Why Do Men Keep Falling for Women's Manipulative Shaming Tactics?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Hmm... the resident whiners complain about being called 'whiners'...

 

We ladies are supposed to be ok being called 'cum dumpsters' and the like. I don't see you so-called gentlemen stepping in to defend our 'honor'. Not like I need it. But still. You really don't have a whole lot to stand on with all your macho hoo ha.

 

I have to say, "cum dumpster" is like the most vile thing you can call a woman. I've heard this word more and more and I don't understand where it comes from. It's awful though. And when I've seen it used on this site, I've never heard one man step up to the plate to talk to the man (because that's usually who seems to use the word) who used it.

[Metis]

You lost me as soon as you mentioned women doing the majority of the housework or the child-rearing. There was a very popular article in Time magazine that came out not too long ago which cited numerous studies that found that there is no more gender disparity when it comes to that sort of thing. The burden of housework is pretty much 50/50 between men and women now. If you're talking about 30 or 40 years ago, you're correct.

I read that article as well and I also heard the crickets when I waited for a response from feminists. I imagine that in some cases a man do 100% of the domestic work and yet we will still somehow not be doing our fair share.

 

You guys got a link to that article in Time magazine? The only reason I'm asking is that I've read about recent studies which reached completely different results.

 

For example, a year-long study performed in 2002 demonstrated that wives in the United States do approximately 70% of housework, while men self-report doing around 37%. (See, http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-28-housework_N.htm) Note that the results were similar across all Western countries. (Notably, Italy is absent. I recently read in an article about Sylvio Berlusconi, published in the New Yorker, that studies show that approximately 95% of Italian men have never done laundry. Ever.) Also notable is the fact that while cohabiting men do more housework than married men and cohabiting women less housework than married women, cohabiting women still do more housework than cohabiting men.

 

Another study, carried out by the University of Michigan in 2005 shows that after marriage, the amount of housework that a woman does increases by a whopping 7 hours a week on average. A man's decreases by one hour. (See, http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=111458)

 

Yet another study, on unpaid work, demonstrates that women spend between two and four times as much time caring for their children as men. (See, http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/women-lead-in-unpaid-work/)

 

So once again, I repeat: women should spend as much as men on dating; men should sacrifice as much as women for family.

[TheBigQuestion]

Hmm... the resident whiners complain about being called 'whiners'...

 

We ladies are supposed to be ok being called 'cum dumpsters' and the like. I don't see you so-called gentlemen stepping in to defend our 'honor'. Not like I need it. But still. You really don't have a whole lot to stand on with all your macho hoo ha.

 

 

I don't think any male on this board who wasn't a troll has ever condoned calling a woman a cum-dumpster, with the exception of maybe The Fourth Planet above (I don't know if he actually did, but he certainly would be one to say something like that). Bringing something like that up merely serves as a distraction to the substantive discussion that is going on right now. Or at least, the substantive discussion that I wish was going on.

[ThsAmericanLife]

You lost me as soon as you mentioned women doing the majority of the housework or the child-rearing. There was a very popular article in Time magazine that came out not too long ago which cited numerous studies that found that there is no more gender disparity when it comes to that sort of thing. The burden of housework is pretty much 50/50 between men and women now. If you're talking about 30 or 40 years ago, you're correct.

 

Also, this whole idea that women are constantly putting their careers on the backburner for the sake of raising children is a bit outdated. In fact, one of the main messages of pop-feminism is that a real woman can do pretty much whatever they want and they can do it all. Women have been striving for this for years. You discount the fact that there are an ever-increasing amount of stay-at-home dads. Likewise, you discount the fact that there are many, many career women who gladly put their careers on hold for the sake of rearing children. You act as if this is some sort of terrible thing that the world (or men, in particular) is imposing on them. Not true.

 

Either way, that was a tad off topic. The point is, there was absolutely no reason for anyone to have reacted the way they did to my thread about who pays for dates. Or rather, the reasons they gave for reacting they way they did were completely disingenuous. I can respect your position a lot more than anyone who posted in that thread because you at the very least realize what I've always known to be true but which no LS lady wanted to admit: you don't want to lose your free meal and nothing more.

 

Do us a favor... dig up that Time article.

 

Also... I (and many other women here) find it hilarious that so many men hinge so many arguments on their 'free meal' BS.

 

The truth is... most of these same guys don't like women who want to pay their own way... and also don't like women who don't give what they think they deserve for their 'free meal' (ie. sex).

