Non-secret As

[MissBee]

On several occasions the idea of the non-secret A has been brought up here on LS.

 

My knowledge of As, truthfully, is that they are secret and even if people "kind of know" it is still perpetuated on a "don't ask, don't tell", hush-hush, turn-a-blind-eye basis and not that it's open for discussion and flaunting to all who ask.

 

What is the definition of a non-secret A? What is not a secret? Who knows? How does it differ from what I'd call, "the classic secret A"?

 

How many people here have been in a non-secret A or know people in non-secret As?

 

Should a non-secret A even be called an A? What is the definition of an A anyway?

[woinlove]

On several occasions the idea of the non-secret A has been brought up here on LS.

 

My knowledge of As, truthfully, is that they are secret and even if people "kind of know" it is still perpetuated on a "don't ask, don't tell", hush-hush, turn-a-blind-eye basis and not that it's open for discussion and flaunting to all who ask.

 

What is the definition of a non-secret A? What is not a secret? Who knows? How does it differ from what I'd call, "the classic secret A"?

 

How many people here have been in a non-secret A or know people in non-secret As?

 

Should a non-secret A even be called an A? What is the definition of an A anyway?

 

People who are separated sometimes have completely open R's, not hidden from anyone. I've seen such people both divorce and reconcile with their spouse. Separated can mean a lot of different things and perhaps if the R is out in the open, not hidden, there is no reason to call it an A.

[donnamaybe]

One recent exchange I had about this in another thread involves omission of the truth. That is still lying and secrecy in my world. Anything else would be an open M as far as I'm concerned.

[MissBee]

People who are separated sometimes have completely open R's, not hidden from anyone. I've seen such people both divorce and reconcile with their spouse. Separated can mean a lot of different things and perhaps if the R is out in the open, not hidden, there is no reason to call it an A.

 

I agree with that....

 

A friend of mine, with whom I became friends recently, has been dating a separated man for 3 years. He is going through the official divorce process now, but was separated, living on his own from his wife for 3 years before they got together. There relationship isn't an A to me, or to anyone else, as he and the wife are truly only legally married but do not share a life. They do not live together, his kids are adults who know my friend and who know their parents are separated, the family members know and her family knows. Some people of course still didn't like the situation, and I personally don't know if I'd date a separated man...but the point is: there is no deceit and all parties are fully aware and not only aware, but agreed to their positions.

 

It's not an A, in my opinion, because there is no secrecy, there is no omission of truth, no presenting of a false image, no hush-hush, no turning a blind eye etc by ANY of the parties. It seems those describing open As, sometimes discuss a spouse knowing but being in denial...I still find that to be an A then. In this case, there is no one who is caught in a situation they didn't agree to...the wife and he agreed to have their own lives...hence, whatever he does and with whom is not her business and he has no reason to lie to her or she him. In these other As, the wife turning a blind eye was often not in agreement from the beginning but has been forced into that position.

[Silly_Girl]

People who are separated sometimes have completely open R's, not hidden from anyone. I've seen such people both divorce and reconcile with their spouse. Separated can mean a lot of different things and perhaps if the R is out in the open, not hidden, there is no reason to call it an A.

 

Folk of a particular mindset here on LS like to call my relationship an affair, which gives me a chuckle. There is nothing hidden and he has zero obligations elsewhere; my, his, and her friends and family members all know we are the couple and their relationship has ended and they've lived apart for some time. So at that point ours not an affair, although I think his stbxw is still in one.

 

As I've said elsewhere, I would call it an affair if the spouse does not have the blessing or acceptance of their wife/husband to have the extra-marital relationship, and there is still a relationship of sorts continuing in the marriage.

 

After Dday if the WS continues to keep the AP in their life, but the marriage does not ostensibly change, and their spouse wishes to reconcile, I would call that an affair with the knowledge of the spouse. A non-secret affair. Not an open marriage.

 

I have struggled to think of a situation, however, where it is a non-secret affair from the off, but not an open marriage. I guess I think relations without the knowledge of the spouse must have happened at some point.

