chance this has to do with you being frightened of commitment and keeping your options open in case something better comes along later and a fear of missing out? (please I am not at all judging you ). you can only make decisions based on what you have and where you are now. If there are issues in yourself, delay the wedding and work on them together. It may bring you greater intamacy than ever before, or you may always feel ambivalent in which case you have your answer.

[Ruby_shoes]

Hello Moontiger,

Thank you for your response and for your opinion.

Some of what you have written sounded very familiar to me......but overall I'd say that i am very different from your ex-boyfriend.....different at least in this very aspect: there's nothing weird about my sexual desires.....I can say that with total clarity and certainty in my mind.....(and there are not too many things these days that are clear to me...).

I have never had perverse fantasies ....or any weird fetish...in fact I am a guy who doesn't even like watching simple stuff like porn....find it too gross....too abrasive....too mechanic, just really not sexual at all. I like erotic movies..and I am turned on when i see a pretty couple making love to each other...in a very normal way...seeing passion is enough for me...the most arousing thing is a beautiful woman who seems to have her own brain, who is elegant and goes about sex in a very normal natural way....I don't need anything else...no tools, no instruments, no other stimulants...nothing of this sort. I am in this sense a pretty normal guy.

I can get easily orgasm....

I also don't think that if we break up with my fiancee we will feel about each other the way you're feeling about your ex-boyfriend, sorry to say that. I have too much respect for her...and can't actually imagine myself feeling bad about her at all...I have never felt angry with her....I have always admired her for the person she is - humble, gentle, hard-working, intelligent, reliable, trustworthy, never ill-wishing to others, always ready to see the positive side in others......and maybe that's also the reason why she's not seeing what's taking me so long...and why she's not reading all the stuff that I am saying here...for she doesn't think that I am a person who could maybe be this superficial.......harbor feelings of this sort that I am describing in this thread.

If we break up, I will hurt her like no one has probably ever hurt her before...but I don't think she will be looking at our relationship the way you do.....we have had too many nice years together...without many fights....and with too many nice memories....and it's also because I have not complained about her or told her things the way your ex-boyfriend seemed to have done to you....and I have not lied to her either...not used sweet words when I didn't feel them.

I have just not been totally honest with myself....wanted to have certain things go away...and waited for them to go away....looked away when I didn't find her appealing adn waited for those feelings to go away...and they went away...but it also came back....and I've been through cycles with these things.....the problem is that i've had more and more of these over the years....and fall into depression easily....then cannot concentrate for I need to be constantly thinking whether we are the right people for each other.....

and then, it's something which many of you won't probably understand or will probably feel really put off by, but when I accidently meet some beautiful woman in the street ...or a woman that would be beautiful to me......I am remained immediately of the worries that I harbor inside about my fiancee....or to say it better: I feel like a reality check hits me.....something like: I know you , you stranger are beautiful....but my fiancee is also beautiful....but then I realize that I am not able to say this to myself, for I am not feeling it that way!

I just want to be able to say: my wife, my fiancee, my girlfriend is beautiful (whether that's true or not for others...I don't care...I want that to be true for me!). And it's this moment where I become unhappy....for deep inside I don't harbor those feelings and feel as if my girlfriend was loosing to these strangers on the street...and that feeling is eating me away..for I want her to win! But no matter how I try to see it that way I don't feel she is beating them......

though she is beating the in all other aspects....and I try to be happy with that and it has brought me all the way here..where I am considering marriage for she's winning all the battles but this one.....

I thought that it was enough for me....that nothing is perfect and I should be okay with that, that I have found someone who I don't deserve..that I am already overachieving if you put it in that way.....

but somehow it just seems not to be enough for me....

or put it differently, it is enough sometimes...but there are moments where it's not...and unfortunately those come often.....too often to live a normal comforable life without having to think about it every second day.

