Why Do Men Keep Falling for Women's Manipulative Shaming Tactics?

[Taramere]

:lmao: You mean your man doesn't put his other hand on your butt to propel you through the door? What on earth is he thinking? He's obviously not a Real Man.

 

Well, naturally he does. When somebody opens a door for me I tend to get a bit feline and uncertain about whether or not I actually want to walk through it.

 

A proper, real man will gently shove me through the doorway into the restaurant then grab me by the shoulders in a deft movement that both ensures I don't fall over and results in the removal of my coat.

[betterdeal]

They are simple yet very powerful and effective tactics that even men themselves have learned to accept and even use them to shame other men.

 

Hmm, not really *that* powerful:

 

So I'm an imaginary man.

 

There, the Jedi mind-trick is defeated.

[zengirl]

You just did, right in the same post, it merely needs translating:

 

It merely needs the reasonable leap from "bitter" to "not a real man." We aren't stupid, regardless of semantics, the manipulative intent is transparent.

 

I don't see the parallel. I was not questioning his masculinity at all there. The phrase "real man" is designed to question a man's masculinity if he does not do certain things. I have no doubt of the poster's masculinity, but his thoughts are bitterness that is poisoning his life is all. And I've no desire to manipulate him--- it's no skin of my back, if his life's unhappy! And bitterness is, in no way, confined to either men or women. It'll kill the happiness of everyone equally; it does not discriminate.

[zengirl]

As noted already, plenty of "savvy" guys use these very behaviors to manipulate women.

 

These behaviors have their roots back in Mediaeval times. They were considered "courtly." They were developed by men, not women; knights and courtiers specifically.

 

Like lots of other manners, they might be arcane and quaint. I honestly don't believe that they are debasing to men unless the man who is doing them feels that way. If that is the case - he is doing himself a disservice, and should never open the door for a woman or pay for a date again.

 

My husband likes to do many of the things on that list, and his feelings would be hurt if I put a stop to it.

 

If we are going out to dinner, I do wait for him to open the car door for me. I took his cue on that; when we were dating he made quite an effort to be at the door on time to open it for me so I felt like I was showing a lot more appreciation for the effort he was making than I would be if I dismissed it. Frankly, it was hard for me to get used to!

 

In everyday life, though, we may have been unloading several tons of hay together earlier that day.

 

Yes to all of that. Like your husband, my BF also gets disappointed if I pay too many times or open my own car door; it disappoints him to not do certain things on that list for me. I suppose the OP would presume his Mama or some other woman brainwashed him, but I'm pretty sure my BF would find that assumption quite offensive.

 

If someone feels ANYTHING is debasing to them, they should find a partner that does not expect that of them or stay single if there is no acceptable partner. That applies to women or men, to that list or any other, really.

[betterdeal]

Yes to all of that. Like your husband, my BF also gets disappointed if I pay too many times or open my own car door; it disappoints him to not do certain things on that list for me. I suppose the OP would presume his Mama or some other woman brainwashed him, but I'm pretty sure my BF would find that assumption quite offensive.

 

I do those sorts of things because I'm a brutish lover who needs you more than I love you.

[zengirl]

I do those sorts of things because I'm a brutish lover who needs you more than I love you.

 

Ha! You know betterdeal, I actually never knew whether you were a man or a woman.

 

My BF is very loving and not at all brutish, though I'm not suggesting opening a car door is any sort of assessment on either of those factors, really. To me, it's mostly irrelevant. It's cute, and it continues because he likes it, and, at this point, I'd wonder about it if it changed (because it's been so consistent with him), but it's not something I looked for in a man. Just something that exists in the man I looked for.

[Mrlonelyone]

I must rebut those who are trying to say that these "REAL MEN" tm standards don't exist.

 

I am a transgendered woman, who while 95% into men, came here for help with that 5% of my romantic life that has been about women hence the name MrLonelyOne. That means I live as, dress as, have all my legal identity doccuments which say female.

