Mme. Chaucer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted by Woggle Can anybody show me an example of a man posting on this board that has recieved any empathy from the majority of women? Woggle, show yourself hundreds of examples, from all the empathy YOU have received from me and many other women, on multitudes of threads here. Do you have any idea how insulting it is to spend time (or, waste time, evidently) reaching out to you and then to have you deny, over and over, that it ever happened? You have received a tremendous outpouring of empathy and sympathy, and also been "excused" for your hateful ranting against myself and all other women because of your truly sad past. Of course, no woman is excused for anything by you and your boys here, regardless of what they may have suffered complements of some male people. Only guys are afforded the luxury. Gross. Link to post Share on other sites
TheBigQuestion Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Please tell me what that position is... I can see you don't know me all that well. Most of the regular posters here know exactly where I stand.. So yes... please do look into your crystal ball and tell me where I stand. (although, you could always 'cheat' and look at my previous posts). If you'd prefer to stand on your preconceived notions... you'll find them surprisingly lacking. I'll take a guess without peeking: You don't care if a guy pays or not, but you think guys complaining about it and using it as a talking point in a crusade against women is stupid and pointless? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted by Woggle Woggle, show yourself hundreds of examples, from all the empathy YOU have received from me and many other women, on multitudes of threads here. Do you have any idea how insulting it is to spend time (or, waste time, evidently) reaching out to you and then to have you deny, over and over, that it ever happened? You have received a tremendous outpouring of empathy and sympathy, and also been "excused" for your hateful ranting against myself and all other women because of your truly sad past. Of course, no woman is excused for anything by you and your boys here, regardless of what they may have suffered complements of some male people. Only guys are afforded the luxury. Gross. I have never personally insulted you or any other woman unless they give me a reason to. I have even defended you personally before. Link to post Share on other sites
joystickd Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 There is no way you can convince the majority of men that feminism is our ally. We know better. Not for me. In a way I like women that can go toe to toe with me intellectually. I will say it turns me on. I will also say I think the biggest problem is that its titled feminism. That title raises a lot of issues with men. I say for me my motto is I don't give a sh*t. I will keep doing what I do. IMO it should have been a universal movement to change traditional gender roles and a lot of the issues associated with it wouldn't be happening now. I look at myself I'm a nurse a traditional female job. Sometimes I get asked if I am gay because I'm a single male that is 29. i selectively not say that I'm making up for lost time due to my starting late at dating because its no one's business. I know if I was in a relationship a woman that made more money than me wouldnt intimidate me because I am secure in my masculinity enough to know what I bring to the relationship and my role. I don't mind paying for the date because I essentially invited the woman so its my job to show her a good time. Whether or not I have sex doesnt matter because I had a great time with someone and I could have done the same thing by myself if it was like going to a movie. The problem is some guys use feminism as an excuse to be cheap. Feminism doesn't make me less of a man. I would be an unapologetic man whether or not feminism existed. Link to post Share on other sites
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I'll take a guess without peeking: You don't care if a guy pays or not, but you think guys complaining about it and using it as a talking point in a crusade against women is stupid and pointless? Wow. I'm sincerely impressed. You are amazingly close... Not only do I not care, I'd prefer the whole ritual was done away with... Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I have never personally insulted you or any other woman unless they give me a reason to. I have even defended you personally before. All of the trash you talk about "most women" this and "most women" that is insulting to me and all the other cool women here on LS who try to carry on a reasonable conversation with you and your peeps. I'd really like you to insert "Black people," or "men" in place of the word "women" in a bunch of your woman bashing and blaming posts, and see how you like the results. Is this the person you like to be? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 All of the trash you talk about "most women" this and "most women" that is insulting to me and all the other cool women here on LS who try to carry on a reasonable conversation with you and your peeps. I'd really like you to insert "Black people," or "men" in place of the word "women" in a bunch of your woman bashing and blaming posts, and see how you like the results. Is this the person you like to be? I really do try not to generalize all women but I don't feel that speaking about gender issues means I am trashing women. If the women here don't like all the woman bashing can't they see that men don't like the misandry either. Treat others the way you want to be treated. You don't bash men yourself but there is a lot of misandry on here and we don't like it anymore than women like misogyny. Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Treat others the way you want to be treated. You don't bash men yourself but there is a lot of misandry on here and we don't like it anymore than women like misogyny. No, there is NOT "a lot of misandry on here." On the other hand, there are at least 4 threads right on the first page that are 100% dominated by voices of hatred and sickness towards women. For your information, a person (you, for example) stating that he / she has a problem with the opposite sex because of their own experiences is in NO WAY similar to a person coming here and saying "most (or all) men / women do (insert trashy, disgusting behavior.) You are such a self indulgent person. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The misandry is much more subtle. Why is it that on a relationship board a man can't ask advice about what he is going through without being called a whiner? Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Making sweeping generalizations about how heinous women are is NOT related to a guy coming here asking for advise about what he's going through. Like this thread, for example. Where is there a guy asking for advice about what he's going through? Really? Nowhere. The thread exists to trash women, and you are a main contributor. Does that make you feel a lot better? Link to post Share on other sites
dasein Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 On the other hand, there are at least 4 threads right on the first page that are 100% dominated by voices of hatred and sickness towards women. No there aren't. Link them... all those threads that are "100% dominated by voices of hatred and sickness towards women." Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The misandry is much more subtle. Why is it that on a relationship board a man can't ask advice about what he is going through without being called a whiner? It isn't the guy asking for advice that gets him labeled a "whiner." It's when he's gotten the advice and yet CONTINUES to complain, and when his comments essentially boil down to "I shouldn't have to change ANYTHING, and women only want <insert stereotype here>" that people start getting fed up with him. I come to these boards and complain plenty about how men only want a hot girl, and I've gotten called out for being a whiner by male posters. Were they being misogynistic? No, they're just of the opinion that if I keep on complaining about it without actually DOING anything about it, I'm doing nothing but playing the victim card.* Why are guys who complain about women not wanting them any different than me? Just because they're guys? *For the record, I'd happily take suggestions, just the whole "look better by exercising and dieting!" thing is old and tired. Link to post Share on other sites
joystickd Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 This whole back and forth about misandry this or misogyny that is stupid. These guys have been hurt by women so their mind is focused on finding misandry and honestly there are some things in regards to men in the media I don't like. Women there are things about the world that are misogynistic. Each of you have evidence to prove your points. I think now is the time to look at things from the other side because all you are doing now is just arguing and talking to someone until you are blue in the face and generalizing about both sides. If you don't like what he/she says ignore it because all you are doing is adding fuel to a fire. Link to post Share on other sites
dasein Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Making sweeping generalizations about how heinous women are Cite men, other than trolls, saying this, "how heinous women are." A poster called nesaaa or somesuch came in here the other day and basically posted "why do all men suck?" in her posts. The responses were humorous and benign, thread faded right out of the mainstream in an instant. Threads you don't like would do the same if you and certain others ignored them. Male posters here seem to understand that not every generalization someone who may be hurting posts on a DATING forum is an opportunity to rail about the "tyranny and injustices of gender hatred." Taking issue with general behavior one experiences in the opposite sex is not "hatred." When it is falsely characterized as such, it takes away from people who experience real hatred in their lives and world. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Making sweeping generalizations about how heinous women are is NOT related to a guy coming here asking for advise about what he's going through. Like this thread, for example. Where is there a guy asking for advice about what he's going through? Really? Nowhere. The thread exists to trash women, and you are a main contributor. Does that make you feel a lot better? I make it a point to say that I am not talking about all women. I just want to ask are men allowed to express our views on relationships or are only women allowed to vent? It sure seems like some women around here want things to be one sided. It's like men are not allowed to be human. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I make it a point to say that I am not talking about all women. I just want to ask are men allowed to express our views on relationships or are only women allowed to vent? It sure seems like some women around here want things to be one sided. It's like men are not allowed to be human. Please see my previous post to you. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I admitted I was wrong. Do you want me to fly over there and kiss her feet? Of course not, but nice attempt, again, at deflection. I just think it's deeply sad that in the midst of an apology for saying something for which there was clearly no excuse, you still tried to excuse yourself with a "...but can you blame me?" Yes, I can and do, and I think that you should, too, without this endless equivocating. I've noticed that whenever you apologize for saying something truly crappy about someone of the female persuasion you immediately become what looks like embarrassed for apologizing - and then try to backtrack by suggesting that you were kind of reasonable to say it because women just make you so mad. It's like you think that a sincere, unequivocated apology would make you lose man-cred or something. But eh, whatever, this whole thread is infuriating and I really ought to stay away from it for my own sanity, so don't mind me. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I was mad about the fact that if the genders were reversed the women would be encouraging her to cheat but the two had nothing to do with each other and I was wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