[Anna101]

There is no way I'd consider my relationship to be an affair *now*. We live together, he's in the middle of divorce proceedings, we have a child and both sides of our familly visit us and accept us as a couple.

 

IMO I can't imagine anyone calling a relationship with someone separated, as an affair?!

[MissBee]

I have heard on LS of As in which everyone under the sun knows and the couple is open, but the BS is the only one in the dark. I find that unfathomable...but I suppose some would say that is a non-secret A....

 

But I imagine a BS is central to an A and the most important person that if it's hidden from, classifies it as an A and also a secret A. Except now, not only are the OW/OM and the WS the ones lying but everyone else in the BS's life is lying too. As if they're not bringing up this relationship either and are essentially hiding it...it's still a secret-A....just with more people "in on it".

Edited November 14, 2011 by MissBee

[Spark1111]

On several occasions the idea of the non-secret A has been brought up here on LS.

 

My knowledge of As, truthfully, is that they are secret and even if people "kind of know" it is still perpetuated on a "don't ask, don't tell", hush-hush, turn-a-blind-eye basis and not that it's open for discussion and flaunting to all who ask.

 

What is the definition of a non-secret A? What is not a secret? Who knows? How does it differ from what I'd call, "the classic secret A"?

 

How many people here have been in a non-secret A or know people in non-secret As?

 

Should a non-secret A even be called an A? What is the definition of an A anyway?

 

I think the non-secret affair could refer to those rare exit affairs, where the marriage is already dead or dying and one of the partners has met someone and begins to introduce them to family and friends before or while they are going through the official divorce process.

 

That is about 3% of all affairs and they are the ones we all know about.

 

It wasn't kept secret from their friends or family or their children of their spouse, (though some details would not be shared with the spouse out of respect.)

 

The reason it is not secret is because family and friends and colleagues are genuinely happy for the person as the assessment by all was that the marriage had been a real dead dog for a long time.

 

People are happy for the person, not appalled or shocked or saddened. They usually welcome the new person with open arms and hope the stbxs finds someone too.

[MissBee]

I think the non-secret affair could refer to those rare exit affairs, where the marriage is already dead or dying and one of the partners has met someone and begins to introduce them to family and friends before or while they are going through the official divorce process.

 

That is about 3% of all affairs and they are the ones we all know about.

 

It wasn't kept secret from their friends or family or their children of their spouse, (though some details would not be shared with the spouse out of respect.)

 

The reason it is not secret is because family and friends and colleagues are genuinely happy for the person as the assessment by all was that the marriage had been a real dead dog for a long time.

 

People are happy for the person, not appalled or shocked or saddened. They usually welcome the new person with open arms and hope the stbxs finds someone too.

 

Do people really call those relationships As though?

 

While you're going through a divorce and seeing someone else, are you really in an A?

 

I wouldn't say so...I'd say an A is only an A when there is any pretense or it has not been clear that the marriage is over and that the parties are expected to move on with their lives, even if a divorce isn't yet final.

[SoMovinOn]

I suppose I use the term "Affair" loosely, to mean "Dating someone who is married"

 

My first A, her H encouraged me to get involved with her (his W). He was dating other women and he realized if I kept his W busy, she wouldn't bother him about where he was or who he was with. Everyone knew about everything, and we all hung out and worked together (we were all involved in a business together). When I got M to my first W, she got involved with the group as well.

 

Speaking of my first W, she was Bi. She would bring girls home. Sometimes, they'd move in with us for a while. Sometimes all 3 of us would be involved, sometimes it was me with one or the other.

 

Later in our M, all that ended. I still dated on occasion, but never kept it a secret from my W. She didn't like it, but, I never lied to her about it.

 

Let's see... the next one would have been my friend's W. She wanted things he didn't want to do. I told him I'd gladly take care of her. I did. He knew.