 

I've met beautiful people who spend a long time looking amazing, their personalities are often far from it. Marry someone you can grow with, laugh with, work with, who you can talk to, who brings out good in you, and who you can do this for. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there will always be someone prettier, more attractive, more fit, maybe even with personality to boot! But then again, there may not be. Don't be frightened of life - grab it and jump in. the water is fine. The only thing that can't be changed or fixed later is lost opportunities I think you may have low self-esteem, do you feel a beautiful woman will make you look enviable or attractive? A happy wife and a good M will make you that I can promise Good luck OP!

[stillafool]

You say sometimes you look at your fiance and find her pretty, but not at other times. Is it her personal hygiene and upkeep that you find unattractive? Maybe you could suggest treating her to a "makeover". It could be a gift and she will think, "this is how he wants me to look". After you see her with makeup and her hair washed and cut, and dressed nicely you can then decide whether she is attractive or not. Just a thought. However, if she is only going to do that one day, I guess it won't help. When her hair is washed and you think she looks attractive, say; "I really like it when your hair looks this way". Maybe she thinks her "looks" are not that important to you. Show her that it is.

 

I am older and have been married for a number of years and my husband tells me at least once a week how beautiful I am. I don't always feel it but it makes me feel good that he thinks so.

[D86]

Why marry someone you're not attracted to? If you don't think she's hot at 30, wait till she's 40 and 50 lol

[norajane]

GreenCove has given you good answers about psychology.

 

You must be in science and expect everything to be black and white supported by proven facts.

 

Technically, from an academia or intellectual perspective the answer to the issue you've posed in your original post is actually very simple. But, you're not looking at the right issue. Your true issue is actually an emotional issue. How your fiancee physically looks is just a secondary issue masking a bigger issue. Your real issue is about your perfectionism, need for certainty, and the resulting need for control. I think what's holding you back is that you've realized that those traits are totally contrary to the idea of marriage. By getting married, your way of living is threatened at an emotional level. As a defence mechancism, your subconscious is focusing on the physical attributes of your fiancee as a way for you to back out and you know she can't change her physical attributes and society will be more accepting of this reason.

 

What you need to do is find out what are the underlying unresolved emotional issues that you have that are causing you to rely on perfectionism, certainty, and control. Once you understand that, you can let go of your need for perfectionism, certainty and control.

 

In theory you could ask everyone here for advice and debate back and forth (like you wanted to do with the psychologist), but in the end your subconscious will only allow you to do what you feel emotionally comfortable doing. Asking on a public forum will only get you so far because likely everyone who is responding is not professionally trained to help you navigate the emotional issues.

 

You probably felt managed because you weren't sure where the psychologist was leading you and you didn't see any real defined path or solution. Perfectionists like control, and you didn't have control, hence the feeling of being managed. What you didn't know was that the psychologist was likely directing you down a path of self discovery and self realization of your need for control, certainty and perfectionism, but because it made you feel managed, your subconcious didn't like it, and you didn't stick it out long enough for the psychologist to help you. You see, the real benefit from psychology does not come from the time you are with the psychologist, but the time after you have seen the psychologist where you can let things sink in and where you are able come to your own self realization and make your own decisions.

 

Psychologists are professionally trained with a Ph.D. so it's not "fluff" as you say. You need to let them guide you. A good psychologist will not tell you what to do or problem solve for you. Instead, a psychologist's role is to guide you by listening to you to identify your real issues, and asking you questions to help you self-identify and resolve various layers of conflicting emotional issues that you are experiencing. If they were to just tell us what to do, we would never do it because our own ego will resist anything that threatens it.

 

 

 

This is a classic response from a committment phobic person. You cannot make a decision to proceed forward or to end the relationship because that would mean making a commitment to something to which you have no certainty about the outcome. Instead you avoid the decision hoping the other person would make the decision for you.

 

 

 

Here's the thing.. if wait until you're ready, you'll never get there. Life is like that. Life is about assessing the situation and making the best decision within that situation. You have to learn how to live with the uncertainty. You just make it work.