Negative Nancy Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Not for me. In a way I like women that can go toe to toe with me intellectually. I will say it turns me on. I will also say I think the biggest problem is that its titled feminism. That title raises a lot of issues with men. I say for me my motto is I don't give a sh*t. I will keep doing what I do. IMO it should have been a universal movement to change traditional gender roles and a lot of the issues associated with it wouldn't be happening now. I look at myself I'm a nurse a traditional female job. Sometimes I get asked if I am gay because I'm a single male that is 29. i selectively not say that I'm making up for lost time due to my starting late at dating because its no one's business. I know if I was in a relationship a woman that made more money than me wouldnt intimidate me because I am secure in my masculinity enough to know what I bring to the relationship and my role. I don't mind paying for the date because I essentially invited the woman so its my job to show her a good time. Whether or not I have sex doesnt matter because I had a great time with someone and I could have done the same thing by myself if it was like going to a movie. The problem is some guys use feminism as an excuse to be cheap. Feminism doesn't make me less of a man. I would be an unapologetic man whether or not feminism existed. This whole back and forth about misandry this or misogyny that is stupid. These guys have been hurt by women so their mind is focused on finding misandry and honestly there are some things in regards to men in the media I don't like. Women there are things about the world that are misogynistic. Each of you have evidence to prove your points. I think now is the time to look at things from the other side because all you are doing now is just arguing and talking to someone until you are blue in the face and generalizing about both sides. If you don't like what he/she says ignore it because all you are doing is adding fuel to a fire. I gotta say you have a great, balanced attitude towards the whole subject and I agree with what you said. Both men and women are hurt by the gender division but we only get to see it from our perspective. That's why I like discussing stuff from here with my bf sometimes cos I tend to get so wrapped up in my own issues that it gives me the much needed other perspective. And it's true, in general men are not better off than woman, misandry is just as real as misogyny. Just looking at some stupid comedy shows where the man is portrayed as the stupid, clumsy chump that can't do anything right without a woman proves that point. So like you said, "each of us have evidence to prove our points and now is the time to look at things from the other side". Again, good posting. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I gotta say you have a great, balanced attitude towards the whole subject and I agree with what you said. Both men and women are hurt by the gender division but we only get to see it from our perspective. That's why I like discussing stuff from here with my bf sometimes cos I tend to get so wrapped up in my own issues that it gives me the much needed other perspective. And it's true, in general men are not better off than woman, misandry is just as real as misogyny. Just looking at some stupid comedy shows where the man is portrayed as the stupid, clumsy chump that can't do anything right without a woman proves that point. So like you said, "each of us have evidence to prove our points and now is the time to look at things from the other side". Again, good posting. Thank you for actually seeing it from both sides. In reality the gender war doesn't produce any winners and the casualties keep piling up. Is anybody from either side actually happy with all the hatred and bitterness in the current enviroment? Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) And it's true, in general men are not better off than woman, misandry is just as real as misogyny. Just looking at some stupid comedy shows where the man is portrayed as the stupid, clumsy chump that can't do anything right without a woman proves that point. This is a bit of a standard male complaint expressed on the internet, Nancy. If I wanted to get a quick and easy pat on the back from the boys it would be the one I'd dredge up...pretty much using the discourse you've used there. The point of sitcoms, as far as I can see, is that they create and perpetuate unthreatening stereotypes so tha families can sit down and laugh together at them. Dumb dad, ranting old man, idiot blonde, nosy female neighbour, spoilt cow, fat harridan with a heart of gold....there's an endless parade of characters that mock human beings for the entertainment of human beings. Are people seriously suggesting that these characters are created out of hate, or to promote hate...or to feed the viewer's desire to hate? A mainstream family sitcom is always going to contain characters that generally have a cuddly, unthreatening quality - which in many cases involves making them a bit dumb and silly. When I was a kid, the prospect of dad coming home was often a frightening