 

The next one was at the same time that was going on. She was a MW I ran into in the course of business regularly (trade shows). Her H was the CEO of some large company and traveled a lot. She was very comfortable with doing whatever she needed to do for herself while he was gone. I didn't know he knew until I traveled to her home city to take care of some things at her office. She stayed with me for a couple of days and nights. He was home. I asked her where he thought she was. She said "With you."

 

Finally, while those two were going on, I started dating my W. She worked with me (at my office). I didn't know if her H knew or not, until he stopped by the office to ask me if I'd stop dating her. I told him I wasn't his problem - that if she wasn't dating me, she be dating someone else - that he needed to talk to her about it. They split up a few months later, got D.

 

So that would be... I don't know, at least a dozen or so non-secret A's that I have personally been involved in. I personally know people who were involved in countless others. In my experience, it's been the secret A's that were rare.

 

My current A with my GF is the only secret A I've been involved in.

[MissBee]

I suppose I use the term "Affair" loosely, to mean "Dating someone who is married"

 

My first A, her H encouraged me to get involved with her (his W). He was dating other women and he realized if I kept his W busy, she wouldn't bother him about where he was or who he was with.Everyone knew about everything, and we all hung out and worked together (we were all involved in a business together). When I got M to my first W, she got involved with the group as well.

Speaking of my first W, she was Bi. She would bring girls home. Sometimes, they'd move in with us for a while. Sometimes all 3 of us would be involved, sometimes it was me with one or the other.

 

Later in our M, all that ended. I still dated on occasion, but never kept it a secret from my W. She didn't like it, but, I never lied to her about it.

Let's see... the next one would have been my friend's W. She wanted things he didn't want to do. I told him I'd gladly take care of her. I did. He knew.

 

The next one was at the same time that was going on. She was a MW I ran into in the course of business regularly (trade shows). Her H was the CEO of some large company and traveled a lot. She was very comfortable with doing whatever she needed to do for herself while he was gone. I didn't know he knew until I traveled to her home city to take care of some things at her office. She stayed with me for a couple of days and nights. He was home. I asked her where he thought she was. She said "With you."

Finally, while those two were going on, I started dating my W. She worked with me (at my office). I didn't know if her H knew or not, until he stopped by the office to ask me if I'd stop dating her. I told him I wasn't his problem - that if she wasn't dating me, she be dating someone else - that he needed to talk to her about it. They split up a few months later, got D.

 

So that would be... I don't know, at least a dozen or so non-secret A's that I have personally been involved in. I personally know people who were involved in countless others. In my experience, it's been the secret A's that were rare.

 

My current A with my GF is the only secret A I've been involved in.

 

You have to know that all of what you've described is not the norm right? Henceforth, your take on As will probably not be the norm either. However, realizing where one stands on the scale of what is the norm in one's society and then talking about one's own life with regards to that mean is necessary. The problem is when one ignores the peculiarities of one's life in comparison to the mean in the society and try to argue for them as what is common.

 

 

What you're describing sounds very much like swingers type scenarios and not what most people consider as As.

 

This is a serious question: all that you have described...when you compare it to society by and large, do you feel that your lifestyle and experiences are in the majority?

Edited November 14, 2011 by MissBee

[Emme]

Non-secret affairs to me is knowing that one partner is cheating. Regardless of that they still love each other and are both accepting of it. Possibly it’s they can no longer please there partner or the magic is gone. They won’t divorce because they don’t believe in it. I know a guy that cheats on his wife and she knows. He even has an apartment and she knows. She will not divorce him because she loves her husband. I don’t know if someone is waiting for the other to die. Who knows!

[SoMovinOn]

You have to know that all of what you've described is not the norm right?

 

The early stuff, back in the 70's and 80's were definitely the norm back then. It seemed everyone was having sex with everyone else. Any parties I went to always seemed to end up with everyone naked and doing everyone else.

 

Definitely not the norm these days. All that died when AIDS became a big thing.

 

Henceforth, your take on As will probably not be the norm either.

 

I would bet my take on most things is not the norm.