 

This is an excellent post, and one the OP is having trouble digesting, again preferring to focus on his fiance's face and whether her hair is freshly washed.

 

Fear of commitment, perfectionism, need for control - all of those issues will still remain with you no matter who you are with.

 

You can give in to these issues and dump your fiance, but until you deal with these issues properly, no woman can fix them for you. You can jump to someone else, but you will then find something about her, too, that will bring you to this same place that you are in now sooner or later.

 

I'm not saying stay with your fiance. Personally, I think she'd be better off without you. There are many wonderful, healthy men out there who will be open to her in a way you are not. She can do better than this.

 

But I am saying that your issues will follow you no matter who you are with. And they will cause you to find fault and to not feel right about the relationship.

[justmeRightnow]

Re-read your thread, OP, and just putting it out there - have you done some preliminary assessments for OCD or talked to some therapists about your thought patterns? I'm certainly not qualified to diagnose you, but it sounds like a possibility to me, especially given your 'buyers anxiety' and some of the thought patterns you expressed.

 

Hello Elswyth,

thank you for your response here.

I have just checked what OCD stands for....obviously, as must have been already clear from my previous posts and the mistakes I make in English, I am not from the U.S.

I have never tried to test for OCD...in fact until a few years ago I probably would have never thought I would need any kind of psych. tests.....

I was for a large part of my life an extremely happy individual.....as a child totally ignorant to some degree of my environment, doing my own thing...as a young adult, things were working into my favor...at least so I thought. I never had to think about the quesiton of "happiness".

This actually changed a few years ago...a few things happened at the same time....

I don't think I have OCD though I could clearly see some symptoms....overall though I'd say it's simpler than that: unhappiness.

I probably spend time on things I would not likely spend time on if I lived the life i did 5-7 years ago....I would certainly not be haning around on internet forums asking for help..not back then.

But life is not simple, or at least it's not simple for me now anymore....

and I appreciate now help that I can get on this forum.

I might be a wiser person than in my ignorant youth, but funnily enough it has not made me happier.

not sure if that makes sense as an asnwer.

[justmeRightnow]

Have you talked to a counselor about your uncertainty?

 

You describe yourself as a sexual, sensual man who loves women. Yet you only make love to your fiance once every 2-3 weeks. (did you say that she would like more?)

 

Consider that it is not the right question to ask "Is this normal?" You will probably be able to find others in similar situations.

 

The better question may be "Is this sustainable?" And I think the answer is, No. After meeting your needs of wife and family, I think you will fall further into a "friends" relationship, seek passion, and have an affair. If you ask around, you might also hear that is "normal", but is that the future you wish to create?

 

Maybe there is a reason that you find women you are sexual attracted to unsuitable as marriage partners. Maybe there is something you will discover in counseling that will help you see things more clearly.

 

Final note--I've been with my H over 20 years. I don't know and don't care if he is the most handsome man. What I know, with absolutely certainty, is that his face is my FAVORITE face. Well, his and our kids' faces

 

My H tells me I am "sooooooo pretty", when my hair is tied up and I have no make up on and I think I look a hot mess

 

Love is blind. I don't think you are in love.

 

 

 

XXOO,

again, thank you for the reply.I feel that your posts make a lot of sense to me....somehow you appear to be like a very balanced person.

As to your question: is it sustainable?

That is exactly the problem here....I am worried to get married for I am worried that something like that what you described might happen.....I don't trust myself......I have much greater trust in my finacee than in myself....this is the reason why i am reluctant to just jump into marriage......for it's not just question of now...but also a question of 4-5 years from now on, 10 years, 20 years etc. I don't want to become a man who lies......I come from a place - from a cultural background - where having affairs is not much of a big deal...in fact a lot of my professional friends would probably admit of having had affairs in their life...I think that the culture in the United States is different in this regard....so the question what is "normal", as you suggest, will differ from place to place and people to people. That said, I thought when I was younger that I would not become a married man who would do things like that....and had quite the contempt for men who did it (obviously, didn't think much of women having affairs....though they also exist).