 

In my life I have been shamed using these "REAL MEN" ideas in ways that most of you cannot imagine.

 

From being called a sissy and a girl when I was 4 or 5, and being counted as a girl on the team when the kids would pick teams in gym class in 3rd grade. Fast forward to some of those days that I don't look my best and (ironically) get called a man. I know I know those standards exist and are enforced.

 

This is what happens to people who disregard those "Real Men" standards in the fullest way possible. They end up as a name read out on the transgender day of remembrance, they chance ending up dead.

[zengirl]

I must rebut those who are trying to say that these "REAL MEN" tm standards don't exist.

 

I am a transgendered woman, who while 95% into men, came here for help with that 5% of my romantic life that has been about women hence the name MrLonelyOne. That means I live as, dress as, have all my legal identity doccuments which say female.

 

In my life I have been shamed using these "REAL MEN" ideas in ways that most of you cannot imagine.

 

From being called a sissy and a girl when I was 4 or 5, and being counted as a girl on the team when the kids would pick teams in gym class in 3rd grade. Fast forward to some of those days that I don't look my best and (ironically) get called a man. I know I know those standards exist and are enforced.

 

This is what happens to people who disregard those "Real Men" standards in the fullest way possible. They end up as a name read out on the transgender day of remembrance, they chance ending up dead.

 

Oh, I do think there are real issues with masculinity as identity and the way it is questioned. I just don't think the OP's points here had much to do with them. You speak to a very real issue. I don't think the standards of masculinity are generally created by or most stridently applied by women (though some women participate) but by men themselves, though. I'm sure many of the bullies calling you a "sissy" were male, perhaps much a higher % based on the dynamics I've seen with children and such things.

 

I think many things are unfair for such children and adults, and that you raise a lot of EXTREMELY important issues----but that they're issues that should not be discussed in the same breath as opening doors and pulling out chairs. What you talk about are things that truly matter----and have, as you said, cost people their lives. It's a big deal.

[eatNrM]

I am not denying that there are women who use manipulation and shaming.

 

Truly, though, lots of guys do some, most or even all the things on that list not because they are falling for any "tactics" employed by women.

 

As noted already, plenty of "savvy" guys use these very behaviors to manipulate women.

 

These behaviors have their roots back in Mediaeval times. They were considered "courtly." They were developed by men, not women; knights and courtiers specifically.

 

Like lots of other manners, they might be arcane and quaint. I honestly don't believe that they are debasing to men unless the man who is doing them feels that way. If that is the case - he is doing himself a disservice, and should never open the door for a woman or pay for a date again.

 

My husband likes to do many of the things on that list, and his feelings would be hurt if I put a stop to it.

 

If we are going out to dinner, I do wait for him to open the car door for me. I took his cue on that; when we were dating he made quite an effort to be at the door on time to open it for me so I felt like I was showing a lot more appreciation for the effort he was making than I would be if I dismissed it. Frankly, it was hard for me to get used to!

 

In everyday life, though, we may have been unloading several tons of hay together earlier that day.

 

MrNate is right, though. If you like someone - and you know they like something you can do - it behooves you to do it, unless it hurts you to do so. Works for women and men equally. Makes for happy relations. Lots of us are interested in having them!

 

Exactly.

 

And in addition, it's not like women aren't going through any lengths either to help please their man.

 

I, like most guys, like girls who:

smell great

in shape (a nice pair of legs for me:love:)

passionate about something

beautiful smile

sexy

smart

charming

take care of their man sexually

 

Now, funny enough I don't see most women complaining about these. Most are out being these things. Maybe some of us guys can take a lesson and start being the things women love instead of complaining about it.

[Mrlonelyone]

Oh, I do think there are real issues with masculinity as identity and the way it is questioned. I just don't think the OP's points here had much to do with them. You speak to a very real issue. I don't think the standards of masculinity are generally created by or most stridently applied by women (though some women participate) but by men themselves, though. I'm sure many of the bullies calling you a "sissy" were male, perhaps much a higher % based on the dynamics I've seen with children and such things.