 

However, realizing where one stands on the scale of what is the norm in one's society and then talking about one's own life with regards to that mean is necessary. The problem is when one ignores the peculiarities of one's life in comparison to the mean in the society and try to argue for them as what is common.

 

Agreed, although, sometimes, I am arguing that being the norm or being common doesn't make it "right". I am arguing exactly from the point of saying perhaps people need to learn to look at things differently, rather than just accepting the norm.

 

What you're describing sounds very much like swingers type scenarios and not what most people consider as As.

 

The early stuff... most assuredly.

 

This is a serious question: all that you have described...when you compare it to society by and large, do you feel that your lifestyle and experiences are in the majority?

 

No.

 

But then, I don't know. I don't talk about sex in business relationships. Those people most likely best represent "society by and large". The people I am friends with or hang out with generally better represent the "outcasts" of society. Although, I have learned that the "outcasts" are simply open about who they are and what they do. I find when I talk to someone "straight" and they open up a bit, many (most?) people have some very interesting secrets they keep.

 

How many business men go to a dominatrix, a strip club or a massage parlor on the lunch hour? It would seem quite a few.

 

So... although my answer is "No." ... I am not so sure that is correct. My personal experience makes me question that, but then, maybe I just attract people who are like me. I suspect though, "society by and large" is not anywhere near as straight laced as "they" would like us to believe.

[carhill]

My data point is a disclosed infidelity where the betrayed spouse does not accept the dynamic but does not immediately and proactively take action to end the marriage. In our case, it (D) happened eventually, after over a year, but the clear demarcation between the dynamic and what an 'open' marriage would be was lack of acceptance of the dynamic as healthy.

[Radagast]

On several occasions the idea of the non-secret A has been brought up here on LS.

 

My knowledge of As, truthfully, is that they are secret and even if people "kind of know" it is still perpetuated on a "don't ask, don't tell", hush-hush, turn-a-blind-eye basis and not that it's open for discussion and flaunting to all who ask.

 

What is the definition of a non-secret A? What is not a secret? Who knows? How does it differ from what I'd call, "the classic secret A"?

 

How many people here have been in a non-secret A or know people in non-secret As?

 

Should a non-secret A even be called an A? What is the definition of an A anyway?

 

My A was not a secret. I told my wife-at-the-time that I had fallen in love with someone else. She chose not to believe me. I told her I wanted to be with my new love and planned on leaving her (my wife-at-the-time) as soon as was feasible. She chose not to believe that.

 

I had served notice on the marriage and considered it over. She did not. She did not approve, nor gave "permission" for the relationship. It was not an "open marriage".

[jwi71]

On several occasions the idea of the non-secret A has been brought up here on LS.

 

My knowledge of As, truthfully, is that they are secret and even if people "kind of know" it is still perpetuated on a "don't ask, don't tell", hush-hush, turn-a-blind-eye basis and not that it's open for discussion and flaunting to all who ask.

 

What is the definition of a non-secret A? What is not a secret? Who knows? How does it differ from what I'd call, "the classic secret A"?

 

How many people here have been in a non-secret A or know people in non-secret As?

 

Should a non-secret A even be called an A? What is the definition of an A anyway?

 

There is no such thing as a "non-secret A". If it isn't a secret then all involved know. That's an open M. Entirely different beast.

 

However, you are likely referring to situation where "everyone knows" EXCEPT the BS. That, is of course, an A because an involved party does NOT know.

What you have is a silent conspiracy there - "everyone knows" (pssst, except the BS and don't actually TELL the BS...just assume she 'must' know).

[MissBee]

There is no such thing as a "non-secret A". If it isn't a secret then all involved know. That's an open M. Entirely different beast.

 

However, you are likely referring to situation where "everyone knows" EXCEPT the BS. That, is of course, an A because an involved party does NOT know.

What you have is a silent conspiracy there - "everyone knows" (pssst, except the BS and don't actually TELL the BS...just assume she 'must' know).