I think that I would not want to live a life in lies......and cheating is living such a life. But if I am honest with myself...I feel I might be heading down that road......you said it yourself well...it's a question of which future one wants to create?

 

 

Final note--I've been with my H over 20 years. I don't know and don't care if he is the most handsome man. What I know, with absolutely certainty, is that his face is my FAVORITE face. Well, his and our kids' faces

 

My H tells me I am "sooooooo pretty", when my hair is tied up and I have no make up on and I think I look a hot mess

 

Yeah, that sounds like a future I'd like to have too. Be able to say in an honest way what you have just put down in a few sentences.

 

 

Love is blind. I don't think you are in love.

 

....it pains me to think that you are right.

it's even worse for maybe I don't even know what it means anymore.....

 

though i see a few friends around me who seem to be truly in love....somehow it feels to me that they are simplyfing things..sort of not really seing the whole picture.it's very difficult to understand them...but it's nice to see it anyways.....it's nice to feel some of that simplicity of "love" with too many questionmarks.

[justmeRightnow]

[

 

Have you talked to a counselor about your uncertainty?

 

You describe yourself as a sexual, sensual man who loves women. Yet you only make love to your fiance once every 2-3 weeks. (did you say that she would like more?)

 

Consider that it is not the right question to ask "Is this normal?" You will probably be able to find others in similar situations.

 

The better question may be "Is this sustainable?" And I think the answer is, No. After meeting your needs of wife and family, I think you will fall further into a "friends" relationship, seek passion, and have an affair. If you ask around, you might also hear that is "normal", but is that the future you wish to create?

 

Maybe there is a reason that you find women you are sexual attracted to unsuitable as marriage partners. Maybe there is something you will discover in counseling that will help you see things more clearly.

 

 

 

 

XXOO,

again, thank you for the reply.I feel that your posts make a lot of sense to me....somehow you appear to be like a very balanced person.

As to your question: is it sustainable?

That is exactly the problem here....I am worried to get married for I am worried that something like that what you described might happen.....I don't trust myself......I have much greater trust in my finacee than in myself....this is the reason why i am reluctant to just jump into marriage......for it's not just question of now...but also a question of 4-5 years from now on, 10 years, 20 years etc. I don't want to become a man who lies......I come from a place - from a cultural background - where having affairs is not much of a big deal...in fact a lot of my professional friends would probably admit of having had affairs in their life...I think that the culture in the United States is different in this regard....so the question what is "normal", as you suggest, will differ from place to place and people to people. That said, I thought when I was younger that I would not become a married man who would do things like that....and had quite the contempt for men who did it (obviously, didn't think much of women having affairs....though they also exist).

I think that I would not want to live a life in lies......and cheating is living such a life. But if I am honest with myself...I feel I might be heading down that road......you said it yourself well...it's a question of which future one wants to create?

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that sounds like a future I'd like to have too. Be able to say in an honest way what you have just put down in a few sentences.

 

 

 

 

....it pains me to think that you are right.

it's even worse for maybe I don't even know what it means anymore.....

 

though i see a few friends around me who seem to be truly in love....somehow it feels to me that they are simplyfing things..sort of not really seing the whole picture.it's very difficult to understand them...but it's nice to see it anyways.....it's nice to feel some of that simplicity of "love" with too many questionmarks.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think westrock's post is probably right on as an analysis of where you are coming from personally.

 

All of that aside, though - I also agree with xxoo that, for whatever reason, you are not in love with her. There is not going to be anything she can do about her appearance that will make you love her.

 

You said, along with your criticisms about how she looks, that your heart is not in it. That says it all.

 

It's probably more about you than it is about her - but there is not any reason to subject a woman who does love you to a relationship where the love is not reciprocated. She needs to be loved by, and to love her husband. You need to be in love with the woman you marry.

