NXS Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Yes, but you should take into account that the reason women work more part-time jobs and invest less time in careers than men is that women are under tremendous cultural and social pressures to sacrifice work and career to take care of children or even just to take care of their husbands. Men do not experience that pressure. If more men did their fair share of sacrificing career for family, the gap would get narrower. You're just repeating the same tired old feminist rhetoric ad nauseum. When a woman makes a decisions it's because of "social pressure" i.e. men. When men make a decision it's because of selfishness/power/patriarchy blah blah blah. On and on it goes. How do you know women don't choose part-time jobs because they want to do that? That it's a lifestyle choice? No that couldn't possibly be the answer, there has to conspiracy by the "patriarchy" holding women back.
NXS Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 I think quite the opposite -- much of mainstream culture concentrates on women's flaws and what women supposedly owe men. Even those parts of culture that supposedly portray men as bumbling idiots still carry the message that while men are allowed to fail in a variety of ways, women must always be perfect and exist only FOR men, never for themselves. And on this board -- posts criticizing women far outnumber those criticizing men. Men don't exist in the news unless they commit some heinous crime. If 10 men are blown up in say Iraq the news is reported as 10 soldiers, never 10 men. If 1 of them is female then report will always say "including 1 female". If a man rescues a family from a burning house then it's reported as a "firefighter" or whatever his job is. If it's a woman then it's always reported as a female <insert job>. If a man commits a crime then it's always reported as a male, if a female commits a crime then it's not always reported as such. If you don't believe me then just start listening to news reports and see the blatant discrimination.
NXS Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 If the economy has hit men extra hard, I don't think there is anything an article can do to make it worse. And despite the economic hardship, it is well-known that women STILL make less than men in almost every category for the same quality and amount of work. So for us, it's a PERPETUAL recession. There's almost no difference in pay when all factors are taken into consideration, this myth has been completely disproven. There are plenty of valid reasons why men still make more money than women including: career choices, hours worked, dangerous/dirty work, willingness to travel etc. As for "perpetual recession", how come women have more spending power than men? Why are most advertisements geared towards women?
Metis Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 You're just repeating the same tired old feminist rhetoric ad nauseum. When a woman makes a decisions it's because of "social pressure" i.e. men. When men make a decision it's because of selfishness/power/patriarchy blah blah blah. On and on it goes. Both men and women make decisions at least in part due to social pressure. However, social pressures do not affect them the same way. Also, social pressure isn't just "men". How do you know women don't choose part-time jobs because they want to do that? That it's a lifestyle choice? How do you know the homeless man on the corner didn't choose to be homeless because he likes living on the street? That it's a lifestyle choice? I don't know, NXS, I don't claim that there isn't SOMEONE out there who likes being stabbed in the eyeballs. However, what we are talking about here is a woman working her ass off for 20 years in college and graduate school, building a career, spending sleepless nights studying and working ... then flushing it all down the toilet in order to have more time for washing poopy diapers, making steak and keeping the baby from being a nuisance to its father. The underlying rationale is that the husband's convenience, leisure and aspirations are infinitely more important than hers, and that her accomplishments, no matter how impressive and promising, have no value simply because she is a woman. Is undergoing this kind of rank degradation a "lifestyle choice"? Are there girls who just DREAM about throwing the fruit of many years' efforts away and becoming a cook and a maid? Perhaps. That's what Hollywood movies (made almost invariably by men) tell us, in all those stories about "high-powered" women whose awesome jobs keep them from having a "life". But it is counterintuitive, and it's contrary to my own experience and the experience of women I know. No that couldn't possibly be the answer, there has to conspiracy by the "patriarchy" holding women back.I'm not saying it's a "conspiracy", but pointing to social pressure is a less ridiculous explanation that the one that you suggest, that men freely pick career over family because you are all so damned virtuous and perfect. There's almost no difference in pay when all factors are taken into consideration, this myth has been completely disproven. There are plenty of valid reasons why men still make more money than women including: career choices, hours worked, dangerous/dirty work, willingness to travel etc. Once again -- men have more opportunities and enjoy greater community and family support for taking risks with their career, working longer hours, and doing jack **** at home. As for "perpetual recession", how come women have more spending power than men? Why are most advertisements geared towards women? I don't think that's a proven fact, nor am I familiar with the concept of people who have less money having more "spending power" than people with more money. As for advertisements being geared towards women, I got two words for you -- confirmation bias. You see an advertisement geared towards women and you react "ah-huh! Bitches spending men's hard-earned money on Murphy's Oil!" Here is what I see: advertisements for household cleaning products are geared towards women; advertisements for obscenely expensive cars are geared towards men.