 

I concur! I expressed the exact same sentiments earlier in the thread (about everyone knowing except the BS and how such a situation is still a secret A, as the key figure, the BS, is not in on it...you've used the right words: it's now a conspiracy!)

[donnamaybe]

My A was not a secret. I told my wife-at-the-time that I had fallen in love with someone else. She chose not to believe me. I told her I wanted to be with my new love and planned on leaving her (my wife-at-the-time) as soon as was feasible. She chose not to believe that.

 

I had served notice on the marriage and considered it over. She did not. She did not approve, nor gave "permission" for the relationship. It was not an "open marriage".

So you met this woman, fell instantly in love, and went home that day and told your W? Or was there an attraction that was fed through meetings and dates on the sly AND THEN you told your W?

[Silly_Girl]

There is no such thing as a "non-secret A". If it isn't a secret then all involved know. That's an open M. Entirely different beast.

 

Don't agree with this. For me Open Marriage indicates willing participation to those rules by both spouses.

[findingnemo]

An A to me is a R outside of M which is not known to and agreed upon by the WS' spouse.

 

So a non-secret A would be one which the BS knows about but doesn't accept it. There are two ways the BS can show non-acceptance. Either demand an end to the A And stay M for a short time thereafter or ignore that there is another person.

 

A R where the BS knows and agrees (verbally) to the existence of an AP is for all intents and purposes an open M. The couples I know in open Ms did not sign a contract or sit down in formal negotiations. The BS just doesn't talk about the other person and doesn't ask too many questions about time spent away from home. Some BS' argue that they haven't given their WS the permission to see the AP but actions are louder than words. It is reasonable to say a BS stayed M for a year while trying to salvage the M. But when an A goes on for years and the BS doesn't leave, he/she has given the WS permission by default.

 

Non-As are therefore quite common if you take into account the BS's who live in denial. Open Ms are less common primarily because people don't like to admit that their M is non-traditional.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

Non-As are therefore quite common if you take into account the BS's who live in denial. Open Ms are less common primarily because people don't like to admit that their M is non-traditional.

 

Certainly, IME.

[woinlove]

Don't agree with this. For me Open Marriage indicates willing participation to those rules by both spouses.

 

How else is one open and honest with their spouse about their other involvements and yet stays married?

 

Are you talking about a WS who forces the BS to stay married against their will? Or are you talking about situations of separation where the divorce isn't final yet, but the BS isn't willing to stay married. If a WS is open and honest about their affair and the BS stays married under that condition, I would say that is willing participation (excluding the time to divorce or illegal force/control.)

 

I think you may be suggesting the type of marriage Kennedy may have had, for example. Jackie certainly knew of some affairs and chose to remain married. However, I suspect Kennedy did plenty of lying. When one spouse wants monogamy and the other spouse doesn't and both want to stay married, typically there is plenty of lying going on even if the BS gets wind of some things. Those affairs still involve deception. I think if a spouse is open and honest with their partner about their other Rs and the two stay married, one might as well call it an open M. I doubt Kennedy had an open M and I doubt it was all honesty.

[MissBee]

How else is one open and honest with their spouse about their other involvements and yet stays married?

 

Are you talking about a WS who forces the BS to stay married against their will? Or are you talking about situations of separation where the divorce isn't final yet, but the BS isn't willing to stay married. If a WS is open and honest about their affair and the BS stays married under that condition, I would say that is willing participation (excluding the time to divorce or illegal force/control.)

 

I think you may be suggesting the type of marriage Kennedy may have had, for example. Jackie certainly knew of some affairs and chose to remain married. However, I suspect Kennedy did plenty of lying. When one spouse wants monogamy and the other spouse doesn't and both want to stay married, typically there is plenty of lying going on even if the BS gets wind of some things. Those affairs still involve deception. I think if a spouse is open and honest with their partner about their other Rs and the two stay married, one might as well call it an open M. I doubt Kennedy had an open M and I doubt it was all honesty.