 

Just make up your mind what kind of woman you want.... the kind you can buy or the kind you can't.... and deal with the consequences. It's not all that difficult.

[TheBigQuestion]

And here's the link:

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2084582,00.html

[ThsAmericanLife]

I don't think any male on this board who wasn't a troll has ever condoned calling a woman a cum-dumpster

 

Sure they did...

 

with their silence.

[Woggle]

Do a google search on it. It came out sometimes last summer. I did all the housework in my first marriage plus she didn't work. I didn't force her to stay home but she would hold a job for about two weeks then do something to get herself fired. I would often come home to a completely trashed house after one of her benders that I would then clean up but god forbid I relaxed on a day off and I was being a lazy no good deadbeat. She could do enough drugs to kill an elephant but god forbid I have one drink and I was an alcoholic.

 

You guys think my attitude is just because I am some horrible male chauvinist but I have been through the feminist meat grinder where despite all of this I was the horrible ogre who oppressed his poor little wife. I forced her to do drugs and I forced her to cheat and god knows what else. It was raining that day and somehow it got blamed on me so that is why I am so quick to call out feminist bs that always wants to paint men as the bad guys who oppress these poor little women. Now you know why I am so passionate about this.

 

For the record I have never used the word cum dumpster and I don't condone anybody saying it.

[TheBigQuestion]

Do us a favor... dig up that Time article.

 

Also... I (and many other women here) find it hilarious that so many men hinge so many arguments on their 'free meal' BS.

 

The truth is... most of these same guys don't like women who want to pay their own way... and also don't like women who don't give what they think they deserve for their 'free meal' (ie. sex).

 

Just make up your mind what kind of woman you want.... the kind you can buy or the kind you can't.... and deal with the consequences. It's not all that difficult.

 

I'm fine with a woman paying her own way. I'm fine with spoiling my significant other rotten if I see fit, once she actually gets to the point of being my significant other (that's pretty much how my relationship is going right now anyway). The only thing I've ever advocated is that men should not feel pressured to pay for early dates because (1) it isn't necessary, even with women who are used to being paid for, (2) it's unfair to men, and (3) the whole custom is condescendingly patriarchal.

 

The fact that you are coming off as combative as you are certainly gives away what your position is on this.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Do a google search on it. It came out sometimes last summer. I did all the housework in my first marriage plus she didn't work. I didn't force her to stay home but she would hold a job for about two weeks then do something to get herself fired. I would often come home to a completely trashed house after one of her benders that I would then clean up but god forbid I relaxed on a day off and I was being a lazy no good deadbeat. She could do enough drugs to kill an elephant but god forbid I have one drink and I was an alcoholic.

 

You guys think my attitude is just because I am some horrible male chauvinist but I have been through the feminist meat grinder where despite all of this I was the horrible ogre who oppressed his poor little wife. I forced her to do drugs and I forced her to cheat and god knows what else. It was raining that day and somehow it got blamed on me so that is why I am so quick to call out feminist bs that always wants to paint men as the bad guys who oppress these poor little women. Now you know why I am so passionate about this.

 

For the record I have never used the word cum dumpster and I don't condone anybody saying it.

 

Our problem has and always been that you take the negative experience you had with one (or a few) women and extrapolate that to the whole gender.

 

I have to ask you... how does this help you to think this way?? Does it improve your marriage? Does it make you feel happy? Does it give you closure on some past bad events?

 

I'm having a very tough time understanding your need to obsess on those things from the past...

[Woggle]

Our problem has and always been that you take the negative experience you had with one (or a few) women and extrapolate that to the whole gender.

 

I have to ask you... how does this help you to think this way?? Does it improve your marriage? Does it make you feel happy? Does it give you closure on some past bad events?

 

I'm having a very tough time understanding your need to obsess on those things from the past...

 

It pisses me off because I constantly hear how men are bad and women are innocent victims yet I lived the opposite and so did my father and so have other men I have known.

[Metis]

Do a google search on it. It came out sometimes last summer.

 

I did. The only Times article I was able to find acknowledges the opposite of what you claim -- that women do more housework and more childcare then men. But then it launches into anecdotal experiences meant to demonstrate that it doesn't matter. If you have some other article in mind, please come up with a link. If you make a claim, you have the responsibility to substantiate it. I provided links to substantiate my claims and didn't send you to google for proof of what I was saying.