Woggle Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Obscenely expensive handbags and shoes are also geared towards women. I am not saying every woman should choose it but there are women who genuinely do prefer being a stay at home mom and that is their right. I do think that stay at home moms deserve more respect and recognition though.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Plus most of the jobs that have been outsourced are traditionally male jobs. You can blame that on your fellow men, sweetheart. Women aren't the ones controlling any branches of government, and it is still vastly men (white ones) in corporate America who make those decisions.
thatone Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Yes, but you should take into account that the reason women work more part-time jobs and invest less time in careers than men is that women are under tremendous cultural and social pressures to sacrifice work and career to take care of children or even just to take care of their husbands. Men do not experience that pressure. If more men did their fair share of sacrificing career for family, the gap would get narrower. you were doing so well until that last sentence. if you don't want marriage and children then don't have them. that in no way reflects on men whatsoever. it is entirely your choice. and sorry, but women don't want men to sacrifice career for family. women who want children and marriage want men that can provide money for all of the things that marriage entails. so in summary, no, it is not the fault of men that women don't know what they want. but nice try.
xxoo Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Are there girls who just DREAM about throwing the fruit of many years' efforts away and becoming a cook and a maid? Perhaps. That's what Hollywood movies (made almost invariably by men) tell us, in all those stories about "high-powered" women whose awesome jobs keep them from having a "life". But it is counterintuitive, and it's contrary to my own experience and the experience of women I know. It is intuitive to me that a woman MAY want to take a year or two off after growing and birthing a baby to parent the babe fulltime, regardless of career. Not everyone can, but the the urge is common enough (although not ubiquitous by a longshot). It would have been painful for me to leave my nursing babies and go to work for 8+ hours (physically and emotionally painful). My husband (their father) didn't seem distressed at all to return to work two weeks after their births. He was ready (he is also a very involved dad....no complaints about him pulling his weight in that dept). I'm not alone. I know many women who chose to stay home, many who chose to work, and still others who felt forced to work or stay home against their own choices.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Both men and women make decisions at least in part due to social pressure. However, social pressures do not affect them the same way. Also, social pressure isn't just "men". How do you know the homeless man on the corner didn't choose to be homeless because he likes living on the street? That it's a lifestyle choice? I don't know, NXS, I don't claim that there isn't SOMEONE out there who likes being stabbed in the eyeballs. However, what we are talking about here is a woman working her ass off for 20 years in college and graduate school, building a career, spending sleepless nights studying and working ... then flushing it all down the toilet in order to have more time for washing poopy diapers, making steak and keeping the baby from being a nuisance to its father. The underlying rationale is that the husband's convenience, leisure and aspirations are infinitely more important than hers, and that her accomplishments, no matter how impressive and promising, have no value simply because she is a woman. Is undergoing this kind of rank degradation a "lifestyle choice"? Are there girls who just DREAM about throwing the fruit of many years' efforts away and becoming a cook and a maid? Perhaps. That's what Hollywood movies (made almost invariably by men) tell us, in all those stories about "high-powered" women whose awesome jobs keep them from having a "life". But it is counterintuitive, and it's contrary to my own experience and the experience of women I know. I'm not saying it's a "conspiracy", but pointing to social pressure is a less ridiculous explanation that the one that you suggest, that men freely pick career over family because you are all so damned virtuous and perfect. Once again -- men have more opportunities and enjoy greater community and family support for taking risks with their career, working longer hours, and doing jack **** at home. I don't think that's a proven fact, nor am I familiar with the concept of people who have less money having more "spending power" than people with more money. As for advertisements being geared towards women, I got two words for you -- confirmation bias. You see an advertisement geared towards women and you react "ah-huh! Bitches spending men's hard-earned money on Murphy's Oil!" Here is what I see: advertisements for household cleaning products are geared towards women; advertisements for obscenely expensive cars are geared towards men. Yep... that has been my experience as well... When I bought a Porsche years ago after my fiancee died... people immediately assumed I made a windfall from some inheritance... which couldn't be farther from the truth. The only thing I kept from our 5 years together was a signed photograph we bought together... and a paper weight he bought on our last trip to France. The real truth (for anyone who cared to listen) was that I'd always wanted a convertible as long as I could remember... but my frugal ways kept me from doing so... After his young death, I did alot of things I'd always wanted to do... buy a convertible, dance ballet on pointe, start a company... But it sucked BIG TIME to have some people think I was just out blowing my fiancee's cash... When I bought a motorcycle a few months ago... same thing. Someone asked me if it was a 'gift'. Ridiculous.
