Spinoff: "Real women..."

[musemaj11]

It doesn't cost anything so why would they do that? It's only an application you have to make. Or do you think it would be right for a man to give up so easily on his children he is supposed to care so much about?

May I see the study?

[musemaj11]

Many men seek out 'traditional' women so they don't have to be responsible for anything other than a paycheck... They kinda like treating women as pets. As long as they come home occasionally, and provide pet 'food', all should be A-OK with their wives.

Actually many women also love such arrangement. They only see men as workhorses whose function is to feed, shelter, and clothe them and their children.

 

A study in Australia shows that women are happier when their husbands are at work.

[Emilia]

May I see the study?

 

Report of the Florida Supreme Court Gender Bias Study Commission Executive Summary (March 1990) http://www.flcourts.org/sct/sctdocs/bin/bias.pdf

Noting that "Many men file proceedings to contest custody as a way of forcing an advantageous property settlement. . . . Contrary to public perception, men are quite successful in obtaining residential custody of their children when they actually seek it." (p. 7)

[Emilia]

Report of the Florida Supreme Court Gender Bias Study Commission Executive Summary (March 1990) http://www.flcourts.org/sct/sctdocs/bin/bias.pdf

Noting that "Many men file proceedings to contest custody as a way of forcing an advantageous property settlement. . . . Contrary to public perception, men are quite successful in obtaining residential custody of their children when they actually seek it." (p. 7)

 

Gender Bias Study of the Court System in Massachusetts, 24 New Eng. L. Rev. 745, 747, 825, 846 (1990).

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm

Massachusetts was one of the first states to document the gender bias against women in family courts. This court-initiated study expressly found that "our research contradicted [the] perception" that "there is a bias in favor of women in these decisions." Moreover, it found that "in determining custody and visitation, many judges and family service officers do not consider violence toward women relevant." The Court's study further found that "the courts are demanding more of mothers than fathers in custody disputes" and that "many courts put the needs of noncustodial fathers above those of custodial mothers and children."

 

 

etc etc. there are more when this came from

[Mme. Chaucer]

Usually they are the kind that bail when things are less than 100% perfect 100% of the time.

 

Many men find that a traditional wife is the lesser of two evils. It's very hard to find a woman that is the best of both worlds.

 

BULL.

 

"Usually," marriages fail due to contributions from both the husband AND the wife. Not because the wife is a devil. (Or the husband, for that matter, but that is not a position we see trotted out here multiple times per day. We just get devilwoman totted out over and over again - and by you, Woggle, most of all.)

 

Yes, even if the divorce was initiated by the wife, it was most likely a joint effort to get to that place.

 

If you, or any guy, choose your wife because she is "the lesser of two evils," you really are foolish and destructive if you get married at all. And if the "lesser of two evils" realizes that's how you view her and feels terrible about it, and ultimately files for divorce ….

 

YAY! You can BLAME her for being a "walkaway wife" or whatever other label you'd like to hang on her that day.

 

When really, you set your own marriage up for failure from the gate. Put your wife in an untenable position. But still get to play the oh, so satisfying "victim card."

 

Well played.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Actually many women also love such arrangement. They only see men as workhorses whose function is to feed, shelter, and clothe them and their children.

 

A study in Australia shows that women are happier when their husbands are at work.

 

Hey, whatever floats their boat. I see it as a win-win for both as long as their expectations are in line.

 

The problem arises when men who offer little more than a paycheck complain they aren't getting their other needs met.... and complain when the only women who want them are primarily looking for financial support.

 

...or women who have nothing to offer besides, perhaps, child-bearing ability and good looks who seek out men who financially support them complain when their other needs aren't met.

 

Just another example of people not understanding their own expectations and how those play out in relationships...

[Untouchable_Fire]

Real women have human DNA and only X chromosomes.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Hey, whatever floats their boat. I see it as a win-win for both as long as their expectations are in line.

The problem arises when men who offer little more than a paycheck complain they aren't getting their other needs met.... and complain when the only women who want them are primarily looking for financial support.

...or women who have nothing to offer besides, perhaps, child-bearing ability and good looks who seek out men who financially support them complain when their other needs aren't met.

Just another example of people not understanding their own expectations and how those play out in relationships...

 

When your starving the only thing you think about and search for is food. Once you get food then you can start thinking of your other needs... this is just how we work.

[Emilia]

When your starving the only thing you think about and search for is food. Once you get food then you can start thinking of your other needs... this is just how we work.

 

It's only true to a certain extent, especially when you are talking about relationships which are way down the list when it comes to basic survival.

[Woggle]

I don't consider any woman with her own needs to be a militant feminist. Everybody has needs both men and women but there are some women who have to make every single thing into some struggle. You say good morning to her and it can start an argument.