 

I'm not about what people "deserve" or are entitled to - but I strongly believe that no good can come from entering into a marriage where there is great dissatisfaction at the outset.

 

I do think that you will have to do some work on yourself before you come to a place where you are able to experience the kind of love that makes for a successful marriage.

[justmeRightnow]

I agree completely with this.

 

I feel for you, OP, I really do. It must be heartwrenching to be in this sort of position. I think counseling might help you consider your options better. I urge you, though, to not decide based on a 'you deserve everything you want in a partner' mentality. Nobody deserves anything in this life, life owes nobody anything. There are indeed people who go through life never meeting someone whom they are fully compatible with and attracted to - I have several relatives like that. Some settled and married 'mr/ms right enough', some chose to remain single. Each has its own benefits and drawbacks.

 

Elswyth, this is exactly what I have been thinking too...though obviously not on a consistent basis. The idea that one deserves......

I think when I was younger I believed in: I deserve etc. But now looking at my friends,at myself...at the environment....it does seem that most of the people don't deserve..or at least don't get what they deserve.

It's a funny thing....but i have realized that where i live and people I know...a simple question like this would really make them perplexed:

 

Are you happy in your life? Are you truly happy?

 

It's a simple question and suprsingly, not too many people can answer it. Or don't want to....

I think if you asked me a few years ago, I would have not even considered it to be important...to ask this.....not anymore....probably because I am not able to answer it in the positive or with certainty.

As you said, I am not sure we deserve or that life ows us...and that many people go on and live their life with less than what one would "imagine".

This is also why I am so reluctant and uncertain.....because I am not certain that I deserve myself "better" anymore....

 

But no matter how I look at it.....I think that I'd like to be able to answer that simple question that so many people can't answer these days: are you happy? I'd like to say honestly, with real belief, YES I AM HAPPY.

 

I know that happiness is something which we carry in our minds and hearts..and I am certain that people will point out that in order to find it I need to be looking for it inside..not elsewhere. They will find this as my own fault, fault of a character etc.

But it's not that simple....if it was true, why was it not true 10 years ago or 5-7 years ago? I believe that it's a combination of things...the external and the internal...and both influence each other inter-dependetly. that's why it's difficult to make sense of it...

 

Speaking for myself, the bf I am currently with is the only man whom I've ever been attracted to intellectually, emotionally and physically. I think this is a very rare find, IMO. But my previous R, in which the guy was objectively quite physically unattractive... it really wasn't too bad. Not sure how well that bodes for a marriage, since we never got to that stage, but it was an enjoyable R despite the fact that I did not objectively find his face handsome. Sex was no problem for me, I don't need to find a man handsome to enjoy sex. Also, I liked looking at him even though I knew he was not handsome.

 

Well I don't know why but it seems that face is important for me.....I find it to be the most sexy part of a woman's body....yeah, might sound weird for others, but looking at someone's attractive face can be very erotic to me....and again here i need to stress that I am not talking about models (in fact find those often boring...the same types again and again....like Holywood actors..the same type, no real personality). I am talking about people who appeal to me......

[justmeRightnow]

wanted to write:

without too many questionmarks.

[justmeRightnow]

Anyway, I pose this question: is there a chance this has to do with you being frightened of commitment and keeping your options open in case something better comes along later and a fear of missing out? (please I am not at all judging you ). you can only make decisions based on what you have and where you are now. If there are issues in yourself, delay the wedding and work on them together. It may bring you greater intamacy than ever before, or you may always feel ambivalent in which case you have your answer.

 

Hello Ruby_shoes,

thank you for contributing to this debate. I also don't think that you are trying to be judgemental....