 

I did all the housework in my first marriage plus she didn't work. I didn't force her to stay home but she would hold a job for about two weeks then do something to get herself fired. I would often come home to a completely trashed house after one of her benders that I would then clean up but god forbid I relaxed on a day off and I was being a lazy no good deadbeat. She could do enough drugs to kill an elephant but god forbid I have one drink and I was an alcoholic.

As statistics show, your experience is not representative of the general trend.

 

You guys think my attitude is just because I am some horrible male chauvinist but I have been through the feminist meat grinder where despite all of this I was the horrible ogre who oppressed his poor little wife. I forced her to do drugs and I forced her to cheat and god knows what else. It was raining that day and somehow it got blamed on me so that is why I am so quick to call out feminist bs that always wants to paint men as the bad guys who oppress these poor little women. Now you know why I am so passionate about this.

And there are women who have to deal with abusive husbands. You are not unique, and you are not special. If having had an abusive husband doesn't justify a woman hating men, you having been married to an abusive wife doesn't justify you hating women.

[Woggle]

I try not to be so negative towards women but how am I supposed to react to the constant misandry? It just wears me down sometimes.

[Metis]

And here's the link:

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2084582,00.html

 

Okay, I've read the article. First off, while it states that the amounts of chores men and women are doing are converging and "closer than ever", at no point does the article state it's at 50-50, as you previously claimed. Look, maybe I missed something, so feel free to point out the error, but it sounds more like the inevitable amplification: the article states there is less inequality than 50 years ago, and it gets interpreted as there being no inequality at all.

 

Moreover, while the article is titled "Chore Wars", it actually concentrates on child care, so it's not inconsistent with the study I cited, to the effect that the time women spend doing housework increases dramatically after marriage while men's decreases.

 

There is also an attempt to state that longer hours spent doing paid work outside the home "offset" the hours not spent doing housework, which, of course, ignores the fact that working outside the home for pay entails immense and long-term personal rewards that doing chores does not. And the article mentions later that working women are now working longer hours as well, so it's a general labor trend, rather than a gender trend.

 

Bottom line, the disparity still stands.

[Metis]

I try not to be so negative towards women but how am I supposed to react to the constant misandry? It just wears me down sometimes.

Most of this misandry that bothers you so much comes from a misogynist echo-chamber. Stop imagining monster where there aren't any, and use your rational mind more.

[joystickd]

WTF! Misandry and misogyny. I think no one on here hates the opposite gender to that degree. I will say if a man keeps falling for the manipulation its their own fault.

[verhrzn]

And here's the link:

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2084582,00.html

 

Odd... when I googled "Division of Labor" into Google Scholar (sue me, I don't access to academic search engines now that I'm not a university student) most of the articles I found directly contradict the Times article.

 

In fact, most of the scholarly articles (read: researched and peer reviewed in periodicals deemed "academic"... I deliberately stayed away from opinion pieces on news site like Jezebel or Broadsheet) take it as a given that household chores and childcare are still unevenly divided.

 

http://www.aaup.org/AAUP/pubsres/academe/2010/JF/feat/schie.htm

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l7681506153q72j1/

 

However, in the papers I've come across in my own research (mix of sociology and anthropology) there DOES seem to be a higher correlation of equality in household chores/childcare among couples who expressed egalitarian beliefs. Several studies have confirmed that the happiest and longest lasting marriages are ones where both the husband and wife... are feminists.

 

Now, MAYBE this research suggests that the reason these men are happy is because they've had their manhood sliced off, and been brainwashed to do everything their wife wants. Logic however, suggests that maybe feminism can actually be beneficial for men.

 

I see a lot of guys on here that are deeply concerned with the concept of masculinity. Heck, this thread is even about that. "Real men." Masculinity is a box... a cage. It's a strictly enforced and defined space that a man MUST be in to be accepted as a "man."

 

But feminism (the actual ideology, not the scare word that gets thrown around by people who haven't actually studied the literature) is all about tearing down gender roles. Feminism wants to get RID of these boxes... "A real woman is this," "A real man is that." When we stop confining people to stereotypes, when we embrace the idea of equality, we can finally be who we actually are... individuals that are made up of traits that are both culturally masculine AND feminine.

 

I personally believe any one who spouts off "A real man pays for dinner" and then calls themselves a feminist has missed the point. If they want to say "It's my preference to have a man pay," well.... all right, that's your preference, have at 'em. But your preference does not decide what an entire group of people should be labeled as.