 

No they are not created by women, the whole culture creates those standards. However what the OP says about women using them to shame men I have seen it.

 

As applied to people like me it results in the old bathroom scare tactic.

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/08/11/Scare_Tactics_Used_Against_Transgender_Bill/

 

 

 

No one violates the norms outlined in the OP more than people like me. Because not only do we not open doors for women....men open doors and pull out chairs for us!

 

 

 

I think many things are unfair for such children and adults, and that you raise a lot of EXTREMELY important issues----but that they're issues that should not be discussed in the same breath as opening doors and pulling out chairs. What you talk about are things that truly matter----and have, as you said, cost people their lives. It's a big deal.

 

Its a continum, or a spectrum.

 

Normative male..........................................transgender female.

not pulling out charis ......................................having chairs pulled for you.

 

The ideas that men should do those things.

 

Pull out chairs---->Register for the draft.

 

Are linked to the extreme situation that I live out and brought up.

 

TL;DR It's not all cigars and brandy in the old boys club. That's all anyone's saying.

[verhrzn]

Wait, I'm confused.

 

I always pay for my own dinner on dates. In fact, I've even bought my date dinner. I never let guys buy me drinks (not that they do, but if they did I wouldn't let them.) I open my own doors, and pull out my own chairs, and have even done the lion's work of asking the guy out.

 

And yet one of the first reasons my friends go to as to why guys don't like me is because I'm too "masculine" and "intimidating." That by NOT letting guys do this, I am actually scaring them off. That, in fact, to get a guy to like me I need to LET him be a man, or else I am emasculating him.

 

Reading this boards, I also get the impression that IF a guy buys me dinner/drinks, then I'm expected to give him something in return, ranging anywhere from attention/interest to sex.

 

So, couldn't this argument that "women are manipulating men into doing these things for them!" also be turned on its head to say "men do these things to manipulate women into giving them what they want"?

[zengirl]

Its a continum, or a spectrum.

 

Normative male..........................................transgender female.

not pulling out charis ......................................having chairs pulled for you.

 

The ideas that men should do those things.

 

I disagree the two things are really linked. You sort of suggest, in your post, that it would bother women that men were pulling out chairs or buying dinner for a transgendered partner, but I actually would say there is evidence that women, as a whole, are less bothered by that idea than men, as a whole (certainly, there are bigots of either gender, but what you're talking about is a particular gender issue related to homophobia and gender identity, which doesn't really come into play in the "Who pays for dinner?" idea when two normative (for lack of a better term) straight people go out).

 

I think the concept of sexuality and identity is an important frontier to explore, but I don't think it's really related. In fact, ideas about masculinity and being 'gentlemanly' (for a lack of a better term) and following said manners in the OP are conflicted today. And, as another poster suggested, her femininity is often called into question as well.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of questioning one's masculinity or femininity (though I understand the need to question it within your own identity, which is what a transgendered person would go through but so would many others), but that doesn't mean certain traits aren't going to retain their desirability.

 

Example: I don't wear high heels, for instance, which I don't think impacts my femininity or identity as a woman, but it may impact my desirability with some potential partners. Seems to me the OP is really complaining about those traits being desirable. I don't think it's appropriate to question anyone's masculinity or femininity, as I said, but desiring specific traits is not the same thing.

[Taramere]

I think many things are unfair for such children and adults, and that you raise a lot of EXTREMELY important issues----but that they're issues that should not be discussed in the same breath as opening doors and pulling out chairs. What you talk about are things that truly matter----and have, as you said, cost people their lives. It's a big deal.

 

Agreed. The original list on this thread covers quite a range of behaviours. I can understand a man feeling embittered if he feels he's been forced into a life of near slavery to pay for his woman's labioplasty, boob job and face lift... so that when he collapses with fatigue she can attract another workhorse. It's less easy to understand why a man would feel embittered and oppressed about pulling out a chair for a woman. As somebody else mentioned, these little gestures don't come at any great cost....and they're indicative of mild dominance, which helps to create sexual chemistry.