xxoo Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Obscenely expensive handbags and shoes are also geared towards women. I am not saying every woman should choose it but there are women who genuinely do prefer being a stay at home mom and that is their right. I do think that stay at home moms deserve more respect and recognition though. I don't know about their "right" to stay home, because ultimately the parents have a responsibility to support the children and that sometimes means the mother MUST work.... But I do agree that it should be a choice. I am very grateful for the feminist movement that provided CHOICE for women. Personally, I chose to stay home with my young children. But I am deeply grateful that was a choice for me, and not my only option. And I am grateful that other mothers can make different choices. Real women are individuals! We do not fit neatly into a "woman" box.
joystickd Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 I will just give my thoughts on real women. 1. Real women don't look like skinny models. I like me a woman that is not ashamed to eat. You like junk food eat it with me. 2. Real women have respect for themselves. Its a crazy to see a woman on a internet profile with a pic of her with a thong on then is mad because every comment is something sexual. I will say my biggest turn on is a woman in business attire. I have a fantasy where I have a female boss and she has her way with me sexually. She is leading that interaction 3. Real women aren't afraid to challenge me. Dumb women are a turnoff. 4. My biggest thing is real women are honest
Metis Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 if you don't want marriage and children then don't have them. that in no way reflects on men whatsoever. it is entirely your choice. Same works for men. If you don't want marriage and children, then don't have them. If you can't handle the responsibility of being a partner and a father, then don't become one. It's entirely your choice. and sorry, but women don't want men to sacrifice career for family. women who want children and marriage want men that can provide money for all of the things that marriage entails.Not true. Women want different things. Some women want providers. Other women -- and they are easily the majority -- want partners who will contribute more than just paying the bills. And -- most women work outside the home, so most men don't actually provide money for "all the things that marriage entails". If women being individuals and wanting different things is troubling to you, that's entirely your problem. so in summary, no, it is not the fault of men that women don't know what they want. but nice try.In summary, it's not the fault of women if certain men have a problem with what individual women want and go into full-blown denial. But nice try.
thatone Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Same works for men. If you don't want marriage and children, then don't have them. If you can't handle the responsibility of being a partner and a father, then don't become one. It's entirely your choice. men aren't the ones who go crazy in their mid 30s if they don't have a wedding and baby. Not true. Women want different things. Some women want providers. Other women -- and they are easily the majority -- want partners who will contribute more than just paying the bills. And -- most women work outside the home, so most men don't actually provide money for "all the things that marriage entails". If women being individuals and wanting different things is troubling to you, that's entirely your problem. and most women work outside the home because no one, regardless of whether they are male or female, earns enough to provide for more than two people anymore. it's an economic issue, not a social one. but by all means, feel free to ask a thousand married women if they would be for their husbands working less, earning less, and staying home more. see what they say. the vast majority of them will agree with me, the vast majority of the ones who don't are delusional. when the reality sets in of them having to live on less than they've gotten used to they'll be the ones to check out of a marriage. you see, as men, we don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting for someone to come provide for us and change their life based on our whims, all the while debating whether the handful who attempt the task are close enough to our view of perfection. as a bad comedian once said, our choices are work and penitentiary. In summary, it's not the fault of women if certain men have a problem with what individual women want and go into full-blown denial. But nice try. you're projecting, and again nice try. i hate to shatter your perfect world view but it is not the job of men to give 'individual' in your words, women what they want. in fact, it doesn't take men very long at all after they start dating in their teens/20s to realize that giving even the most driven and confident women the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they know what they want from a relationship is the most consistent way to cause women to lose attraction to you. because....drumroll....they don't know what they want. Edited November 10, 2011 by thatone
dasein Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 My opinion is that: The wage gap is a lie. The glass ceiling is a lie. The patriarchy is a lie. That women are socially pressured to have children is a lie. That there is any double standard in how men and women are judged for their sexual behavior is a lie. Real women don't lie.