 

Do I think some women can shame men with these sayings? Yes, I do. But I think it's counterintuitive to blame feminism for it. My educated guess would be that the exact same women who says those sorts of things are the same ones who are trapped in their own gendered box, bitter and insisting they take all of us down with em. Because the less people subscribe to traditional gender roles, the more ridiculous their "rules" (men must pay, women must be dainty flowers) looks, and no one wants to face the idea that their ideology is built on sand.

[dasein]

Bottom line, the disparity still stands.

 

No it doesn't, never did actually. If in fact women do more housework than men, it's because it is part of the division of the labor that the couple has chosen among themselves. If there is an imbalance in the division of labor either way in a particular household, or 10 or 100, it is for the couple in question to work out. What it most certainly isn't is anything that men are imposing on women socially or culturally. It isn't a "rally opportunity moment." And further:

 

The wage gap is a lie.

The glass ceiling is a lie.

The "patriarchy" is a lie.

Historical oppression of women by men? another lie.

Double standards in judging men and women for similar sexual behavior? Lie.

Men imposing housework or childbearing on women? Lie.

 

I think that about covers it.

 

Now back to the thread topic, anyone have anything to add about "shaming?"

[TheBigQuestion]

Okay, I've read the article. First off, while it states that the amounts of chores men and women are doing are converging and "closer than ever", at no point does the article state it's at 50-50, as you previously claimed. Look, maybe I missed something, so feel free to point out the error, but it sounds more like the inevitable amplification: the article states there is less inequality than 50 years ago, and it gets interpreted as there being no inequality at all.

 

Moreover, while the article is titled "Chore Wars", it actually concentrates on child care, so it's not inconsistent with the study I cited, to the effect that the time women spend doing housework increases dramatically after marriage while men's decreases.

 

There is also an attempt to state that longer hours spent doing paid work outside the home "offset" the hours not spent doing housework, which, of course, ignores the fact that working outside the home for pay entails immense and long-term personal rewards that doing chores does not. And the article mentions later that working women are now working longer hours as well, so it's a general labor trend, rather than a gender trend.

 

Bottom line, the disparity still stands.

 

The article cites numerous figures relating to both household chores AND child-rearing, and the differences in time spent per day for each gender vary by mere minutes.

 

Not every aspect of every job is rewarding. Many jobs are hardly rewarding at all. A lot of administrative tasks involved in your typical white collar occupation are no more rewarding than washing dishes or vacuuming. The point of the article is that people regardless of gender are pretty much equally SWAMPED. Men and women are under more pressure to spend more time with their children AND to put in more hours at the office. Men do not get the luxury of relaxed expectations in the workplace upon having a child, as the article explained.

 

Your argument still comes down to thinking that men have it easier. They don't. We're equally f**ked.

[ThsAmericanLife]

It pisses me off because I constantly hear how men are bad and women are innocent victims yet I lived the opposite and so did my father and so have other men I have known.

 

I could tell you a much different story about my own life... but won't... because you are very much wed to your own hurt and pain...

 

as if you are the only person on the planet who has ever suffered....

[Woggle]

There is no way you can convince the majority of men that feminism is our ally. We know better.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Men do not get the luxury of relaxed expectations in the workplace upon having a child, as the article explained.

 

Compared to childless employees... yes they do.

 

When little johnny or susie gets sick... then Mr or Ms Mom gets carte blanche to head home to tend to said child... while their co-workers are supposed to pick up the slack.

 

There was a period where I occasionally (maybe once or twice a year... MAX) was called upon to act as a representative for the community organization I led... that required I do so between 8-5 or normal working hours.

 

I was 'guilted' big time about shirking my work duties by one or two men who had no problems begging out of work when their kid was sick. I blithely responded that my community work WAS like my 'kid' and that they didn't have much room to complain given their hours off for parenting.

[ThsAmericanLife]

We know better.

 

Famous last words...

[Woggle]

Famous last words...

 

I do at least. Hardcore feminist is no friend of mine.

[ThsAmericanLife]

The fact that you are coming off as combative as you are certainly gives away what your position is on this.

 

Please tell me what that position is... I can see you don't know me all that well. Most of the regular posters here know exactly where I stand..

 

So yes... please do look into your crystal ball and tell me where I stand.

 

(although, you could always 'cheat' and look at my previous posts).

 

If you'd prefer to stand on your preconceived notions... you'll find them surprisingly lacking.

[ThsAmericanLife]

I do at least. Hardcore feminist is no friend of mine.

 

most women are hardcore feminists to you. that makes life very convenient for you, I'm sure.

 

Not very happy, but convenient...

 

It's your life though... be as miserable as you like.