 

If a man's not comfortable with them, then maybe he's not comfortable with taking the lead generally. Which isn't something he should be shamed for...but equally, women shouldn't be shamed for having a preference for men who are likely to take the lead sexually. That a woman has a mild preference for men who make chivalrous gestures on dates doesn't mean that she's knitting the names of unchivalrous men into some woolly "shame them then cut off their heads" list. Or that she carries personal responsibility for all manner of unnecessary (and dangerous) demonstrations of machismo such as the tradition of Spanish men running through their villages accompanied, or pursued by, stampeding bulls.

 

I'm sure that even if the world were entirely purged of the female gender, there would still be plenty of men engaging in overt demonstrations of machismo - or, in situations that call for more subtle displays of dominance, engaging in chivalrous gestures.

[zengirl]

I'm sure that even if the world were entirely purged of the female gender, there would still be plenty of men engaging in overt demonstrations of machismo - or, in situations that call for more subtle displays of dominance, engaging in chivalrous gestures.

 

Well, certainly. Even among gay male communities, you can see evidence of machismo and chivalry.

[grkBoy]

"Real men do this" and "real men do that" are very common manipulative tactics that women often use in order to get men do what they want them to do. They are simple yet very powerful and effective tactics that even men themselves have learned to accept and even use them to shame other men.

 

Personally I would never have recognized the existence of these manipulative shaming tactics that are routinely used by women had I not read the book "The Manipulated Man" two years ago.

 

But it saddens me to see that the majority of men are still ignorant of the fact and gleefully strive to meet the psychological deceptions that women constantly throw at them.

 

I wonder what can be done to enlighten men around the world to recognize that women are exploiting their prideful nature in order to do their dirty works?

 

Here's the mistake men make.

 

They never make "real women do..." statements.

 

Usually these debates come from the notion of how a guy tried to be all those things, but the girl ended up chasing a male who is the opposite.

 

#1, women still want good looking men. So if you're butt ugly or hopelessly bland and boring, then being all those things isn't going to mean s**t. A guy with a high income, great fashion sense, flawless profile, and toned body will still go further with the ladies than the average joe who fulfills that list you posted.

 

#2, males tend to think all women are the same. So the female who states things like on that list, but still chases the total opposite is NOT a "real woman". She's a GIRL. She's immature and not worth your time, because her ACTIONS speak way louder than her words.

 

#3, males need to accept that hot women will get special treatment in this world. Even broke unemployed drama-filled single moms are landing dates because they're hot. Beauty is seen as the valued thing, so until society itself stops pandering to physically beautiful women, not much is going to change. A hot girl can be a total manipulative spoiled bratty princess...and men will still want her over the nice girl who doesn't have a killer body and face.

 

So these women will break any and all "rules", be hypocrites, etc...and get away with it, because they have PLENTY OF OPTIONS...and there's nothing you can do about that EXCEPT not playing with those. You can complain then how all the hot women are not "good women", but it's the same complaint women make about "hot guys".

 

Be a gentleman and a good man because YOU WANT TO BE ONE...not because you want women to like you. I open doors, pull chairs, and work hard in life because I want it. Nothing more. I learned long ago that the women who looked down on me for being a gentleman are the same women who end up alone in life, still wondering why they can't land an alpha male husband.

 

Now then...stop playing with GIRLS and go find a REAL WOMAN. Start your own standards that REAL WOMEN should fulfill.

[Mme. Chaucer]

s the tradition of Spanish men running through their villages accompanied, or pursued by, stampeding bulls.

 

 

I'm loving the image!

 

Who opens the doors for whom? Bulls for men, or men for bulls?

 

I'm sure that even if the world were entirely purged of the female gender, there would still be plenty of men engaging in overt demonstrations of machismo - or, in situations that call for more subtle displays of dominance, engaging in chivalrous gestures.

 

Very true, I'm sure.

[Taramere]

 

I'm loving the image!