 

I consider my marriage to be an equal relationship and to me that is the ideal but it is very hard to find a woman who can have that plus not be a manhater who feels the need to be is difficult as possible for no good reason at all. A woman like my wife is very much a rare thing. When you start looking outside of traditional minded women you usually get hardcore feminists. I am sorry but it is true. No man wants to fight the gender war at home.

 

Just because a couple has a traditional set up does not mean that the man only sees his wife as a maid or she sees him as simply a paycheck. It could just mean that she likes being feminine and he likes being masculine. They could still be fully equal partners but play different roles.

 

I do not see my wife as the lesser of two evils because I am one of the lucky few who has the total package but if you give a man the choice between being the main provider and constantly fighting the gender war in his marriage the great majority will pick the former and I do not blame them one bit.

[azsinglegal]

Real women have a vagina. It's one their born with - not one that's made out of a penis.

[Metis]

I don't consider any woman with her own needs to be a militant feminist. Everybody has needs both men and women but there are some women who have to make every single thing into some struggle. You say good morning to her and it can start an argument.

There are plenty of men who do the same. I guess that makes them "hardcore misogynists"?

 

I consider my marriage to be an equal relationship and to me that is the ideal but it is very hard to find a woman who can have that plus not be a manhater who feels the need to be is difficult as possible for no good reason at all. A woman like my wife is very much a rare thing. When you start looking outside of traditional minded women you usually get hardcore feminists. I am sorry but it is true. No man wants to fight the gender war at home.

I grew up among "traditional-minded women", then became a feminist. In my experience, no one hates men more than "traditional-minded women". The way they talk about men when men aren't around will make your ears wilt. And they are masters of dissimulation, saying one thing while doing another, with deep resentment simmering just below the proper Stepford surface.

 

Just because a couple has a traditional set up does not mean that the man only sees his wife as a maid or she sees him as simply a paycheck. It could just mean that she likes being feminine and he likes being masculine. They could still be fully equal partners but play different roles.

 

"Feminine" and "masculine" are very vague concepts. But when a traditionalist invokes them, I suppose then mean exactly what I said in my initial list -- the woman does her level best to pretend being stupid, incompetent and ignorant, but only up to the point where it would inconvenience her husband. That makes her "feminine". After thoroughly degrading herself in this manner, she goes ahead and takes care of things competently, because despite being "feminine", she's an "equal".

 

I do not see my wife as the lesser of two evils because I am one of the lucky few who has the total package but if you give a man the choice between being the main provider and constantly fighting the gender war in his marriage the great majority will pick the former and I do not blame them one bit.

Of course -- lots of men are controlling and prefer to have total power over the family's finances rather than not. Nothing surprising about that.

[Woggle]

Yes men who treat their wives like that are misogynists so doesn't it make sense that women who do the same are misandrists?

 

Men don't take this attitude because they want control. In fact many men wish they could find a truly equal relationship and not the constant gender war that you see in many homes today. For many women as soon as you start treating too much like an equal they start to look at you as a brother more than a lover. If you don't believe me just look at this forum.

 

I never said anything about a woman acting stupid either. The ability to actually get along with a person and make a relationship work is actually a sign of high emotional intelligence which sadly some women these days sorely lack.

[xxoo]

Who are these women and men who fit neatly into categories?

 

It's like phillyfan said--don't make it so complicated. Just treat each other right.

 

No matter who is earning more, or cleaning more, or cooking more at the moment (marriage is a long time, and things change! Jobs are lost, illness and injuries happen....roles may need to be flexible over time)---each partner should try to lighten the other's load as much as possible. Each partner should try to make the other's day as enjoyable as possible.

 

The secret is finding that person, and BEING that person.

[Metis]

Men don't take this attitude because they want control. In fact many men wish they could find a truly equal relationship and not the constant gender war that you see in many homes today. For many women as soon as you start treating too much like an equal they start to look at you as a brother more than a lover. If you don't believe me just look at this forum.

 

I never said anything about a woman acting stupid either. The ability to actually get along with a person and make a relationship work is actually a sign of high emotional intelligence which sadly some women these days sorely lack.

 

In other words, when things don't work out for women, it's women's fault, and when things don't work out for men, it's also women's fault. Everything is women's fault. Nothing is ever men's fault.

[Woggle]

In other words, when things don't work out for women, it's women's fault, and when things don't work out for men, it's also women's fault. Everything is women's fault. Nothing is ever men's fault.

 

All we hear about is how everything is our fault so why not start hearing the other side?

[Metis]

All we hear about is how everything is our fault so why not start hearing the other side?

 

Does the other side want to be truthful, or not? IS everything women's fault, really? Are men always and without exception free from blame? Do men never act irrationally, selfishly, or cruelly? If you answer "yes" to these questions, then there is no sense in having any kind of discussion with you, and it's clear that you don't so much want to be "heard" as to engage in a shouting match.

 

For the record, what you "hear" is almost exclusively that other men who hate women claim women say. But you don't actually find many women making claims like that. In fact, it is my impression that women are far more critical of each other than men tend to be.