thatone Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 My opinion is that: The wage gap is a lie. The glass ceiling is a lie. The patriarchy is a lie. That women are socially pressured to have children is a lie. That there is any double standard in how men and women are judged for their sexual behavior is a lie. Real women don't lie. you forgot the most important lie of all... the notion that women can have independence, career, husband, kids all at the same time is a lie. part of being an adult is making decisions and living with the consequences. part of being a spoiled child is sitting around bitter thinking that you're owed your fantasy life.
thatone Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) That was interesting, wasn't it? I wonder if he is still in 'agony'... I'm tempted to post a thread about that weird exchange. Seems like a perfect example of PUA gone wrong and about NOLA... wish I could!! Has been years since I've been there and (like Boston, Seattle, Austin, Paris, France... Amsterdam, Holland) are right up there with my favorite cities ever... I''m saving my pennies for a conference in DC hosted by the Department of Energy. Bill Gates is the keynote speaker. Need to do some hardcore elbow rubbing and schmoozing... I'm looking forward to hearing about your transition back home. I'm still stuck in this burg for now. Looks like the married man who suggested we have sex in his office might win the election after all... He's ahead by only 77 votes though. Crossing my fingers for a miscount. (sorry for the hi-jack folks... back to our regularly scheduled programming!!) i'm gonna miss one of those actually, james carville is gonna be at a small university here in little rock next week, but i'm gonna be gone back home to NOLA for my nephew's wedding. he's on the short list of people i'd like to sit around and BS with for hours at a time. the closing on that store we're selling is tomorrow, we're supposed to get the wire transfer monday, so with cash reloaded i'm about to have a small army of high dollar contractors in this old house to get things wrapped up. i'll send you some pics when it's done, and i'll call you about that millwork shop up there sometime next week regarding the windows, i'm gonna have to take some measurements and draw up the plans to see how they'll work first. added side note, speaking of faster trips to NOLA, i've zeroed in on my next expensive hobby to replace working on this old house. i'm going to fly a plane on friday. planning on getting a pilot license. we'll see how that goes. if i crash you can have my stuff Edited November 10, 2011 by thatone
xxoo Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 the notion that women can have independence, career, husband, kids all at the same time is a lie. It seems the many men had that for most of history (did what he wanted, and wife had no power to do anything about it). But I agree that women can not have it all at the same time, and attempting to have it all is a source of great frustration for many modern women. Something's got to give.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 i'm gonna miss one of those actually, james carville is gonna be at a small university here in little rock next week, but i'm gonna be gone back home to NOLA for my nephew's wedding. he's on the short list of people i'd like to sit around and BS with for hours at a time. the closing on that store we're selling is tomorrow, we're supposed to get the wire transfer monday, so with cash reloaded i'm about to have a small army of high dollar contractors in this old house to get things wrapped up. i'll send you some pics when it's done, and i'll call you about that millwork shop up there sometime next week regarding the windows, i'm gonna have to take some measurements and draw up the plans to see how they'll work first. added side note, speaking of faster trips to NOLA, i've zeroed in on my next expensive hobby to replace working on this old house. i'm going to fly a plane on friday. planning on getting a pilot license. we'll see how that goes. if i crash you can have my stuff Getting a pilot's license is an awesome idea... I've got that on my bucket list as well. One of my best friends is a pilot and he regularly hops over to Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard for the weekend. He shares ownership and maintenance duties for a small Cessna... I highly recommend that (joint ownership of a plane). He's married though. Darnit. Another one who jokes about doing the horizontal mambo with me (brat!! although, I think he's just trying to flatter me. I don't take it seriously) Yea, give me a call about the window shop. And about crashing... Wanna put that in writing?? ha ha You can 'will' all of your tools to me... and maybe a few of those antiques. Keep the house (as beautiful as it is!). I've got enough 'homemoanership' headaches You better not crash though!! I'd much prefer getting a stash of tools and furniture the good 'old fashioned way. Buying them myself or 'tricking and manipulating' a man into spending his life with me (ha ha) Good luck with the flying!! Sounds like a blast!