one because he had a terrible temper and you often had to walk on eggshells around him. Sitcoms like the one you're mentioning, containing a dad who was a good natured lump, were a blessing. My father, who knew he had a temper but didn't like to face up to the fact that his own kids were afraid of him, loved to chuckle away at this depiction of a put-upon, unthreatening, silly dad. We could laugh along with him, and pretend for a while that life (and dad) really was always like that. Funny and unthreatening. Believe it or not, sometimes silly, caricature containing comedies serve a valid purpose in helping to reduce very real tensions. The biggest criticism I'd have of them is that they're lame and cliched. Nowadays people tend to look for something a bit more edgy and fresh in their comedy. If I wanted to present an example of misandry that I think actually matters, and is important, I would be thinking more of issues like violence against men in the street. As a woman, you might not feel safe walking home at night (and of course it's always best not to if possible), but a man is probably less safe than you are. Statistically a man's more likely to be the victim of violence from other men in that situation. Things like that are far more important than some silly sitcom stereotype. Edited November 10, 2011 by Taramere Link to post Share on other sites
Negative Nancy Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) good points, tara, but first off my example was merely intended to be just one of many examples. and i never used it for the purpose of getting "pats on the back" from the male gender because if you read my blunt postings here you will find that i am not really too concerned with earning brownie points or getting any pats. that's not my MO here, i post here in an attempt to resolve my own issues with men and joystickd's posting was just really refreshing to read as it shed light on both sides in a manner that actually got through to me, so I simply acknowledged that. secondly, men may have to fear more violence in the streets, but women have to fear more rape in the streets. so no gender is "better off". and i don't think sitcom characters are created out of "hate", but they are created for whatever stereotype sells best and makes the most profit. it obviously is a reflection of society then if these dumb clumsy stereotypes fly so well with the general public, so yeah, it may not have been the main intent to promote hate, but it certainly doesn't promote the overcoming of gender gaps either. kinda like porn, y'know? (and we've come back to full circle again...) Edited November 10, 2011 by Negative Nancy Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 good points, tara, but first off my example was merely intended to be just one of many examples. secondly, men may have to fear more violence in the streets, but women have to fear more rape in the streets. so no gender is "better off". Yes, I know. This whole "men in sitcoms...dumb dad...it's such an insult...the degradation to men..." thing seems to often come up, and it reminds me of my childhood when there were always people complaining about bits and pieces of political incorrectness in comedy. Behold, the worm that turned I'm sure back then it caused anger amongst militant feminists. Now it would probably be Men's Rights Activists who would complain. Growing up, I always got the Dumb Blonde jokes. I don't know if the men who get annoyed about Dumb Dad in the Sitcoms (I always wonder if they have a particular sitcom in mind. What's the name of the worse offending sitcom?) would feel equally outraged about depictions of blonde women being stupid. I kind of doubt it, but you never know. For me, it's just one of these things that you roll your eyes about in a fairly good-natured way and shrug off. Harmless, cliched teasing. Not really funny, when you've heard it 1000 times before, but rarely (if ever) ill intended. Link to post Share on other sites
betterdeal Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Growing up, I always got the Dumb Blonde jokes. As a blonde, that must quite an achievement! (dives for cover) Link to post Share on other sites
Negative Nancy Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) maybe dumb dad sitcoms can be put in the same category as dumb blonde jokes, and these two undoubtedly are the lesser of the evil when it comes to rape and murder, but nevertheless the point of joystickd and others in this thread was that it's indeed not just women that have to face gender mockings and put downs, in whichever manner small or big, and that is true. and it always starts at some point. so by shrugging off a little thing one gives leeway to bigger things eventually. who are we to judge what is little and what is a big issue anyway. to some a sitcom with a dumb dad may be harmless and they shrug it off and laugh it off - to a father who's actually out there in the real world experiencing that kind of treatment by his wife, that sitcom might feel not so harmless anymore. kinda like some women and men shrug off porn, but to a woman that has experienced sexual violence a gonzo porn is not so funny. and so on and so forth. we all perceive and interpret the world in light of our own experiences, so what's small to one might be big to another. hence some posters, myself included, would be better off not to justify the things done to the other gender, no matter how "trivial", by saying "but it's been done to our gender as well". I'm learning to get to that stage, mainly by currently being in a good relationship that's gradually building my trust back up, but i still have a long way to go which is obvious by some of my postings on here. but what else is life worth living for if not for growth and development. Edited November 10, 2011 by Negative Nancy Link to post Share on other sites
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