[thatone]

Who are these women and men who fit neatly into categories?

 

It's like phillyfan said--don't make it so complicated. Just treat each other right.

 

No matter who is earning more, or cleaning more, or cooking more at the moment (marriage is a long time, and things change! Jobs are lost, illness and injuries happen....roles may need to be flexible over time)---each partner should try to lighten the other's load as much as possible. Each partner should try to make the other's day as enjoyable as possible.

 

The secret is finding that person, and BEING that person.

 

that's very easy to say while in a successful marriage/relationship .

 

the bottom line is, as woggle said people who are capable of simply treating others as they expect to be treated are very rare.

 

ask your single friends, they'll tell you the same thing.

[Woggle]

Does the other side want to be truthful, or not? IS everything women's fault, really? Are men always and without exception free from blame? Do men never act irrationally, selfishly, or cruelly? If you answer "yes" to these questions, then there is no sense in having any kind of discussion with you, and it's clear that you don't so much want to be "heard" as to engage in a shouting match.

 

For the record, what you "hear" is almost exclusively that other men who hate women claim women say. But you don't actually find many women making claims like that. In fact, it is my impression that women are far more critical of each other than men tend to be.

 

I am not saying everything is women's fault but we have men's faults covered already and talked about endlessly. The other side is barely talked about at all in mainstream culture.

[Metis]

I am not saying everything is women's fault but we have men's faults covered already and talked about endlessly. The other side is barely talked about at all in mainstream culture.

 

I think quite the opposite -- much of mainstream culture concentrates on women's flaws and what women supposedly owe men. Even those parts of culture that supposedly portray men as bumbling idiots still carry the message that while men are allowed to fail in a variety of ways, women must always be perfect and exist only FOR men, never for themselves.

 

And on this board -- posts criticizing women far outnumber those criticizing men.

[Woggle]

I think quite the opposite -- much of mainstream culture concentrates on women's flaws and what women supposedly owe men. Even those parts of culture that supposedly portray men as bumbling idiots still carry the message that while men are allowed to fail in a variety of ways, women must always be perfect and exist only FOR men, never for themselves.

 

And on this board -- posts criticizing women far outnumber those criticizing men.

 

Where do you get this from? It's pretty much an endless parade of women=victim and men=victimizer out there. It seems that every other week there is some End of men article designed to make men feel like crap because this economy has hit them extra hard.

[Metis]

Where do you get this from? It's pretty much an endless parade of women=victim and men=victimizer out there.

 

Let's think about that one for a moment. A victim is someone who gets acted upon. A victimizer is someone who acts. So what we have here, at least when it comes to fiction, is rank objectification. In most movies, books, and shows, a woman's role is to get ****ed, or raped, or murdered -- whatever, something that gives male characters the motivation to act and lead interesting, adventurous lives. And that's not just modern culture; it's the way Western culture has been since deep antiquity. These are not portrayals that are actually flattering to women, nor do they provide women with healthy role models.

 

Incidentally, have you heard of the Bechdel Test?

 

As for non-fiction, I'm sure having to hear about yet another serial rapist raping a woman sucks ass, but it's the simple truth that most sexual predators and most murderers are men. Sorry. If there are female sexual predators and female murderers, I am all for reporting on them, and I think the media does that with a great deal of fascination. But I don't think that something that's newsworthy and merits the public's attention -- such as, say, the presence of a serial rapist in the community -- should be swept under the rug just because you feel it offends your tender sensibilities as a man.

 

It seems that every other week there is some End of men article designed to make men feel like crap because this economy has hit them extra hard.

If the economy has hit men extra hard, I don't think there is anything an article can do to make it worse. And despite the economic hardship, it is well-known that women STILL make less than men in almost every category for the same quality and amount of work. So for us, it's a PERPETUAL recession.

[Queen Zenobia]

If the economy has hit men extra hard, I don't think there is anything an article can do to make it worse. And despite the economic hardship, it is well-known that women STILL make less than men in almost every category for the same quality and amount of work. So for us, it's a PERPETUAL recession.

 

This is true, but is very much exaggerated. When you take into account full time vs part time work, career investment, fields of study, and type of work, women make 98 cents on the dollar compared to men. So, not quite equal, but not really THAT bad.

[Metis]

This is true, but is very much exaggerated. When you take into account full time vs part time work, career investment, fields of study, and type of work, women make 98 cents on the dollar compared to men. So, not quite equal, but not really THAT bad.

Yes, but you should take into account that the reason women work more part-time jobs and invest less time in careers than men is that women are under tremendous cultural and social pressures to sacrifice work and career to take care of children or even just to take care of their husbands. Men do not experience that pressure. If more men did their fair share of sacrificing career for family, the gap would get narrower.

[Woggle]

Actually women are leaving men in the dust when it comes to education these days. They outnumber men in college and do better in school. Plus most of the jobs that have been outsourced are traditionally male jobs.