 

Who opens the doors for whom? Bulls for men, or men for bulls?

 

Wonder no more, Madame

 

 

Disclaimer...the posting of this link should not be construed as advice to men etc etc

[Mrlonelyone]

I disagree the two things are really linked. You sort of suggest, in your post, that it would bother women that men were pulling out chairs or buying dinner for a transgendered partner, but I actually would say there is evidence that women, as a whole, are less bothered by that idea than men, as a whole (certainly, there are bigots of either gender, but what you're talking about is a particular gender issue related to homophobia and gender identity, which doesn't really come into play in the "Who pays for dinner?" idea when two normative (for lack of a better term) straight people go out).

 

yes they are. Women are part of society and like men set the norms.

[betterdeal]

Ha! You know betterdeal, I actually never knew whether you were a man or a woman.

 

For the right money, I can be anyone you want me to be.

[betterdeal]

Well, certainly. Even among gay male communities, you can see evidence of machismo and chivalry.

 

Or Greasy F*ck Monsters and Whinging F*ckbags more commonly.

[musemaj11]

The topic that Im raising in this thread is not about women wanting to be treated this or that way, but about women using manipulative shaming tactics to get treated this or that way.

 

Its the use of psychological manipulation that Im focusing on.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Well, certainly. Even among gay male communities, you can see evidence of machismo and chivalry.

 

Amongst lesbians, also.

[carhill]

Its the use of psychological manipulation that Im focusing on.

 

Yeah, I knew where you were headed. I have some really descriptive anecdotes from my marriage however I feel it's inappropriate to share them publicly. In a dating/meeting situation with minimal investment, it's easy to walk away and, generally IME, if extant, such manipulative techniques are stowed in favor of more attractive bait. It's when one is invested and committed, like when married, that such strategies, whether 'unconscious' or purposeful, can be devastating. The content may, superficially, seem trivial, but the intent, to manipulate for unilateral personal gain, is what is injurious and devastating.

 

TBH, if I was 'ill' before regarding this stuff, one very educational marriage 'healed' me. I still pick at the wound occasionally but trust that proclivity will go away in time. Meanwhile, I hone my marksmanship skills and discharge any anger in a safe and non-manipulative manner.

[Taramere]

yes they are. Women are part of society and like men set the norms.

 

Are you unhappy with the norms of men employing chivalrous gestures with women?

 

I think you said something along the lines of you being 95% a woman who wants men, and 5% a man who is into women.

 

No one violates the norms outlined in the OP more than people like me. Because not only do we not open doors for women....men open doors and pull out chairs for us!

 

You are transgendered and feel that 95% of you is a woman who is into men. Why would men opening doors and pulling out chairs for you be a violation of the norms? Surely that would be a case of men accepting you as a woman and treating you as they treat other women...ie in accordance with certain norms?

[zengirl]

yes they are. Women are part of society and like men set the norms.

 

The transgendered are part of society too. We are all part of society. This thread is meant to be divisive, and divide what men do separate from what women do. I'm saying you raise an important issue, but I don't think it's within the sphere of what the OP was saying, as men AND women do what you've said.

 

Men AND women both emotionally manipulate as well. Carhill might have examples from his marriages, as he mentions, and certainly does, but women are not the only people who can emotionally manipulate and, as posters have said, the list in the OP is not necessarily the emotional manipulations of women. In fact, many of them are often a way men manipulate women or other men!

 

Here's the mistake men make.

 

They never make "real women do..." statements.

 

Maybe not in those terms, but surely you've heard the phrase "ladylike." There's even a word coined for all the ways women should and should not behave, and certainly while it's opened up today a bit, women have just as many gender expectations on them as men do. (And they used to have more, just a few short decades ago!) This is a problem for both genders, perpetuated by both genders, and usually men judge men more harshly for not "acting like real men" just as women judge women more harshly for not "acting ladylike" --- though both genders judge each other by those standards as well.

 

Amongst lesbians, also.

 

Of course!