I am not sure about the fright of commitment...and keepoing my options open....or fear of missing out..

it certainly might be true...and if that's so and if that's what you are reading into my posts (and it seems that some people see exactly that) it might be there without me knowing...or not being aware of it.....it wouldn't be surprising given that there are many things others see about us but we don't understand them ourselves.

that said, if I tell you how I feel about it inside..it's more like: it's not about being affraid of missing out on something....I have said it before and will repeat it as this is what I believe it's true: I really do think my fiancee is unique..spending time with her never felt boring or missing out on something in this regard...

I am afraid of myself...of the fact that I am not feeling what a man who enters a marriage should feel....and that it will be a failure for that reason..that I might start cheating..or that we won't work out...

as I said before...for a guy, making a mistake is not always a big deal...but not for a girl..I feel. My fiancee is now in an age where she needs to start thikning about having a baby..something she wants..and having it with the right partner....and I am worried that with the feelings I am harboring, I am not the right guy!

If it was just about me, I would get married, divorced...marry again? It's not something I ever wanted..but eventually many people have done that...God knows...

 

but I think all this becomes incredibly difficult if you are a girl.

This is not to sound sexist or anything....it just appears to me that way.If I tell my fiancee let's do it....I want to be sure that I feel we can do it...be certain emotionally about it......for it's clear that in real life we never know how it will pan out....but at least I want to feel that I can honor my commitment...

So I am afraid of the commiment not because of the commitment itself..but because of the nagging feeling that i can't trust my emotions....that they are pulling me sometimes very strongly away from keeping the bond!

or put it differently: I am not afraid of responsibility...have never been afraid of that.....I am afraid of the feeling which tells me that I don't want to accept certain responsibility because I am not certain I can meet the expectations....

put it in an example: if someone was to offer you a manger's job...you might accept it feeling that you can do it.....though eventually you will fail at that job anyways....i.e. you will feel you can meet the expectations but in reality, there are too many things you need to take care of and too many variables you cannot take care of...and you fail. Or you can take the job with the feeling that you actually won't make it.....and there's again the possiblity that eventually it'll work out for you...but I believe it's slim..or at least slimmer than with the people who, at the start , feel at least (though don't really know) that they can do it....

and in my case I feeling like turning down the offer of because I am not not feeling I can manage it.....and maybe also because I am not sure I want to do that kind of job..though in some respects it's a dream job.

it's also in this way how you can think of the commitment problem...

Edited November 17, 2011 by justmeRightnow

[justmeRightnow]

I've met beautiful people who spend a long time looking amazing, their personalities are often far from it. Marry someone you can grow with, laugh with, work with, who you can talk to, who brings out good in you, and who you can do this for. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there will always be someone prettier, more attractive, more fit, maybe even with personality to boot! But then again, there may not be. Don't be frightened of life - grab it and jump in. the water is fine. The only thing that can't be changed or fixed later is lost opportunities I think you may have low self-esteem, do you feel a beautiful woman will make you look enviable or attractive? A happy wife and a good M will make you that I can promise Good luck OP!

 

Ruby_shoes,

I have said a lot of horrible things about myself here....but I wouldn't say I have low self-esteem....i.e. looking for a woman that would represent me as a kind of ornament...car or anything like that. I don't need men to look at my woman and go: whaaaaa, she's hot. In fact I'd probably make me feel a bit unconfortable if every second idiot felt the need to chat up my girlfriend/wife. Truly I would be just happy if she was pretty to me...

 

that said I admit that girls whom I find pretty are probably attractive women overall......but they are definitely not the prototype of big boobs, blod hair, big lips type...I'd say elegant women, with style....

[norajane]

You've been together 5 years. And asked her to marry you.

 

How did you manage all that time with her when you think she is unattractive?

 

Can you consider that you are thinking she is more and more unattractive precisely because it is getting close to that time to actually marry her?

 

You don't think that your fear of commitment issues are playing tricks on your mind and making her more unattractive so that you can rationalize running away?

 

Your fears will manifest themselves no matter who you are with. If you don't address them, you will always want to "turn down the CEO job" even though you are ALREADY DOING the job successfully and have for years.