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 My opinion is that: The wage gap is a lie. The glass ceiling is a lie. The patriarchy is a lie. That women are socially pressured to have children is a lie. That there is any double standard in how men and women are judged for their sexual behavior is a lie. Real women don't lie. Men being harmed by feminism is a lie Men's social condition is over and above due to the choices of their fellow men. Who drafts them into war, who sends their jobs overseas, who raises our taxes, who obliges them to work in substandard conditions... and on and on. Women are (usually) just the ones expected to clean up the messes men make... and look good doing it... Sorry. We can't all be your mommies and make life nice and warm for you. Many women do try though. We are 'victims' of the same messed up decisions some of your fellow men make just as you are.
ThsAmericanLife Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 ... LS troll profile #49 Have you chosen your favorite toy troll personae yet? Is it bondage troll... rainbow hair colored love barrette troll... Maybe there is another? Any progress on that oral sex instructional video yet? Come on! Real women wanna know!
Eclypse Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 A real woman will love me as much as I love her. One thing I dislike is people stating that being really thin doesn't make you a real woman. My girlfriend weighs less than 90 pounds. What does that make her?
thatone Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Getting a pilot's license is an awesome idea... I've got that on my bucket list as well. One of my best friends is a pilot and he regularly hops over to Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard for the weekend. He shares ownership and maintenance duties for a small Cessna... I highly recommend that (joint ownership of a plane). He's married though. Darnit. Another one who jokes about doing the horizontal mambo with me (brat!! although, I think he's just trying to flatter me. I don't take it seriously) Yea, give me a call about the window shop. And about crashing... Wanna put that in writing?? ha ha You can 'will' all of your tools to me... and maybe a few of those antiques. Keep the house (as beautiful as it is!). I've got enough 'homemoanership' headaches You better not crash though!! I'd much prefer getting a stash of tools and furniture the good 'old fashioned way. Buying them myself or 'tricking and manipulating' a man into spending his life with me (ha ha) Good luck with the flying!! Sounds like a blast! he's only joking until you say yes . just think, you could be the blonde girl he stuffs in the closet when his wife walks in just like in the movie! i'm still debating on what to do with the tools. honestly, as little as they're worth used in relation to the house i'll probably throw them in with the sale if it sweetens up a buyer. if not, i'll probably sell them for their scrap value to get rid of them quickly. the only thing i hate to get rid of is a saw i came across made in the late 40s. it's a great little machine, the original motor even still works like a champ. http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=700 all of the cast parts are a magnesium alloy, to make it "lightweight" in their words (yeah, only 300 pounds...). upside is it will last forever and never rust, downside...i'm guessing you should run fast if you ever spark anything around it, i got a big picture in my head of it exploding in a shower of shrapnel due to a fire. it's the best small radial arm/miter saw ever made, imo. i really want that to go to someone who'll use it and maintain it. the company that made them has been gone since the early 50s. it would be perfect for someone doing picture frames or some such (or in my case, someone building window/door frames).
dasein Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 you forgot the most important lie of all... the notion that women can have independence, career, husband, kids all at the same time is a lie. part of being an adult is making decisions and living with the consequences. part of being a spoiled child is sitting around bitter thinking that you're owed your fantasy life. Great point: "You can have it all" is a lie.
dasein Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 It seems the many men had that for most of history (did what he wanted, and wife had no power to do anything about it). Not picking on you specifically, but no one, male or female had any "careers" in history. Work was not some daily place to go, but a matter of do it or starve nearly instantly. Men weren't going off to fulfilling enriching jobs with interesting people, but to dangerous places where they could be killed at any moment. Most men, in addition to whatever they did to earn money, had a second involuntary job of going out on a battlefield and risking being hacked or gored to death. The kitchen and home were the best places to be in a nasty world (but still sucked admittedly LOL), and men willingly gave that position of safety to women. This is a small part of the "lie of male oppression" also.
thatone Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 indeed, and standing on the front line eating a cavalry assault wasn't optional. if you refused they would simply toss you off of your farm and starve you and your family, as only the nobility were allowed to own property. and that wasn't limited to the middle ages, ask my irish ancestors who got right off of the boat in NYC and were greeted by a rifle and a pair of boots, and told they had to fight in civil war of the country they had just arrived in.
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