 

 

I have to agree.

 

If someone tells you frankly they are seeing another, firstly, what is that person's expectation of you? What response would they like? I assume most would only do that when a divorce is about to be on the table, a separation or agreement to either live separate lives now or discuss an open marriage. Who admits to seeing another but continues to be married without plans of leaving? What purpose would that serve?

 

If you admit to an exit affair and say you're going to continue it (because you're planning to leave anyway) I'd call that a non-secret A, after that point. If your spouse finds out about your affair, you admit it, but don't want a divorce and therefore downplay it or keep up some pretenses, and this person is in denial aided by your pretenses, then it is still a secret/deceptive situation.I do agree that if one is still trying to stay married that deception is most likely involved (as most people are just not that brazen) and if no more deception is involved and you're still married...it's an open M now.

 

My dad has had MANY cheating scandals over the years and I figure my mom HAS to know when he's doing it, for the very fact that he's done it so many times! I too have wondered if she just turns a blind eye, she perhaps does...but nevertheless, her turning a blind eye is not the same as it not being a secret. My dad still is going to say he is going to X place when he really means something else, he's going to still sneak around, he's going to lie, he's going to deny etc. He doesn't say see you later, going with my OW now. If he did, and my mom agreed or pretended not to hear...then sorry, but it is not a secret and she is complicit. But that's not what happens and I think in most cases where the spouse makes it a habit or there is "wind" of it....there is still putting up pretenses by the WS so they can stay married. It is harder to keep up denial in the face of transparency....that's just a fact. Even in my A, as the OW, the less I was aware of, the more I could keep up the situation, the more he shared about reality, the less I could. So even in denial, most times, you're given or not given information so as to make it easier to believe what you want to believe or what they want you to believe.

 

Also...other elements make it a secret. The BS not knowing is the biggest, but if the BS allegedly knows but nobody else knows, then it's still a secret relationship to that end. Example, even if my mom suspected cheating, even if for example she turned a blind eye....I've never met ANY of these women, my family doesn't know them, he surely doesn't admit it to his church friends, probably to no one really. Soooo that relationship for all intents and purposes doesn't exist to many important people in his life.

Edited November 15, 2011 by MissBee

[donnamaybe]

Also...other elements make it a secret. The BS not knowing is the biggest, but if the BS allegedly knows but nobody else knows, then it's still a secret relationship to that end. Example, even if my mom suspected cheating, even if for example she turned a blind eye....I've never met ANY of these women, my family doesn't know them, he surely doesn't admit it to his church friends, probably to no one really. Soooo that relationship for all intents and purposes doesn't exist to many important people in his life.

Yup. Once all parties are aware and accept the A, whether begrudgingly or not - whether they tell the rest of the community or not - it is an open M. Not everyone who opens up their M tells anyone but those participating.

[MissBee]

Yup. Once all parties are aware and accept the A, whether begrudgingly or not - whether they tell the rest of the community or not - it is an open M. Not everyone who opens up their M tells anyone but those participating.

 

I think that's a succinct definition.

 

Also, how would an OW/OM feel who is inlove with the MP, and the spouse knows but the BS for whatever reason decides to "not care", the MP is not getting divorced, or is waiting till the kids go to college, and for that end the BS requires that the MP still needs to keep up appearances and do what he/she is dong, just not broadcast it to all and sundry, especially not the circle they've developed as a couple...i..e mostly everyone they both know. That's not a secret to the BS and is not a classic A, as now there is an agreement. But for the OP...they are still a secret and it is still an A for them as their married bf/gf is with them with their spouse's begrudging consent but that's about all who know about it and you still can't behave like a regular couple and still have this person ( the BS) with more power than you in the dynamic controlling what happens....

 

As in such a case, a BS who knows, accepts but decides the terms of how the spouse is going to conduct this EMR is the one I guess pulling the strings...

 

In any case that entire situation is a mess to me. But I can see that being one of the permutations, particularly in cases where power, appearances and prestige are on the line.